Deep Waters: What would have happened if Lucifer had won the vote?

In our pre-mortal existence, we took sides as to who we would follow, Jesus or Lucifer. Two-thirds of us went with Jesus, while one-third went with Satan. Jesus had accepted the plan of the Father, while Satan had sought to amend it. The amendment was sufficiently attractive that one-third of us went with it. I’ve never been in a meeting that has fully discussed the ramifications of a winning vote by Lucifer (other than with what4anarchy.) I intend to publicly discuss this topic now in this post.

The universe consists of a family of gods, with angels attending them and other lesser creations. Each individual that achieves godhood, does so through the laws of the universe, which operate on the principle of agency, not coercion.

“The powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness….When we undertake … to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men,…the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.” (D&C 121: 36-37)

“No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; by kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy; that he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.” (D&C 121: 41-44)

The above principle is heavenly and applies equally to God as it does to man. God cannot use coercion ever, or he will cease to be God.

Each exalted individual in the family of gods was guaranteed their godhood forever. Should a single one of these gods lose his or her godhood, in other words, should any of them cease to be a god, all of them cease to be gods together. It is a domino chain that is only as strong as its weakest member. As there are no weak members, the chain remains strong forever. They remain gods because they desire to remain gods. And thus it is.

Nevertheless, there is a risk to godhood. Satan sought to exploit that risk. The family of gods work by the principle of agency, not by coercion. Contrary to what you may believe, God the Father accomplishes all things through free agents. Compulsion is anti-god, so to speak, as is lying, etc. So, if Satan can make any of the gods lie or commit anything contrary to their own laws, they all cease to be gods and the universe loses faith in them, stops honoring them, and all creation reverts back to what it was prior to creation, returning to outer darkness from which we all came.

But no god freely will commit an act that causes them to lose their power, which is understandable. So, the risk is minimal. Nevertheless, as they operate on the principle of agency, Satan sought to force the hand of God by taking advantage of the law of common consent. The law of common consent is a heavenly law, not an earthly invention. We voted for Jesus to be our Savior, after he was called of God to that holy office. God never forces anyone to do anything, so Jesus was not forced upon us. We could accept him or reject him. Satan understood that if the vote went his way, if 51% of us voted for him (Lucifer), that the plan of the Father would have been frustrated. So, there was a possibility that the Father could be frustrated, through the common consent of his children. God allows for this possibility and so God the Father and all other gods had their godhood put at risk during this voting time.

Satan didn’t want to just be the Savior, suffering for the sins of mankind. His intention was to do away with agency altogether. If agency were to be done away with, as it is guaranteed by God to all created things in the universe, it would have meant that God would have ceased to be God, as he would have been caught in a lie. All creation would have lost respect and honor for him. The God that promised heavenly Father his eternal exaltation would also cease to be a god, and a chain reaction would result, all gods losing all power. The result would have been the dissolution of the created universe. (See 2 Ne. 2: 13. If there is no God, all things must vanish away.) Everything in it would have returned into that lake of fire and brimstone, or what we now call outer darkness, only then it wouldn’t be an outer darkness, as there would be no inner light (the created universe) to distinguish between the two locations.

A common misconception that LDS have is that when Satan said, “wherefore, give me thine honor,” that he merely wanted the power of God. But it wasn’t like that, at all. Satan didn’t want the universe, all the gods, and everything else (including himself) to return to outer darkness. Yet, his amendment, had it been approved by vote, would have had that very result. And he knew this and so did we. So, he added a requirement to his amendment that was needed to make it work: he required that God worship him (honor him.)

If God worshiped Satan, then Satan beats God. The honor of all creation which is directed at God, the greatest of all, now becomes directed at the individual that beats God. So, when the amendment is enacted, agency becomes suspended, coercion rules, and God and every other member of the family of gods cease to be gods, the universe still has faith in one individual: Satan, the being who conquered all of god-dom.

Satan’s cunning plan wasn’t in that he would rule over this particular God (our heavenly Father,) but that the whole family of gods would be disintegrated and return to the lake of fire and brimstone. The created universe would still remain created, under a new system, a new principle, the principle of coercion, with only one single god, Lucifer, ruling everything. The universe would be reorganized according to Lucifer’s vision of an ideal universe.

So, it wasn’t that Lucifer wanted the honor of God, it was that he needed it to make his plan work. Without the honor of God, all created things revert back to that state prior to creation, including Lucifer himself.

The appeal of Lucifer’s plan was that no one, not a single particle, would return to outer darkness, from whence we all came prior to creation. The only victims in this plan would be the gods, who, through agency, allowed for the possibility of souls returning to outer darkness in misery. His selling points probably were that although God is loving, etc., it is not fair that a single soul should return to outer darkness, therefore, they (the gods) deserve this fate, as they have assigned this very fate to others. Or, he may have justified his amendment to the Father’s plan by saying that we would go into outer darkness and re-create the souls of the former gods, bringing them back into the universe so that they didn’t suffer for all eternity, though they would not obtain their former glory.

So, in our vote between Jesus and Satan, outer darkness and who would be cast into it played a big part of our decision-making process. In the Father’s plan, only sons of perdition would return to outer darkness, of their own agency, not being willing to repent. In Satan’s amendment to the plan, only the gods of the universe would return to outer darkness, having lost all power and being compelled to go, and not a single soul or particle (other than the family of gods) would go back into those outer regions.

We already know what happened. God the Father and the family of gods were before us, we could see them and know of their love for us, of their qualities, yet despite that tremendous influence, one-third of us sided with Satan and rebelled when the vote went in favor of Jesus and the Father’s plan of agency.

There is one more aspect of this topic that I will address in a follow-up post.

Next Deep Waters article: Deep Waters:Lehi’s model of the universe

Previous Deep Waters article: Deep Waters: How many wives? How many husbands?

Complete List of Articles authored by LDS Anarchist



  1. Interesting. I must admit that I have often considered the same scenario but nowhere near the depth that you have. The thing that I have always wondered was, if there was no influence of evil in the pre-existence then how did Lucifer become the way he did? I understand that in order for agency to work a choice has to be given, one or another. So did Satan become evil and unclean in that very moment during the council or did it come before that? If it came before that, then why was he allowed to remain in the presence of God along with the rest of us?

