2 Nephi 3 expounded: the real Josephite restorer


I will expound Lehi’s words, taking 2 Nephi 3 as my text.

And now I speak unto you, Joseph, my last-born. Thou wast born in the wilderness of mine afflictions; yea, in the days of my greatest sorrow did thy mother bear thee.

And may the Lord consecrate also unto thee this land, which is a most precious land, for thine inheritance and the inheritance of thy seed with thy brethren, for thy security forever, if it so be that ye shall keep the commandments of the Holy One of Israel.

And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed.

For behold, thou art the fruit of my loins; and I am a descendant of Joseph [through Manasseh] who was carried captive into Egypt. And great were the covenants of the Lord which he made unto Joseph.

Wherefore, Joseph truly saw our day. [Joseph of Egypt saw the Josephites, who were descendants of Lehi, and then issued his prophecy of the Josephite restorer.] And he obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of his loins the Lord God would raise up a righteous branch unto the house of Israel; not the Messiah, but a branch which was to be broken off, nevertheless, to be remembered in the covenants of the Lord that the Messiah should be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the spirit of power, unto the bringing of them out of darkness unto light—yea, out of hidden darkness and out of captivity unto freedom.

This righteous branch are the literal seed of Lehi that will take upon themselves again the name of Nephites, this branch, which has withered away and died, miraculously coming back into existence, being restored, through the ministration of the Josephite restorer.

For Joseph truly testified, saying: A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.

This choice seer is the Josephite restorer.

Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins.

The literal seed of Lehi will esteem the Josephite restorer highly, but not, necessarily, the Gentiles.

And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers.

This part of the work of restoration that the Josephite restorer will perform will be through the bringing forth of more scripture.

And I will give unto him a commandment that he shall do none other work, save the work which I shall command him. And I will make him great in mine eyes; for he shall do my work.

At some point, the Josephite restorer will cease working after the manner of men, because the Lord will command him to no longer work like other men. This means he will be, essentially, unemployed, meaning that he will not be employed by others, or in business for himself, in the traditional sense. Nevertheless, the Lord God will give him a work to do, and this will be his only work. In other words, this Josephite restorer will claim that whatever he is doing for a living was given him of God. Also, whatever he is doing, period, he will claim that it is being done on the Lord’s errand, or on assignment of the Holy Ghost.

And he shall be great like unto Moses, whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel.

And Moses will I raise up, to deliver thy people out of the land of Egypt.

The Josephite restorer will also be a deliverer, as great as Moses was.

But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them.

The Josephite restorer will bring forth new scripture, specifically, in this verse, the plates of brass. Additionally, he will convince the seed of Joseph of Egypt (which are the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh) that the scriptures that are around at this time (which are the current Standard Works), are true, and he will do this principally by the miracles he performs, for these people will see him (and also point others to him) as living proof that the scriptures, which already have gone forth, are true, for he will be performing the same miracles and exercising the very same faith as all the ancients, and more especially as all the ancients of the Book of Mormon. And he, in turn, will point people to Christ.

Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

The Josephite restorer will write, bringing forth the plates of brass, the Nephite scriptures, etc.  John the revelator will also write, bringing forth the book of the Lamb of God.  Both sets of scriptures will be united, establishing peace among the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, confounding false doctrines, etc.

And out of weakness he shall be made strong, in that day when my work shall commence among all my people, unto the restoring thee, O house of Israel, saith the Lord.

The Josephite restorer will start out as a weak man, according to the strength of men.  In other words, when men look upon him, they will consider him weak in body and nothing of any particular notice or threat.  Later, through the exercise of his exceedingly great faith, he will be made strong by the power of the Lord, meaning that he will obtain the ancient strength of the Lord that is spoken of in the scriptures, and he will no longer appear to men as weak, but will appear to them as very strong and imposing, and also will have miraculous strength and power.  In other words, his very body will be restored, genetically, to a heightened state, through his faith.  Again, in other words, when the Lord Jesus asks the question,

Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

The answer to it is: the Josephite restorer can and will, through his faith.  He is to be the epitome of faith and masculinity, not by birth, but by the exercise of his strong faith.

And thus prophesied Joseph, saying: Behold, that seer will the Lord bless; and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise, which I have obtained of the Lord, of the fruit of my loins, shall be fulfilled. Behold, I am sure of the fulfilling of this promise;

The Josephite restorer will please the Lord, not because of his deeds, but because of the exercise of his faith, and those that bless him will be blessed by the Lord, and those that curse him and seek him harm, will be cursed and confounded themselves, through miracles of the Lord.  When he finally starts exercising his faith, the Lord will only bless him, for his trial of faith will already have been experienced and past.  But even before he begins to exercise his faith, while still in his trial of faith, the Lord will bless and protect him and care for him, and all who stand in his way will still be cursed, not because of his exercised faith, but because of his labors in his trial of faith, for even that will please the Lord.

And his name shall be called after me; and it shall be after the name of his father. And he shall be like unto me; for the thing, which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand, by the power of the Lord shall bring my people unto salvation.

His name shall be called “So-and-so Joseph-Nephi-Lehi,” being called both after the name of Joseph and also after the name of Lehi.  He will also take the name of Nephi upon him, that there be again Nephites in the land.  He will not be born with this surname, but will change the surname he was born with to this new surname, when the Lord finally reveals to him that he is, indeed, the promised Josephite restorer.  Nevertheless, even before the Lord reveals that he is indeed the Josephite restorer, he will already begin to suspect it, thus the revelation will not be a surprise, but a confirmation of his suspicions.

His first name will be the same name as his father’s first name, thus the new surname that he takes, (of Joseph-Nephi-Lehi,) will be (in order or sequence), after the name of his father (which he also bears.)  Thus, in order or sequence, his father’s given name comes before or first (so-and-so) and then his surname comes after or last (Joseph-Nephi-Lehi).  This will fulfill the prophecy, for the first part speaks of “called after” and the second part speaks of just “after.”  The first part is speaking of being called the same name, while the second part is speaking of the sequence or order of the name: after, as opposed to before.

The “thing” spoken of, are the scriptural records he will bring forth.

Yea, thus prophesied Joseph: I am sure of this thing, even as I am sure of the promise of Moses; for the Lord hath said unto me, I will preserve thy seed forever.

And the Lord hath said: I will raise up a Moses; and I will give power unto him in a rod; and I will give judgment unto him in writing. Yet I will not loose his tongue, that he shall speak much, for I will not make him mighty in speaking. But I will write unto him my law, by the finger of mine own hand; and I will make a spokesman for him.

I ain’t gonna talk about Moses.

And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins, unto the fruit of thy loins; and the spokesman of thy loins shall declare it.

And the words which he shall write shall be the words which are expedient in my wisdom should go forth unto the fruit of thy loins. And it shall be as if the fruit of thy loins had cried unto them from the dust; for I know their faith.

And they shall cry from the dust; yea, even repentance unto their brethren, even after many generations have gone by them. And it shall come to pass that their cry shall go, even according to the simpleness of their words.

Because of their faith their words shall proceed forth out of my mouth unto their brethren who are the fruit of thy loins; and the weakness of their words will I make strong in their faith, unto the remembering of my covenant which I made unto thy fathers.

This is speaking of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, which will be accomplished also by the Josephite restorer.  (For Joseph Smith never brought forth the Book of Mormon, he only brought forth a part of the Book of Mormon.  The missing part was lost: the 116 manuscript pages, consisting of Mormon’s title page and the Book of Lehi.  This will be restored by the Josephite restorer, with the help of a spokesman.  (See this and this and this comment and also this post.)

And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy.

Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book.

The Josephites will hearken unto the restored Book of Mormon that the Josephite restorer brings forth.

And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren.

Now, the Josephite restorer will restore both the Nephites and also the house of Israel (through the plates of brass), but will be noted especially for the many miracles he does, for he will be a head:

And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit; that unto some it may be given to have all those gifts, that there may be a head, in order that every member may be profited thereby.  (D&C 46:28-29)

The last words of Lehi were:

And now, blessed art thou, Joseph. Behold, thou art little; wherefore hearken unto the words of thy brother, Nephi, and it shall be done unto thee even according to the words which I have spoken. Remember the words of thy dying father. Amen.

Now, Joseph hearkened unto his brother Nephi, therefore this prophecy is sure.

