Deep Waters: Lehi’s model of the universe


I thought that I would do something new with this post. I will quote scriptures, ask questions about them and give answers according to my understanding. Hopefully, you will be able to follow my logic. 2 Nephi 2: 5-14 is my scriptural text. (I am publishing this article as a result of three comments I posted on another blog, which were met with confusion and disbelief. You may read the comments here: 1, 2 & 3.)

1) And the law is given unto men. (2 Ne. 2: 5)

1) QWhat law? A-The law that is given unto men (not necessarily the one that is received by them.) QGiven by whom? A-“The law which the Holy One hath given.” (See 2 Ne. 2: 10.)

2) And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. (2 Ne. 2: 5)

2) QWhat does Lehi mean by “flesh?” A-He means mortality, or any mortal creation. QWhat does Lehi mean by “justified?” A-He means guiltless. QFrom what are men cut off? A-From the presence of the Lord (see v. 8), from that which is good (see v. 5), from things pertaining to righteousness (see Alma 12: 16, etc.)

3) Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever. (2 Ne. 2: 5)

3) QWhat is the temporal law? A-The laws of physics given by God to all mortal creations, which ultimately lead to the physical death of all flesh. QWhat is the spiritual law? A-The spiritual laws of God, which ultimately lead to the spiritual death of all flesh. QWhat does it mean to be cut off by the temporal law? A-To die a physical death (separation of the spirit body from the physical body), which, if not overcome, results in us becoming devils and being cast into outer darkness. (See 2 Ne. 9: 9.) QWhat does it mean to “perish from that which is good” by the spiritual law? A-To become devils and be expelled into outer darkness (separation from the presence of God.) In other words, the end result of both the temporal and spiritual law, if not overcome, is the second death: expulsion into outer darkness.

4) Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth. (2 Ne. 2: 6)

4) QWhat does “redemption cometh in…the Holy Messiah” mean? A-It means the resurrection from the dead, which is free and requires nothing of us to receive it. (It is unconditional.) QWhat does “redemption cometh…through the Holy Messiah” mean? A-It means forgiveness of sin, which is given on condition of repentance. QHow is the Holy Messiah full of grace? A-He is full of grace in that he forgives sin. QHow is the Holy Messiah full of truth? A-He is full of truth in that he causes the resurrection to happen. QWho is the Holy Messiah? A-He is Jesus Christ.

5) Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered. (2 Ne. 2: 7)

5) QWhat are “the ends of the law?” Why does Lehi say “ends” plural and not “end” singular? A-The expression “ends of the law” refers to the bounds (D&C 88: 38 ) or limits of the law, the law itself proceeding “forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space” (D&C 88: 12) and being in the shape of a sphere (D&C 93: 30). There is not one “end” of the law, only “ends” because every point from the center of the sphere to the perimeter in any direction is one of the infinite “ends of the law.” The law, being the power of God, governs, gives light and gives life to the entire created universe which resides within its bounds, or “ends,” God himself being “in the midst of all things” (D&C 88:13) or, in other words, residing in the center of the sphere (the most holy place or the holy of holies.) QWhat does Lehi mean by “answer the ends of the law?” A-He means the answer or solution to the problem at hand, namely, that no flesh is justified by the law, therefore, all flesh must inevitably be expelled from, or placed outside of, the law (the sphere), in other words, they must be removed to “the ends of the law.” At the ends of the law is where the lake of fire and brimstone is located, and beyond that is outer darkness. As the sphere is a sphere of light, outside of that sphere is darkness, hence the name, “outer darkness,” in contrast or opposition to the sphere of inner light. The question is, essentially, “What can be done for all these creatures that they may not have to return (D&C 88: 32) to the lake of fire and brimstone and outer darkness from whence they originally came? How can they remain in the kingdom of light (glory) which God has created?” The answer is the atonement of Jesus Christ. QWhat happens to those who do not “have a broken heart and a contrite spirit,” unto whom the ends of the law cannot be answered? A-They return to the lake of fire and brimstone, to be delivered to the darkness which exists outside of the sphere of light. This is known as the second death.

6) Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise. (2 Ne. 2: 8 )

7) Wherefore, he is the first fruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved. (2 Ne. 2: 9)

8 ) And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. (2 Ne. 2: 10)

9) Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—for it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. (2 Ne. 2: 10-11)

9) QWhat are “the ends of the atonement?” A-The bounds or limits of the atonement, the scope of which exactly conforms to the bounds and limits of the law, the course of the Lord being “one eternal round” and thus a sphere, like the law. QWhat does Lehi mean by “answer the ends of the atonement?” A-He means the answer or solution to the problem at hand, namely, how to answer the question, “What is to be done to those unrepentant souls who are not claimed by the atonement?” Lehi explains that “the ends of the law” will “answer the ends of the atonement.” In other words, these people will be delivered to the ends of the law (the lake of fire and brimstone) and beyond it to outer darkness. QWhat is the punishment that is affixed to the ends of the law? A-The casting of these souls into the lake of fire and brimstone and outer darkness. QWhat is the happiness that is affixed that is opposite to the punishment that is affixed to the ends of the law? A-It is the innermost location of the light sphere, the most holy place or the holy of holies, where God resides in the midst of his creations (the created universe.) It is the central location of the light sphere, being opposite in all ways to the outermost location, (the ends and outer darkness.) QDoes removing the comma after “for it must needs be” change the meaning of the phrase, “for it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things”? A-Yes. QWhat is a plainer translation of the phrase with the comma? A-“Because it needs to be this way, so that there is an opposition in all things.” QWhat is a plainer translation of the phrase without the comma? A-“Because there needs to be an opposition in all things.” QWhat is the difference between the two phrases, with comma and without comma? A-The phrase with the comma is explaining that the law necessarily is set up so that there is an opposition in all things, in other words, that the law itself is creating the necessary opposition in all things, whereas the phrase without the comma is explaining that an opposition in all things is necessary. (This is where most LDS stumble in the correct interpretation of this scripture. They read it as if there were no comma and thus miss the true meaning of Lehi’s words.)

10) If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. (2 Ne. 2: 11)

10) QWhat does the phrase “if not so” mean? If what is not so? A-If the law was not so. In other words, if the law were not set up to create the opposition in all things (outer darkness-inner light) there would be no opposition in all things. Lehi is explaining that the opposition in all things was created by God. It does not exist naturally. QWhat are the opposite conditions that could not be brought to pass if the law did not create an opposition in all things? A-Righteousness-wickedness; holiness-misery; good-bad.

11) Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. (2 Ne. 2: 11)

11) QWhat does Lehi mean when he says, “Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one?” A-He means that if you take away the creative act of God, in creating the opposition in all things through the law, which is his light and power, the natural state of things is to be “a compound in one,” both spirit and element being joined together as if they were one single substance. This is the state of things as they existed prior to creation. This is the state of things as they exist now in outer darkness, which is outside of the kingdom of God, or the created universe (the sphere of light). This is the state that we were in before God brought us into existence, or better stated, into a state of awareness of our existence, before he split our “compound in one” substance into two opposite materials: spirit matter (that which acts) and element or physical matter (that which is acted upon). QWhat is “it” in the phrase “if it should be one body?” A-It is the compound in one substance. QWhy does Lehi refer to the “compound in one” substance as being “one body?” A-Two reasons: 1st, to contrast it to our own dual natures, as we have both a spirit body and a physical body and, 2nd, to contrast it to our current state of individuality. The compound in one substance literally was as one body, or a single mass of everything that is currently in the sphere of light, which is the kingdom of God. There was no individuality, nor even awareness of individuals, nor of anything else. Everything was the same as everything else, thus, without anything to contrast, it all was as a single body, all of it unaware that it even existed. QWhy does Lehi state that “it must needs remain as dead” when later on he says, “having no life neither death?” Is this a contradiction? A-There is no contradiction. Lehi is explaining that the one body compound in one substance was useless in its compound in one state. It was good for nothing. It served no purpose. It was as dead, meaning it was like a dead thing, totally incapable of usefulness as it was not even aware of its own existence. It was literally “in the dark” as to any possibilities for expansion and progression. It had nothing to contrast anything else with, as there was no light to contrast with its darkness, no separate individuals to contrast with its singular, combined substance. With such material, nothing can be accomplished, not life, not death, etc.

12) Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. (2 Ne. 2: 12)

13) Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God. (2 Ne. 2: 12)

12-13) QWhat is the meaning of Lehi’s words as written in verse 12? A-He is saying that if God had created the one body, compound in one substance, it would have been created for nothing, having no utility or serving no useful purpose, at all. Since God cannot create anything without giving it a purpose, a use, had he created such stuff, he would have ceased to be God. Lehi is attempting to explain that as God has not ceased to be God and as this stuff did exist prior to creation and still exists (as this is the material that God uses to expand his kingdom), then this substance is stuff in its natural, untouched or un-created state, that it is co-existent with God and co-eternal, but his complete opposite. (He has all power, it has no power, etc.)

14) And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. (2 Ne. 2: 13)

15) If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. (2 Ne. 2: 13)

16) And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. (2 Ne. 2: 13)

17) And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. (2 Ne. 2: 13)

18 ) And if these things are not there is no God. (2 Ne. 2: 13)

14) QWhy does Lehi begin with the phrase, “And if ye shall say there is no law?” A-Because the opposition in all things is created by the law. Everything hinges on the existence of the law. With the existence of the law, you can then have sin, righteousness, happiness, punishment and misery, in other words, the opposition in all things. If there is no opposition in all things, it means there is no law given by God and if there is no law given by God, then there is no God, as the law is his power.

19) And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

19) QWhat does Lehi mean when he says that “all things must have vanished away” if there is no God? A-He means that God is holding all of creation together, in its created state, by his own power. If God ever loses his power (his honor, see D&C 29: 36), all created things will revert back to their previous, uncreated, one body, compound in one state. In fact, if any of the gods and goddesses (god-dom) ever cease to be a god or goddess, the same result occurs everywhere. This is why Lucifer necessarily demanded the honor of God in his pre-mortal bid to conquer the universe, so that the universe would not revert to its previous state. (See
Deep Waters: What would have happened if Lucifer had won the vote?)

20) And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon. (2 Ne. 2: 14)

20) QLehi says that God created all things. Does that not include the compound in one substance? A-God created all things that are created and all things that are created have purpose. The compound in one substance has no purpose and is in the natural, un-created state. God did not create it. QWhat are the things to act and what are the things to be acted upon? A-When God split the compound in one substance into two materials, one was the fire or spirit, which was given the purpose (by God) to move on its own (that which acts) and the other was the brimstone, or physical element, which was given the purpose (by God) to be moved (that which is acted upon.) The physical element does not move on its own, it must be acted upon, or pushed around, by the spirit matter. This is why living things move around (because the spirit bodies move the physical bodies) but when the living things die, which means that the spirit bodies leave the physical bodies, the physical bodies just lay there, motionless, unless acted upon by other, authorized spirit matter. (Devils can possess living souls, with permission, or power granted, of the living souls, but once a person dies, devils are not authorized to possess the physical body of that dead individual. In other words, the free agent physical body won’t allow itself to be moved by devils, only by spirits whose authority it, the physical body, recognizes.) Both spirit and element are given agency (D&C 93: 31) by God from the get-go. The spirit moves of its own volition and the element moves not, or allows itself to be pushed around, of its own volition. As the Lord has said, “All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence (D&C 93: 30).” Both truth and intelligence (physical element and spirit matter) act for themselves, but truth (element) acts by allowing itself to be pushed around, or acted upon, while intelligence (spirit) acts by doing the pushing. The creation of the opposition in all things happens at the ends of the law, where the lake of fire (spirit) and brimstone (element) burns. If you could float just above the ends or boundary of the light sphere, so that your head pointed to the center of the light sphere and your feet pointed to the edge or ends of the sphere (the ends of the law), you being within the sphere, the ends of the law would appear to be a lake of fire and brimstone. This is the plasma bow shock that divides the outer darkness from the inner light. It is the lake of fire and brimstone that is where the compound in one substance is being converted, or split, into spirit (fire) and element (brimstone.) The flame of this lake “ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end” (2 Ne. 9: 16). The reason is that the lake is in the shape of a sphere, being at the ends of the law, and if you could follow it with your eye, although the sphere is inconceivably big, you would eventually see it curve upward. Also, as the creative act is continual, meaning that more compound in one substance is being split into spirit and element, the sphere is constantly expanding. (See Moses 1: 4, “my works are without end.”)