    As for “what if Lucifer had won?”, I think that is a moot point. Since all things are in front of God I doubt that He would have presented a situation in which He was in risk of losing the vote. Also, if all of us had chosen Lucifer, would God really have put his plan into action or would we all have been cast into outer darkness at that point? I know it is only speculation though. I guess it’s like what happened in the Garden. So much of Christianity believes that what happened was a mistake, in that case God has no foreknowledge and didn’t know what choice Adam would make. I think we can make the same parallel in this case. God already knew the outcome, if was not in favor of Him, a council would not have been called and no vote would have been made.


  2. I’ve always assumed that there was a Satan that existed prior to Lucifer becoming a Satan, and that Lucifer learned of this counter principle of coercion through him. Moses 4: 1, 3’s use of “that Satan” often has conjured up in my mind that the Lord might have been saying “that particular Satan, not any of the others.”

    I think Lucifer became Satan, the sinner, at the moment he rebelled, not sooner. Obviously, the formulation of this amendment to the Father’s plan came earlier, but I don’t think that is necessarily a sin. Variety, after all, is a part of the heavens. Lucifer merely wanted to take a different direction (perhaps a direction that had been done before in another universe?)

    Your second paragraph has made me think of another post to write. Note to self: write about the faith of God.

  3. I have a question of my own, God needed Jesus’ plan, but Jesus’ plan needed Lucifer. Someone needed to play the part, be the badguy, so to speak. If there was no war in heaven, there would have been no one cast out to tempt us or to try us. With out Lucifer we could not prove ourselves, there would be no need for a Savior and the results would have been just as bad. In the temple we are taught that Satans’ role is pivotal…if this has been played out before in “one eternal round” then is it a given that every time this happens someone will rebel and fill the part of tempter.

    I guess what I am getting at is wondering if Lucifer was set up. I don’t know how else to ask the question; someone had to do it, someone always has to do it. Everyone knew Lucifers’ personality, was this something he did on his own, or was there some great secret combination in Heaven that he was the front man for?

  4. My understanding is that Satan’s role is not now, nor ever was, needed for the Father’s plan to work. During the Millennium Satan will be bound for a thousand years. That’s a lot of time in which the children of men will not be tempted by him. It works because, according to Lehi, (mortal) man could not act save he was enticed by the one side or the other.

    Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. (2 Ne. 2: 16)

    All that is required is that either the good side or the bad side entice man, for him to be empowered to make a decision concerning following good or bad. Satan, then, is unnecessary to the Father’s plan, nevertheless, Satan is allowed to remain in the kingdom because, among other reasons, the Father has given him a purpose, even that of the tempter.

    Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God. (2 Ne. 2: 12)

    And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man… (2 Ne. 2: 15)

    Only things that have purpose remain in the kingdom of God (the created universe. See Deep Waters: Lehi’s model of the universe for more on the created universe.) Once Satan and his angels have fulfilled their purpose, after the probation is ended and the final day of judgment comes, they have no more purpose in the plan of the Father, and as they have no faith or free agency, meaning they have no power to remain in the Father’s created universe, they must “return again to their own place” (D&C 88: 32) from whence they came. (See The role of agency in political systems.)

    In the temple we learn certain things about Satan and others, but not everything that is spoken by Satan can be taken at face value, even if spoken in the temple. He mixes truth with error, or gives partial truth. Even the Lord doesn’t reveal all from the start. We can be assured that the Father had a plan for the Fall of Adam to take place, even without Satan’s interference. Nevertheless, as Lucifer desired the role of adversary and destroyer of free agency, the Father gave him according to his desires, as he always does. (See The role of agency in political systems for more on this principle.)

    Another evidence that Satan is not necessary is in the Lord’s statements during mortality. “No man taketh [my life] from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” (John 10: 18 ) Jesus sacrificed himself. Satan couldn’t cause anyone to kill him, because no one had power to kill him. Satan’s tempting of those under his influence to inflict mutilation and pain upon the Savior’s body was not sufficient to work out the Atonement, which was chiefly done in the garden of Gethsemane by the Savior alone. Thus, the Savior alone worked out the suffering of the Atonement (Satan couldn’t inflict the necessary pain and anguish), he alone gave up the ghost (Satan couldn’t kill him) and he alone resurrected himself (Satan couldn’t, nor wouldn’t even if he could, bring him back to life.) So, during the Savior’s mission to atone for our sins, what purpose had Satan in that? Not a single purpose other than to fulfill the prophecies that he would tempt mortals to do the very things they did to Jesus. Jesus could have worked out the Atonement just as well without Satan and his angels on the Earth, as he did with them here, and the Millennium shows that God’s children are capable of working out their salvation just as well without Satan, as they can with him.

    So, my understanding is that Lucifer did not get set up. Everything he did, he did on his own, thinking to gain the ultimate prize.

  5. I never for a moment meant to infer that the devil sacrificed Christ. I only wanted to imply that the devil was necessary for God and Jehovah to accomplish their work of bringing to pass our immortality and eternal life. The devil only has power as God allows, not the other way around. However, the devil is an integral part of the plan that was accepted and that is being played out. I understand that even in the temple Satan acts tougher than he really is, but I was referring to what the Father says about Satan, not anything Satan says about himself. In the lines when the Father mentions Lucifer for the first time in the endowment, and says he will be allowed to tempt Adam and Eve, he says “if”, which I take to mean that the plan does not get rolling until Satan has done his part.

    There are mentions in early discourses regarding the necessity of Satan, John Taylor said at a funeral sermon:

    “Permit me to say there are eternal laws that exist with the Gods in the eternal worlds, and from which they cannot depart, and to which they are bound in their acts…and that it is absolutely necessary that men should be placed in a state of trial, in a state of probation. It was just as necessary that Satan, if you please, should exercise his power as that God should exercise his. This is a thing that is not always understood by men, and, in fact, they understand very little about it. We are told, however, that ‘It must needs be that there is an opposition in all things,’ good and evil, light and darkness, happiness and misery, corruption and incorruption, life and death, heaven and hell.” JD 21:15

    At another time he said:

    “There have been different agencies at work throughout this world’s history. Lucifer has been and is one of these agencies. There was a garden planted, and Adam and Eve were placed in it, and there they had communion with God. There was another being whose name was Lucifer…As it was necessary that there should be a God, a man, an earth, and a heaven, it was also necessary that there should be a devil, that man might be tried…Indeed, in the economy of God, it was not only necessary that man, but the Savior also should be perfected by suffering…” JD 25:304

    But, say you are right, say there is no need for a devil, I am still not sure what you mean when you say;

    “All that is required is that either the good side or the bad side entice man, for him to be empowered to make a decision concerning following good or bad. Satan, then, is unnecessary to the Father’s plan”

    The Doctrine and Covenants teaches “And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves…” (Doctrine and Covenants 29:39)

    How could there be a “bad side” if God is the only influence. You quote from 2 Nephi chapter 2, if you go a few verses before where you quoted (mainly 11-13), it spells out pretty plainly that there has to be opposition, without it God can not exist. It seems from Lehi’s talk with Jacob and from the Doctrine and Covenants that Satan is necessary.

