For the past several weeks, the Spirit has been guiding me through strange paths. It all began a week or two prior to November 1st…
Guidance Sought
A crisis was happening in my family which required a solution that I couldn’t provide. As I analyzed the situation, it became apparent that I could not proceed further without guidance from the Lord. So, I began to fast (no food or water for days) and to pray in earnest, even retiring to a local mountain to pray openly to the Lord at midday and evening hours. In addition to the family crisis, though, the country’s economic situation was pressing upon my mind. With these mental burdens, I asked for a specific solution to my family crisis and also a way to escape the economic bombs beginning to explode around us all.
(In case the reader is unaware of what is coming down the pike, I refer you to LEAP/Europe2020’s latest economic prediction along with their 27 other previous predictive announcements concerning the Global Systemic Crisis that we are currently in.)
Prophecy Received
My family, and especially my wife, were all getting nervous, as I had no solution to the family crisis and could only reply, “I am waiting for an answer from the Lord.” Each day that went by I expected to receive an answer in one form or another, yet nothing came. No dream, no vision, no whisperings, no angelic visits, no divinely-inspired human intervention, nothing. In fact, not only were there no prophetic or revelatory dreams, but there were no dreams whatsoever. I was receiving a complete blank, as if the heavens had closed themselves, yet the Spirit of the Lord had not left me and I was still full of faith and confident that the Lord had a solution to our family crisis.
Nevertheless, my poor wife had to endure day after day of me telling her that the Lord had not yet spoken to me and that we needed to wait a little longer. And then, sometime during the last week of October, I suddenly received three prophecies from the Spirit, which had nothing whatsoever to do with solving our family crisis. Yet, these prophecies confirmed to me that I was still right before the Lord and that I was going to receive an answer. And so I patiently waited…
My Prayer Answered
On the 28th of October, a friend emailed me and out of the blue asked me a question concerning silver. I hadn’t spoken to him about silver in a long time, so it was quite unexpected. I called him back to answer his question and we talked at length about the silver situation. During that conversation he said something that triggered a confirmation of the Spirit, meaning that as he spoke the words the Spirit indicated to me that I was to pursue a course that would focus all my time, means and efforts on silver.
After the telephone conversation, I breathed a sigh of relief and joyously told my wife the good news that the Lord had finally responded and that He was to going to direct me in a course that had something to do with silver.
The next day, I did some research, and made some additional discoveries concerning silver. These discoveries were likewise learned with confirmatory manifestations from the Spirit. Apparently, I was going to be guided step-by-step and day-by-day in what I was to do and where I was to go and was to be given a little bit here and a little bit there, with doors opening up miraculously when they seemed to be impossibly shut. The Spirit plainly indicated that this was the Lord’s work, not mine.
Each day that went by, the strangeness of it all started to become clearer. I found myself traveling south of the border several times, in search of silver. To illustrate just how bizarre it all has been, let me mention one incident. I had a married couple give great sums of cash money to me, as in three thousand dollars taped to my abdomen (in case I was robbed), to get silver for them in a foreign country. How strange is that? Who in their right mind would hand over 3 grand cash to someone and send them into another country to purchase silver for them? Yet, despite the risk of dishonesty on my part and the risk of me being robbed by someone (either taking the money or taking the silver from me), they had implicit trust in me and in my abilities to get them what they wanted. And by the grace of God I was successful.
A follow-up trip down south in search of silver came up empty, though. As I walked down the streets, having nearly exhausted my places to search, I thought, “How is it the the Lord sends me here and doesn’t provide me with what I was told to seek? He must direct me to its location!” And as I thought these very thoughts, with a determination to continue looking until the Spirit revealed to me the location of the metal, I found myself at an establishment that caught my eye, which, upon entering and making the acquaintance of the owner, I discovered that he was the man that the Lord had provided for me to supply me with the silver.
And then over the next days, in my interactions with this man, I met another man, who had also been prepared by the Lord to provide me with something. And this gift from this second man, upon looking it over, was the last piece of the puzzle that I needed to finally grasp what the Lord wanted me to do. None of these people knew, or even now know, any of the others, yet they had all been prepared by the Lord to facilitate the way.
The Mission
After looking over the gift by this last man, the Spirit impressed upon my mind that I needed to create a silver-based bartering currency and that I had to do it with urgency. That manifestation occurred on Saturday night, the 15th of November. I decided to base the new currency upon the Zcoin designs, according to my memory of those designs (as that website is no longer in operation), with a few changes. That night I scribbled down some quick designs and went to sleep, with the plan that on Monday I would seek a minting company.
Sunday the 16th of November I again took up the designs and made further modifications.
Monday the 17th of November came and I began to search and call many of the major mints in the nation. I had planned on minting a 1/20 ounce coin initially, so as I called these places I discovered that virtually no one would mint such a small coin. Then I started to call lesser-sized mints, leaving messages for people to call me back. As evening approached, I told my wife that I couldn’t find an appropriate mint, but not to worry, as the Lord would provide one. I still had the ever present sense of urgency from the Spirit and despite coming up with nothing, yet I was confident that the Lord was going to push this thing through. A short time later that same day, one particular mint called back, and as we talked, it became apparent they were the mint that the Lord had intended all along to use.
Tuesday the 18th of November brought forth another man, also prepared by the Lord, whose advice caused me to change my initial coin size from 1/20 ounce to 1/2 ounce. Like on other occasions, the Spirit indicated to me to follow this man’s advice.
Wednesday the 19th of November finalized the details with the mint, along with the revised 1/2 ounce images, and set a price for the creation of the dies. It was more than I could afford. I told my wife, “We are going to tighten our belts and buy nothing but the bare necessities, while I seek out the money to create the dies. I will use every spare dime we have and add that to whatever else I can obtain to get this thing started, as I am certain this is the word of the Lord and that I must perform this thing quickly.” I set out that night to obtain the money and came back empty-handed.
On Thursday morning, the 20th of November, I set my mind to diligently doing everything I could to obtain the rest of the funds needed, even if I needed to work seven days a week for two straight weeks to accomplish the task, yet all the while with the understanding that the Lord wanted this begun now, not in two weeks.
Thursday evening I returned home with a 1 oz gold coin in my hand. A donor had decided to give it to me to use to purchase the dies. I never asked for it. I merely recounted to this person many of the strange occurrences that had happened on a daily basis to me over the last three or so weeks. The Lord did the rest.
Friday the 21st of November (today), I sent off the check to the mint and finalized all the details so that they could start making the dies and also begin receiving pre-orders from people who desired to mint this currency.
My current understanding
The Lord still hasn’t revealed to me everything concerning this work, but I believe, based upon the revelations and experiences I’ve had in the past 3-5 weeks, that He intends to use this bartering currency to monetize silver and to set up a way to frustrate the secret combination’s attempt at destroying the people by destroying the government currency. Although it does appear that the Lord is going to allow the secret combination to destroy the government currency, their plan of making it so that there will be no viable alternative (non sc-controlled) currency whereby people can transact will be frustrated by the introduction of these silver coins.
It appears that this currency will remain hidden from the view of the secret combination until they make their move to utterly destroy the dollar, at which time it will come to their attention that these silver coins are being used by people to barter and that a portion of the population is totally independent from their monetary control and power.
I foresee that the distribution of these coins will ultimately lead to the opening up of silver mines in America again, perhaps because it will be profitable to monetize the silver taken from the mines.
I foresee the time coming when the minting company will no longer accept dollars in payment of their minting operations, but will ask a percentage of the output as payment, just like me. This will allow them to remain in business while other mints around them close their doors. It will also make it cheaper for someone to mint coins.
The currency will ultimately be expanded to include various sizes and more than one private mint.
It may be that this is the currency that will fulfill the prophecies concerning money found in the Doctrine and Covenants. (See The Root Cause of the Current Financial (Monetary) Crisis and Its Solution.)
That is about all I can see forward, so far.
About the Currency and How to Get It
[Updated Info: To see more photographs of the coins, visit the blog post, Bartering Currency Pictures.] Here is what the 1/2-oz coin looks like:
[Note: The “AN” is the mint mark of the American National Mint. Both the American National Mint and The Collector’s Mint are divisions of the same company: The Money Company.]
Obverse of a Proof Condition Silver 1/2-oz Bartering Currency Coin - Contrast Increased
Reverse of a Proof Condition Silver 1/2-oz Bartering Currency Coin - Contrast Increased
You’ll notice that I’ve got an anarchy symbol there (after all, I am LDS Anarchist!) I put that symbol there so that people understand that this currency can function with or without an existing government (a State.) Also, as it is my understanding that we are slated to be brought into tribal anarchy, I wanted that symbol to serve as a reminder to those using the currency to remain in anarchy, so that if ever the temptation to re-establish a State enters the mind of man, a glance at the coins may cause them to think twice about it and change their minds.
You can obtain the coins by ordering minting runs. Just contact the following mint:
The Collector’s Mint
Tarzana, CA
Email: moneyco1@aol.com
Phone: 818-609-7666
Ask for Nancy or Richard
(Tarzana is in the Los Angeles area.)
When you call them up, tell them you want to “strike coins using the bartering currency dies.” They will explain to you their striking prices. They will also explain that the cost of using the bartering currency dies is that the die owner (me) gets one hundredth of the output. This means that if you strike 100 coins, 1 of them gets set aside for me. I will use this hundredth part to repair the dies if they ever break or need repair, to create new coin sizes and for other purposes.
You can bring your own .999 fine silver to the mint or you can purchase .999 fine silver from them. They get silver at something like 15 cents above spot, so it is really cheap. Also, you can strike coins for as low as $2.00 a coin. For larger orders (5,000 or above), you can strike at an even cheaper price. You can pick up your order yourself or you can have them ship it out to you. Shipping is extra. If you have silver, but it isn’t .999 fine, they will take it, but they must assay it and refine it, which are additional costs. It takes about 1-2 days to strike coins, once they have the silver and planchets needed.
They will accept pre-orders now, meaning that even though it will take two weeks from today (the 21st of November) for the manufacture of the dies to be completed, anyone can call them up today and order a minting run, locking in today’s spot price of silver, and when the dies are ready, production of your order will commence.
It’s Cost-effective and Wise
If you plug in the numbers, it costs nearly the same price to purchase a 1 ounce .999 silver bullion coin as it does to mint two of these 1/2 ounce bartering coins, if you buy the silver from the mint and pick up the coins yourself. If silver is at $10 an ounce spot price, because of its scarcity these days, you may find it sold at $14 or $15 or even more per ounce. If you mint two of the 1/2 ounce .999 silver bullion bartering coins, you pay $10.15 for an ounce plus two $2.00 minting fees, bringing your total cost per ounce to $14.15. Now, that is not subtracting the cost of the hundredth part which is taken out of your output, but even taking that out, were you to mint 100 pieces (ending up with 99 because of the hundredth part taken out), your total cost per ounce would still only be $14.29, which is still pretty close to the cost of a 1-ounce piece.
1/2-ounce pieces are better than 1-ounce pieces because they can purchase smaller items. If ever we need to use this currency as actual money, smaller denominations will always be more useful than larger denominations.
Currently, in this country, you would be hard-pressed to find any silver bullion coins in the 1/2-ounce range. Not any more, though, as I’m now introducing this first piece to the LDS public. Use it as you wish.
As for me, I’ve accomplished this first part of the mission given me of the Lord.
Updated Info (updated on 2 Dec 2008 )
I’ve changed the above wording to reflect a hundredth part taken out instead of the original tenth part taken out as payment for use of my dies. This makes the currency competitively priced to any 1-oz or 1/2-oz bullion silver coin. I made this change after talking to an individual (who will remain nameless) and learning of the capitalistic endeavors being promoted now that the economy is tanking. Although I commend them for trying to introduce silver-based money into society, and wish them the best of luck, hearing how “everybody had to get their cut” didn’t sit well with me. The Spirit again rested upon me and gave me a great sense of urgency, so, although they invited me to participate in their scheme, it became clear that these dies must follow a different, less profit-motivated path.