Additional considerations

It is my belief and understanding that this passage of scripture is speaking of the Josephite restorer:

But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.  (3 Ne. 21:10-11)

Marred means to cut off a part, so that the whole is disfigured and reduced in function, leaving a scar.  The Josephite restorer, therefore, will be a circumcised man that has a scar, reduced function and who exercises his faith to the end that he is restored to intact by the power of God.  These physical infirmities and afflictions are the cause by which the man will pull himself up by his bootstraps and cause miracles to happen, for, unlike other men, he will not be content to live his life as he is, but will send up a million prayers of faith until his physical body is totally transformed and made whole, and it is this tremendous exercise of faith that will cascade all gifts into him, for he will not stop asking until he obtains them all.  This is why he is spoken of in such elevated terms by these prophets, for he is, or will be, the greatest of all seers in Joseph (of Egypt’s) line, possessing all the gifts.  And it is this possession of all these gifts, and his great desires, that he will use to restore the Nephites and Israelites, for his faith is, or will be, overpowering, making him essentially an unstoppable force among the Gentiles.  Therefore, all seers looked to him as the one who performed, or will perform, all the rest of the work of salvation, which is the bulk of it, for his faith won’t be like some of them, but like all of them, for he will ask for everything they had, and more.

The Josephite seer, then, is noted by his faith working mighty miracles, and this is why when the scriptures speak of the Lord working by power in the latter-days (such as in Alma 37),

And now remember, my son, that God has entrusted you with these things, which are sacred, which he has kept sacred, and also which he will keep and preserve for a wise purpose in him, that he may show forth his power unto future generations.  (Alma 37:14)

it is likely that this is speaking of the ministry of the Josephite restorer.

In conclusion

Joseph Smith is not even mentioned in 2 Nephi 3, for he was just a shadow fulfillment and also he was of the wrong lineage, for the Josephite restorer will be of the tribe of Manasseh and a direct descendant of Joseph, Lehi’s son.  Nearly the entire chapter, then, is speaking only of this particular man and his great ministry, and not of any other.  Joseph Smith’s work, then, can be considered a foundational work, so that some of the Book of Mormon could be brought forth, in order that the Josephite restorer could read it and be inspired by it and seek to emulate it.

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41 Comments

  1. I have no time to check this post for typos, etc. I’ll come back later and do that. I just wanted to get it out today, so hopefully my not reading through it once won’t prove an utter disaster. If there are errors, I’ll come back and fix them.

  2. Joseph Smith was a descendent of Joseph, through Ephraim.

  3. I have a theory that Joseph Smith may be a descendent of the Nephites. Some of these Nephites may have sailed to Europe, and joined or started the Knights Templars. Some of the characters in templar inscriptions, including ones in the United States, match characters from the golden plates.

  4. Joseph Smith was a descendent of Joseph, through Ephraim.

    Right. This is why he cannot fulfill this prophecy of the Josephite restorer.

  5. The Nephites were of the tribe of Manasseh, not Ephraim. Supposedly the lost book of Lehi stated that Ishmael was of Ephraim, and if that is the case, then the sons of Ishmael, who were Lamanites, were of the tribe of Ephraim. Nevertheless, as they called themselves Lamanites, they likely adopted themselves into the tribe of Manasseh, too. However, if they did not change their lineage by becoming Lamanites, then Joseph would have had to have descended from the sons of Ishmael, in order to trace his lineage to the people of the Book of Mormon, thus being an Ishmaelite, which is highly unlikely.

    As much as people would like to link Joseph Smith to the prophecy found in 2 Ne. 3, there is no link, whatsoever. Yet still the chapter heading says it speaks of him…

  6. Okay, I want to say more about this man, for I love talking and writing about him.

    This guy will be “like unto” Joseph, Moses and also Lehi, but it can also be said that he will be “like unto” the other seers, prophets, revelators and miracle workers that have gone before. This is because the man will seek to emulate all these men, not just one of them. What he reads in the scriptures is what he will seek to restore; the very same spiritual powers and gifts that the ancients had is what he will seek to restore, by emulating or obtaining them himself, that he might send them forth again among the people.

    One thing more, when the text says, “they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded,” my understanding is that he will emulate the 3 translated disciples even, so that he will be a translated being, and these same works will be shown among the people. In other words, the people will try to kill him, as they tried to kill them, by fiery furnaces, etc., and he will be unscathed by every attempt. So, this man will be a mix of everyone who came before, moving mountains like the brother of Jared, raising the dead and walking on water like Jesus, etc. These miracles will completely dumbfound the Gentiles. They will be astonished by his power, and thus the Lord will show the Gentiles His power, in this man, through his faith in Christ.

  7. Don’t mind me, I just feel like expounding more…

    The power to convince

    But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them. (2 Ne. 3:11)

    This will be the same power given to Nephi:

    And it came to pass that Nephi—having been visited by angels and also the voice of the Lord, therefore having seen angels, and being eye-witness, and having had power given unto him that he might know concerning the ministry of Christ, and also being eye-witness to their quick return from righteousness unto their wickedness and abominations;

    Therefore, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds—went forth among them in that same year, and began to testify, boldly, repentance and remission of sins through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    And he did minister many things unto them; and all of them cannot be written, and a part of them would not suffice, therefore they are not written in this book. And Nephi did minister with power and with great authority.

    And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily.

    And in the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits; and even his brother did he raise from the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered death by the people.

    And the people saw it, and did witness of it, and were angry with him because of his power; and he did also do many more miracles, in the sight of the people, in the name of Jesus. (3 Ne. 7:15-20)

    This mighty power to convince will convince the people to either eternal life or eternal damnation:

    For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken. (1 Ne. 14:7)

    This is also why those who reject his message will be cut off:

    therefore
    it shall come to pass
    that whosoever will not believe in my words
    who am jesus christ
    which the father shall cause him [the Josephite restorer] to bring forth unto the gentiles
    and shall give unto him [the Josephite restorer] power
    that he shall bring them forth unto the gentiles
    it shall be done even as moses said
    they shall be cut off from among my people
    who are of the covenant (3 Ne. 21:11)

    There will be Gentiles who are convinced and reject the message anyway, but the Nephite remnant will be convinced and repent, as well as the Jews:

    And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb [through the Josephite restorer], from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true. (1 Ne. 13:39)

    Wherefore, he shall bring forth his words unto them [the Jews], which words shall judge them at the last day, for they shall be given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them; and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward any more for a Messiah to come (2 Ne. 25:18)

    Nephi’s comment about the Josephite prophecy

    And now, I, Nephi, speak concerning the prophecies of which my father hath spoken, concerning Joseph, who was carried into Egypt.

    For behold, he truly prophesied concerning all his seed. And the prophecies which he wrote, there are not many greater. And he prophesied concerning us, and our future generations; and they are written upon the plates of brass. (2 Ne. 4:1-2)

    In other words, the prophecy that Lehi quoted from Joseph of Egypt, was concerning the Nephites, meaning the Nephi-Lehi genealogical lines. This includes both the remnant that would be restored and also the man who would restore them (the Josphite restorer).

    This may also refer to the work of the Josephite restorer

    Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

    Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man [the Josephite restorer?], who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

    For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

    And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be. (D&C 103:15-18)

    I can’t say for sure that this is speaking of him, but it has all the earmarks of his ministry, as he will be a deliverer, and like unto Moses, and also will be instrumental in restoring the people back to the lands of their inheritance (back to Zion.)

    Messiah ben Joseph

    There is a (false) tradition among the Jews that there are two Messiahs, a Messiah ben David (which means “son of” David), who is a descendant of Judah, and a Messiah ben Joseph. Now, there is only one Messiah (or Anointed One), who is called Jesus Christ. Nephi clearly taught this:

    the Jews shall be scattered among all nations; yea, and also Babylon shall be destroyed; wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered by other nations.

    And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nations for the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind—and when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things.

    And the Lord will set his hand again the second time to restore his people from their lost and fallen state. Wherefore, he will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder among the children of men.

    Wherefore, he shall bring forth his words unto them, which words shall judge them at the last day, for they shall be given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them; and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward any more for a Messiah to come, for there should not any come, save it should be a false Messiah which should deceive the people; for there is save one Messiah spoken of by the prophets, and that Messiah is he who should be rejected of the Jews.