    You also say:

    “We can be assured that the Father had a plan for the Fall of Adam to take place, even without Satan’s interference.”

    I am not so sure, in response to WW Phelps who had said we could do well with out the devil, Brigham Young replied:

    “…we could not do very well without a devil. No, sir, you are quite aware of that; you know we could not do without him. If there had been no devil to tempt Eve, she never would have got her eyes opened. We need a devil to stir up the wicked to purify the Saints…”JD 1:170

    So, I return to my original question, how was it Lucifer became the devil. Someone had to do it. Was Jehovah’s plan chosen in hopes that someone would rebel, thus filling the needed slot for a devil? I do not believe (as I think you have said) that anything is left to chance in the plans of God. So God (and presumably Jehovah) knew that Lucifer would become Satan making Jehovah’s plan workable. When did they know? Was Lucifer pegged from the beginning? I guess that is a possibility as he was a liar from the beginning (Doctrine and Covenants 93:25), but I am not sure. Just by the fact he was able to suggest a plan in one of the Grand Councils of the Gods shows he was a person of no small consequence, Joseph Smith tells us he “was in authority” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:25). Was he given that authority to put him in a high enough position that he could fall far enough to fill a needed role? I have heard it said many times God gives us the rope to hang ourselves, was God giving Lucifer rope? I do not mean to imply God was acting facetiously, only that he knew what Lucifer would do anyway and just allowed him the opportunity.

    Given there are secret combinations here on earth, I am inclines to muse over whether or not there were secret combinations before the earth. In asking if Lucifer was set up, I did not necessarily mean by God, may be by others. In Moses, while the Lord is rebuking Cain, he renames him Perdition and says:

    “…for thou wast also before the world.” Moses 5:24

    What does that mean? Was he Perdition before the world was? Then who is Lucifer? My understanding of how you got to keep your first estate was by accepting Jehovah’s plan, which obviously Cain did. I do not think any other action was necessary to keep your first estate. So Cain came to earth, got a mortal body, was baptized, received the Priesthood (otherwise he never would have been offering sacrifices), then we find out he was called Perdition before the world was.

    Was he the ring leader? Did he let Lucifer be the fall guy so that he (Cain) could receive a body? With a body he is one up on Satan, and it is not just a little bit up, he is way up.

    May be I should spend my time thinking about more useful things…

  6. PallasAthena,

    That is a great response! I love it when people engage in discussion citing scriptures to back up their points.

    First, let me say that I never thought for a moment that you were implying that the devil sacrificed Jesus. I only mentioned it as an evidence that Satan isn’t a necessary part of the plan of salvation, as he had no part in the Atonement, and although he had a part in the Fall, he didn’t need to have a part. The Lord, after giving commandments to Adam concerning the trees, left Adam with the understanding that He would come back to give further instructions. We are not told what those further instructions were to be, but for all we know they were the original plans of initiating the Fall without Satan’s interference. In the time the Lord was gone, came Satan, tempting. Satan’s intent is always to frustrate the plans of God. However, despite his interference, the plans of God went forth, as God had already made contingency plans for the possibility of Satan’s temptations being heeded.

    Some points to keep in mind:

    1) In the council in heaven, when the Father presented his plan to us, is it reasonable to think that it contained the need for a devil to tempt us here on Earth and that he said something like, “The plan requires one of you to be a Savior and redeem all of mankind that exercises faith and also that one of you become a devil and be cast out of the kingdom into outer darkness after performing your work. Are there any volunteers for the Savior and devil positions?” Such a scenario, that the plan already contained a need that one of God’s children must commit spiritual suicide and become a devil in order for the plan to work would naturally repel all of God’s children from it. Were God to present such a plan to us, I highly doubt any of us would agree to it. It is more reasonable to assume that the Father’s plan worked with only the need of a Savior. No one needed to commit spiritual suicide. Such a plan would be attractive to all.

    2) The following scriptures:

    Behold, I gave unto him [Adam] that he should be a free agent unto himself. (D&C 29: 35)

    And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves. (D&C 29: 39)

    So, is the logical conclusion to be drawn from these scriptures that God gave unto Adam to be an agent unto himself by giving unto him Satan to tempt him? Satan, then, is the gift of God to mankind?

    And in that day [the Millennium] Satan shall not have power to tempt any man. (D&C 101: 28 )

    Thus, if Satan tempting man allows man to be agents unto themselves (meaning they are free agents or have free agency), does this mean that during the Millennium no one will have free agency? Would not such a thing destroy the plan of God, which is all about us having and keeping free agency?

    And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet. (D&C 29: 39)

    And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good. (Moses 6: 55)

    And their children shall grow up [in the Millennium] without sin unto salvation. (D&C 45: 58 )

    As children in the Millennium grow up without sin, they never taste the bitter and therefore, they never know to prize the good nor could they know the sweet. Thus, won’t this make the Millennium as bland as can be, despite all the good around? If the children of the Millennium grow up without sin, doesn’t this mean that the ordinance of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins will be done away with, as well as the principle of repentance?

    Obviously, these scriptures don’t mean these things, yet taken at face value, they appear to bear such meaning. It may be better to take up the real meaning of D&C 29:39 and other scriptures in a separate post, along with the quotes of Taylor and Young.

    Also, I’ll have to do a temple session as I don’t recall the “if” you are referring to. Thanks for the comments.

  7. I seem to have taken this post off topic, for which I apologize, but I feel I must respond and after this comment I will try to refrain from making any more off topic comments.