Final QuestionWhat does this tell us about our own natures? A-It shows us why God is so obsessed with getting everything resurrected with a physical body. The physical aspect is as much a part of our original, un-split, compound in one natures as is the spiritual aspect. We cannot feel complete without it. This is why only spirit and element, inseparably connected, can receive a fulness of joy (D&C 93: 33-34). This is one of the reasons why Satan is miserable forever. The lack of a physical body creates a void. This is why Jacob explained that we would all become devils if there were no resurrection (2 Ne. 9: 9). If there were no resurrection, there would be no hope of ever getting that missing part of us back. As hope is a part of faith, if we lose all hope, we lose all faith, and Satan then would obtain all power over us and we would become devils just like him, as he also has no hope nor faith. This is why the resurrection has so much emphasis in the scriptures.

Next Deep Waters article: Deep Waters: Creatio ex nihilo, creatio ex materia and creatio ex deo are all true doctrines

Previous Deep Waters article: Deep Waters: What would have happened if Lucifer had won the vote?

Complete List of Articles authored by LDS Anarchist

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20 Comments

  1. Addendum: I intentionally left off talking about points 6, 7 and 8 because those points deal with the atonement, which I believe deserves its own series of posts to adequately address it. Also, there were other parts to 2 Ne 2: 5-14 that can also be further expounded upon, which I chose not to because the focus of the article was on Lehi’s model of the universe, and not on specific items of doctrine.

  2. I read the comments you left on the other site and I gotta ask….how could they not understand? You explain your points quite clearly in my opinion, not once, but three times. Zeal without knowledge maybe? Who knows. I have never thought of creation in this way but it makes sense. Also I never noticed that Lehi described it so. I have read that scripture many times, but never really gave much thought to it. Very interesting.

  3. That is a fascinating insight about opposition in all things necessitating that we have both a spirit and physical body. I will have to ponder that one. Obviously without a body were are incomplete, but with a body, we are apt to be driven by it, rather than drive it ourselves, making us as out of balance as it there were no ressurection in the first place. 2 Nephi 2 has always been one of my favorite passages of scripture, a key to our theodicy, but I never caught the compound in one comment. Thank you

  4. ha ha ha ha things that act are the intellegence and things to be acted upon are matter which exsist and always did in the outer darkness or space where there is no kingdom of a god this is kind of good wheres some better stuff i mean if you go and find where lehi is talking to his two sons and warns them of being sons of perdition he stats things to act and things to be acted upon which are the two main building blocks in the universe and then you go about one third way in the d&c and read what those two things are then it will broaden your mind

  5. […] Outer darkness has no limits or boundaries to it.  It is truly infinite.  (See the post, Deep Waters: Lehi’s model of the universe, for more info on this […]

  6. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
    Shouldn’t “not created or made, neither indeed can be,” be applied to the compound in one substance — not the light, which is the contents of the sphere?

  7. Justin, see the next Deep Waters article linked to this post. (The Creatio ex nihilo one.) I believe I stated there that that expression is, in fact, referring to the compound in one substance.

  8. I just had the thought that the atonement and the law are in opposition to each other. My question is, is the law “to be acted upon, and the atonement is “to act” upon the law?

  9. Yes. That’s a brilliant thought.

  10. Other philologists have claimed that the verb bārā, which is usually rendered as ‘to create’, in this case referred to ‘cleaving’ or ‘separating’ – which is an entirely different matter: ‘In the beginning, God cleft heaven and earth.’

    Taken from this page.

    I never heard of such a rendering.

  11. This is true — most of what takes place in Gen. 1’s creation is cleaving — or dividing: heaven and earth, light and dark, waters above and waters below, land and water, woman and man, etc.

    Also, the Hebrew word for covenant [briyth] is from “barah” — in the sense of cutting [like “bara'”]. Hence, a compact made by passing between divided pieces of flesh — cutting where the blood flows.

    I enjoyed this page when I was once reading about the relation of “covenant” to “cutting” [and thus “bara”]

  12. There is also this, which states:

    “In the beginning of God’s preparing the heavens and the earth — the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:1-2 (Young’s Literal Translation)

    The modern versions seem to translate the “vibrating” [rachaph] into hovering or moving. This may be an example where the translation may totally change the information or image. If it does mean vibrating and we don’t understand that word in the verse, then they use something that is more logical, or, that the common man in the street will understand.