    For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

    And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. (2 Ne. 25:15-20)

    Nevertheless, despite the falsehood of this Jewish tradition, there are two restoring seers in the Joseph ben Jacob line: one coming from his son Ephraim (the “ben Ephraim” restorer), who was Joseph Smith, Jun., and one coming from his son Manasseh (the “ben Manasseh” restorer), who will be called Joseph-Nephi-Lehi.

    Manasseh was Joseph’s eldest son and Ephraim was his second son, but when Jacob blessed them, he put Ephraim before Manasseh, thus the first son (Manasseh) became the last and the last (Ephraim) became the first. This was because, although Manasseh would truly be great, into the Ephraim line God would put all the Gentiles that would convert, making Ephraim even greater (in numbers) than his brother. Because of this blessing, the first restorer would come of the Ephraim line, and would concern, principally, the Gentiles. This work was done by Joseph Smith, Jun., the seer who was of the Ephraim line. Although the work done by Joseph Smith was truly great, and of great importance to the Gentiles, in particular, and although he was of the greater tribe, and his work was done first, as God tends to do, his work would be the lesser of the two works performed by these two restorers, being used by God to set the foundation for what came after. So, once again, the first would be made last in greatness, and the greater would become the lesser, and the lesser would become the greater, etc. The Josephite restorer, of the lineage of Manasseh, then, would not start out with a bang, like Joseph did in his first vision, uttering his very first oral prayer and seeing God on the very first try, but with more of a gradual increase and strengthening of faith, until the Josephite restorer finally is able to rend the veil of unbelief, ushering in the great and amarvelous work.

    In other words, he is to start out quite weak, in order to fulfill this scripture:

    And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity—

    To prepare the weak [including the Josephite restorer] for those things which are coming on the earth, and for the Lord’s errand in the day when the weak [including the Josephite restorer] shall confound the wise, and the little one [including the Josephite restorer] become a strong nation, and two [including the Josephite restorer] shall put their tens of thousands to flight.

    And by the weak things [including the Josephite restorer] of the earth the Lord shall thresh the nations by the power of his Spirit. (D&C 133:57-59)

    So, Joseph Smith’s mission was preparatory, to prepare the way for the Josephite restorer, who would be that weak thing that would be coming, which the Lord would use to showcase His power and thresh the nations, taking a very small and simple means and making it truly great, etc.

    Joseph Smith is not referred to, at all, in 2 Nephi 3

    This part of the prophecy does not refer, at all, to Joseph Smith, Jun., nor to Oliver Cowdery, for Joseph never wrote the Book of Mormon, he merely read the Book of Mormon out loud, dictating a divinely-interpreted-English-version of it, to Oliver Cowdery, and it was Oliver Cowdery, who wrote it:

    And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins, unto the fruit of thy loins; and the spokesman of thy loins shall declare it.

    And the words which he shall write shall be the words which are expedient in my wisdom should go forth unto the fruit of thy loins. And it shall be as if the fruit of thy loins had cried unto them from the dust; for I know their faith.

    And they shall cry from the dust; yea, even repentance unto their brethren, even after many generations have gone by them. And it shall come to pass that their cry shall go, even according to the simpleness of their words.

    Because of their faith their words shall proceed forth out of my mouth unto their brethren who are the fruit of thy loins; and the weakness of their words will I make strong in their faith, unto the remembering of my covenant which I made unto thy fathers.

    And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy.

    Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book.
    (2 Ne. 3:18-23)

    Additionally, there was no spokesman that declared the Book of Mormon to the remnant, and also, the remnant never hearkened unto the words of the book. These prophecies, then, do not speak of Joseph Smith (the restorer ben Ephraim) nor of Oliver Cowdery, but of the work that the Josephite restorer (the restorer ben Manasseh) would do, which is why father Lehi even mentioned it. When the Josephite restorer, and his spokesman (whoever that is), declare the newly translated Book of Mormon to the remnant, they will be convinced and will hearken to it, fulfilling these prophecies every whit.

    Now, in 2 Ne. 27, we read of a man who has the Book of Mormon delivered to him, and this man “reads” the book, but doesn’t write it, which actually much more closely matches what Joseph Smith actually did:

    But behold, it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall say unto him to whom he shall deliver the book: Take these words which are not sealed and deliver them to another, that he may show them unto the learned, saying: Read this, I pray thee. And the learned shall say: Bring hither the book, and I will read them.

    And now, because of the glory of the world and to get gain will they say this, and not for the glory of God.

    And the man shall say: I cannot bring the book, for it is sealed.

    Then shall the learned say: I cannot read it.

    Wherefore it shall come to pass, that the Lord God will deliver again the book and the words thereof to him that is not learned; and the man that is not learned shall say: I am not learned.

    Then shall the Lord God say unto him: The learned shall not read them, for they have rejected them, and I am able to do mine own work; wherefore thou shalt read the words which I shall give unto thee.

    Touch not the things which are sealed, for I will bring them forth in mine own due time; for I will show unto the children of men that I am able to do mine own work.

    Wherefore, when thou hast read the words which I have commanded thee, and obtained the witnesses which I have promised unto thee, then shalt thou seal up the book again, and hide it up unto me, that I may preserve the words which thou hast not read, until I shall see fit in mine own wisdom to reveal all things unto the children of men.

    For behold, I am God; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.

    And again it shall come to pass that the Lord shall say unto him that shall read the words that shall be delivered him: (2 Ne. 27:15-24)

    I will write more after this…

  8. Moroni’s curious words in Mormon 8:26

    And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

    What the hell, Moroni! These words have already come! You cannot write words that no one has ever read, and then prophesy (to the people who will read your words when your words finally get published) that these people who are now reading your words should not say that your words are not going to be published! Duh! Surely this is evidence that the Book of Mormon is totally made-up. Right?

    Of course, this is simply stupidity on my part (and anyone else who thinks these dumb thoughts), and ignorance about the prophecies and what these Nephites were actually saying, or trying to say, for Moroni was never speaking of the first appearance of the Book of Mormon, but of its second appearance. Although we can apply these words of Moroni to Joseph Smith, Jun., for surely they also apply to him:

    And behold, their prayers were also in behalf of him that the Lord should suffer to bring these things forth. (Moro. 8:25)

    nevertheless, they apply specifically to the Josephite restorer, for all the hopes of the restoration were placed upon his shoulders, not on Joseph Smith’s shoulders. These ancients, all of them that prayed in behalf of him, saw him, and they prayed that their gifts would be given to him. They would look forward to him, and he would look backwards to them, and he would ask God that the ancients had seen him (which they had already), or that God had shown him to the ancients of this land (which He had already done), and that they had prayed to God in behalf of him (which they had done already) and that their prayers would be consecrated to his benefit (which they already had). This link between the past and future, in which the hearts of the Nephite fathers were (and are) turned to the heart of the Nephite son (who doesn’t even know that he is a Nephite son), and the heart of this insignificant Nephite son is turned to the Nephite fathers, each side praying for the other, gets the attention of the Lord, for although weak, the Lord takes notice of the seed of faith growing in this one single person, and He can see that it will grow, like the mustard seed, into quite a doozy of a tree.

    Moroni 8:13-34, then, is talking of the time when the Josephite restorer will appear on the scene, not the time of Joseph Smith.

    Marvelous Work and a Wonder/Great and Marvelous Work = the Josephite restorer’s work

    And after our seed is scattered the Lord God will proceed to do a marvelous work among the Gentiles, which shall be of great worth unto our seed; wherefore, it is likened unto their being nourished by the Gentiles and being carried in their arms and upon their shoulders. (1 Ne. 22:8)

    Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins. And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers. (2 Ne. 3:7)

    Now, everything about this guy is spoken of in grandiose terms. Some variation of the word “great” is mentioned 6 times in Lehi’s Josephite prophecy. About the biggest compliment that can be given about this guy are the following words, said by the Lord:

    And I will make him great in mine eyes (2 Ne. 3:8)

    and these words, spoken by Lehi:

    And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall … do that thing which is great in the sight of God (2 Ne. 3:24)

    So, this man himself will be great in the eyes of God and also the work that he does will be great in the sight of God.