    You say in the original post that God can not coerce us, and we all know God can not deceive us, yet you imply that some of the “further instructions” he planned to give to Adam and Eve in the garden would have resulted in the fall. That can not be, God had already commanded them not to partake of the fruit, to then command then to partake would have been a contradiction. Even if He had instigated the fall then the fall would be the result of God not of man and God would have been responsible for our fallen state instead of us. If God was responsible for our fallen state, it would have been His responsibility to get us out of the fallen state.

    In the temple, when God tells Jehovah that they will allow Lucifer to tempt Adam and Eve, He says “if” they give in to Lucifer’s temptation, then they (God and Jehovah) will provide a Savior for us. Implying that if they don’t give in to Lucifer’s tempting then there will be no need for a Savior. By allowing Lucifer to tempt them and cause the fall, there was a way for man to enter a fallen state without it being Gods fault! Any other way would have resulted in the involvement of God in the fall of man and therefore would not have allowed the plan to work. For Jehovah’s plan to work, man needed to fall by his own action, removing himself from God, not God removing Himself from man.

    The plan could not have worked without a Satan, because without Satan God would have had to instigate the fall and thereby making it a voluntary Savior unnecessary because He would have been able to fix the problem He created. As it is, we are unable to fix the problem we created, requiring a Savior.

    Returning to 2 Nephi 2, I read what Lehi says as requiring a devil. I would quote it here but I would end up quoting pretty much from verse 7 to 27. Opposition in all things, even God must have an opposite or He would cease to exist. Then I turn to Moses 6, verses 48 to 56, again to long to quote here, if God were the reason behind the fall and not man via Satan, this passage would be ludicrous, God would be talking about a situation he had caused.

    Okay, I’m done, I have more to say but feel I have done enough off topic speak.

  8. I don’t mean to proffer heresy, but if you consider the Adam-God doctrine, it can make speculation about the fall kind of interesting.

    Suppose the father of our spirits must also be the father of our bodies. Then it is God the Father himself that takes the fall for all mankind when his body is transformed from a celestial glory to a mortal existence (supposing spirit children are created with a celestial body and physical children are created with a mortal body). God already had the power to lay down his life and take it up again, so becoming mortal and starting the human race is no big deal.

    If you take the view that Eloheim in the temple ceremony is “the grand council of gods” and not literally “God the Father”, then maybe Adam becomes God the Father.

    Honestly, I’m not sure what I think about the Adam-God doctrine. But in some ways it makes a nice and interesting sense of things. Fortunately, we will learn our mistakes in the resurrection. I get warm fuzzies when thinking about the Adam-God doctrine this way, but who is to say if I am correct? Rest assured, I doubt myself on this one. 😉

  9. PallasAthena, I totally agree with you on the necessity of Satan thing, though it is important to raise these questions about him, because his nature is almost a mystery (though not his purpose). But we are not punished for Adam’s transgression, we are punished for our own. We need a Savior not because of Adam’s fall, but because of our own fall! I think this is an important difference in what you are trying to resolve about the fall.

    I have long wondered, what does “Church of the Firstborn” really mean? We, too, are also supposed to stand as Saviors on Mount Zion one day. Does this refer only to temple work? Or is it to be taken literally, that we must play the role of Savior if future worlds of our God the Father? This is how I am tempted to makes sense of the “Church of the Firstborn” and possibly Satan’s nature. They are our “eldest” brothers, we know. Did they come from previous worlds of our God the Father? Were they already tested in their ignorance and resurrected, and now they are playing deceiver and savior in one iteration (that is, ours) of the eternal rounds of the plan of salvation?

    Again, warm fuzzies mixed with doubt! 😉

  10. PallasAthena, I now recall the “if” you speak of. Thanks for the memory refresher.

    The Lord didn’t have to give Adam a contradictory commandment in order to have Adam make a choice to partake of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We’ve got the following scripture which throws further light on this:

    And now, as I spake concerning my servant Edward Partridge, this land is the land of his residence, and those whom he has appointed for his counselors; and also the land of the residence of him whom I have appointed to keep my storehouse; wherefore, let them bring their families to this land, as they shall counsel between themselves and me. For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; for the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned. Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments? Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled? I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing. Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above. And now I give unto you further directions concerning this land. (D&C 58: 24-34)

    Day after day my wife and I strove to get my youngest child to do something that we were doing as a family. We had made a change and adopted it and my wife and I and all our other children had made the transition. No amount of encouragement, though, would change his mind. He adamantly refused to do it. What he lacked was further knowledge, though. He didn’t understand the need for the change. One day I had a talk with him and explained to him in depth what the result of not making the change would be. Instantly, once he understood the result, he himself made the change with no further encouragement needed on my part. He received more information from his father which was necessary for him to make a better decision.

    Heavenly Father was coming back to give further directions, further instructions, further light and knowledge, to essentially little children. If my sanctified youngest child (a “little child” ) can learn light and knowledge from his imperfect father, who doesn’t teach nearly as well as God the Father, surely sanctified Adam could also learn whatever the Father intended to teach him when He came back. Nevertheless, Lucifer was given the chance to tempt Adam and Eve, as this is what Lucifer desired. He is, after all, another son of God. The Father prepared a Savior in case they heeded temptation, but that doesn’t mean that he also hadn’t prepared a Savior in case they didn’t heed temptation. Either way, the Savior was prepared and through man’s choice the Fall was initiated, whether it be through deception (the devil’s temptation of Eve) or through informed decision (“counsel between themselves and [God]”), a Savior would be provided to rescue man from man’s decision.

    The opposition in all things already existed even before Lucifer became the devil. (See Deep Waters: Lehi’s model of the universe.) Also, the Millennium must be kept in mind when reviewing the scriptures that speak of children being conceived in sin, knowledge of good and bad and agency, etc. Without a devil tempting man, we essentially would have gotten Eight Thousand Years of Millennial Existence, instead of the One Thousand we’ll be getting very soon.

  11. I just quoted this in the plasma discussions of today, but maybe it answers something about the nature of these wicked spirits we’re concerned with in this discussion (TPJS, p. 208):

    …that the spirits of good men cannot interfere with the wicked beyond their prescribed bounds, for Michael, the Archangel, dared not bring a railing accusation against the devil, but said, “The Lord rebuke thee, Satan.”