  13. The Book of Abraham uses the word “brooding” instead of fluttering or vibrating.

  14. Ok, here I am in 2007 still. I have to ask a question here. And maybe you’ve answered it in a later post but I’m not there yet so….it appears from this post that you are of the belief that all those who don’t repent will suffer the second death and be cast into outer darkness. I was of the understanding that only sons of perdition suffer this fate and that the only way to become such is to deny the Holy Ghost after receiving it. Can you clarify your position on this for me? Oh and PS- awesome post! I read it twice and read it to my hubby. I may have to print this one up and pass it around!

  15. That was me ^ I’m not anonymous. Don’t know how that happened:/
    |

  16. liv435,

    Justin knows where everything is on this site better than I do. He could probably point you to the posts and/or comments that clarify those points, if indeed they have been mentioned elsewhere. (And I do believe that they have been addressed somewhere around here.) But at the risk of repeating what I may have already written on this blog, I will say this:

    There are two judgments spoken of in the scriptures. The first one is a partial judgment, ocurring after the death of the mortal body, after the spirit is “resurrected” or raised up to paradise, which partial judgment separates the wicked from the righteous, the righteous going into paradise and the wicked going into hell, also called outer darkness. This first judgment causes all those unrepentant souls to be cast out into outer darkness (hell) and to suffer a spiritual death, meaning the death of their spirits. These spirits will then be “resurrected,” or come back alive, through the work of missionaries bringing the light of the gospel to them and then will be enabled to exercise faith and repent, which, when that occurs, will allow them to leave outer darkness or hell, being raised up again to paradise (see Alma 39:15.)

    The second judgment occurs after the resurrection of the body. The only ones, at that point, who will be unrepentant will be the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition. These will then be cast out into the original outer darkness. (Now, this is all based upon a pattern.) There is a smaller kingdom of God (paradise) and a smaller outer darkness (hell), both of which are found here on Earth and which are patterned after the larger kingdom of God (the created Universal sphere of light) and the larger, original outer darkness (beyond the original lake of fire and brimstone.) There is a smaller version of the lake of fire and brimstone (here on Earth) which is patterned after an infinitely larger, original version. A small or limited judgment and a larger or final judgment, and so on and so forth.

    With that in mind, (and I suspect I may have just confused you even more!), I can address the sons of perdition. Everyone who dies in their sins will suffer the second death, meaning the death of their spirits, whether they are sons of perdition or not. (See 2 Ne. 9.) However, as the scripture says, the sons of perdition are

    the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power (D&C 76:37)

    Now, this does not mean that they are the only ones who will experience a second death, for, like I said, everyone who dies in their sins experiences the death of their spirits. Yet these souls will be “resurrected” from their second death, which is a spiritual death, and they will be released from their chains of hell. Thus, the second death will not have any power over these souls, for they will be liberated and loosed from the bands of hell. The sons of perdition, however, will never be released from their chains of hell, or, in other words, their second death has power to bind them down forever in spiritual death. This is the meaning of the scripture.

    Most people read the verse as if it said, “the only ones who shall experience the second death,” which is not what it says, nor what it means. It is only referring to the power of the second death to keep souls in their spiritually dead (or spirit death) condition, permanently. The second death will end for all the souls bound down in hell, for Christ’s resurrection and atonement will eventually break every band, including the chains of hell and the bands of death, with the notable exception of the sons of perdition, who will never become spiritually alive ever again, their spiritual, second death becoming permanent, just as everything else in creation will become permanent, in a fixed condition, in the resurrection.

    Again, I feel like I spoke to my understanding, for I understand what I just wrote, but I’m thinking that I just confused the heck out of you…

    Justin, or anyone else that understands the above, please feel free to explain what I mean better than what I just did.

  17. I can remember some comments at LDS Alive in Christ — to quote pieces of them here:

    Everyone who leaves this life, goes to one of two places in spirit world: hell or paradise. The only people who go to paradise are those who have no chain of hell attached to them, meaning, all little children and all saints, who have repented of their sins with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. These people all inherit a celestial glory and await the resurrection in paradise.

