I’ve changed my mind


I used to think that the latter-day saints could self-correct and bring the current church practices back into conformity to the revelations of Joseph, and to that end I advocated, among other things, the use of the law of common consent to put a stop to practices that went contrary to the scriptures.  (See, for example, Is our procedure for sustaining a rubber stamp?)  But over the years of this blog’s existence it has become apparent to me that the latter-day saints are incapable of self-correcting.  This used to cause me consternation, but I’m not worried about it anymore.  And neither should anybody else be.  There is going to be a major correction, but it won’t come from the body of the saints doing it of their own volition under inspiration of the Holy Ghost.  The saints need to be convinced to self-correct, but they aren’t convinced.  I certainly haven’t been able to convince anyone, or at least, not enough people, to make any difference.  But also, the leadership needs to be convinced that they need to self-correct, and once again, they aren’t convinced.

So, although I still recommend that everyone should conform their lives, as best they can, to the revelations of Joseph Smith, within the context of the current church practices, I no longer believe that there will be enough people doing that to alter the church course and bring it back into conformity to the revelations.  Therefore, here is my recommendation: don’t go against the keys.  If whatever you are doing is brought into question by the authorities, submit to those keys.  If they say, “Either you wear purple socks or you are out of here,” then by all means, wear purple socks!  Go to the Lord in prayer and say, “Well, this doesn’t exactly accord with Your written word in the revelations, but they have the keys which You gave them, so I will submit to those keys.”

Perhaps you will say of me, “That’s kind of a cop-out, don’t you think?”  Not really, though.  You see, I’ve got a new view of things, of how things are going to go down, or how the church correction is going to be effected.  Those who say, “I’m going to conform to the revelations as I see fit and understand them, these leaders be damned!” are not being led by the Holy Ghost.  But the Holy Ghost is most definitely leading me.  And if you don’t believe me, then ask God, “Is the guy who calls himself LDS Anarchist led by the Holy Ghost?” And if you are capable of receiving revelation, God will manifest to you that I am.  So, anyone, from any quarter, that says the LDS leadership has apostatized and their keys are null and void is either mistaken or telling an outright lie.  The keys are here.  The church is still true.  We, the LDS church, have the only baptism of John found anywhere on the earth, John having appeared and conferred this authority upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, and spake unto him, saying,

Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?

And he answered and said unto them,

I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:

The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

And they reasoned with themselves, saying,

If we shall say,

From heaven;

he will say,

Why then believed ye him not?

But and if we say,

Of men;

all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.

And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.  And Jesus said unto them,

Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. (Luke 20:1-8)

And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, and say unto him,

By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?

And Jesus answered and said unto them,

I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.

The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

answer me.

And they reasoned with themselves, saying,

If we shall say,

From heaven;

he will say,

Why then did ye not believe him?

But if we shall say,

Of men;

they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.  And they answered and said unto Jesus,

We cannot tell.

And Jesus answering saith unto them,

Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things. (Mark 11:27-33)

Also, there is the revelation (D&C 22) Joseph Smith received concerning non-church baptisms, so those who say a non church-authorized baptism is good enough to satisfy the requirements of the gospel are lying through their teeth, or deceived by the devil, or just misunderstanding the scriptures.  Whatever the case, they are in error and in need of correction.

Now, although the church practices do not fully conform to the revelations of Joseph Smith, that is not enough reason to warrant abandoning the ship or making claims of the leadership or membership apostatizing.  And, in fact, it turns out that no one is authorized to correct the leadership.  (See “Keep your mouth shut and hold your tongue!”  (Leave the leadership alone.).)