    We mortal beings are the ones limited in our power against the wicked.

    To further quote Joseph Smith, Jr., with respect to some of my speculations above:

    Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
    Priesthood Everlasting
    Section Four 1839-42, pp. 157-158

    The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years. The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam’s authority.

    Adam the Oldest Man

    Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family.

    The Spirit of Man

    The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity. Our Savior speaks of children and says, Their angels always stand before my Father. The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him.

  12. I have a quick comment to the initial question as to the “ramifications of a winning vote by Lucifer”, or “What would have happened had Lucifer won the vote?”

    This is what I think would have happened if Lucifer had drawn 51% of us to his side: The scriptures would have said something like, “… and just over half of the hosts of heaven followed Lucifer’s plan.” The plan of salvation would not have been altered, compromised, or destroyed. God would not have ceased to be God. Lucifer would not have “won”.

    My point is… why is a “majority” relevant in this situation? I don’t believe it is. Two-thirds of the hosts of heaven could have followed Lucifer and God would still have chosen Jesus and His plan would not have been compromised. I don’t believe this was a “vote”, but rather, a choice.

    Similarly, Lucifer made a choice to rebel and attempt to draw away some of God’s children. His argument was apparently persuasive enough to draw away a significant number of followers. If God is a just and merciful father, every single one of these souls that followed Lucifer, as well as Lucifer himself, must have had access to enough knowledge to understand the consequences of their choice, or at least the possible consequences of their decision. This may have been our first experience of “choice” or free-agency. Ironically, Lucifer asked the hosts of heaven to employ their free-agency to give it up, or give it up to him, let him make their choices for them. This sounds like Lucifer was motivated by power and control. He wanted to be like God, perhaps, but wanted the “fast-track” to Godliness, rather than having to go down and work through his probation and farm dirt.

    I wonder what would have happened if Lucifer had NOT made that choice… had NOT become Satan. My understanding of scriptures tells me there MUST be opposition for progression. Would someone else have filled those shoes? Probably. Maybe Cain thought about it before Lucifer did, but was too curious about what a body might feel like… or maybe he just had the hots for his sister.

  13. Jgtrs,

    Two-thirds of the hosts of heaven could have followed Lucifer and God would still have chosen Jesus and His plan would not have been compromised. I don’t believe this was a “vote”, but rather, a choice.

    I believe you are right on the money here.

    I have read that the ancient texts are really trying to say that heaven was divided into 3 parts, and that one of these parts followed Satan. So the ancients were trying to described that there were 3 sides taken in the war in heaven, not that 33.3% of the hosts of heaven followed Satan.

    I have heard it speculated amongst Mormons that half (50%) of heaven followed Satan, and that the “third part” of heaven mentioned in Scripture (Rev. 12:4; D&C 29:36) is a reference to the ratio “1/3 divided by 2/3” (0.3 / 0.6 = 0.5).

    I don’t think it matters if we know what the exact percentages were. But it is necessary that we understand Satan’s role clearly and come to know that his existence is a requirement of God’s plan of salvation:

    “And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for it they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet–Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam…” D&C 29:39-40

  14. The 51% number has come up before on this blog. See here and here. Also, the heavens splitting into thirds sounds like what4anarchy’s idea of following the leader. (1/3 under Lucifer, 1/3 under Jehovah and 1/3 under Michael, for example.)

    My understanding is “as above, so below” and so what happened in the heavens has its counterpart here on Earth, namely, the law of common consent. So, the following common consent articles may apply to this discussion about percentages: Power of the Law of Common Consent and Is our procedure for sustaining a rubber stamp? and also, perhaps, this one on free agency: The role of agency in political systems. As God cannot govern without the consent of the governed, I’m not sure what the difference is between a “vote” and a “choice.” There are many ways of voting, not just in raising one’s hand, and each manifestation of a vote is a demonstration of what you are choosing or not choosing.

    It doesn’t make sense to me that the principle of “the voice of the people” applies on Earth but not in heaven, as these principles are revealed to us as heavenly principles so that we can pattern our lives according to that standard found in heaven and be empowered to establish Zion, or the kingdom of heaven on Earth.

    Finally, concerning D&C 29: 39, you must take into account the great Millennium, in which the devil will be bound and will not be tempting anyone. (See the scriptures I quoted above.) D&C 29: 39 may have another meaning, different than the one you are implying.

  15. I have long felt that milliennial satan bondage is not chains and physical/spirtual restraint placed on satan by God. Rather, I believe it will be the extreme faithfulness/wisdom/knowledge of the saints present that effectively mutes any attempt at temptation. In essence, these saints will be so “good” that they will not be tempted to do wrong. If satan cannot sway these people one minutia, what’s the point of him trying, right? I do think he WILL try, however. His bondage will be his inability to succeed.

    Maybe it is a question of semantics. What is temptation? Is it an attempt to sway one from the path of righteousness, or is it when one actually struggles to stay on the path of righteousness? Haven’t we said things like, “I’m not even TEMPTED to shoot heroin up my veins, the thought has absolutely no appeal to me”. Does that mean that satan is not trying to get us to shoot heroin, or that he’s just never going to be able to get some of us to do something like that (hopefully).

    I firmly believe that opposition is necessary, and that includes the millineum. There will be opposition, but the saints will be so righteous that opposition will be “chained”. Nevertheless, we read that satan will eventually be loosed for a season. What will “loose” him? God? I think it will be the slow degradation of the saints, for as we know by sad experience that it is the nature of mankind to drift away from godliness, given time. So, again, we’re back to agency and choice. These saints will make choices that open the door for them to FALL to temptation. I think this will probably start in similar ways documented in the Book of Mormon. Namely, pride. I don’t think satan will suddenly be loosed, but rather, will slowly regain power and control among the saints, because they’ve exercised free agency (that they’ve had all along) to choose evil… allowing themselves to be tempted.

  16. What Jgtrs says would be my interpretation of Satan’s millennial bondage. After all, we are told by Joseph Smith, Jr., that were will still be wicked people in the millennium. The world will “beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks,” and the nations will dwell on Earth in peace, but there will still be non-members of the Church at that time (and from what I understand, this is the millennial definition of “wicked”).