    Now, these words are impressive (to me, at least), for God is the greatest of all, therefore, surely all things he sees are not great, or are small, but this man, and his work, shall be made great by God, by His own power, therefore, it and he surely shall be great. And if he and his work are considered great by the Lord, then to men who see this man in action, performing his work, they will be astounded.

    Now, I will go out on a limb (if anyone is still reading this post and these comments, for the lack of response by people may mean either they are not reading, or no one has a clue of what to add to this discussion), and say that what Lehi actually saw in his glorious vision, which is barely mentioned in the very first chapter of the Book of Mormon:

    And it came to pass as he prayed unto the Lord, there came a pillar of fire and dwelt upon a rock before him; and he saw and heard much; and because of the things which he saw and heard he did quake and tremble exceedingly.

    And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem; and he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome with the Spirit and the things which he had seen.

    And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.

    And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.

    And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.

    And they came down and went forth upon the face of the earth; and the first came and stood before my father, and gave unto him a book, and bade him that he should read.

    And it came to pass that as he read, he was filled with the Spirit of the Lord.

    And he read, saying: Wo, wo, unto Jerusalem, for I have seen thine abominations! Yea, and many things did my father read concerning Jerusalem—that it should be destroyed, and the inhabitants thereof; many should perish by the sword, and many should be carried away captive into Babylon.

    And it came to pass that when my father had read and seen many great and marvelous things, he did exclaim many things unto the Lord; such as: Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty! Thy throne is high in the heavens, and thy power, and goodness, and mercy are over all the inhabitants of the earth; and, because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish!

    And after this manner was the language of my father in the praising of his God; for his soul did rejoice, and his whole heart was filled, because of the things which he had seen, yea, which the Lord had shown unto him. (1 Ne. 1:6-15)

    Now, what was it that Lehi saw that amazed him so? He had just seen the future destruction of Jerusalem, yet here he is praising God like a giddy schoolboy who just got handed the keys to the candy store. He is utterly astounded and amazed and grateful and praising the Lord, etc. Why? Surely it is because the Lord gave him a view of the latter days, our days, and showed him the work that would be performed by his descendant, even by the Josephite restorer, and Lehi, being a mere man, seeing what this man would do, which work the Lord (not just men) considers to be great, well, Lehi essentially became a babbling idiot after seeing this. And who could blame him? After all, the greatest seer of all time, the very man who creates penis envy in all the other prophets, seers and revelators, came from, or would come from, his loins. What a great honor that would be, huh?

    Okay, so now I’ve painted a picture of this guy, but although he is to be great, it doesn’t mean he is going to be some lord-it-over-others type of guy. The reason, or one of the reasons why God starts him out weak is so that he remains humble, and in his humility, having started out as, essentially, nothing, this guy will do whatever the Lord tells him to and will seek to do everything, too, that all current scriptures are fulfilled or proven to be true, including this whopper:

    For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;

    To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.

    And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven. (JST Gen. 14:30-32)

    So, I think I’m done expounding for today.

  9. A few more expository comments…

    Deliverance of Gentiles in captivity

    And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.

    And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

    And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.

    And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. (1 Ne. 13:16-19)

    My mind cannot help but see that this “power of God” that will be with these Gentiles will be none other than the Josephite restorer wielding the power of God in their behalf.

    A repeat of captain Moroni

    A year ago I wrote a post that nobody commented on (except for myself), so it may be that nobody, or hardly anyone, read it, but in it I expounded upon the principle of deliverance, explaining that captain Moroni was the chief deliverer of the Nephites at that time and all others, including the prophets and seers among the population, took orders from him. Now, my understanding of the Josephite restorer is that we are going to get another repeat of this phenomenon, for he will take the lead or take charge and all other prophets, seers, revelators, miracle workers, whatnot, even any and all saints and spiritually gifted people that are on the scene, whether of modern or ancient origin, will be taking their orders from him, just like captain Moroni.

    A repeat of Joseph who was sold into Egypt

    ¶And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.

    And he said unto them,

    Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:

    For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

    And his brethren said to him,

    Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us?

    And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

    ¶And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said,

    Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

    And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him,

    What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

    And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying. (Genesis 37:5-11)

    So, to answer the questions of Joseph’s brothers and father:

    “Yes. Even twice this shall occur. It occurred the first time when Joseph was sold into Egypt by his brothers, and while there, he became an instrument in the hands of God to preserve all of Israel from perishing with temporal famine, becoming, essentially, the ruler of all, only Pharaoh alone (symbolic of God) being higher than him. Thus, Joseph did, indeed rule over his brothers, having indeed dominion over them, and his father and mother and brothers did, indeed, come to bow down themselves to him to the earth. In like manner, a descendant of this same Joseph who was sold into Egypt, will be raised up in a foreign land, even in this land of America, and will be used by the Lord to preserve the house of Israel from perishing, but this time both spiritually and temporally. Again, it will be done in like manner, by taking this mere man and making him greater than all, excepting only God alone, so that all the house of Israel, all prophets, seers and revelators, all mighty men of strength, all those with wisdom, everyone on earth, of both Jew and Gentile, are put under him. Those that submit to him, will live, just as in the days of the Egyptian famine, and those who will not submit, will perish both spiritually and temporally.”

    It is all the same type:

    Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.

    And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel—

    And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.

    For as Joseph brought his father down into the land of Egypt, even so he died there; wherefore, the Lord brought a remnant of the seed of Joseph out of the land of Jerusalem, that he might be merciful unto the seed of Joseph that they should perish not, even as he was merciful unto the father of Joseph that he should perish not.

    Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old; and they shall no more be confounded, until the end come when the earth shall pass away. (Ether 13:4-8)

    In conclusion

    I think I’ve finally got this Josephite restorer topic out of my system, so that I finally can move on to other topics. But before I leave this one, I will say one thing more about it. The Josephite restorer is especially applicable to us in our day, for, based upon the manifestations of the Spirit to me concerning him, it is my belief and understanding (no confirmation from the Holy Ghost, as yet), that this man is already among the current population, and is currently in the process of being raised up (“31. To ordain; to appoint; or to call to and prepare; to furnish with gifts and qualification suited to a purpose; a Scriptural sense”) by the Lord to be the prophesied choice seer.

  10. After I wrote the above, I found this in the Joseph Smith Translation, which corroborates what I said about a repeat of the Joseph type:

    And Jacob said unto Joseph, When the God of my fathers appeared unto me in Luz, in the land of Canaan; he sware unto me, that he would give unto me, and unto my seed, the land for an everlasting possession.

    Therefore, O my son, he hath blessed me in raising thee up to be a servant unto me, in saving my house from death;

    In delivering my people, thy brethren, from famine which was sore in the land; wherefore the God of thy fathers shall bless thee, and the fruit of thy loins, that they shall be blessed above thy brethren, and above thy father’s house;

    For thou hast prevailed, and thy father’s house hath bowed down unto thee, even as it was shown unto thee, before thou wast sold into Egypt by the hands of thy brethren; wherefore thy brethren shall bow down unto thee, from generation to generation, unto the fruit of thy loins forever;

    For thou shalt be a light unto my people, to deliver them in the days of their captivity, from bondage; and to bring salvation unto them, when they are altogether bowed down under sin. (JST Genesis 48:7-11)

    Thus, the “restoration of all things” was to take part in two steps, by both of these sons of Joseph, one of Ephraim and one of Manasseh, and God will show that He has not “forgotten” the “forgetting” son of Manasseh, for it displeased Joseph to see Ephraim set before Manasseh during Jacob’s blessing:

    And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head. (Gen. 48:17)

    This displeasure of Joseph, seeing his eldest son being put second, was not to be forgotten by the Lord, for Joseph was a holy prophet, whose heart was like God’s heart, and it pleased the Lord to please Joseph, therefore, although Isreal’s blessing was sure and Ephraim would become greater, through the seed of Manasseh the restoration of Israel would take place.

    I realize that the Watcher believes that Joseph Smith will return and complete the restoration, but this is not correct. Although Joseph Smith will return, as will other prophets, his jurisdiction will likely be over the Gentiles of Ephraim, for that was his commission, and the other prophets will also have their commission and jurisdiction given to them, but the head will be the Josephite restorer. Now, time will soon tell, I suppose, which of us is correct.