So, effective immediately, with the die payment changes I’ve made, the bartering currency is now the best-priced 1/2-ounce piece in existence and can also compete with any 1-oz bullion coin out there, either beating their price, matching their price, or coming really close to matching it. Here are the new numbers:
Minimum order = 100 coins
50 oz produces 100 1/2-oz coins
$2.00 minting charge per coin
100 coins times $2.00 = $200
50 oz of $10/oz silver = $500
1/100 of produced coins = 1 coin (this goes to the die owner)
99/100 of produced coins = 99 coins (this goes to you)
Equation: Total Minting Cost ($200) + Total Silver Cost ($500) divided by 99/100 of produced coins (99) = Total Cost Per 1/2-oz Coin ($7.07). This means that two 1/2-oz coins = $14.14 per oz (at $10/oz silver.) This is a very good price as normally two 1/2-oz coins would cost you $10 per coin with premiums, or $20 total per ounce. (For comparison to another 1/2-oz bullion coin, see how much it costs you to buy a 1/2-oz Mexican Libertad. Use a currency converter to convert pesos to dollars. Also, remember to factor in an exchange commission. You’ll see that the bartering coins are the better deal.)
Production costs are always higher for smaller denomination coins. Keep this in mind so that you don’t compare apples to oranges. Nevertheless, even comparing these 1/2-oz coins to 1-oz bullion coins, you can see that they are competitively priced. For calculations using other silver prices, see the following:
$5/oz silver = $9.09 per oz.
$6/oz silver = $10.10 per oz.
$7/oz silver = $11.11 per oz.
$8/oz silver = $12.12 per oz.
$9/oz silver = $13.13 per oz.
$10/oz silver = $14.14 per oz.
$11/oz silver = $15.15 per oz.
$12/oz silver = $16.16 per oz.
$13/oz silver = $17.17 per oz.
$14/oz silver = $18.18 per oz.
$15/oz silver = $19.19 per oz., etc.
[November 6, 2010 Update: Anyone can now purchase these coins from the mint in rolls of 25 coins, instead of having to strike 100 coins. This should make it easier for people to obtain them.]
Next Anarchism/Anarchy article: Bartering Currency Pictures
Previous Anarchism/Anarchy article: The Root Cause of the Current Financial (Monetary) Crisis and Its Solution
Complete List of Articles authored by LDS Anarchist
99 Comments
LDS Anarchy 
An interesting project, and I’ll be interested in updates.
Many on the far right and left of the political spectrum dislike what’s known as fiat money. Personally, I liken it to a credit card, which can be used to create wealth if the subject is prudent and thoughtful, but has the potential to be disastrous for people who are irresponsible.
So if I walk in with 100 1-oz silver coins then I walk out with 100 1/2-oz coins?
100 1-oz is roughly $1000.
100 1-oz makes 200 1/2-oz coins.
1/10 of 200 1/2-oz coins is 20 1/2-oz coins
$2/coin strike fee * 200 coins = $400 (or 80 1/2 coins @ $5/coin)
200 struck coins – 20 (1/10) – 80 (strike fee) = 100 1/2 coins.
Doesn’t seem like a good deal – am I missing something?
Here is where you went wrong. It should be:
If you walk in with 100 1-oz silver coins, you’ll walk out with 180 1/2 –oz coins. As you are bringing in your own silver on this transaction, the cost of the silver is whatever you paid for those original 100 1-oz coins that you are bringing in, which may have been higher or lower than today’s spot price. For demonstration purposes, we’ll assume that you originally paid $10 an ounce for those 100 1-oz coins, so that your initial investment in those 100 1-oz coins was $1000.
100 1-oz is roughly $1000.
100 1-oz makes 200 1/2-oz coins.
1/10 of 200 1/2-oz coins is 20 1/2-oz coins
$2/coin strike fee * 200 coins = $400 (or 180 1/2 coins @ $2.22/coin)
200 struck coins – 20 (1/10) = 180 1/2 coins.
When you factor in the cost of the silver (what you originally paid for in those 100 1-oz coins, which we’ll assume to be $1000), then you would come to a final cost per piece of $7.77 or cost per ounce of $15.55.
I neglected to explain in the article that the saying “A JUST WEIGHT AND BALANCE ARE THE LORD’S” comes from Proverbs 16: 11.
I agree to the need of a new currency, but I am confused at why we should pay tithing to you. I understand the requirement for future expansion and maintenance but 10% seems a little high. You say something about “other purposes”, I hope these other purposes aren’t to help your family through the crisis.
Dear Skeptic-
I find your following comments to LDSAnarchy interesting and perhaps a bit mystifying
“I agree to the need of a new currency, but I am confused at why we should pay tithing to you. I understand the requirement for future expansion and maintenance but 10% seems a little high. You say something about “other purposes”, I hope these other purposes aren’t to help your family through the crisis.”
I certainly feel that you have a right to your opinion and your skepticism.. a little skepticism is an important commodity in today’s world. “Buyer Beware!”
Nevertheless, I view things a little differently than you and I am trying to understand why you feel the way you do.
1- Why do you feel he is trying to extract tithing from you? What did he say anything to indicate that he was starting a church or is it just that you equate a 10% markup with tithing? Perhaps he should mark it up 12 ½%.
2- Why is 10% too high? What indicator are you using to determine what an appropriate mark up is for that particular market and industry?
3- Why do you feel resentful about the fact that he may choose to allocate some of his profits towards providing for his family? What exactly do you feel he should be allocating his profits towards?
Having lived in a capitalistic society all my life and having been involved in sales, marketing and entrepreneurship, it seems rather common place for people businesses to offer products and services and to sell them for whatever the market will pay.
People and companies make a huge mark up on every imaginable type of product and service all the time. As long as consumers gladly pay the going price without compulsion, most people don’t seem to feel that the manufacturer or the marketer is being immoral or doing anything illegal.
I for one am praying for Babylon to fall and for Zion to be established because I am getting kind of sick of Babylon and capitalism, nevertheless, capitalism happens to be the reality for now and I am not aware of anyone who has been able to beat the system we are currently being held captive in.
Many of us have mortgages and other bills to pay and we need to provide for our loved ones. I don’t think the Lord would be very happy if we let our loved ones starve just because we don’t like the current system and don’t want to participate in it or we feel like we are above asking for or paying a markup on goods and services.
The value people put on products and services seldom has any rhyme or reason to it in my estimation. I am old enough to remember when “Pet rocks” were a fad. I can remember a silly cabbage patch doll that people got into fights over at Kmart. Both of those products are virtually worthless in my opinion yet people pay 1,000% more than what it would cost to manufacture and/or distribute them.
I see people all the time who pay twice as much for a shirt, a hat, or shoes just because it has a silly Nike symbol on it.
A few months ago I purchased something at an auction fundraiser for a little girl that had and accident and needed help with future medical bills and ongoing therapy… I chose to pay more for the goods and services than what I would normally pay in an effort to show support. That was my option. It is a free market.
A few years ago I paid an outrageous price for a piece of silver that was a duplicate of the talisman/amulet that Joseph Smith had in his pocket when he was murdered. The actual value of the silver was significantly less than what I paid for it, yet I would have paid twice as much as I did because it had an intangible personal value to me because it represented something that was valued by someone I think highly of…
The worth and value of everything in Babylon is relative.
The offer presented by LDSAnarchy seems pretty straight forward and transparent to me. He is offering an honest product/service which he had described quite honestly and adequately. He actually gave more details than he needed to.
It seems to me he has provided full disclosure about his process and involvement in putting the offer together.
The offer has to do with putting away some precious metal for a time of crisis. The suggestion alone may be worth a huge value to people. The silver has some form of an insignia on it that represents something to him and like minded people. That also has intrinsic value.
Trademarks, logos and insignias quotes and other verbiage have a very marketable value above and beyond the practical use that he mentioned.
Maybe he has a group of loyal readers that appreciate the valuable information that he has provided via his blog, perhaps some of them would love to have some silver with the Anarchy mark for that reason alone, perhaps some might feel a desire to support the cause… his cause.
The mark up seems pretty reasonable if not overly modest to me. I doubt it is more than the mark up made by those that buy and sell precious metals at the coins shops… what service are they providing other than buying from sellers and then turning around and selling to buyers? How does one put a value on that service? Again, the market place dictates what people are willing to pay for any given product or service.
If I disagree with anything he did, it is the fact that he seemed to feel he needed to explain and justify to you and me and others what his gross margin was in relation to his personal efforts in the project… frankly I don’t think that is anyone’s business.
When was the last time you asked the guy at the service station how much mark up he was making on the gas you purchased from him? Does it bother you that you were paying twice as much for gas a few months ago? Doesn’t that mean someone is making obscene profits? Why aren’t you interrogating everyone in the supply chain in the oil industry?
Do you ask the cashier at Walmart to tell you what the mark up is and how much profit they are making? Do you ask them if they use their paycheck to provide for their family?
When you purchase a car do you ask the salesman what his commission is or the car dealer what his mark up is? I suspect they would all tell you to go to H#*L. Do you accuse them of trying to extract tithing from you?
It appears to me that he has put countless hours into research that he provides for free on this blog. I suspect there are lots of people who really appreciate his efforts and would consider it an honor to purchase some silver with a symbol that perhaps represents the knowledge and values represented in his writings.
I can’t help but be a little curious to know what you are doing at this site… did you just happen to google a few key words and end up here for the first time? I doubt it. Could it be possible that you have been here more than once to review information that is of interest to you and at the least being entertained but more than likely gaining additional perspective and/or knowledge, perhaps even being enlightened and learning wisdom… if so, how strange that you would feel so critical of his efforts at a time when he clearly has a family crisis of some kind.
As a potential consumer, you have the opportunity to evaluate his offer and accept it if you feel it is a service that you need and if you feel it is a good value… or for that matter if you feel it is a worthwhile investment.
If it is not a product or service that you need, or if you don’t feel it is a good value or a worthy cause, DON’T BUY IT!
Why the scarcity mentality? Why would you be bothered by the fact that he might need to use his profits to support his family?
Are we not all beggars in the sight of God?
Should we not all be bearing each others burdens?
Perhaps I am especially dense, please have patience:
100 1-oz is roughly $1000.
100 1-oz makes 200 1/2-oz coins.
1/10 of 200 1/2-oz coins is 20 1/2-oz coins
vvvvvvvv This is where I’m confused!!!
$2/coin strike fee * 200 coins = $400 (or 180 1/2 coins @ $2.22/coin)
We agree that the total strike fee is $400. Each 1/2-oz coin is worth $5 (assuming 1-oz is $10). I would have to sell 80 1/2 oz coins on the open market at $5 each in order to raise $400 for the strike fee. So of the 200 1/2-oz coins 80 of them go to pay for striking and 20 of them (1/10) go to you leaving me with 100 of them.
Dear Abundance vs Scarcity,
I think skeptic’s point is that people will do the math and realize that (1/10) is a bit high for themselves and therefore will “DON’T BUY IT!” (or will instead buy 1 oz coins that don’t have this overhead). If the Lord told LDSAnarchist to charge 1/10 then who is he (are we) to argue? However, from a pure business point this seems unrealistic. Yes some people (out of charity, good cause, etc.) will buy these (1/10 overhead) coins. How many more people would buy (1/100 overhead) coins? If Nancy or Richard (or any one of us) notice that these coins are flying out the door, a smart businessman would want in one the action and undercut LDSAnarchist’s 1/10 cut, charging less and getting this business. In anticipation of this why not charge a much smaller amount (perhaps 1/10 of the strike fee instead of 1/10 of the coins)?
anon
From a purely business point of view, I agree with your (and skeptical’s) point that adjusting the price down might make a huge difference in a positive way for everyone… the buyer gets a better deal and the seller does more business by selling more at a reduced price which might ultimately generate more profit for the anarchist… that is basically what I was alluding to when I was saying that the market dictates the price.