    Man could do nothing were he not enticed toward good or toward evil. I think that during the millennium, the Saints will be given (by the Holy Ghost?) a power over or protection against the enticements of the devil, a power which today we do not possess, for it is Satan that possesses power over us, and righteous men are limited by bounds in their power against the devil, therefore we must call upon the Lord who has power over Satan: the same as our Father Michael did (we must do as our father has done before us, which is not only to lay down our lives in order to take them up again, but to call upon and trust in the name of the Lord).

  17. I agree with LDS Anarchist, God works by common consent, if 75% wanted Lucifer’s plan, he would not have just banished them all then continued on with what he thought was best. He is bound by laws just as we are, He doesn’t make this up as he goes along. As the Anarchist said:

    It doesn’t make sense to me that the principle of “the voice of the people” applies on Earth but not in heaven, as these principles are revealed to us as heavenly principles so that we can pattern our lives according to that standard found in heaven…

    It doesn’t make sense to me either.

    As far as the millennium, Orson Pratt talked on this and said:

    “Satan is to be cast into [a] pit, and a seal set upon him, and he is to be bound with a chain, and will have no power or dominion upon this earth. He and all the fallen angels with him, are to be kept in that pit until the thousand years are ended.”

    He goes on to say:

    “The question may arise here-‘Will it be possible for men to sin during the Millennium?’ Yes. Why? Because they have not lost their agency. Agency always continues wherever intelligent beings are, whether in heaven, on the earth, or among any of the creations that God has made; wherever you find intelligent beings, there you will find an agency, not to the same extent perhaps, under all circumstances, but yet there is always the exercise of agency where there is intelligence. For instance when Satan is bound and a seal set upon him in this lowermost pit, his agency is partially destroyed in some things. He will not have power to come out of that pit…he will not have power to tempt the children of men…consequently his agency then will be measurably destroyed or taken away, but not in full. The Lord will not destroy the agency of the people during the Millennium, therefore there will be a possibility of their sinning during that time. But if they who live then do sin, it will not be because of the power of the devil to tempt them, for he will have no power over them, and they will sin merely because they choose to do so of their own free will.” emphasis mine.

    I have quoted enough here, follow the link and read the rest, there is a bit more to it.

    As a side note, notice he did not say “free” agency. It is my understanding that agency never has been and never will be “free”. We have the freedom to choose, that is agency, but each of our choices comes with a consequence, or cost, that we must pay for our decisions. It drives me crazy when I listen to sacrament talks or Sunday School lessons about how great it is that we have our “free” agency.

  18. My bad, I am still learning this wordpress thing, that bottom bit shouldn’t be in a quote box.

  19. (1/3 under Lucifer, 1/3 under Jehovah and 1/3 under Michael, for example.)

    Not that it matters, but I would guess that the three parts Heaven was split into were: 1) Michael/Jehovah [good], 2) Satan [bad], & 3) undecided [indifferent].

    The Lord would rather us be hot or cold than lukewarm (indifferent). Revelation 3:15-16

  20. PallasAthena, I fixed the comment.

    Derek, isn’t there a quote by Brigham Young or some other prophet/apostle that states there were no neutrals in heaven? (This always seems to come up when talking about the priesthood ban.)

  21. I don’t know of such a quote. Like I said, I was attempting a guess. I see Michael & Jehovah as on the same side, so I’m still left to wonder what the third side may have been.

    Maybe there were only two sides, and all the 50% vs. 1/3 stuff in meaninglessness (I’m more inclined toward this end).

  22. I recently came across this quote (taken from this blog) which speaks of a “vote” in heaven:

    The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “The contention in heaven was-Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him” (TPJS, p. 357).

  23. That quote can be found in hypertext here:

    The entry in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith also cites the Pearl of Great Price scriptures relevant to the topic of the vote:

    Selections from the Book of Moses
    Chapter 4

    1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
    2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
    3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
    4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
    5 And now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which I, the Lord God, had made.
    6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

    The Book of Abraham translated from the Papyrus, by Joseph Smith
    Chapter 3

    22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
    23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
    24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
    25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
    26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
    27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
    28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

    I like to think that “the grand council” Joseph Smith refers to is the Eloheim, and that the Eloheim is composed of resurrected and exalted beings, including our own God the Father, the father of our spirits (and maybe our bodies, under the perspective of the Adam-God doctrine/theory). I believe the Eloheim cast an unanimous vote necessitated by perfect knowledge. As spirit children, we could not partake in the vote, for we had not yet received our bodies, much less the fact that we have not been exalted to Godhood, and that we are not implementing the plan of salvation; rather, we are being subjected to the plan of salvation in this stage. For us, spirits in pre-mortal existence, we only had to choose sides after the vote of the grand council of gods and goddesses was rendered (which is the same as the will of our Father through his possession of perfect knowledge).

  24. Joseph Smith clearly taught the Adam-God doctrine. He hinted at in April 1844 in his King Follett discourse.

    But there is a little known sermon that he preached 11 days before his martrydom, on June 16, 1844, in which he rather forthrightly, properly understood, taught the Adam-God doctrine.

    Brigham Young only taught Adam-God because Joseph Smith taught it to him.


    Joseph Smith’s Final Public Sermon of June 16, 1844, 11 short days before his martyrdom

  26. John, the link that you gave doesn’t mention Adam at all, it’s about plurality of Gods.

    To LDSA:
    While the post is definitely informative, there are some unsafe assumptions that you are making as a stepping stone for your further speculations. The one that stood out to me is this:

    Satan didn’t want to just be the Savior, suffering for the sins of mankind. His intention was to do away with free agency altogether. If free agency were to be done away with, as it is guaranteed by God to all created things in the universe, it would have meant that God would have ceased to be God, as he would have been caught in a lie.

    Elsewhere on the blog you pointed out that Satan’s angels are devoid of any agency because they willingly gave it up to Satan. Apparently, there is a law in heaven which allows a spirit to forfeit one’s agency, handing it over to someone else.
    So, God would not be caught in a lie, because He guarantees agency as long as the possessor of it doesn’t forfeit it of his own volition.