    Everyone else, regardless of what church they pertain to (including ours), goes to hell when they leave this life. Only people whose hearts are broken and who have repented in the depths of sorrow bypass hell and go to paradise.

    Once they find themselves in hell, these people lose all hope of escape and go through the wailing, gnashing of teeth, etc. When spirit missionaries get to them, and preach them the gospel, they obtain hope again and desire to be saved by obedience to the principles that the missionaries teach them. After their hearts are broken and their repentance complete, and forgiveness received, these people can leave hell, for their chain of hell has been shaken off of them, and they can go to paradise to await the resurrection. This means that paradise also contains spirits who will inherit the terrestrial glory, but these spirits only enter after they have been preached to by the missionaries.
    […]
    The only difference between the three types of spirits is that one does not procrastinate the day of his repentance (the celestial spirit), while another procrastinates that day (the terrestrial spirit), and the third procrastinates it even longer (the telestial.) [The sons of perdition don’t procrastinate the day of their repentance. They simply refuse to ever repent.]

    So — the question I posted on that post — which is the same question I’ve used in Sunday school lessons at church is:

    What happens to a good Gentile person who chooses to reject the gospel and Christ in this life and when it is presented to them in the spirit world?

    Though he/she never obtained the unction from on High, they likewise never received the gospel and repented of their sins. So does this person have inheritance in the kingdom of God or not?

    In the spirit world, Christ is revealed to every person. Nobody is condemned for choices they make in ignorance. But the beauty of LDS theology is that everyone gets to make a fully informed choice to accept or reject Christ, repent of their sins, and be saved.

    Further, we can not atone for our own sins. We may suffer for them it is true, but that suffering is either unto repentance or not — it does not atone or remit a single sin. Only Christ’s atonement can satisfy the demands of justice.

    So given that — would you place the person described above [an otherwise good and moral Gentile person who never repents and accepts the gospel] inside the kingdom of God upon the resurrection [salvation, in one of its three degrees] or outside of the kingdom of God [damnation, in outer darkness]?

    So, when you write:

    […] all those who don’t repent will suffer the second death and be cast into outer darkness.

    I was of the understanding that only sons of perdition suffer this fate and that the only way to become such is to deny the Holy Ghost after receiving it.

    Where do you place “all those who don’t repent” — if they refuse to repent, is that not the definition of “damnation”.

  18. LDSA
    Thank you for your response. I’m obviously not as awesomely intelligent as you are but I think I understand what you’re saying;) I agree with your understanding too. We(husband and I)tend to be guarded when it comes to others beliefs because we don’t ever want to feel like we’re revering or trusting in man too much-Lol. But the spirit convinces and a lot of your posts carry that power, this one in particular. So while we won’t seek you to be our leader, we have been very edified, enlightened, and encouraged by this blog so thank you again.

    Justin
    Thanks for your response as well. When I referred to unrepentant sinners I meant those who did not repent in this life. My personal understanding(feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) is that eventually(after death) every single person will repent, except for sons of perdition. They may do it quickly or take longer which will determine their place in one of the lower kingdoms. Also that “damnation” refers to not being able to reproduce so everyone in a terrestrial or telestial kingdom would be considered damned. I never thought the sons of perdition would be damned but would degrees until they returned to their original state. Kind of like a cup of water being drawn from the ocean which makes it an individual and sons of perdition are just cast back into the ocean losing their identity. Lame comparison I know but as I said earlier I’m not quite on the intellectual level you two are;) any thoughts?

  19. liv435,

    What I wrote concerning confusing you wasn’t so much a commentary on your ability to understand, as it was my inability to communicate my thoughts coherently. I’m glad to hear that you made sense of my words.

    Re: damnation. This was a topic that once came up on this blog. See this post.

    My personal understanding (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) is that eventually (after death) every single person will repent, except for sons of perdition.

    That is also my understanding.

  20. The Bitter Cup

    And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning. (3 Ne. 11:11)

    For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. (D&C 19:16-19)

    But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup. (Alma 40:26)

    All symbols in the gospel represent literal (concrete) things. The real bitter cup, upon which the symbolic bitter cup is based, appears to be the lake of fire and brimstone, which is not flat but curves upward, like a dish or cup, being in the shape of a infinitely large sphere, as explained in the OP.


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