Many companies start with a higher price and end up lowering it if market response is low. Conversely, is they are overwhelmed with a great response, they will higher the price.
Of course all of that does not account for the fact that this opportunity has been presented as being inspired… I am not going to pass judgment that it wasn’t.
Again, from a purely business point of view your other point about people competing with the anarchist is certainly valid under normal market conditions. I guess an important factor is the underlying motivation of the market being addressed. The anarchist appears to at least be starting off with a small targeted market of people that sympathize with him and his world view.
Lastly, I guess I am still struggling with the concept that it is wrong for him to use the funds anyway he so chooses… including, but not limited to providing for his family.
Lastly, lastly, I think I deserve some credit for keeping this response under 500 words.
Will all due respect to Watcher’s comments that I provided too much information, I will provide some more numbers as this may give people a better idea of just what it will costs to mint these coins. If my math is off, someone will please correct me.
Here is the breakdown using $10/oz silver as the hypothetical price of silver:
Minimum order = 100 coins
50 oz produces 100 1/2-oz coins
$2.00 minting charge per coin
100 coins times $2.00 = $200
50 oz of $10/oz silver = $500
1/10 of produced coins = 10 coins (this goes to the die owner)
9/10 of produced coins = 90 coins (this goes to you)
Equation: Total Minting Cost ($200) + Total Silver Cost ($500) divided by 9/10 of produced coins (90) = Total Cost Per 1/2-oz Coin ($7.77). This means that 2 1/2-oz coins = $15.55 per oz (at $10/oz silver.) For calculations using other silver prices, see the following:
$5/oz silver = $10.00 per oz.
$6/oz silver = $11.11 per oz.
$7/oz silver = $12.22 per oz.
$8/oz silver = $13.33 per oz.
$9/oz silver = $14.44 per oz.
$10/oz silver = $15.55 per oz.
$11/oz silver = $16.66 per oz.
$12/oz silver = $17.77 per oz.
$13/oz silver = $18.88 per oz.
$14/oz silver = $20.00 per oz.
$15/oz silver = $21.11 per oz., etc.
As always, a coin is a finished product, not just a lump of silver, so you have to factor in manufacturing costs (minting costs) as well as the cost of the dies, in addition to the cost of the silver. A person is free to sell a coin for less than its finished product costs, but people usually don’t want to create a product only to sell it as a loss. This is why you typically see silver bullion coins sold for more than the cost of the silver in them.
Anon, you are free to take 80 of the 180 coins you end up with and sell them at $5 a piece to recoup the $400 you spent on minting costs, leaving you with 100 left. This means that the $1000 you spent on silver was used to mint 100 coins, at $10 a coin. Then you’ll need to sell the 100 coins for $5 each (the spot price) to recoup the $500 of the $1000 you spent on silver, leaving you with no coins and -$500 dollars. If we are to follow your math to its conclusion, therefore, it should show that you end up with no coins whatsoever and a $500 loss.
Obviously, such math is absurd. The truth of the matter is that you end up with 180 coins, which cost you “x” amount of dollars to produce, and which you can use to barter with, sell for “y” amount of dollars, use as a store of value, teach others about economics, sterilize water, disinfect wounds, create an electrical circuit, or any of the other myriad uses of silver and/or money.
I have some investments in precious metals and am always interested in expanding those investments. I am not one to say whether or not this idea was inspired but it could go two ways, and depending on which way it goes I will consider it differently. If LDSA was inspired to introduce a currency that will persevere through the upcoming crisis and allow for bartering if/when all else has failed, sign me up. If he was inspired to introduce this currency for “other reasons” then it behooves me to treat it as a precious metals investment the same as I would if I were buying bullion from anywhere else, basically, if I can get silver through this way cheaper than other ways, I’ll get it. If I find a better deal on silver somewhere else, I’ll go there.
I hope you guys will all forgive me for stating the obvious. I’m not against this sort of thing, mind you. I think it’s quite creative and interesting. I have some gold certificates, because I like the idea but wouldn’t want to carry gold around with me or store it in my attic.
1. a stamped coin is stamped for the purposes of authority. for anarchists, who believe (in theory) in localized authority, a handshake or a seashell should be as useful for barter as a coin.
2. silver and gold are totally useless metals from a survivalist standpoint. if the present authority structure breaks down (and the conspiracy kooks have been predicting this since i was in junior high, twenty years ago) then value will be utility. you can’t eat a silver coin or drink it. you can’t plant it in your back yard and watch it grow. you can’t use it to amuse yourself, have sex with it, or do anything else with it in a non-technological scenario. so, what’s it good for?
The only reason I can come up with to have precious metals in a time of crisis is to perhaps bribe the cop guarding the Bering Straits to let me and my kids enter the Russian Republic. The chances of the scenario are so farfetched that they seem comical, but for the life of me I can’t think of a more likely scenario in which they’d come in handy… and for bribing customs agents, a Krugerrand works as well as the Anarchist dollar.
Just my opinion. It has been an interesting topic and I appreciated thinking about it.
for anarchists, who believe (in theory) in localized authority, a handshake or a seashell should be as useful for barter as a coin.
A handshake or a seashell have little value to most people.
you can’t eat a silver coin or drink it. you can’t plant it in your back yard and watch it grow. you can’t use it to amuse yourself, have sex with it, or do anything else with it in a non-technological scenario. so, what’s it good for?
Gold and silver have been used as media of exchange for millenia. Why would that be any different in the near future?
A handshake or a seashell have little value to most people.
In a time of financial collapse, a handshake will have far more intrinsic value than an ounce of silver will.
Gold and silver have been used as media of exchange for millenia. Why would that be any different in the near future?
Gold and silver haven’t been used as media of exchange for over 200 years.
Again, you didn’t answer the question: What, exactly, is silver and gold good for outside of the psychological idea that it’s “valuable”?
It’s only “valuable” because someone else tells you it is. In short, you’d be far better off just printing up pieces of paper and saving the trouble of mining and engraving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_dinar
Hope this helps…
Interesting idea. I wouldn’t pay that kind of a premium to buy your coins though. I can and have been buying silver and gold coins for better prices. I know where I can buy 1 oz silver coins for $10.48 delivered right now. Can’t understand why you would have to go to Mexico with only $3000 to buy silver. You can buy it with a mouseclick from your computer and not incur all the expense and travel time it took to go to mexico.
However, there is a real problem with your plan as i see it. People like paper money and not coins.
I have come across a plan to make paper gold and silver. A man I am in contact with claims to have a procedure to make paper gold and silver. He would produce a paper or plastic note with gold embedded in it, distributed in minute particles throughout the note. Notes would have a face value of 1 gram, 5 grams, 10 grams etc and the note would contain that amount of gold or silver in it. It would not be marked as a dollar or ruble or yen or anything like that. Just show the gold or silver content it contained. If the note were burned the gold or silver would remain and could be weighed to determine the stated content was accurate. using this type of money would destroy fractional reserve banking and all fiat money which are the two great evils controlling and manipulating all people by the ruling elite.
Some numbers for grams:
1 troy oz =31.1 grams (gold $812 oz- silver $10.20 oz)
1 gram gold= 1/31 of an oz or about $26.00
1 gram silver = 1/31 of an oz or about .33 so a 3 gram silver note would be about 1 dollar.
A 15 gram silver note would contain about $5 worth of silver
If using only gold to get a $1.00 note equivalent you would have to use grains of measurement.
Some numbers for grains:
1 troy oz = 480 grains. A 1 grain gold note would be worth about $1.69
$100 equivalent gold note would contain approx 3.89 grams or 60 grains of gold.
Under a system like this there would be no fiat money as all “paper” money would contain a stated amount of gold or silver in grains or grams. Prices would be set in
silver or gold grain or gram notes.
Notes could be manufactured in various gram/grain amounts to approximate our current $1, $5, $10, $20, $50, $100 notes. Big difference is they would contain that amount of the physical metal silver or gold. Actually under a system like this you could
use only gold to make all the various denomination with grain notes for the smaller notes and grams for the larger. This is the best idea yet that I have heard for makind sound, real, honest money. Combine the convenience and familiarity of paper money with the incorruptible precious metals. These couldn’t be counterfeited and most importantly couldn’t be printed out of thin air by governments. The only role government would have in this type of money would be to monitor and routinely test the notes which would be produced by private manufacturers to make sure they contained the stated face amount of the two metals. This would destroy the power of the government to print money out of thin air.
The problem with gold or silver is that at todays prices it is very difficult to transact smaller purchases in silver and especially gold as the coins would have to be very tiny.
Greg Scott
A friend of mine by the name of Matt Curtis met a guy on his mission in California may years ago by the name of Greg Scott… would that be you?
Nope. I went on mission to South Korea and have never lived in California.
Just curious… thanks for the response.. BTW I would love to learn more about that process if it is close to becoming a reality…
Gregoire, you’re making a lot of assertions with no factual support. In fact, some of your assertions are clearly incorrect. For example:
Gold and silver haven’t been used as media of exchange for over 200 years.
A rudimentary knowledge of history would have disproved this claim. As for the rest of what you’ve said and asked, you seem to be falling victim to the so-called “paradox of value” (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_value ).
It’s only “valuable” because someone else tells you it is.
Another laughable assertion. Gold and silver (and copper, though it is a less efficient store of value) each have dozens of uses, from the very practical to the more technological. But a cursory web search would have told you this.
Unfortunately, I overlooked your first comment under this article, which reveals much of the root of your difficulties:
Personally, I liken [fiat money] to a credit card, which can be used to create wealth if the subject is prudent and thoughtful, but has the potential to be disastrous for people who are irresponsible.
A credit card (or other form of credit) only creates wealth in the sense that it is a means by which two entities with very different time preferences take advantage of one another through a mutually beneficial interest rate. Fiat money serves no such purpose. It is not a form of credit. It is, by its very definition, without value. The only means by which wealth can be created is through free trade or by transforming resources into goods (which is just another form of trade). In other words, value/wealth is produced by an active effort; it cannot be willed or forced into existence.
A rudimentary knowledge of history would have disproved this claim.
funny how you didn’t offer a shred of evidence to disprove it. face it: people haven’t regularly used gold and silver coins since the 1700s. people were using paper notes in the massachusetts bay colony before either of our countries existed. hope that helps.
*snip another mile of text*
you still haven’t answered the question. what exactly can you do with gold and silver if the power goes out at your house. how about if you’re lost in the woods. if you took a gold coin to your local supermarket, right now, would they give you groceries for it?
take your time and figure it out. gold and silver are worth nothing. zero. nada. they have no ‘intrinsic’ value. ergo: better to print paper notes and save the environment the trouble of the extraction.
One of the many problems with paper money Gregoire is that is can be printed up at will and inflate the money supply to the point of worthlessness. The Fed cannot print Gold. The best option in many ways is paper money that is backed by a commodity like Gold as it used to be. Then the money supply can increase but only as fast as gold can be mined. Which is a much more controlled rate than hundred dollar bills on a zerox machine. I won’t even go into the problems with fractional reserve banking…
Dear truthseeker,
Mining is a disaster for the environment. Ask anyone in W. Virginia or Northern Ontario to get the idea. Re: inflation…
In my youth I made quite a bit of free money buying short term investments with a credit card which I never would have been able to afford otherwise. I paid the balance in full every month and never paid a dime of interest. For the last ten years I’ve had no debt at all, except for a mortgage, though I do have credit cards in my wallet which I never use. Part of the reason I’ve lived a comfortable life was due to using the aforementioned credit cards starting out.