  11. The spokesman of the Josephite restorer

    Although the Josephite restorer must be of the tribe of Manasseh, the spokesman mentioned in 2 Ne. 3:18 may be either of Ephraim or Manasseh. I’m not yet sure which tribe he’ll belong to, but I am sure that the spokesman will be a descendant of Joseph, who was sold into Egypt.

    Joseph’s name changed by Pharaoh, as a type

    Pharaoh, who symbolized God, gave Joseph a new name, as recorded in Genesis 41:45, calling him Zaphnath-paaneah. According to the Bible Dictionary, its meaning is uncertain, but the Rabbical commentaries, following the Targum, interpret the name as “he who reveals that which is hidden.” This is the very work of the Josephite restorer, for he will bring “them out of darkness unto light, yea, out of hidden darkness.” Thus, God will change his name to Joseph-Nephi-Lehi, just as Pharaoh changed Joseph’s name, and he will do the very work that Joseph’s new name signified.

  12. Are you familiar with Weeping for Zion? According to him this Josephite restorer is the Lord himself. After spending much time reading about this, I feel Weeping could be right. I appreciate your insights as well. Thank you.

  13. meagantabla,

    Yes, I am familiar with his blog, but I haven’t read what he has written about the Josephite restorer. Perhaps you can direct me to his posts that mention this figure?

    As for his assessment that it is the Lord himself, well, in a very real sense, yes, the work is the Lord’s work, the miracles are done by Him, etc. Nevertheless, this “baring of the arm of the Lord” will be through a particular servant, not through the Lord Himself. Specifically, it will be done through this particular servant because of the man’s gargantuan faith. He, then, becomes the “arm of the Lord” that the Lord bares to all the world.

    Right now that arm is covered (in a sleeve, so to speak), so no one can see the mighty muscles underneath. Also, the man is still in his weakness, therefore he has not yet been made strong (in the strength of the Lord.) So, in a sense, the Lord will be operating vicariously through this man, just as He operated vicariously through all the other miracle workers and gift workers of the past and present. But this does not mean that he will be the very Lord in the flesh. No, this will (initially) be a mortal man that becomes, essentially, a superman of sorts, through his faith, to put all the current comic book fanatics to rest in their fantasy figures and imaginations. In other words, everybody is going to have their mouth shut by what they see, meaning that they will be speechless by what they witness, although their mouths will likely be open, and their eyes wide, in astonishment.

    Dan of Weeping for Zion, then, has it wrong in this aspect. What sets this man apart from the other seers and miracle workers that preceded him, is that he will be like them all, having all their powers and gifts, doing all their works. Because of this, it is easy to make the mistake that this guy must be the Lord, for how can a mere man restore just about everything that needs to be restored? But that is the whole point to using him. The Lord is going to show the entire world that with faith, all things are possible, using this man as a demonstration of the infinite power of faith. And this is why he is to start out weak, weaker than all the others, weaker even than most men. It is this weakness that allows him to obtain all things, for his seeking to overcome all his weaknesses, in other words, his frustration with his weakness, seeing no way to get strong save by going directly to God Himself, is what allows this cascade of gifts to come into him, for this man is not like other men, although he appears normal to the average person. This man was exceedingly strong in faith in the pre-mortal existence, to match or exceed all the others, but was put here on earth outside the gospel, in weakness, and not given proper teaching, so that he cold start out weak. In other words, this man is like a Melchizedek, but put in very disadvantaged circumstances, for Melchizedek quenched the violence of fire and stopped the mouths of lions when but a child, and he was able to do this because he was taught correct principles from the start.

    If this man, then, was also taught correct principles from the start, he also would have done what Melchizedek did as a child, but it wasn’t to be so, for God needed to show that He could take the weak and make it strong in faith, so this man in the pre-mortal existence was given the privilege of being born in less than ideal circumstances, so that God could showcase His power.

    Now, the Lord was never weak, nor was Joseph Smith ever weak. Joseph Smith, in fact, can only be classified as strong in faith, for his very oral first prayer opened the heavens and gave him an interview with God the Father Himself! But, whereas Joseph and the others became content with their gifts, this man is different. He is not content, not one bit. He wants it all. He has always wanted it all, or to do all the things the ancients did, all the things Joseph did. These strong desires this man has to obtain the things of God and be liberated from his weakness, and his all-encompassing desire to get everything, is why he is the one chosen, or will be chosen, by God to perform this huge work. He will seek and will seek and will seek and will seek, incessantly, until he gets everything. And once he gets the first thing, in other words, once he learns to exercise his faith, so that he gets out of his weakness, there will be no stopping the man, for he will be very much like a force of nature, for the things of God are what this man most desires for himself and for all others, above all things.

    So, no, it will not be the Lord, but a man who has been held back, reserved for our times, whose ministry will set the standard for the Millennium saints to follow.

  14. This is the most accurate explanation ever written on this subject. It’s nice to know there are some in tune with the spirit of truth.

  15. If consciousness is the dominate force in the universe then it stands to reason that there is a great potential in men to bring about righteousness. Is there a measureable consciousness in a individual? I suspect only the individual would know that. If it could be practiced with obvious advancements eventually faith would be a nonfactor. It is what it is or in scripture “I am that I am”. This probationary state is giving away to eternity where the righteous will be righteous still and the wicked shall remain wicked. This is a evolutionary process that has reached a interesting level. It only takes some 3% of a collective consciousness to bring things to a critical mass, with the spirit of God now being poured out on all flesh I expect this threshold to be meet in the near future.

  16. Every world has it’s own unique oppression a opposition relative to it’s space and law. The threshold of the law in it’s minimum must be explored, bound and sealed by a witness. Isa. 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honorable. Out of weakness he shall be made. strong Isa. 49:11 And I shall make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. Isa. 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that sit in darkness……..

    The souls of men are of great worth unto God as also the witness, by faith he shall accept them, men are to be saviors on mount Zion. One shall “contemplate the great abyss” and cast up a highway out of the great deep, a way for salvation, a way out of hades. Every soul worthy of a salvation must be ferreted out, their ordinances performed by proxy, and accepted by those spirits.

  17. I am a little confused by the article and comments you have made.

    If I am understanding you, you seem to think the second seer figure that has emerged out of your unique interpretation of the scriptures, is currently a mortal person living on the earth that has not yet been endowed with power to make him strong enough to complete what Joseph began,

    You don’t appear to want to identify who this person is even though you believe he is on the earth at this time.

    Some of your comments make it sound as if it is DS and that you will be his spokesman, and yet several things you have said seem to contradict some of what he teaches.

    The other possibility is that you are referring to yourself as the second seer that will eventually arise after the endowment takes place..

  18. You don’t appear to want to identify who this person is even though you believe he is on the earth at this time.

    I don’t know who this person is. I am basing my understanding on the manifestations of the Spirit to me, about this guy.

    Some of your comments make it sound as if it is DS and that you will be his spokesman, and yet several things you have said seem to contradict some of what he teaches.

    I don’t believe it is DS, nor do I believe I am the spokesman, but wouldn’t that be cool if I was the spokesman. DS isn’t of the tribe of Manasseh, is he? Does he have the same name as his father?

    The other possibility is that you are referring to yourself as the second seer that will eventually arise after the endowment takes place..

    Now, that would be even cooler. But like I said, I have no idea who this guy is. If I do find out though, why not say it? So, I’m not trying to hide who he is.

  19. Since he is a Jr. I suspect that he does have the same name as his father…

    I don’t know what tribe he is from, however, given the fact that he is a convert who resents the leadership being almost exclusively from Nauvoo stock, (which is assumed to be from Joseph/Ephraim), he certainly could be of Manasseh.

    I think you would have made a rather interesting spokesman for him.

    Thank you for responding, however, if you take over 24 hours to respond to such an important inquiry again, I may ask for my money back. I expect better customer service than that from you.

  20. I think you would have made a rather interesting spokesman for him.

    Lol. I couldn’t be a spokesman for anyone even if I wanted to. I always stumble over my words when speaking and whenever I try to say something, it almost always come out wrong and I find myself having to stop in mid-sentence while my brain tries to find the right word to use, but it never does (except much later, long after the conversation has ended), and so I often just end up throwing out whatever word happens to be on the tongue, knowing full well it is the wrong one to use to explain the concept in my brain. Either my mind goes much too fast for my mouth to keep up, or I haven’t properly trained myself to instantly and fully access the vocabulary stored in the noggin’. (I think it is the latter, for all brains go fast, and other people seem to have no problem getting the words out.) I’ve always thought that one day I would systematically retrain my speech patterns so that I no longer stumble and hesitate, but I just haven’t been able to get around to it, yet. This blog and my other writings allow me to actually get stuff out in a semi-coherent manner, without causing too much confusion, because after I write something, using the wrong words, I can go and look up the right word and correct the misunderstanding before publishing. So, if anyone needs a spokesman, it would definitely be me.