Again, let me be perfectly clear: 1) Anyone that claims the current LDS church is no longer God’s church is not inspired of the Holy Ghost.  Period.  This is still, indeed, God’s church.  2) Anyone that claims that the LDS church ceased being God’s church long ago, during Joseph Smith’s life, or right after he died, is not inspired of the Holy Ghost.  3) Anyone that claims that church ordinances performed without church authorization are binding as ordinances of salvation, is not inspired of the Holy Ghost.  4) Anyone that claims that the LDS church leadership no longer hold the keys, is not inspired of the Holy Ghost.  5) Anyone that claims that the LDS church’s departure from the precise conformity to Joseph Smith’s revelations nullifies their priesthood and church keys, is not inspired of the Holy Ghost.  6) Anyone advocating leaving the LDS church, or advocating that people not join this church, are not inspired of the Holy Ghost.  7) Anyone advocating that people who have left the LDS church are better off apart from it, or that they ought to stay where they are and not come back in and submit to the keys, is not inspired of the Holy Ghost.

Here is what the Holy Ghost will inspire a saint to do: conform to the revelations of Joseph Smith with exactness, but if the leadership of the church conflict with that conformity, then the Holy Ghost will inspire that person to conform to the keys.

The reason why the Holy Ghost operates after this fashion, or will operate after this fashion, is because the Lord already has the Josephite prepared to make the correction.  He will and must convince the world, right?  And how will he convince?  Through the manifestations of the Holy Ghost, working mighty miracles.  The leadership is going to be convinced.  The church is going to be convinced.  The whole world will be convinced.  And the correction will be made seemingly over-night.  It will be the now convinced LDS leadership telling the people, “Yesterday that was how we did it, but today we have received new divine instructions, and we are now doing it by the book, even by the revelations of Joseph, with exactness.”  And the church will correct in an instant.

But not even the Josephite is authorized, or empowered, to make the correction now.  While in his weakness, he doesn’t and can’t convince anybody.  It’s just his word without any divine manifestations of heavenly approval in attendance, which word is just as good as anybody else’s.  So, for all intents and purposes, the weak Josephite is just like any other member of the church, completely useless to make any church corrections.

That being true, that the Josephite is powerless at this present time to correct the church, why in the world would anyone else think they could do it?

Once again, I want to be perfectly clear, so I’ll give more details: the Lord’s authorized servant, the Josephite, who will be the one to actually make the correction, 1) will be a man already in this church, but not in the LDS church leadership; 2) will not be someone who has been kicked out of the church; 3) will say the church or priesthood keys are still in and with the church; 4) will not advocate non church-authorized baptism or other ordinances as ordinances of salvation; 5) will not be against the current church leadership, at any point; and 6) will convince the church leadership (and entire church) by working mighty signs and miracles such as Moses did when he began his ministry, going to the elders of Israel to perform signs, so that they knew that the time had come for a course alteration (see Exodus 4.)  And then the church will correct.

Now, what happens after that, I do not know, for there is still the prophecy I received about the earthquake and the break-up of the church, which prophecy will come to pass, but how and when and in what order all these things will play out, I haven’t a clue.  And there are a whole mess of other things I’ve received concerning the future and the Josephite, which have me completely baffled as to how they will play out, but all this stuff is real, so it will happen when it happens, and that’s good enough for me.  Let it suffice that I am saying that I have prophesied a great many things, but none of them match the “church as currently organized has apostatized” scenario.  My point is this: I know my prophecies are real, so if you are following a man or woman who claims to be a prophet and inspired of God, and they are going against what I have prophesied or received in revelation, ditch ’em quick.  Don’t follow that person.  They are in error and you are in error if you believe them.  And if you don’t believe me, then ask God about my prophecies.  It doesn’t matter that you don’t know all of what I have prophesied.  Ask God and He will tell you that my prophecies are true.  And when He does, repent and come back in to the fold, and conform as I stated above, and wait patiently upon the Lord until He sends the Josephite to make the correction.