Paper money can be used by a society in the same way. Used judiciously, it’s a way to jump-start an economy.
face it: people haven’t regularly used gold and silver coins since the 1700s.
I see you’ve changed the wording of your claim from “Gold and silver haven’t been used as medi[um] of exchange” to “people haven’t regularly used gold and silver coins” (emphasis added). In either case, you are incorrect. The dollar was backed by gold until the middle of the twentieth century, and people regularly held gold coins at least until Roosevelt confiscated them.
people were using paper notes in the massachusetts bay colony before either of our countries existed.
You can’t be serious. The Massachusetts notes were backed by precious metals. They were not fiat currency.
Gregoire, at this point it’s clear to me that you’re not going to look past your deep-seated biases enough to think rationally about the economics of money, or to argue honestly. You’ve done nothing but make baseless assertions, which, when pressed, you have tried to back up with transparently meaningless anecdotes. There is no hope of convincing you, and you have no hope of convincing anyone else with such empty rhetoric. As such, I’ll leave the discussion as it stands, unless someone brings up some reasonable objections to the superiority of actual money over fiat currency.
As for your question about the intrinsic value of gold and silver, the same could be asked about any item that would be suitable for use as money. Granted, in a crisis it’s possible that traditional money might be difficult to use, but crises are short-lived. For these, food storage is highly advisable, but for the longer term, gold and silver are among the best bases for money. The idea that an item can only have value for you if you or someone you know can put it to direct use is unbelievably shortsighted. How can you have such strong opinions about economics with so little understanding of the field?
If you seek knowledge, take the time to give Mises’ Theory of Money and Credit (mises.org/books/tmc.pdf) an honest read. Note, in the title: Money and Credit. They are not the same thing, though you have been conflating them in your anecdotes.
Hope that helps.
Well done LDSA, I can appreciate the courage it would take to move forward when the spirit prompts something along these lines. I do not think you need to justify or try to “sell it” as a good deal. If the Spirit walked you through this, then that should be enough.
As far as the debate going on about gold and silver not being useful or of “value”, anyone who has been to the temple knows that gold and silver will always be at the root of monetary systems and the focus of the greedy as long as Lucifer is loose on the earth.
Dear RWW,
*snip another kook-rant*
You’ve reversed yourself again. Suddenly it’s “O.K.” to print paper money and exchange it, so long as it’s “backed by gold and silver”. The U.S. dollar issued by the federal reserve bank is still backed by gold, silver, groceries or whatever you’d like, de facto. If it weren’t, survivalist kooks and right-wing nutters like yourself wouldn’t be able to trade those ‘worthless’ paper dollars for gold coins at inflated prices. Hope *that* helps, and glad we agree.
PallasAthena, to be honest, I only posted this here on this blog because it deals with the topics of anarchy, prophecy and spiritual manifestation. My assessment of the LDS is such that I never expected any of us to be interested in such a currency. We are, generally speaking, addicted to the current system and I expect we will support it to the end, even if it means we will feel the effects of that end. My expectation is that the Lord will bring non-members who are looking to separate themselves from the system to the knowledge of these dies. I am accordingly advertising their existence far and wide using non-LDS avenues, but leaving off the prophetic/spiritual aspects of them. It is through such advertising and other means that I believe that the interested people will be informed. Nevertheless, the questions posed on these comments have been of help in explaining the costs of the currency to non-LDS inquirers, so I appreciate all viewpoints.
I’m trying to keep out of this, but I do have to stand by Gregoire on this one. I respect what LDS Anarchist is trying to do, and I hope it works out for him. I respect that he is willing to pray for guidance, and head out into unknown territory in order to follow try and follow that guidance. I certainly do not question the personal spiritual experiences of others.
This issue does highlight a difference I have with LDS Anarchist, and some others on this blog apparently. I tend to be more of an anarcho-socialist, while LDS Anarchist leans more toward market anarchy it seems (correct me if I am wrong). Currency of any kind tends to be irrelevant, and precious metals have caused more harm than good as far as I’m concerned. I could bring the Book of Enoch and other scriptures up here, but I’m going to stick to the practical. Not only do I dislike the environmental consequences of constantly digging into the earth for these metals, but their use as currency has been the cause of a lot of bloodshed and horror. False priests and tyrants have all used them to get power over people. My personal ideal would be Gregoire’s ideal of the handshake. I like Thomas More’s description of the use of gold and silver in his Utopia: use them for utilitarian purposes like bowls and things. Use jewelry for toys for children so they grow up and see how silly it all is (hopefully). That way people don’t fight over them.
In the end I am more fascinated by our current system of plastic cards and blips on a computer than I am troubled by it. That’s not to say I think everything’s Okay. We definitely seem to be headed for trouble. Like Gregoire, I feel that the trouble is caused more by recklessness and greed than the system itself. But if the system collapses, I personally don’t see any currency being of value other than actual needs like food, clothing, and shelter.
I just now came across this: Free Lakota Bank. They accept gold and silver money for deposit. These days are getting more and more interesting…
Btw, Joseph, you asked to be corrected if you were wrong concerning what type of anarchist I am. It seems that others have also gotten the opinion that I am an anarcho-capitalist. That I know of, I have never definitively stated where on the anarcho-scale I can be found, though I believe I have indirectly implied it. So, so that there is no longer any confusion as to where I stand, let me categorically state that I am a TRIBAL ANARCHIST.
This just in: the Free Lakota Bank has stated that they would accept this bartering currency for deposit.
Thanks for clarifying. I respect independent thought, so I’m not especially concerned where you are on the spectrum, but it does help to understand where you are coming from. I’ve already clarified my issues with tribal anarchy: that I don’t always get along with my family. Don’t get me wrong, I love both sides of my family, I just don’t want them having control over me.
I am glad to hear about the Lakota Bank. In disagreeing with your using precious metals for currency I do realize I am also disagreeing with both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith, who both expressed a desire to establish an alternative currency to what was developing in the United States, and both wanted to use precious metals. Brigham Young, I believe, went so far as to try to establish such a currency. But I am a poet, not an economist. I’m glad someone out there is thinking about these things. Good luck!
Like a said before, I was mainly just trying to stick up for Gregoire, who was getting slammed for some pretty reasonable ideas.
Another quick note: the above post has been updated with new text and information and the wording changed to reflect a new payment schedule. Whereas before the die owner (me) received a tenth part of the output as payment for use of my dies, now I will receive a hundredth part. This means that for every 100 pieces minted, 99 go to the customer while 1 goes to me.
I don’t understand this talk of an anarcho-scale, or spectrum, or types of anarchists. You’re either an anarchist or you’re some shade of non-anarchist. If you’re an anarchist, then you have to accept the free market (AKA capitalism) — which is really just a synonym for anarchy — which means that you have to allow people to live under socialism if they choose, and you have to allow people to form (peaceful) tribes if they choose. Anything people choose to do in the absence of coercion is anarchy, which is to say the free market in action, so why bother with distinctions? Is it to point out what kind of voluntary society you would join if you were free to do so? In LDSA’s case, I think it is also a statement of what he thinks the world would look like under anarchy (correct me if I’m wrong). Based on the information available to me, I don’t fully disagree.
Why the change in the payment arrangements?
Dear RWW,
Since you’re having trouble with the concept: look up Nestor Makhno.
The anarchist ideal, at least as I understand it, (and I hope LDSA or someone else will correct me if I’m off base) isn’t one single political or economic reality. It’s more a minimalist framework which small groups can use to set up an autonomous community.
Lenin wrote a great work on Anarchy called State and Revolution, which had to do with the Paris Commune. When you’re done with Makhno you can read that.
Admittedly, I don’t understand how the “no gods no masters” ideals of Bakunin and the like can be reconciled to Mormonism. All I’m sure of is that a few people have done it. They seem to be sincere about it, and it works for them.
Were I in my early 20s rather than my late 30s, I probably would have made myself more familiar with the LDS Anarchy thing. When I was a radical student (1988-1992) our crowd were old school Marxist-Leninists, and we generally left the church of Ezra Taft Benson behind in the process.
Best,
Pardon the multiple posts, but Joseph, you seem reasonable and it’s starting to make me believe that you have something valuable to say. Specifically,
But if the system collapses, I personally don’t see any currency being of value other than actual needs like food, clothing, and shelter.
I’m curious as to whether you can explain why gold and silver, which have been used as media of exchange for thousands of years, might not serve that purpose in the future. I assume this is one of Gregoire’s “reasonable ideas” that you’d like to defend. Since no one has given an actual argument for it yet, I wonder, do you have some support to offer?
Gregoire,
A man in his late thirties who doesn’t even know what it means for a currency to be backed by gold and silver, nor the difference between credit and money, nor even seems capable of forming an argument without multiple falsehoods and meaningless insults based on pure presumption, is in no position to offer me reading suggestions.
But I appreciate the thought.
RWW, the anarchists I’ve come across seem to fight more among themselves over what is “a proper anarchist” than with statists over the reasons why a State isn’t the greatest good. Each “type” of anarchist has their own label for themselves and anyone who isn’t of that particular label isn’t a “true” anarchist. That is why many anarchists won’t accept the Mormon variety as real, etc. It is kind of the same with Christians, who wish to define the term “Christian” as meaning a specific thing and not an umbrella in which all who believe in Christ can claim to come under. Thus, a Mormon Christian is a contradiction in terms (according to them.) So, in a similar manner, the term anarchist or anarchism will mean different things to different people, and unless you subscribe to the specific label of anarchism, you are merely anarchist lite (to them.)
I tire of the labels and choose not to label myself, except to say that I am a believer in tribal anarchism. But under tribal anarchism, what form must that take? The answer is any form the tribe wants it to take. So, I find these anarcho-labels silly.
Concerning the payment changes, the short answer is I changed it due to a prompting of the Spirit. The long answer is that I received this prompting after talking with an individual who explained to me his group’s model to get the country using silver as money again. The model was good (as in sound) but it was based upon the present business model. He invited me to incorporate the bartering currency into his group’s model, but that I would have to fundamentally change the payment structure to accommodate the business model. He also indicated that my model, not being very business-like, would fail. If I incorporated and made the necessary changes, the bartering currency would succeed, along with his currencies. Although his ultimate goal was probably to bring sound money to the people again, he and his group were doing so in a manner that would enrich themselves.
After hanging up the phone and thinking about it, I realized that he was probably right, that business-wise, his was the stronger model. But as I looked over his currencies, I realized that none of them appeared to have been directly inspired of God. Indirect inspiration, yes, but direct, not a one. The promotion and wide-spread use of his model would not do what the Spirit was telling me to do. The prompting I got as I thought over these things was that his invitation to competition should be taken up fully, that I should drop the die use payment to an exceedingly small amount to directly compete with these Babylon-based silver currencies and merely exercise faith that the model the bartering coins is based on would succeed and not fail. The Spirit indicated that the bartering currency was more than just a response to the economic situation, but was a vehicle to fundamentally change society. The other currencies sought to keep the status quo, but with silver-based money, not fiat money. As such our goals were fundamentally different and the Spirit indicated that I ought to operate the currency on altogether different principles.
I realize that this may not be practical, but I’d rather live my life prophetically, not practically.
“This means that for every 100 pieces minted, 99 go to the customer while 1 goes to me.”
That is a pretty significant change in the offer. I am not sure why you would not put up a new post to make that announcement..
I have deleted my article so as to make sure people don’t miss the change.
If anyone was not finished with the article I posted and wanted to finish it I apologize for the inconvenience, you can finish reading it at this link: http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/66/
Also I saved the comments and responses and put them in the comment section at that site
Thanks
watching
Gregoire,
A man in his late thirties who doesn’t even know what it means for a currency to be backed by gold and silver, nor the difference between credit and money, nor even seems capable of forming an argument without multiple falsehoods and meaningless insults based on pure presumption, is in no position to offer me reading suggestions.