    As for DS, he simply can’t be the Josephite restorer, for a variety of reasons, even if he is of the tribe of Manasseh. My understanding is that this guy will be performing miracles when brought out of his weakness, and I’ve heard of no gifts, whatsoever, coming from Denver’s quarter. Also, this guy is going to be young, a young man, at least in appearance. Denver, then, is too old. Now, this doesn’t mean that Denver can’t be made young, for this, I suspect, is exactly what is going to happen to the Josephite restorer, namely the fulfillment of this scripture:

    For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies. (D&C 84:33)

    In other words, the restorer is going to be the very embodiment of restoration and renewal, God starting with him and his body, making it younger, faster, stronger, etc., and then scaling the same miracle up and outward, just as plasma manifestations are completely scalable from the tiniest spark to the size of a galaxy (and larger), so that everyone on the planet that repents of their sins, and the planet itself, and all the planets, too, will be restored to their paradisiacal state, ushering in the Millennium.

    Denver, then, if he is the restorer (which he is not), would have to be still in his weak state, in his trial of faith, the heavens still being closed to him, yet he goes around saying that he has seen the Lord and yet he performs no miracles, nor has his body been renewed, therefore, he is not the restorer. Not to mention the doctrine he preaches is not consistent with what I have taught on this blog in the latest post, The Second Seer. Some of it is, and some of it is not. But anyone that teaches anything contrary to Joseph’s revelations is neither the restorer, nor sent by God. All prophets and saints will simply tell the people to conform to Joseph’s revelations, as I have stated already in that post. Any deviation from those revelations is a sign that we are not to follow that person, regardless of who is doing the deviation (even if it is church leadership deviating.)

  21. There will be no restorer, second seer, one mighty and strong, Davidic servant etc. until the “law has been bound and the testimony sealed” sorry but God simply won’t allow it. God will not abandon not even one soul, until every soul has been offered salvation, a highway prepared for their escape everything is on hold.

    From the foundations of the world Christ was commissioned to be the first to”Bind up the law and seal up the testimony” Isa 8: 14-16 and he be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the house of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble and fall, and be broken. and be snared and taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

    And to the Prophet Joseph Smith, D&C 109: Therefore, O Lord, deliver thy people from the calamity of the wicked; enable thy servants to seal up the law, and bind up the testimony, that they may be prepared against the day of burning.

    Isa 42: 19 Who is blind but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? Who s blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lords servant? 21: The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

    Christ was the first suffering servant, he went to his great suffering with a perfect knowledge of His passion, the lamb without spot. Joseph went to his suffering by faith a sinful goat or goats, to explore the dark abyss, the very bottom of this kingdoms space and law, a new world and oppression. D&C 121: 10 Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job. D&C 122: 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murders, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

    To bind up the and seal up the testimony, is the sum of it all, with out it there should be no good thing, all would be lost and subjected to the dark underworld. There should be nothing but eternal misery.

    This is the third measure of leaven, the third watch which as a tempest of hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies. The 100th monkey as the spirit of God is poured out upon all flesh.

  22. That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you AGAIN to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.

    84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the Gentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name,

    TO BIND UP THE LAW AND SEAL UP THE TESTIMONY

    and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;

    85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation.

  23. Lol. Do you two guys even know what the phrases “bind/seal up the law” and “seal/bind up the testimony” actually mean? If so, please, by all means, enlighten all of us.

  24. 24 hour customer service rule in effect

  25. Naw, I am not going to wait the 24 hours to respond.

    The question has to do with the meaning of the following phrase
    “bind up the law and seal up the testimony” D&C 84:84 & 109:46

    It appears at face value that the phrase has to do with accomplishing two different things once the Lord’s servants go forth IN POWER.

    It delivers the wicked over to the buffetings of Satan who reject the testimony and law that is presented by the Lord’s servants and it prepares the saints for the coming tribulation by sealing them up to eternal life…

    I think the testimony is related to section 76 and the law is related to section 42

    Nevertheless, a clear, breakdown and detailed explanation is difficult to find in the scriptures or in the teachings given by Joseph Smith.

    Joseph Smith was apparently commanded by the Lord to not reveal exactly what the phrase meant from what I can tell although he used it several times in speaking to the elders, as if it should just be understood, and I believe that it was generally understood, as suggested above.

    Nevertheless I believe there is a much deeper explanation.

    The Times and seasons has a few statements by JS using the phrase matter of factly and they were all futuristic, indicating that very few, if any of the elders had actually successfully sealed the testimony and bound up the law in their missionary travels.

    He did make it clear that the elders needed an endowment of power that was anticipated to be received in the Kirtland Temple before they would be able to go forth in power to seal the testimony and bind up the law.

    the promise of going forth in power seemed to initially be referring to high priests that would be among the 144,000 with the seal of God in their foreheads.

    But when the ultimate endowment did not take place in the temple and the secret ushering in of the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham took place, the trajectory of missionary work changed and the apostles and elders, many of which were not high priests, were sent forth instead to complete the prophecy of Christ in 3rd Nephi, wherein the knowledge of the gospel would be taken from the gentiles that had rejected the fulness, to the house of Israel. That is when foreign missions were sent up.

    Shortly after the disappointment of not getting the complete endowment in the Kirtland temple, wherein it appears that the ultimate endowment was never realized, there is a interesting tidbit in the Kirtland record book wherein it appears a certain Elder Hedlock proposed to have the meaning of this phrase clearly explained.

    “… Hedlock proposed the following to know the power of those Elders Sent forth to bind up the Law and Seal up the testimony….first question agitated was what Do the Elders Do to bind up the Law and Seal up the testimony. “[See 1 March 1837, note 1.]

    No response is recorded in the record book. It is unknown whether the answer was given but intentionally not recorded or whether the question was simply not responded to.

    I cannot find any talk by Joseph Smith or even a reminiscence of a comment he made from someone, wherein he explained, in detail, what it means.

    For that reason, I am not sure it would be appropriate for me to postulate exactly what I think it means, however, I am going to share a few observations

    1- The original passage in the OT from which the modern version appears to come from is found in Isa 8:16 and there is an interesting reversal in the use of the terms “seal” and “bind” between the modern version and the ancient version. Note the difference:

    “bind up the law and seal up the testimony” D&C 84:84 & 109:38,46 133:72

    Bind up the testimony, seal the law Isaiah 8:5, KJV & JST 2nd Nephi 18:16

    2- I once assumed that bind and seal meant the same thing in this context and therefore it did not change the meaning of what was being said. I am now of the belief that both variations are accurate and intentional and that they do in fact reflect a distinct differentiation in the meaning they convey.

    3- I believe the OT passage is referring to a specific event that took place during JS lifetime while the Modern revelation version is referring to a future event that will take place in the future, when the Marvelous Work and a Wonder (Dispensation of the Fulness of Times) begins.

    4- The passages in Isaiah 8 leading up to verse 16, prophesy of the apostasy that would take place in Kirtland wherein the fulness would be rejected and the saints would stumble, fall and be snared.

    the passages following the verse in question inform us that God hides his face from the saints after the testimony is bound up and the law is sealed.

    That narrative may provide a huge hint as to how the ancient passage differs from the modern passage.

    5- The narrative in sections 84, 109 and 133 may provide another contextual hint as to how the two passages differ in meaning.

    6- When Christ speaks of the “law and the prophets” the phrase essentially means the “law and the testimony of the prophets”, in other words, it means essentially the same thing.

    7- The angel with the seal of the living God also may have to do with providing information relative to the deeper meaning of this interesting and important doctrine

    8- The following passages that were added to the Gospel of Luke may also be helpful”

    He who hath received his testimony, hath set to his seal that God is true.

    For he whom God hath sent, speaketh the words of God; for God giveth him not the Spirit by measure, for he dwelleth in him, even the fullness.