I swear I think I’m probably speaking to the wall when I write these words—for my experience is that people just refuse to ask God about me and my revelations and prophecies.  But those who do, get answers only in the affirmative (confirmations of their truth.)  So, I will try once again, and say that the Lord will not send any mere prophet to correct the church.  What we are looking and waiting for is a seer, not a prophet.  And he won’t be a mere seer, he will be a miracle-working seer, even the greatest miracle worker of all time.  So cast all these wannabe phonies aside.  There will be no church correction until this seer shows up fully empowered.

One last thing: those who are no longer members of this church, many of whom have good intentions and truly believe what they believe, who have been “excommunicated” not by the (now defunct) elder’s court, but by the high council, although this has been done in error, in contradiction to the revelations, nevertheless, these people, if they turn around and criticize and correct and ridicule (revile), etc., they are not inspired of the Holy Ghost.  As I see it, there is only one impediment found in the church questions, and that is the one dealing with the claim that they are seers.  But even there, they do have a seer stone (although they don’t know how to use it.)  But all other questions, concerning keys and beliefs and the revelations of Joseph and so forth, are reasonable to expect of a person who wants back in.  So, if these corrections from the leadership are not accepted, that ain’t the leadership’s fault.  But if the excommunicant believes the keys are here, and believes the revelations and the doctrine, and submits to the keys, but cannot accept that the leadership are seers, and the leadership won’t let them in for that single reason alone, then that ain’t that man’s fault, that comes upon the leadership’s head.  And the Josephite will correct that.

But from my vantage point, that is not what is going on.  These people who get “excommunicated” express views of unbelief on various important points, and no longer accept the keys.  My understanding (which may be entirely wrong) is that the leadership really isn’t so much concerned with the titles, “prophet, seer and revelator,” as they are with the assertion that they have the keys.  I can only suppose that if someone says, “I fully believe that the leaders have the keys, and I will submit to them, and I believe that they have the seer stone, and that they are capable of receiving prophecies and revelations for their respective callings,” I can only assume that if those exact words were said, that the leadership would let them back in.  But if a person says this, repenting and humbly accepting whatever correction is given to them, and the leadership still refuses to let them in, then that’s a horse of a different color.  But I don’t think that is what is happening, at all.  But even if that does happen, the saint should just continue to meet with the saints and wait for the correction to come via the Josephite.  He or she should not go on a mission to correct the leadership publicly.

Okay, enough of this pointless rant.  I usually only like to put up posts that contain new information, and this post doesn’t seem to have anything new (to me, at least), but I feel like it needed to be said anyway.