But I appreciate the thought.
*snark-o-rama*
OWIW, I didn’t put it up as a separate post because I don’t expect the LDS to do anything with this information. In my mind, I posted here because of its spiritual aspects, not because I expect anyone here to act on it. My promotions to non-members in other places about this currency are really the important announcements. You needn’t ever feel that you should wait to post anything or even delete anything you write because you want another post to be the first post on the home page. That goes for Spek, Tony, Rod, and what4anarchy, too. Each post will stand or fall on its own merits, whether or not it is on the home page. OWIW, I’m just glad that you at least put that article up somewhere else with a link, as I still have only gotten time enough to go through about half of it!
LDSAnarchist-
I agree with you but I hope we are wrong.
One question, with the new payment schedule, how would it work if I minted 50 coins? Would you get a credit for a half a coin with one being set a side and me only getting 49 and a cash reimbursement for the other half a coin? Then when someone else mints 50 the same thing happens to them and the one set aside goes to the die owner?
OWIW-
Thanks for putting your post up on your blog. It usually takes me a little time to work through your posts, and I hadn’t finished that one yet.
PallasAthena, the minimum order is 100 coins, so I’ll always get at least one coin out of each order. I do not know whether the mint will require 100 coin increments so that I always get the 100th piece, or whether they will allow any increment after 100 coins. If the latter, I’ll probably just tell them to let the customer know that from 101-200 coins, I’ll always get one coin, whether they mint 101 or 150 or 200 and that that will apply to each set that follows: 201-300, 301-400, etc.
PallasAthena, let me word the above a little better. Here is how it is stated in the promotions I am currently running:
I hate to add to an already large number of comments, but my name has been brought up since I last wrote.
RWW, I am not an economist, so LDSA is definitely dealing with issues I feel out of my league on. But I do know that you can only barter for what others see as valuable. Let’s say someone has a family heirloom of some kind that you would pay any price for, but the individual won’t sell it for any price. It doesn’t matter what kind of currency you have, it’s not going to do you any good.
Now Let’s say our system collapses and I have managed to obtain some good hard currency (meaning, in this context, gold or silver coins). I and my family are starving. I then come across someone who has food and shelter. Is he going to be willing to trade? I feel it is probably not likely to happen following whatever traumatic event destroyed the system. They are going to hold on to their food because that is what is most valuable, and you can’t eat gold. Now if I can offer a type of food that individual doesn’t have, there is more likely to be some kind of barter.
This is not to say I am disregarding what LDSA is doing. Like I said before, I don’t question the spiritual experiences of others. And following the Spirit can often lead to unexpected benefits, even if what we thought was going to happen doesn’t.
And thanks for the reading suggestions, Gregoire. Even if I don’t agree with everything they say, I do find their ideas interesting.
Right now, though, I just wish I had more time for poetry and a good Philip K. Dick novel! All this political and economic stuff is giving me a headache.
Now for the anarchy label thing. I regret called myself anything. But I do want to give the back story as to what drew me to this blog.
A number of years ago I was reading transcripts of several semesters of an honors course given by Hugh Nibley at BYU on the Book of Mormon that had been made available through F.A.R.M.S. During one of the semesters Nibley left and a colleague of his took over for the discussion that involved 4 Nephi. This individual (I think the last name was Welch) pointed out the lack of government in 4 Nephi (he was disturbed by it because he was a lawyer). Why I was excited by this would require too lengthy a discussion of previous friends, research, and my own political leanings. But anyway, it was exciting to me, because I realized he was right.
It was discovering LDSA’s discussion of this lack of government in the Book of Mormon (through a Google search), and being excited that someone else had seen it too, that brought me here. I have stayed so far because of the interesting discussion and the opportunity to say things I have to bite my tongue before saying in all other LDS Church settings. I hope that not too many have a problem with me continuing to stay.
I do want to formally withdraw my statement that I am an anarcho-anything, however. In person I have always told others I am part of the “too disorganized [and nonconformist] to even be an anarchist” party. So I’ll just belong to that as soon as I get organized enough to actually form it.
Hey Joseph,
I really enjoyed your web page this evening. If you like surrealism you should definitely check out Baudelaire’s Fleurs du Mal and Lautreamont’s Maldoror. I’m not a huge fan of the movement but those are two of my favorite works.
I think you’ve got the right idea. Money is anything that represents *work done*. I’d love to see the Federal Reserve change over from the dollar to the hour (as in hour of labour), which will be set as the minimum wage and fixed at some reasonable value (such as 15 dollars US) on today’s market.
Nutters and kooks like convicted felon Lyndon LaRouche and the neo-nazi Bo Gritz are always hawking gold coins as some sort of “honest” currency. It’s always amusing to hear about the fleecing of the sheeple at gun shows and racialist gatherings, where such con-men clean up on that ‘worthless’ fiat money, generally leaving their fans broke and responsible to secure large amounts of precious metals in their homes (where thieves break through and steal, as the saying goes).
Take Care,
G
Thanks for the complement on my web page. It was thrown together for web design class a few years ago and I haven’t updated it much. I keep expecting it to disappear at some point. But it was fun. I’m actually more interested in Dada (I read German, not French, and Breton was too much of a dictator) but people who don’t like Surrealism usually don’t like Dada for the same reasons. Surrealist materials were just more readily at hand, so that’s why I went with that. I’m of course familiar with Fleurs de Mal (a beautiful work), but Lautreamont is new to me, so I will definitely check that out.
I do agree with you on your definition of money. Whatever gets me food on the table, and a few luxuries like books and music, is what works for me. My aversion to precious metals is due to my aversion to mining. Mining doesn’t really need to be reinvigorated. I’m definitely hoping for a more green economy (meaning of course more ecologically sustainable, I don’t care what color money is).
But I’m not willing to lump everyone who wants metal money in with Bo Gritz. I certainly agree with LDSA’s intentions. And from an aesthetic perspective, his designs are a lot more cool than the boring stuff we use now!
But I’ve distracted too much from this topic, so I will leave it in the hands of those who understand it better than I do.
This is a portion of an email I sent today to someone inquiring about these coins. I include it here as it may give additional ideas:
Still don’t see why I should buy your coins. What is the benefit over and above other minted silver coins; both generic rounds like yours would be and coins minted by government mints like american eagles and maple leafs, panda’s, etc? I have been buying and am continuing to buy these coins as a store of value and hedge against my expectation of a continued dollar collapse.
I can buy plenty of silver at .50 or above spot in bar form or industrial shot. Silver is silver. Who cares how it is formed and whose face or image is on it? I am not trying to belittle what you are doing I just fail to see what benefit you are bringing to the silver and gold as money issue.
Here are some mints and their fees to turn silver into minted coins:
http://coinable.com/
Below $1.77/coin for over 1000.
1 – 866 – 469 – 6468
20783 N 83rd Ave
Suite 103-484
Peoria, AZ 85382
http://www.challengecoinminting.net
$1.21/coin for over 5000
http://www.allaboutchallengecoins.com/pricing.html
$2.45 for 1000+
http://www.coinsforanything.com/prices.htm
$2.20 ea. for 1000+
As you can see you are getting ripped off. Minting anything less than 1000 is a very small order.
Greg, thanks for your concern, but I think you need to put more research into it. Try asking any of these mints (or any others that you can find) if they can make .999 fine silver bullion coins in the following sizes: 1/2-oz, 1/4-oz, 1/5-oz, 1/10-oz, 1/20-oz, 1/50-oz or 1/100-oz. While you are at it, try asking them if they can make 1-oz, 2-oz and 5-oz .999 fine silver bullion coins. Then, ask them the same questions concerning gold. Then return and report your findings. I predict that none of them will say that they can do it, yet The Collector’s Mint can do it. In fact, if I were to prophesy, I’d say that many of the mints of this nation will soon be going out of business, just like many of the other retail establishments are closing their doors. But The Collector’s Mint will remain open for business, because these coins, and this currency, that I have begun, will keep them open.
To answer your question concerning why this coin is superior than other bullion coins: it is because it is the beginning of a currency. As in the Mexican peso is a currency, the Canadian dollar is a currency, the Euro is a currency. So, in like manner, these coins will monetize silver and start an anarchic, bartering currency that will be readily accepted by the people in exchange for goods or services. Only this currency will cross national borders.
A 1 1/100 oz of silver is to small to be of any use. I would much rather have a 2 grain gold filled note which contains about a little over $1.00 worth of gold. If a coin is to small it is easy to lose and who wants to carry around a huge mount of weight.? $100 worth of silver weighs 10 oz. To much weight to carry around. $100 worth of gold in a gold-filled note only weighs .129 oz. which is negligible. If you carry around $775 you have an oz. of gold filled notes, still negligible. To carry around $775 in silver you have to have almost 80 oz. Way to heavy to carry around. Gold containing notes are much more practical in my opinion than silver. The problem with gold coins being used as money is the value versus the size. Even a 1/10 oz gold coin, worth about $78 is tiny- smaller than a dime. Hard to not lose and still way to valuable to use for most average transactions. So how do you get down to dollar sizes coins? Can’t with gold and to heavy with silver. Therefore a gold containing note which looks like a dollar, 5 dollar, 10 dollar, etc except it contains actual grains of gold easily solves this issue. Can’t be printed out of thin air because it contains real gold. Therefore it can’t be inflated and controlled by government. Definitely can’t be printed out of thin air like all current fiat money.
Gold and silver already cross national borders. An oz. of gold or silver have value worldwide and are exchanged daily. It would be better if instead of dollars, yen, euros, etc the notes state only their content in gold and nothing else. Then you would truly have a universal currency, completely backed by gold and accepted everywhere. Prices would be set in grains, grams, or ounces of gold everywhere. Pegging them to a dollar or a euro defeats the purpose. Notice how a $50 dollar american gold eagle containing an ounce of gold is really worth about $850? Far better to just say 1 oz of gold and leave off the stupid dollar moniker.
I agree that precious metal coins should just state the weight without any pegging to a national currency.
As it has now popped into my head, I want to mention here a couple of things:
1) Click here to see a sample coin minted by the company that is making the bartering currency, along with a review of their work.
2) Counterfeiting silver coins would be difficult, if not entirely impossible. Three checking methods could quickly determine whether any .999 silver coin was pure silver. First, a weight check. If it says 1 Troy ounce it should be 1 Troy ounce. Simple enough. Second, a magnetic test with a weak magnet would quickly determine whether there is ferrous material inside. The magnet will stick to the coin if fake. Finally, a magnetic test with a strong neodymium magnet would reveal if the content was pure silver. As silver is a diamagnetic material, it will react to the magnetic field in precisely predicable ways. A device could be constructed by any competent engineer to test all three aspects of any .999 coin easily and quickly. Correctly calibrated, no counterfeit coin could pass without detection.
Is this your ad on Craigslist?
http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/clt/932699388.html
I am focussing on advertising using a flyer. (See this comment above.) Anyone is free to take the wording from my flyer and put it into a Craigslist ad, if they want, or even the images of the coins on this post. In fact, feel free to advertise it anywhere you please, including using the flyer (or some other invention of your choice.)
Just last night, in the dead of night, in fact, I made copies of this flyer and put them all around my town: at churches, at barber shops, at businesses, at coin and jeweler shops, at supermarkets and on top of newspaper dispensers, etc. I just slip them undernead the door or use a small, inexpensive but powerful magnet to attach it to a ferrous surface where visible. I don’t know if anyone is interested in these flyers, but feel free to do the same. I’ll probably put flyers tonight at the ATM’s all around town, after all, people have money on their mind when they go there, so maybe that is the right time to see the promotion…
The only church I didn’t place a flyer at was the Mormon church. I don’t believe that anyone in the church would take it to the Stake President or to any bishops, but even if someone did, I wouldn’t expect them to do anything about it or make an announcement or post it somewhere where it could be seen, so, I’m leaving it up to the Christian churches to do something.