  27. theAstute1, there is a tipping point to all things. Currently, agency is the law of the Universe because Satan hasn’t won. His angels have given up their agency to him voluntarily and we, when we sin, voluntarily give up agency, too. If Satan wins this war (which we are told he won’t) it means that he gets a majority to give up their agency to him. At that tipping point, agency as a law ceases to exist and coercion as a law begins. In other words, once the tipping point is reached, no one will “give up” their agency to Satan voluntarily, he will merely take it from them by force. This will make God a liar, dissolving the Universe as we know it.

  28. how do I leave comments? Because I can answer all your questions.

  29. In Heaven Lucifer decides he wants more than just the top position. He wants the throne. Ok Lucy (Says GOD) come get it. Lucy lies to his brothers who respected and admired him from afar cuz his position was so much higher than theirs. One-Third of them believe his lies, God assembles for WAR. Lucifer goes for the throne; with his angels on his side he thinks he has a chance. God commands Michael to kick Lucifer out of heaven and give him his own kingdom on earth cuz GOD just saw what Lucifer was gonna do with his throne. Lucifer drunk with power, after he kills his creator GOD to attain the throne decides to look and see what would have happened if GOD would have defeated him and his demons. Lucifer see’s JESUS rise from the dead and his fate is sealed. The lengths GOD goes to in order to get back at me for my rebellion, WOW; GOD really holds a grudge. So I’ll do you one better GOD. Lucifer brings GOD back to life where he is forced to bow before him saying Lucifer is great. Lucifer torments GOD constantly. Lucifer looks in THAT future; see’s all the overcomers and creates them to be tormented forever. Lucifer is Evil, Sadistic TORMENT is HIS theme. So fitting for Lucy to get some of his own torment (which he created by the way, not GOD) GOD is just so he tests what is in Lucy’s heart. He now has his own kingdom where he is GOD. So GOD creates man in his own image to see if Lucy was going to attack. What? He lies again like he did to his brothers (Demons now) Lucy is scared. GOD creates little gods. What are they going to do to us? More importantly what are they going to do to me? Lucy you selfish it’s all about you huh? Ok they might kick me off this earth so I gotta think about how im gonna attack now. Brute force didn’t work against Mike and the others so I have to be smart about this. I know how I’ll give them the same condemnation that I have. I will lie to them (Eve is my target) I’ll tempt her with the prospect of becoming GOD I’ll tell her that GOD is holding her back from her true potential (After all that’s what I thought GOD was doing to me) This will work and once I had gotten Eve to eat the fruit I’ll have to figure out how to take care of Adam, he won’t be so easily swayed. But once Eve eats the fruit Adam grabs it from her and eats it himself because Adam knew she would die so instead of live life without her he sins too by eating the fruit. God finds out what Lucy did. This is all out WAR. (GEN 3:14-15 ADONAI, GOD, said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all animals I am taking your arms and legs and you will crawl on your belly as a reminder of how low you are. V15 I will put animosity between you and the woman between your seed and her seed; He will crush your head and you will bruise his heel.) Lucifer is never going to stop attacking GOD; he has his HEART set on it, he will fight to the bitter end. Lucy tricks this poor race called man before they even get a chance at life. I love them so I will come to earth and redeem this fallen man whom you tricked. You want them to die; you want to kill my image. I will die for them and come back to life. I love them; I will give myself for them so they won’t have to suffer your fate Lucy. God and Lucy are complete opposites; GOD is not selfish like you Lucy. That’s what you thought I was in heaven; selfish, because I make you worship me. I am GOD and worthy of worship and I will show you why. You wanted me gone so you can have worship. Are you worthy of it? We will see, in the end I’m gonna put you where you put me. I saw what you were going to do as GOD you are ABOMINATION on the Throne. The Throne was created by me for me it does not belong to you. DAN 11:31 Armed forces will come at his (the ANTI-CHRIST) order and profane the sanctuary and fortress. They will abolish the daily burnt offering and set up the ABOMINATION that causes desolation. GOD is so furious, SATAN that’s your new name. I create life and then you go destroy it. Sin started in heaven, PRIDE; Lucy was all about self. I give self on cross. See Lucy I’m not selfish like you. As time goes by Lucy does exactly what GOD saw him do if he had taken the throne. Nothing would have ever been right. Lucy was going to create torment. Can you believe that? With GOD’S power he can do anything and he chooses to create torment. I will give you torment forever. When I saw you on MY throne you knew exactly what torment was and you choose to use it on me the GOD who created you, loves you. Torment is the cruelest thing I have ever seen, I will endure torment on the cross for the little guys you kicked out of paradise. Does that sound familiar? So choose your side GOD is not selfish like Satan claims. I proved that on the cross I didn’t have to but I did. Satan it bothered me that you lied saying I was selfish. I couldn’t have you going to your grave believing a lie. Your grave, hell, your ending will be in Torment for ever. That was your most wicked creation so I am putting it back on your own head. The Devil was going to kill me to take my throne, then out of curiosity he looks to see what would have happened if I GOD would have won. He see’s JESUS and his children overcome him in the end. He is so furious that he brings me back to life and he creates my children and torments us forever. I could not look the other way on this one. You were born on this earth in an unfair situation. We are in wartime it will never be like this again. I did not create you; just to kill you; that was the enemy and he did kill many of you. That’s why I had to create weapons for you to wear to protect you and I gave you the sword of the Spirit so you could fight back. You are my soldiers in this world. I proved my love on the cross it was the only way I could get you back. That liar who says I’m selfish took you away with his evil lies before I even had the chance to know you, my creation. I could not let him get away with that so I will make it up to all of you in heaven. No more death No more pain. My children you were not born in vain you just got caught up with Satan and his wickedness. So I had to get you back and at the same time I proved to that liar that I am not selfish like him. With this knowledge you can see why I love you and remember that if I had not kicked Lucy out of heaven and if he would have won, you would be tormented because you love me. So now you see I am not unfair. You were born in an unfair situation. I had to destroy that monster on the cross that through death I destroyed him who had the power of death (that monster Lucy we keep talking about) and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    Written by Craig Brock

  30. Feel free to comment on my article I’m sure some of you might dissagree, however it is all true. GOD himself told me these things with visions and various other things. Lets just say it was a supernatural night. GOD blew my mind and thats what GOD does he blows the lid off things. I felt it right to post my article because some of you were so close. I had to tell the truth.

  31. Didn’t quite know where to put this question — but:

    A deep sleep is put upon Adam — thus the brethren are instructed to close their eyes as if asleep.