    The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hands.

    And he who believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and shall receive of his fullness. But he who believeth not the Son, shall not receive of his fullness; for the wrath of God is upon him.

  26. Lol, Watcher. You have obviously given it plenty of thought and examination. I’m sure Brand has, too. I wonder if he will agree with your analysis?

    I am curious, though, about one thing, OWIW, regarding your many writings. I don’t think I ever recall you ever writing something to the effect, “The Spirit said [this] to me or manifested [that] to me.” It seems that in all your writings, these are just your best guesses, based upon the key word and historical record research and pondering you’ve done. Maybe you have said that you’ve gotten an understanding from the Spirit somewhere, and I just missed it, but I don’t think I have ever heard you say something to that effect.

    So, I will ask you, have you gotten a confirmation of the Spirit about any of the doctrines you have elaborated on in the past? If so, which ones? Or are these just unconfirmed beliefs that may be modified later on when further light and knowledge from the Lord come to you?

  27. Btw, I agree with this, that this is what it is, in a nutshell:

    It appears at face value that the phrase has to do with accomplishing two different things once the Lord’s servants go forth IN POWER.

    It delivers the wicked over to the buffetings of Satan who reject the testimony and law that is presented by the Lord’s servants and it prepares the saints for the coming tribulation by sealing them up to eternal life.

  28. That may just be the first or second thing you and I have agreed upon in years… I am going to have to rethink my position on that! LOL

    Although I feel there are certain things that I have personally received a confirmation of the spirit about, I have never wanted anyone to believe anything I teach on the strength of me making a claim that I have received a personal revelation about it.

    When I began blogging about seven years ago I wanted to do so on the platform of presenting ideas and interpretations to shake people out of the traditions that have been handed down from their fathers, and to cause people to ponder other interpretive possibilities.

    The main goal, however, is simply to drive people back into the scriptures with new eyes, relying on the Holy Ghost.

    I want people to let go of all of the programming and indoctrination they have received in the church and to simply read the scriptures literally while attempting to beseech the spirit for a true understanding of what is really being said.

    I have never wanted the responsibility of being responsible for someone else’s faith or salvation.

    That is why I put the disclaimer on the side of my blog that only the scriptures should be taken seriously, not my interpretations thereof.

    Furthermore, I am convinced that the saints were delivered over to Satan for a “little season” that does not end until the 3rd watch begins. For that reason, I think we all labor under a strong delusion.

    Having said that. I do think that God still inspires people and that some people have a gift for discerning truth and that they have a responsibility to share what they have learned.

    It is difficult for me to not speak about certain interpretations with passion because I really do belief many of the things I talk about very strongly.

    For example, there is no question in my mind that the events in section 110 are true and did happen which is why I take exception to the way Snuffer tried to build a case of doubt against it.

    But I am not going to tell everyone I received a revelation that it is true, I simply explained why I accept it as true and I provided numerous evidences using other passages of scripture that I believe testify of its veracity and then I am happy to let each person be responsible for their own ability to receive personal revelation on the topic.

    On a side note, the JST passages I mentioned above note that most people are “giveth.. the Spirit by measure” as opposed to having the fulness of the spirit. Since we only have a measure of the spirit and since we have been warned multiple times in scripture that there are seducing spirits and that Satan is the God of this world, I think we should not take ourselves to seriously.

  29. The common interpretation is that Joseph Smith was the Seer prophesied in 2 Nephi 3.

    You’re saying there will be another seer. What in 2 Nephi 3 did Joseph Smith not fulfill?

  30. Sorry, should have read the comments first. Please disregard my previous comment/question.

  31. @ Huk; Verse 13, It’s open for dissection, but I won’t add anything more.

  32. Actually, Huk, it’s my fault for not putting all that information I wrote in the comments into the body of the post. I have a habit of writing a post and then afterward, upon further pondering, inserting more info into the comments that follow. Or, it may be that I was just too lazy or in too great a rush to include stuff into the post. So I use the comments as addendums to my posts, which, of course, necessitates reading the comments, also. Not everyone wants to do that, of course. It’s an annoying habit, I guess, but one that sticks with me. Especially since I don’t want to make each post book length. But if you include the follow-up comments, they get to be book length anyway, huh? So I can’t win for losing.

  33. A recent thought of mine brought a big smile to my face as I contemplated, yet again, the various things the Josephite would restore, according to my understanding. (And I have not given my full understanding of all these things on this blog, but to my sons I have revealed these things–and they are giddy with excitement, as am I.) For as I reviewed all these things, a new thought and understanding came upon me: namely, that the Josephite would take us back to the Articles of Confederation. In other words, he is going to use his power (the power God gives him) to abolish our present system of government under the current Constitution, but will not take us directly into anarchy, but back to the confederation that existed under the Articles.

    I must suppose that the Articles will be perfected by him, somehow, without the creation of a central government (which is what we have now through the Constitution), but of a true federal government (confederation of states.)

    (The thing we call now the Federal Government in reality is not a federal government, at all, but a central government. Yet it uses the title “federal,” nonetheless.)

    I don’t want to give any more of my many thoughts on this issue, except to say that this is not just a random thought but is my current, instantaneous and prophetic understanding.of the political future of the United States. In other words, the United States is not going to cease to exist once we go back to the Articles–for it existed first under the Articles and going back to the Articles does not and will not destroy the nation or national identity–but conditions will be radically changed by this man and we will be again, “these (plural) United States” as opposed to “the (singular) United States.”

    I will leave this link to “The Anti-Federalists Were Right” for those who might want a different view of history, regarding the Constitution and the federal government it created:

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2007/03/laurence-m-vance/the-anti-federalists-were-right/

    I guess I will give one more understanding, in case there are those who feel the United States is going to self-implode sometime soon. And it is this prophecy given by Alma:

    And now, I will speak unto you concerning those twenty-four plates, that ye keep them, that the mysteries and the works of darkness, and their secret works, or the secret works of those people who have been destroyed, may be made manifest unto this people; yea, all their murders, and robbings, and their plunderings, and all their wickedness and abominations, may be made manifest unto this people; yea, and that ye preserve these interpreters.

    For behold, the Lord saw that his people began to work in darkness, yea, work secret murders and abominations; therefore the Lord said,

    if they did not repent they should be destroyed from off the face of the earth.

    And the Lord said:

    I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.

    And now, my son, these interpreters were prepared that the word of God might be fulfilled, which he spake, saying:

    I will bring forth out of darkness unto light all their secret works and their abominations; and except they repent I will destroy them from off the face of the earth; and I will bring to light all their secrets and abominations, unto every nation that shall hereafter possess the land.

    Alma (37:21-25)

    It is my understanding that the abridgment that Moroni made of the plates of Ether in the Book of Mormon does not constitute a revelation of all the wicked deeds that the Jaredites did. In order for that prophecy to be fulfilled, the plates of Ether must come forth and be translated into English and go forth througout the land. This means that the United States of America cannot cease to exist until the full account of all the Jaredite wickedness, which is in the unabridged account found on the plates of Ether, goes forth. Nevertheless, the United States of America can be brought back to the Articles prior to that time.

  34. I’ve mentioned this somewhere else on this blog, but it bears repeating, given the comment above about a return to the Articles of Confederation. If you do an Internet search you will actually find certain people, such as libertarians, espousing a return to the Articles. These people are, of course, in the minority. But among the same group is a hope or desire, or even a prediction, of future secession among some of the states that make up the union. My understanding, though, given previously on this blog and now repeated again, is that “there ain’t gonna be no secession.” As much as I, as an anarchist, agree with the idea and principle of secession, yet as a latter-day saint studying the prophecies, and also according to my understanding, I cannot see this at any time in the future occurring. We will go from Constitution to Articles, and it won’t be by any state seceding from the union. I have no idea how this will occur. (Well, maybe I have some ideas… 😉 ) But I do not know for a fact how it will occur. And I must admit that the very idea of it happening is absolutely preposterous. Which again makes me smile, since it will be yet another miracle that occurs through this man. For surely it is impossible for us to go backwards in government, to undo the centralization of power and go back to a decentralized form. Surely, this cannot be. And yet, I don’t see this happening via secession nor by bloodshed, but peacefully. Which is even more remarkable, or an even greater miracle, in my view. Anyway, the secessionists don’t have a prophetic leg to stand on. (And I guess time will tell whether my prophetic legs are solid or weak…)

  35. I have had over the past couple of days some more thoughts about the Josephite, as if the time is fast approaching for his appearance, one of which thoughts I guess I will put down here.