Here’s another promotion that I’m doing. To put it all together, here are the two flyers I’ve made so far:
Bartering Currency Teaser Flyer
Bartering Currency Flyer
According to the latest post of The International Forecaster, we’ve got two weeks left of low gold prices before gold starts to go up, up, up:
As silver follows gold, that means I’ve got two weeks to get the word out before the spot price starts to get expensive and beyond the reach of the common man. For anyone who is interested in promoting these coins, use YouTube, email, Craigslist, Backpage, farmer’s markets, the flyers or anything else you can think of. If The International Forecaster is right, time is quickly running out.
I spoke to what4anarchy last night and he said he’s going to order some of this currency soon. He said in about a week he should have the coins in hand. I said that it sounds like he hadn’t called the mint yet, because if he had he would have learned that it takes 8 weeks to get the planchets and then 1-2 days to strike the coins. That took him by surprise and he decided he better step up his ordering date. I never included that little bit of information in the above post because the minting company would have explained to anyone who contacted them, anyway, but listening to his reaction last night, and that that little bit of knowledge changed his plans somewhat, I’ve decided to explain it in this addendum comment.
According to The Collector’s Mint, there really isn’t a shortage of silver (in the minting industry), there is a shortage or at least a backlog of planchets. They get their planchets from the same place that the U.S. government gets their planchets to strike the Eagles. Once ordered, it takes 8 weeks for the planchets to arrive at the mint. However, they have found another planchet source that has a backlog of “only” 3 weeks. But this secondary source costs 50 cents more. So, the soonest you can get your coins is 3 weeks (+1-2 day), but you’ll have to pay more. Otherwise, 8 weeks (+1-2 days) is the normal wait at the normal prices. So, even striking your own coins with a private mint that has its own silver (no silver shortage there) is becoming difficult to do because “something” is tying up the planchet production…
On another topic, I recently got to talking to the local video store owner about this currency and he got real excited. I explained to him that the coins would be particularly useful to business owners because they would function as “tokens.” The genius of tokens is that they can only be used at certain places, so in order to spend them you must return to that particular establishment. However, as these coins are pure silver, they have intrinsic value to them, too, so even if you don’t spend them you can cash in the silver content or just utilize the silver however you want. So, a person who gives a twenty dollar bill and that needs 10 dollars back in change can be asked if they want a 10 dollar bill or a 1/2-oz of silver which can be used at that establishment as if it were worth 10 dollars. Some people would say, “yes,” and some would say, “no.”
For those who say, “yes,” they could do one of three things with it. 1) They could keep it. (Remember, silver bullion coins are hard to come by these days so being able to get one at your local video store is a good deal.) 2) If they ever want to cash in the silver they can take it to their local coin shop and get below spot price for it. 3) They could use it at the video store to rent movies as if it were 10 full dollars (or whatever the agreed upon value is.) Obviously, it is more valuable as money than as content silver, so the tendency would be to either use it as money or just to keep it as a store of value or as a collector’s item. However, whether it is spent or kept, the tendency would be for the video store to get more business because even if it is not spent into circulation, the word would quickly spread that the store was giving out pure silver coins as change and those who wanted such (or were seeking them but unable to find them) would gravitate to the store.
As banks will not take tokens, and as other businesses won’t either, the tokens would stay in the locality and be used at the businesses that voluntarily accepted them. Since bartering is legal, there are no laws against this.
Anyway, the man fully understood the concept (he’s been in business for a long time) and also recognized that a pure silver coin is better than just a brass token from Chuck E. Cheese. Like I said, he was giddy with excitement especially when he understood that the supply of such a bartering currency could not be deflated or inflated at the whim of government officials. Its monetary value above spot would be determined solely by the people themselves in their bartering exchanges with no government meddling.
Apparently, he is not the only one worried about the fate of the dollar, as there are more people calling for the creation of community currencies. See, for example, the following:
Ashland women propose local good-works currency
Carbondale should institute a community currency
Alternative Currencies Grow in Popularity
Etc.
Thanks for the links. The “Ashland women” article represents most what I would like to see. But all of them help me understand better what you are doing. More localized economies would definitely be healthier.
But I’m still not sold (pun intended) on the idea of precious metals. I’ve withheld giving all of my ideas on this. Aside from the environmental issues (I cringe in Ether 10:23 when they talk about piles of dirt everywhere, not a pleasant picture) I’ve already mentioned, there are other LDS scriptures I could mention. Even though I don’t want to, and I desperately want to get out of this conversation, I have felt compelled to share some of these.
For instance, why are precious metals valuable? Because a certain being took them and with gold and silver bought up armies and navies, false priests who oppress, and tyrants who reign with blood and horror on the earth. The Book of Enoch and the Secret Book of John both make it clear that it was fallen angels who taught man to value precious metals, and the consequences have been devastating.
I’ve already mentioned that I do not question the spiritual experiences of others. But maybe, LDSA, the Lord has put you on this path in order to start you thinking of even better currencies in the future. Ones that don’t involve metals that have even more blood on them than our current system. I also realize that we are under Satan’s dominion here (when he says he is the god of this world, I don’t think it is a vain boast), and coming out from under that economy isn’t done in a heartbeat. So maybe this is at least a start.
I realize I don’t know a lot of things. One thing I do know is that when asked if he had money by a certain being, Peter responds “We have sufficient for our needs.” This could be read in two ways. One, that he is saying he has enough money for his needs. Or he could be bypassing the money stuff altogether, and simply stating that he has what he needs (a cross reference to this would be Acts 3:6).
Anyway, that’s out of me. Yes, I am a religious nut-job. And here this is at the bottom of almost 60 other comments. And it’s long and boring besides, so hopefully it won’t get noticed.
Much like Abinidi’s disguise, I’m sure this anonymous name will be easy to see through, but I used it because I felt compelled to deal with much heavier (again, pun intended) topics than what I wanted to.
You need to research what characteristics sound money should have. Using money to effect trade is far better than barter. Here’s why: Let’s say I am a farmer and I raise goats. I produce goat meat and goat milk. You are pretty handy and you make furniture. I come to your shop and see a real nice table and chairs I want. So I offer to trade a combination of goat meat and milk to you for your table. But you hate goat meat and milk. So no trade can happen. I can’t get what I want and you can’t “sell” your furniture. Another factor in barter is the difficulty of delivering goods to be bartered with. Due to these types of problems money was invented.
What makes money sound money?
It should be scarce or rare.
It should be easily divisible.
It should be portable.
It should be durable.
It should be difficult or nearly impossible to counterfeit.
Throughout history and across almost all societies and civilizations guess what has been found to fit these characteristics the best? Gold and Silver.
“For instance, why are precious metals valuable? Because a certain being took them and with gold and silver bought up armies and navies, false priests who oppress, and tyrants who reign with blood and horror on the earth.”
Your reasoning is lacking in thought or historical basis.
Greg, I do appreciate your explanation of what is commonly thought to be necessary for a good currency. When I made my previous comment I was not unaware of the philosophy behind precious metal currency. It’s just that I’ve rejected it. That philosophy is the problem, not the solution. The “scarcity” doctrine is what gives rulers power over people, and this is an “anarchist” site, so we should be discussing ways to eliminate rulers, not empower them. The “scarcity” doctrine is the cause of a quite a number of problems, actually (http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-war-against-abundance-in-the-physical-world-1/2008/11/15), and we need something better (http://www.themormonworker.org/articles/issue5/the-beehive-and-the-steel-mill-rethinking-the-protestant-work-ethic.php). I realize there are reasons why gold and silver became currency. But I also know that we need to break out of the patterns of the past that keep leading us back to the same places, not just go back to some earlier point in the circle.
Again, I’m not criticizing LDSA’s efforts. A more localized economy of any kind would be an improvement. I’m just saying that to move forward in the long term we need to come up with new ideas, not fall back on old ones. I am impressed that LDSA, unlike many “return to hard currency” thinkers, seems to view his coins as a means to an end, rather than an end itself. I’m just trying to push the discussion further.
And the fact that gold and silver have been used again and again by tyrants to gain power over others has plenty of historical basis.
Mainly trying to see if I can get the links from my last comment to hyperlink:
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/the-war-against-abundance-in-the-physical-world-1/2008/11/15
http://www.themormonworker.org/articles/issue5/the-beehive-and-the-steel-mill-rethinking-the-protestant-work-ethic.php
Also, here is more on the Ashland women’s currency:
http://ournexchange.com/
One last thing: I wanted to point something missing from Greg’s list of aspects of a good currency: sustainability. This was not seen as important in past centuries (it should have been, though), but it is unavoidable now. Believing that global warming is just part of some communist conspiracy to get us to take the bus instead of driving isn’t going to solve the real problems we are facing.
And one last quote from the Ashland article (it’s your fault, LDSA for giving a link to it):
“The value is in a person’s energy output…The value of our dollar can fluctuate, but the value of our time can’t.”
Apparently, I’m not the only Mormon to have started a private currency. Brigham Young and the early Mormons did the same thing. I’ve got a numismatic book that has pictures of the gold coins struck. They used “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” as their hat tip in the Lord’s direction and also “a three-point Phrygian crown over the all-seeing eye of Jehovah.” It’s pretty funky. (A reproduction can be found here and here.)
Btw, The Collector’s Mint apparently will be striking 500 bartering coins for themselves, to be put on display up there in Tarzana and sold to anyone that wants to buy them. If you don’t want to order a full 100 coins, anyone can contact the mint and purchase some of the 500 coins and have them shipped to you. I do not know what they will charge for the coins or for shipping. Just contact the mint and ask them.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pg. 278:
“Situated as we are, with a flood of immigration constantly pouring in upon us, I consider that it is not only prudential, but absolutely necessary to protect the inhabitants of this city from being imposed upon by a spurious currency. Many of our eastern and old country fiends are altogether unacquainted with the situation of the banks in this region of country; and as they generally bring specie with them, they are perpetually in danger of being gulled by speculators. Besides there is so much uncertainty in the solvency of the best of banks, that I think it much safer to go upon the hard money system altogether. I have examined the Constitution upon this subject and find my doubts removed. The Constitution is not a law, but it empowers the people to make laws. For instance, the Constitution governs the land of Iowa, but it is not a law for the people. The Constitution tells us what shall not be a lawful tender. Article I, Section 10 declares that nothing else except gold and silver shall be lawful tender, this not saying that gold and silver shall be lawful tender. It only provides that the state may make a law to make gold and silver lawful tender. I know of no state in the Union that has passed such a law; and I am sure that Illinois has not. The legislature has ceded up to us the privilege of enacting such laws as are not inconsistent with the Constitution of the United States and the state of Illinois; and we stand in the same relation to the state as the state does to the Union. The clause referred to in the Constitution is for the legislature–it is not a law for the people. The different states, and even Congress itself, have passed many laws diametrically contrary to the Constitution of the United States.”
So Joseph Smith does agree with LDSA. Doesn’t necessarily mean I do.
Just came across this article and thought it fitting.
The latest International Forecaster article mentions the inevitability of bartering:
I just came across this tonight: The Numismatic News web site apparently posted on December 30, 2008, a new article tipping people off to these bartering coins, but they got their information a little wrong. They stated,
The truth of the matter is that Richard Nelson does not own the dies. I own the dies. Other than that, the article is correct. Click the following link to read their notice:
Dies created for bartering currency
Hello!
I am purchasing one of the coins from Richard. I am an avid aficionado of alternative currencies. They come and go, as you may know.