    God commands Adam to awake and arise, but the brethren are told to just please arise — not to awake and not to open their eyes.

    Lucifer observes that Adam’s eyes are not yet opened [despite the fact that the brethren have opened them anyway] and tells Adam that he must therefore eat some of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    Then he tells Eve that he wants her to eat some of the fruit so that her eyes may be opened — but she was never told to close them.

    Also, the apron of fig leaves is suggested by Lucifer — which we put it on following his direction.

    Then God suggests coats of skin be made to cover Adam and Eve’s nakedness instead — which we are already clothed in.

    Yet the apron always remains


  32. I think the apron remains because it is a symbol to remind us that we aren’t yet redeemed from the fall. The endowment is practice for the real thing. We are not actually, physically, literally brought back into the presence of God during temple sessions. When we go through the real thing, I expect the apron wouldn’t be there.

    As far as closing their eyes, you may have stumbled on some symbolism there. I was reading someone on the internet or in a book (it may have been Denver Snuffer), and they pointed out that Adam and Eve each represent each person in the room. In other words, Adam and Eve represent each female in the room. They also represent each male in the room.

  33. What of the apron being put on at the direction of Satan? He directs Adam and Eve to make aprons of fig leaves — We pause — and are then directed to do as Satan has suggested.

    I think you hit it spot-on with your remark that we are to consider ourselves, respectively, Adam and Eve [the ceremony itself suggests that we do so]. The endowment is a ritual — it’s a metaphorical presentation designed to tell the story about *You* — it does little good as a history lesson.

  34. Perhaps obeying Satan is representative of us listening to him in our lives, of doing what he says to do. Until we put off “the natural man” perhaps we are spiritually retaining that apron.

  35. I have gone through this post and edited all the “gods and goddesses” expressions to read merely “gods” and all the “free agency” expressions to read merely “agency.” I’ve done this because the term “goddesses” doesn’t appear in our scriptures, nor the term “free agency.” Only the terms “gods” (referring to both male and female varieties) and “agency” are found there.

  36. started reading this novel and this quote reminded me of this post

    “It is not a good universe that I strive for, nor a just one, nor a pretty one; the existence of the universe itself is at stake. Final victory for Belial does not mean imprisonment for the human race, continued slavery, but nonexistence; without me, there is nothing, not even Belial, whom I created.”

    “The power of evil,” Emmanuel continued, “is the ceasing of reality, the ceasing of existence itself. It is the slow slipping away of everything that is, until it becomes, like Linda Fox, a phantasm. That process has begun. It began with the primal fall. Part of the cosmos fell away. The Godhead itself suffered a crisis; can you fathom that, Herb Asher? A crisis in the Ground of Being? What does that convey to you? The possibility of the Godhead ceasing — does it convey that to you? Because the Godhead is all that stands between –” He broke off. “You can’t even imagine it. No creature can imagine nonbeing, especially its own nonbeing. I must guarantee being, all being. Including yours.”

  37. LDS Anarchist, you said, “I’m not sure what the difference is between a “vote” and a “choice.” I see a big difference. On this earth a vote is typically an attempt to use force to dictate to another person how they must act or be acted on. When you vote for anything in a political system you are accepting, condoning, participating in and directing that force against another person(s) largely against their will. That is immoral and not of God.
    It is moral and proper to make a choice for yourself which might be called a vote, but only for yourself. You have no right to choose or vote for anyone else.
    Every spirit child could only choose for them self and not vote for what another spirit must do or be subject to. That is how I understand agency. So it wasn’t an either or situation where the majority carried the day. It was merely an individual choice about which path and leader each spirit child wanted to follow.
    I have always wondered what could Satan have offered which convinced a third part(whatever % that number might represent) of the spirits to choose? Following Jesus meant they would receive a perfect immortal body so what was Satan promising?
    I also don’t see how they wouldn’t have had agency long before that time also. Would God have somehow given them agency just before the Grand Council so they could choose or would they logically have already had it long before that time and thus been able to exercise it and learn how to use it?
    Or is agency part of being an immortal spirit? Did we have it when we transitioned from immortal spirit or intelligence to spirit children of God?
    Can’t see how he would have forced any spirits to make that transition whatever it was. So we must have always had agency and so probably always will. How can one be said to have intelligence if they can’t choose?
    I can’t see myself ever agreeing to a situation where I might lose that agency if it is something I always had.
    I see the plan of God as giving us the opportunity to be able to do more with that agency by giving us the knowledge and power he has.
    So by taking advantage of the opportunity He presented us with we will have more power and thus more choices which means more agency.

  38. Yes nice insight. A third part of what? Of the Stars of heaven, may not ne,ces,sarilly 33% of all the host…

  39. So, was it God who endowed the split elements with the sense of justice? For some reason I thought that it was an innate quality of the elements which God had to reckon with and work around by creating the plan of mercy.

  40. So, was it God who endowed the split elements with the sense of justice? For some reason I thought that it was an innate quality of the elements which God had to reckon with and work around by creating the plan of mercy.

    God created everything, including all the principles and feelings (such as justice, mercy and so on.) And everything is a gift of God. So, no. No one has a non-created sense of justice. That was given to us by God.

  41. So, if we take it one level deeper – the fact that God works by the principle of faith and not by some other principle. Was this fact invented by God, ie He caused that all should be done by faith because it was His choice, or is there some universal rule that God must obey, which rule states that all must be done by faith?

  42. in HEAVEN that can be the rule and invention and reinvention may be, though beings live by sight in heaven
    but outside heaven there is no faith to be obeyed, faith therefore must prevail or pervade and self-exist from the void and god will emerge resplendently from the dark to split the elements and whose faith can do so much…i listened my cousin in law one time how he dislikes this idea when a man toils in life, marries and have a family, sees children grow, then later seeing grandchildren, then goes on the same cycle of life,while a man do labor and go to party, live his religion etc, then die, no he doesn’t want this family cycle thing, he wants another course (how anarchic, when i think of it!) he wants to self-exist! maybe because for life is a boredom and toil-laden life i guess it may be common for many too i want to party all night to my heart’s content!..i guess the question i want to pose is on this blog is, where did god came to be or i mean how did god become god when there was no one else?, while in mortal dimension it takes time to find answers from zero dimensions or any other…

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