    I have written previously on this blog that this man will be noted for the miracles that he performs, but I want to categorically state that when this man is taken out of his weakness, it will be, somehow, announced.

    And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. (Hebrews 11:32-34)

    The act of making strong out of weakness will be miraculous, performed by his faith, and when it happens, word is going to go forth about this miracle, and there will be other miracles that will occur at the same time. And from thence he will continue to perform miracles from day to day.

    So, my point, I guess, to this comment, is that I suppose the devil will have, or already has, imposters in readiness, who will make similar claims to his, but we are looking for, or I am looking for, the announcement of some great miracle, with the start of people testifying to the same, that they saw the miracle and cannot account for it. As the devil cannot perform miracles, his imposters either will not claim miracles, or will claim to have worked miracles (but nobody witnessed), or will have false witnesses present and then claim to perform miracles and have the false witnesses falsely testify, or, finally, will use tricks to deceive people into believing that they saw a miracle. Those are the devil’s options. But there will be an announcement, and the people testifying to witnessing the real miracles this guy does will be incontrovertible. In other words, these will be everyday people from all walks of life literally dumbfounded by what they see, with no explanation as to how it could be a trick.

    Now, I previously said that this man would likely, even in his weakness, be accosted or that his enemies would try to destroy him while he is still in his weakness, (which is the only time possible that he can be harmed), but that the Lord would protect him anyway, yet, while in his weakness, there won’t be miracles of protection, just, how do I put it?, just divine misdirection of his enemies, so that they stumble and cannot accomplish their goals. However, it may be that when this man comes out of his weakness, his enemies no longer get simple “misdirection” for their misconduct towards him, but that they, unfortunately for them, will receive the application of his faith against them. Now that he is strong, he can protect himself, and will do so, to their utter dismay.

    So, upon this man’s strengthening, I expect to see two kinds of miracles spoken of: one in which he is favored, and one in which his enemies are utterly confounded. Thus, when the words of the witnesses go forth and we begin to hear the stories, we will hear of the great transformation of this man, that can only be accounted for by the power of God, and also we will hear of some great curse that has come upon his enemies, that can only be accounted for by the power of God. But these stories may take time to get around, being spoken of by word of mouth and also reported in the news. Nevertheless, I fully expect some sort of announcement to go forth immediately, letting the general public know that he is now out (of his weakness.)

    Lastly, I wrote above: “as if the time is fast approaching for his appearance,” but the spirit of prophecy and revelation always seems to me to be urgent and about to happen, yet may be years away. Nevertheless, the sense I get is that this man, although still technically in his weakness, has now been significantly strengthened, to the point that he is, perhaps, already at the threshold and just needs to step through. Time will tell if my perceptions are correct.

    Oh, what the heck, I’ll share yet another thought, and that is this: this man’s miracles will be the standard impossible ones spoken of in the scriptures, and also new ones which are likewise as impossible, yet never done before, but which people will be able to believe that they are within the realm of what is possible for miracles. But also there will be other miracles, which those who believe in miracles will consider to be utterly impossible, even for miracles. In other words, the impression I’m getting is that some of this man’s miracles will cause a miracle worker to say, “That’s impossible! That’s inconceivable! You can’t do that!” That’s how big these miracles will be. His application of faith will be orders of magnitude greater than any miracle worker that ever preceded him, for he will be conceiving of ways to apply his gift of faith that no one has ever even dreamed of.

  36. Please don’t take this as my understanding. It is just a curious thought that I had today, as I was pondering, yet again, upon the 2 Nephi 3 chapter of the Book of Mormon. In particular, verse fourteen:

    And thus prophesied Joseph, saying: Behold, that seer will the Lord bless; and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded

    So, the thought was this: that one way in which this might possibly be fulfilled, could be a return of the miracle manifested at the Tower of Babel, namely, a confounding of the languages of his enemies, so that they won’t be able to understanding anyone, nor anyone understand them. I found the thought curious because, well, this is supposed to be a restoration of all things, after all. Also, such a confounding of tongues, manifested again, upon the general unbelieving populace, would require the manifestation of the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues to go forth, in order to preach the gospel to these people. The confounded languages would be either new languages that no one has ever heard of, or ancient and dead languages that no one has ever heard of. Either way, current linguistics would be incapable of communicating with the affected peoples. Also, such a miracle would have a devastating effect upon an enemy. Psychologically, it certainly would bring men to their very knees. Anyway, whether this confounding scripture will find partial fulfillment in a confounding of the languages or not, I don’t know, but I do know that this guy is going to have this option and ability, to cast such a curse upon his enemies. Those who continue to oppose him after beholding these mighty miracles will have to be utter fools.

    Yet another thought I had–and again, these are just random and curious thoughts–was that it could be that this guy is somehow protected by the Lord, by being hidden, so that no one will harm him while the Lord is raising him up. Joseph Smith was attacked by the devil during his first vocal prayer and afterwards was severely persecuted until he was finally killed by his enemies. Surely it should be expected that anyone under the devil’s influence will be guided by the evil spirit to harm and, if possible, kill the Josephite. And the only time to kill him would be while he is still weak. So, it may be that the man is hidden somehow, by the Lord, to keep him out of the sights of the devil’s agents. It all seemed like a scalable pattern to me. For example, verse five says, “the Messiah should be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the spirit of power, unto the bringing of them out of darkness unto light—yea, out of hidden darkness and out of captivity unto freedom.” I wondered whether this hidden aspect of the remnant would be begun by first hiding the Josephite while he is weak, so that when he comes out of this weakness and is made strong, he becomes the first brought “out of hidden darkness.” The pattern then repeats on a larger scale.

    So, this protection that the Josephite is under, in which the Lord preserves him from both the devil and his mortal agents, not by His miraculous and matchless power, for the man is still weak, and thus no such power is shown, as yet, but by hiding him away from the populace, so that no “accidents” and harm can come to him, would fulfill the scripture:

    But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. (3 Nephi 21:10)

    which scripture I attribute to the Josephite. And then after the power is manifested and the man is no longer weak, then that preservation will be via the miracles of God.

  37. hi,
    u call him joseph-nephi-lehi , suggest possibly that they are different seers etc., but what if he is named after Israel and encompasses all of their blessings?(a bit like that covenant within covenant thing u mentioned before, or 12 over virgin in revelation 12). Just a thought or a question rather. whats ur thoughts? thanx

  38. Hi, boris. My understanding is that he will call himself Joseph-Nephi. (He may use Joseph-Nephi-Lehi on official documents or genealogies.) His given name or names, though, could be anything, I suppose, including Israel, etc., except that at least one of those given names must be the name of his father.

  39. hi thanks for a swift reply and sorry for all the typos but i didnt know how to edit and correct them. my point with Josephite restorers name being possibly Israel was that Joseph-Nephi-Lehi is very unusual even to faithfull LDS members to call their kids like that. Whereas, if he was called Israel it would be a bit like the samaritan woman by the well speaking to Jesus calling Israel ‘our father’. So, point being, he could claim israel to be his Father and through his lineage claim the blessings promised to joseph, lehi,nephi etc. Is that even make sense? Asking you coz its blogs like this I learn from and for some unknown to me reason Ive got an interest in this topic and u seem much more enlightened than me. thnx

  40. Hi, boris. See the Book of Mormon surnames: the meaning of the -ites and “people of” post and its follow-up corrective comment to learn where this understanding I have about the Josephite’s name comes from. If this seer is indeed a Josephite, as I understand he will be, then he will carry the surname “Joseph-Nephi,” despite its unusualness. Also, I wrote somewhere on this blog (but can’t remember where) about the promise the Lord made to Nephi concerning all those who called themselves after his name, so the Josephite (and all the other Nephites that come forth) must bear the name of Nephi to be considered a real Nephite. Alma 3:17 says:

    17 And again, I say he that departeth from thee shall no more be called thy seed; and I will bless thee, and whomsoever shall be called thy seed, henceforth and forever; and these were the promises of the Lord unto Nephi and to his seed.

  41. k thanks, much appreciated x


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