I assume that the group you are referring to in your Dec. 2 post is the AOCS. They have some interesting coins, too.
You mentioned something called a “Zcoin”. What is this?
Where do you live (city, state)? Feel free to send me an e-mail. I am not trying to discover your identity, it’s just that whenever possible, I classify the coins in my collection geographically.
Thanks! Erik
Oh…I see both my postings on this page now. So sorry! Please do delete the redundant one. I am so embarassed!!
[Note from Admin: Fixed.]
Please join me and 29 other Currency officers in the AOCS approved currency, web site is http://www.Opencurrency.com or http://www.freelakotabank.com .
The truth is setting you free to do as you and your God see fit.
So do as you will and with His will you shall over come.
Thanks for promoting silver as the weapon of war against the FED reserve. and Silver and gold will win, with the help of the law of large numbers, you have just been counted in the number of the law of large numbers.
May many blessings become yours,
Marcus
Hello again!
I did some more research, and found a great summary — written by LDS Anarchist — of the Zcoin project: http://eozthinktank.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=currencybb&action=display&thread=59
So that pretty much answers my first question. But here is a new one, to replace it: were any Zcoins actually minted? Too bad their Web-site has been deleted.
Thanks again! Erik
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I suspect that there weren’t any Zcoins struck. That’s probably why they stopped it.
Thanks!
I was indeed able to access the Zcoin web-site (but the “catalog” section was unavailable, so no images were viewable) at the Internet Archive site. The e-mail address listed there (fmc@zcoins.net) no longer works. I ws hoping you had a way of getting in touch with the person who was doing that project, so that I could find out for sure if any coins were actually made. Thanks again.
Erik, I think you know more about it than I do.
Another comment.
http://i1.democracynow.org/2009/4/9/north_carolina_town_prints_own_currency
Very interesting post and information. We will feature you in our monthly magazine for community currency. There are several other groups working towards the same goal of alternative silver barter and community currency. Some see it as a 100% alternative for today’s paper dollar, others see it as you do, money that will survive a paper currency collapse and should be used at some future point, still others see it filling in the cracks where paper money and credit can’t reach. I will email you now with an offer.
This is my community currency backed by silver, due out later this year:
http://www.moneyart.biz/cc-news.html
Mark Herpel
editor@ccmag.net
Skype IM ‘digitalcurrency’
Mark,
Wow, featured on a magazine! That’s a first. You don’t have my email address, so I will email you and then you can email me back. Thanks for the interest and visit. I’ll check out your magazine now.
I like how the coins have turned out, they’re very pretty. I’d be tempted to buy one just because I love the scripture you printed on it, “A just weight and balance are the LORD’s.” I don’t like our current fiat currency and think we’d be much better off with a more honest banking system that’s not reliant on debt.
I don’t feel comfortable with the circle-A symbol on the coin. The circle-A is an old cabalistic or occult symbol for rebellion and disorder and as the scripture goes, “Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion” (D&C 132:8) Which leads to my next gripe… (please bear with me!)
It seems to me that you are treading the dangerous waters of making prophecies or revelations known to others which have been delivered to you by the Spirit. I believe in the gifts of prophecy and revelation strongly, but in my experience the Holy Ghost does not give us prophecy to deliver to other people unless they’re in our stewardship. My Mom once had a revelation that someone was going to get run over very soon. She mistakingly thought it was someone in the neighborhood and told everybody to beware. She had my father bless the whole family before going out of town and sure enough, that same week my little brother was run over. I watched it happen – he was 2 at the time and I was 4 and the front wheel of a pickup truck went right over his back and shoulder. He was taken to the hospital and they couldn’t find a scratch on him and released him the same day. He came back home and because I was a stupid kid at the time I asked him where he was because he missed the cool ambulances, which he loved to watch because of the lights/sirens. Anyway, the man who ran him over was inactive until that event, but became very active after that miracle. My mom later realized that it was naive of her to think somebody in the neighborhood would get run over because revelation to her could only be for her or her stewardship – her family! That’s the natural order of things as taught by the Prophets. I have an uncomfortable feeling here that you’re moving into the realm of giving prophecies to others. There are other spirits that can inspire and don’t come from the Lord, it’s hard to tell the difference at times – believe me I know. You may be genuine and I may be the fool, but I and my wife have a bad feeling about the advice given out here and wanted to let you know our feelings. I say things things in love and sincerety. Ryan L.
Ryan, I appreciate the advice and concern. Hmm… I’m not sure how to respond to this…
Okay, let me tell you of a recent prophetic experience. One happened nearly two weeks ago. I had a dream in which there was a flood (I won’t go into all of the details) and myself, my wife, my youngest child and a good, close friend of mine were contemplating how to escape with our lives. It seemed pretty hopeless, yet we made preparations to try to escape. In the dream I was tired and took a nap. After waking up (in the dream) I discovered the flood was now around us and my close friend, who is usually very positive and active, was now motionless, silent and depressed, as he contemplated his own mortality. I tried to cheer him up, but he was not responsive. It was strange seeing everyone with death on their minds. I then woke up.
The dream was startling and my first thought was, “Was this inspired of the Holy Ghost?” I had the feeling that something ominous was coming. After awhile, I was finally able to go back to sleep. Then, I had a SECOND dream, again about impending death (I don’t remember the second dream.) I woke up from the second dream and decided to check the news reports in the morning to see if there was anything about a flood or drowning. However, I found nothing.
But the next day I discovered that the mother of another good, close friend of mine had passed away, about 24 hours after my double dreams. Cause of death? Her lungs filled up with fluid. In other words, she drowned.
Now, I wonder, do I have stewardship over my friend’s mother?
I suppose this would make a good topic for an individual post, and I don’t have time to do it justice in this comment, but I’ll just give you some quick thoughts that you might consider. Could it be that the spirit of prophecy is not confined to a specific family tree? Could it be that since we are all children of God, and thus all brothers and sisters, that it is as proper for any man or woman to prophesy concerning any other man or woman as it to prophesy about their immediate blood family? Could it be that this is the reason why there have been men and women who could “prophesy all things”? Prophesying all things would undoubtedly mean prophesying beyond the immediate blood family. Could it be that the gifts of the Spirit were never meant to be narrowly confined according to our limited understanding of propriety, which is why they are for both members and non-members alike? (Oh the horror! Imagine a non-baptized woman prophesying or speaking in tongues! It must be from the devil!) 😉
If prophecy must be spoken within narrow confines only for it to have the stamp of approval of God (stewardship), then surely none of the prophets sent by the Lord who were outside of the church leadership, for example, good ol’ Lehi, must have been authorized servants. Again, I don’t have time to really respond to this in the depth it needs, but you might want to consider that the gifts of the Spirit (including the gift to prophesy) do not have the same limitations or established protocols as the priesthood of God, and that this was designed by God this way for a very good reason.
(I’m betting that this comment of mine is going to open up a whole new can of worms on this site…)
Anyway, thanks for the visit, Ryan, and I’m glad you liked the coins. (Oh, one last thing: the circle-A stands for Anarchy is Order.)
LDS,
I think it might be wise to have a separate section to speak on this subject. For some reason, it is always a hot topic. The main reason is that no one wants to feel duped that they believed someone or some idea that wasn’t true. It’s the embarrassment that can come that really makes people want to know the boundaries God has set forth in receiving revelation. Plus, I think the terms need to be defined, because revelation and prophecy are different, even though we use them interchangeably a lot in the church.
JL said:
“The main reason is that no one wants to feel duped that they believed someone or some idea that wasn’t true. It’s the embarrassment that can come that really makes people want to know the boundaries God has set forth in receiving revelation.”
Wow that is so true. So true on so many levels. There have been many times when I thought I was searching for the truth, only to realize I was trying to search for that which wouldn’t make me look like an easily duped lemming. I didn’t want to be embarrassed. The focus was still on what others would think about me, not on the truth.
So whats up with that Agnostic Symbol on the coin?
It would be nice to have some coins in the 1/2oz, but that symbol thing is just a little to weired for me.
I like the symbol and the quote. I think it’s fantastic and we feature it every month in our magazine. His idea and the 1/2 size has caught on. Other groups are beginning to mint similar sized ‘tokens’ for barter. This movement is great and very inspiring. Here is a another of the most recent ‘buy local’ barter token. http://twitpic.com/eqfoy
Mark
[…] in silver to a meeting, allow them to order some at the meeting (obviously I recommend using the Silver Bartering Currency, but any bullion silver will […]
I just now updated the above post by mentioning that it is possible to purchase these coins directly from the mint in rolls of 25 coins. So, one roll of 25 coins is now the minimum order. There is no more need to strike 100 or more coins. I’ve actually known about this for some time (like over a year), but was too lazy to put this information up. I figured that anyone who had interest in the coins would find it out by calling the mint. Then, I forgot all about it until Rock posted a comment on the Bartering Currency Pictures post. So, I’ve now updated both these posts to reflect this change.
You really had some forsight about silver LDS Anarchist. I wish I would have come to your blog at the time this was written. I did read this article about a year after it was written, and did buy some silver. As of today silver is $40 an oz.!
Well there´s a clear cut doc on the whole situation of money/currencies, and although it´s quite impartial, it´s really better than just loosed thoughts.
So if you really think you have the way out, do as this folks and spread the word as it´s supposed to be spread, and I´ll pamphlet it if it´s right.
PS: LDS Anarchist You did inspire me with you example.
I just read this: Next time Mormons pay tithing, they may notice something new.
The following wording in particular caught my attention:
“Though reasonable efforts will be made globally to use donations as designated,” it now reads on the bottom of the form, “all donations become the church’s property and will be used at the church’s sole discretion to further the church’s overall mission.”
May I once again encourage everyone who pays tithing, who is concerned with how the Church spends their money, to pay in silver, any silver, or in gold. Do so anonymously.
I have been tempted, of late, to create a 1/100th ounce silver coin, based on the above design, specifically for people to pay tithing, but I do not know that there would be enough interest in it to sustain the investment in the dies. A 1/100th ounce silver coin would cost around $400 for 100 coins. That is likely within the tithing budget of many LDS couples. (Because silver has gone up in price so much, the 1/2-oz coin is too expensive to purchase 100 coins. You’d need around $2000 for 100 coins.)
The 1/100th oz coin would be specifically for tithing for two reasons: #1, because it will be within the tithing budget of many people and, #2, because it would deal a financial blow to the corporate Church. This is because although you would pay around $4 per coin, the silver content in the coin would only be worth 30+ cents. So, although you would have fulfilled the law of tithing, thus keeping your good standing before the Lord, you would have simultaneously reduced the tithing revenue of the corporate church. How’s this for a campaign?:
Reduce the tithing revenue of the corporate Church by paying your tithing in silver!
(Using the 1/2-oz coin or any other silver coin won’t reduce the tithing revenue much, since the price of the coin so closely matches the value of the silver content.)
If anyone is interested in paying their tithing with such a 1/100th ounce coin, let me know via Wireclub and I will consider making the dies. If enough people decide to make the switch to silver for tithing payment, I will have to create the dies.
One last thing: for those who are currently paying tithing in silver or gold, assuming there is anyone out there doing that, I recommend that you only pay tithing in silver, not fast offerings. Pay your fast offerings in U.S. currency, since that goes to the poor in your ward, and they need all the value they can get.
If anyone checks out BRIGHAM – THE BUILDER & THE BUTCHER PT.2 , they may be apprised of how their tithing slips will look in the future.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21040214
In a comment above, on October 2, 2012, I wrote the following:
“I have been tempted, of late…”
So, that was about a year and a half ago that I had that “temptation.” No one ended up contacting me about it and I let it drop.
However in the last few weeks I’ve again got the feeling about making a “tithing coin” of a small denomination, so I contacted the mint to get the details concerning making a 1/100-oz coin. That’s when I found out that it can’t be done. That is, not for a 1/100th of an ounce coin. But it can be done for a 1/20th-oz coin.
It turns out that the mold to the original dies for the 1/2-oz coin, which was made in the latter quarter of 2008, is still good, and can be used still to make all the other sizes, so that everything matches up perfectly.
It also turns out that there may be some potential distributors who would be willing to invest in purchasing the coins in bulk (100 or more pieces), so that they can sell them to the public individually.
I’ve run the numbers and it looks like if you buy 100 or more pieces, it’ll cost (in total) about $4.25 a coin. So, a distributor would invest around $425. If the distributor turns around and sells them for $5.25 a piece, they get a small profit and people have themselves a tithing coin, which potentially could fund the creation of all the dies of the entire currency, in both gold and silver and in both all conditions and in all languages.
The reason why it could fund everything is that tithing is ten percent and Mormons typically pay it every time they get a paycheck, which could be every two weeks, etc. That is a very steady source of income which, to a potential distributor, reduces the risk of investing in the tithing coin considerably. After selling their 100 coin investment 5 times, they would have covered their investment money completely, so that there would be no more risk involved, whatsoever.
In the case of a tithe-payer, let’s say he had a minimum wage job and he earned $320 a week, or $640 every two weeks, contributing $64 to tithing every paycheck. If he sent that money instead to the distributor, he could purchase 12 of these 1/20-oz coins (at $5.25 a piece) and then he could give those coins to the church as tithing. As this is tithing, this routine would be repeated every couple of weeks for as long as he is employed. Multiply that by ten people, all earning minimum wage, and the distributor would sell his entire supply of coins every time within a two-week period. If the tithe-payer is not a minimum wage earner, but makes a lot more money, then the stash gets bought up that much more quickly, allowing die creation to proceed at a much faster rate.
Working after this fashion takes away the need for anyone (other than the distributor) to fork over enough money to purchase 100 coins. Any tithe-payer would be able to convert money into silver for as little as $5 and some change. If enough people started doing this, the church would begin to be starved and the prophecies concerning paying tithing in silver, would start to be fulfilled. Also, the bartering currency would take off in a big way.
I am concerned with posts such as Rock’s Are We Paying Too Much Tithing and his Bare Necessities: How To Calculate What You Owe In Tithing or the multitude of blog posts found elsewhere concerning the church’s investments in malls and real estate, etc. For example, see 246: MORMONOPOLY: BUILDING “ZION” ONE PROPERTY AT A TIME. My concern is that people may end up not paying tithing, at all, thus violating their covenants. My hope is that people will continue to pay their tithing, to the church as they are supposed to, but if they are concerned about all these church expenditures, then starve the church of money while still contributing silver, as I explained in the quote above. It may be that this reasoning will not be good enough for many latter-day saints who are upset at these things, but perhaps some will accept it.
Anyway, if anyone wants this to happen and wants to pay their tithing in these silver coins, leave me a message below and I’ll contact you by email. If one says, “I can buy 10 coins every two weeks” and another says, “I can buy 15 coins on the 1st and the 15th of every month” and so on and so forth and it becomes obvious that a distributor could easily recoup his investment, it should be quite easy to get a distributor. And if you yourself want to be a distributor, then leave a note and I’ll email you, too.
Please keep in mind that the dies are not yet made for the 1/20th ounce coin. This is just a preliminary “blood pressure” check, to see if the time is right for the introduction of a tithing coin…
I may have to make the above comment a published post since it doesn’t look like anyone noticed it… Besides, this blog has been a bit dead lately. Maybe it’s time to start its motor again…
Log wrote the following objection to the Bartering Currency on Rock’s recent blog post, and I wrote out a response to be put there, but as it contains new information, I’m going to put it here instead. So, here is what Log wrote:
So, here is the response that I wrote:
So, to clarify, that would be “yes,” you make a profit, and “no answer” as to how this brings about the foundation of Zion.
Hey! I thought you were banned! So, it appears that you really did just keep missing the Post Comment button…Lol.
Now, Log, I know you cite a lot of scriptures, which I really do appreciate, for your knowledge of scriptures is quite admirable, but you really can’t see how this helps bring about the fulfillment of the prophecies? How it helps the cause of Zion? I have no time to unfold this to you, so just ask God to confirm the truth of this work to you, and He will do so, if you are capable of receiving revelation.
Anarchist,
It’s none of my business whether you are doing as God told you to or not. Of myself, I do not see how this fulfills prophecies nor establishes Zion – and when I use that word, I mean it literally. To me, it seems obvious that the exercise of moneychanging solely benefits the moneychangers – you and whoever ends up buying the silver for dollars from the Church.
What I find interesting is that the big, bad corporate Church gets dinged for doing in all respects what you are yourself doing – but they dingers do not seem to see the parallel.
I imagine if one could ask the Church why they do what they do with the tithes, they’d give much the same answer, substantially, as you have.
Log, my reading of the section called “My current understanding” indicates to me that LDSA does not know *exactly* how this currency will help in the cause of Zion. Yet he specified that *maybe* it will somehow frustrate the works of the secret combination.
I was about to write that one must receive a confirmation from the Lord before one participates in this currency when I realized that almost everyone now participates in the fiat currency without ever receiving a confirmation.
jackdale76,
That “My current understanding” section is dated to 2008 (six years ago). My current understanding is much more clear than it was then, and I know a whole lot more about this currency than I did then, both why it is the way it is (re: its design), and also what kind of prophecies it will fulfill. For example, on November 12 of this year (2014), I wrote the following to Rock in an email:
I never did put that up on this blog, so I guess now is the time that it goes up, since you’ve brought the memory of it back into my mind.
There are many things I could explain about this currency, and the prophecies that surround it, and also I could explain the above comment of mine, concerning a partial restoration of the law of consecration and stewardship of properties. I have already, on this blog, delved into the topic of stewardship (see The nature of authority: the Lord’s stewardship law), but I never got into the details of the law of consecration and stewardship of properties. I guess I just figured that everyone already knows this stuff, or ought to know this stuff since it is quite plainly written in the scriptures, and left it at that. I also thought people understood the parable of the talents, but given the recent post of Rock’s, and the many comments that were on that post of his, and also Log’s apparent confusion regarding how the Bartering Currency will fulfill prophecy, I am once again faced with the realization that I have taken for granted that others see things as I see things. I did this recently with the brides of Satan post, thinking that surely everyone understood that Christ was the alpha male, since it is written into our very scriptures, and so surely everyone understood and knew about the doctrine of the Alpha, and I just focused then, on talking about Satan as an alpha, and what resulted? Widespread confusion and disbelief over my words, for the foundation that I had, (which I assumed everyone else had, and so skipped over that part to talk about the more elevated heights and topics,) was not there as I assumed, creating a mess of confusion.
The problem, I think, is that something different has been happening, this year in particular, with me. Whereas historically in my life, the spirit of prophecy and revelation has manifested from time to time, in intense bursts of knowledge and understanding, followed by long periods of no revelations, of late (meaning the past year or so), my ability to understand things prophetically (by that spirit) is no longer sporadic, but almost constant and certainly daily. When I look at the scriptures now, I find myself reading them prophetically, meaning that as I read them they become unfolded before my very eyes. Joseph Smith wrote of his baptism:
In like manner, the scriptures, many passages of which were not entirely clear to me, are now very much clearer to me, and I find myself speaking prophecies left and right to those around me, which unnerves the unbelievers and causes those that believe to rejoice. So, my point is that my understanding of many things has deepened so much, that I find it hard to take the time to write what is so clear to me now, and unfold it all to those of this blog. I’d have to go and expound even the basics, giving the deeper understanding that I currently have, so that others can behold this stuff, as I do.
In person I could do it easily, if there were time, but to write it all down and put it on a blog, it seems so time consuming, and I just don’t have the time right now. So, it is easier to just let people believe what they will believe, and, in the case of the Bartering Currency, for those who think that this is just another form of money-changing, and not really a divinely inspired work, to just encourage them to ask God about it. They may still not understand its prophetic future, how it will accomplish the things I have prophesied that it will do, but at least they can put their trust in God and their mind at rest that there is nothing devilish or man-made about it.
Lol. Asking God is for those who need to have a witness that this has divine approval before they take one step forward in faith and begin using the currency. For all others, let them view it as a secular thing, if they want.
I recently composed an article for Rock, that I sent to him in an email, which explains why latter-day saints ought to pay their tithing in the Bartering Currency. Anyone who wants to read that can just send me an email request and I’ll email it to you. Send your request to
ldsa@email.com
From time to time, since writing the email mentioned above, I have added more information to the document. I mention this here because I have, yet again, added more words to it, but I think that I ought to also put them down here, on this blog. So, this is what I added, (with the first part repeated from above, but expanded out):
A partial restoration of the law of consecration and stewardship of properties
The law of consecration and stewardship of properties, which was given chiefly to the leading elders of the church, was short-lived in this dispensation and subsequently replaced by the law of tithing, which was given to the entire church.
It’s been, what, more than a century? since the last stewardship was appointed by the Lord through His church bishop to any latter-day saint. The stewardship of properties was given for the support of the man and his family, with the expectation that it would generate a surplus or profit, which surplus or profit would then be consecrated back to the bishop, as a residue to be used for the poor and needy and for other purposes.
Good, wise, faithful stewards were expected to improve upon their stewardship,
according to the parable of the talents,
thus becoming profitable servants. Even those who were made stewards over the revelations and scriptures were expected to produce a profit:
See also versse 9-13:
There is also this scripture:
The Bartering Currency was given to me shortly after I had begun paying tithing correctly, after I had donated (consecrated) my entire surplus to the Lord and begun paying 1/10 of my annual interest. It was given to me as a stewardship, even as a partial restoration of the law of consecration and stewardship of properties, and it came only after I had consecrated my property and prayed fervently for a stewardship. As the church refuses to appoint, or no longer appoints, any stewardship, the only way the Lord could answer my prayers–for I prayed in faith, believing I would receive, nothing doubting–was to appoint me a stewardship Himself, through the manifestations of His Holy Spirit. I am, therefore, the steward over the Bartering Currency, which was appointed to me by God, and as it is my stewardship, it is my responsibility to see that it produces abundantly. If there is no surplus, profit, gain or benefit generated by this currency, from which to consecrate to the bishop for the poor and the needy, then I would have failed in my stewardship and am an unwise and unfaithful steward and an unprofitable servant
Nevertheless, I am assured, according to the spirit of prophecy, that this particular stewardship, which is the property of the Lord, per D&C 104:56,
will be highly successful, even to exceed the expectations of the most optimistic of persons (me).
Render unto God the things which be God’s
As I have been made a steward over the Bartering Currency, it, then, belongs to the Lord. Additionally, it was given by manifestations of the Holy Ghost, therefore, it is God’s currency in two senses. So, when we read the following,
the application of this scripture is that when we render to God, (by rendering to God’s church), we are to render what is God’s to God’s church. Thus, the avails of stewardship properties, which are God’s properties, are to be rendered to God’s church, to His bishop, as consecrations and donations. But this is rendering in kind. There is also rendering in money, spoken of in the revelations:
And what money is to be used? Certainly not Caesar’s money, for that is to be rendered to Caesar, not to God.
The answer, then, is the Bartering Currency.
This shows that the Lord brought forth the Bartering Currency, first, as a stewardship, that the latter-day saints might more perfectly fulfill the law of consecration and stewardship of properties, when they begin again to live that law, that they might render “unto God,” both in properties and in money, “the things which be God’s.” Nevertheless, there is no need to wait for the full restoration of that law, for all latter-day saints ought to begin rendering Bartering Currency unto God as their tithing donation. Doing this will, in fact, begin to initiate the full restoration of the law of consecration and stewardship of properties.