Complete List of Articles authored by LDS Anarchist

Advertisements

21 Comments

  1. Great post! Very similar to my own thoughts, lately. I need to study more sbout the Josephite.

  2. Having no idea what has provoked your voicing this commentary at this time, first let me say that I agree with your freedom to voice what you have, while I cannot personally agree with everything you have said.
    After Abinadi testified and chastised King Noah’s court he )as prophet – a prophet from outside the “church” authorized leadership.
    Abinadi said, “(Mosiah 12:25) Are you priests, and pretend to teach this people, and to understand the spirit of prophesying, ….
    In the next chapter Abinadi restates the Law of Moses will not save the people, he testified of Christ and the atonement.
    Chapter 16 reminds us ” those who are carnal (lacking the priesthood worthy behaviors-amid other sins) remain as though there was no redemption”.
    Alma’s awakening to repentance and righteousness appears in Chpt 17, and Alma pays the ultimate price for his words, promising his determined death by fire will be inflicted eventually upon his church leadership, court murderers.
    Alma flees (is expelled) from Noah’s court/association – he does not stay and try to influence his brethren for good, he does not keep quiet. He also does not preach against the church leadership, he simply walks away and preaches the gospel he has been taught by Abinadi. BUT he goes one step further. He acknowledges to himself and to God that while he’s been considered an authorized priesthood leader, he knows his authorization to function from established authority (keys) is not valid, but he wants to be baptized back into worthiness and he wants to see those who also believe Abinadi’s words (as taught by Alma) have the same privilege of authentic baptism.
    Alma outlines the principles of anyone being worthy of the baptism which reflects God’s authority in the ordinance…. (Mosiah 18:7 onward) Repentance, redemption, faith on the Lord, bear each other’s burdens, be a light, mourn with those who mourn, comfort the needy, stand as a witness of God, …
    The converts clapped their hands and exclaimed their desire to be part of such a community of saints.
    Alma and Helam then stood in the water.
    “O Lord, pour out thy spirit upon thy servant that he may do this work with holiness of heart.” The spirit of the Lord came upon him (vs 13) “Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him ….; and may spirit is f the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ… Vs 14 gives us the subsequent outcome of this humble, powerful exercise of Faith and rededication for Alma and Helam. It sounds quite like the outcome when Jiseph and Oliver were baptized.
    Vs 16…. And after this manner he did baptize everyone that went forth….
    Vs 17… And they were called the Church of God or the Church of Christ. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added tobhis church.
    Noah’s father, Zeniff was a better leader than ” wicked” Noah. Noah was so unrighteous he appointed his own priests to take leadership roles and they, as a team overtaxed the saints (people) taught them unrighteousness and led them through the vanity and flattery technique to greater, PRIDE, LAZINESS, IDOLATRY, ETC.
    We can study the Scriptures and learn “the rest of the story” but I the important observations from my position include: don’t look for trouble but sitting silently watching the saints be led to their destruction is not the only recourse.
    The last days servant will do the things you’ve cited, save he will NOT convert the church leaders, nor the majority of LDS members to “follow Christ”.
    His testimony, his spirit, his authority (keys) will come from a truly authorized source, not from a current LDS ordination.
    He will bring more Scriptures, but few saints and fewer leaders will be grateful or invested in God’s words in more abundance. They don’t hold Scriptures Joseph provided and those Moses provided nor those given us from the New Testament apostles as the foundation for their lives. They don’t even know the ” good ship Zion” is sinking.
    I have referred to Joseph’s last dream about his Kirtland farmstead. He makes it very clear the “church” is in a total state of disrepair. He says he doesn’t want to be affiliated with it and will leave it to our current leaders to fight over.
    I hold a recommend currently but have only used it to do initiatory work in the past year. Even that I ceased months ago.
    I trust the sisters worthiness to perform ordinances is authentic (in as much as it can be).
    I don’t believe keys are intact amid our leaders, but I believe the “servant” will provide us authorized ordinances through his team of fellow servants. I also know God has hidden priesthood holders to offer us a renewal of authorized covenants when the time is right.
    I won’t renew my recommend when it expires, but only because I do NOT sustain the brethren as “prophets, seers and revelators” because they are not. I can sustain them as the presidency and corporate board of directors for the church, the recent changes to the tithing slip verifies that is their true role.
    I hope your spunk returns before long but if you have to take a sabbatical and withdraw from your anarchist voice for a season, that is okay…BUT please don’t recommend we play a role in Noah’s court, we’d perhaps be wiser to see how we might play a Latter-Day Alma role.

  3. Said Alma was killed, meant Abinadi.

  4. Any person(s) or any church, who asks me to make a vocal declaration of a man in order to enter the waters of baptism or enter the house of the Lord is going against 1) Joseph 2) the scriptures/Doctrine of Christ and most importantly 3) the Lord Himself. They are doing the opposite of DC 121. They either lack heavenly knowledge or they are purposefully going against it. That, I can not submit to. I will not serve two masters (to the best of my understanding.) I am quite frankly shocked that you are asking me to.

    Furthermore, the temple interview question asks if I sustain them “AS” a PSR. Not “to be” a PSR. Therefore, if they are not prophesying, seeing, or revealing, I cannot by there own question answer in the affirmative. They condemn themselves by their own question. They ask me to tell a lie.

    You say someone cannot be led by the Holy Ghost without submitting to these men. I say that is incorrect. My experiences tell me otherwise.

    To each there own.

    God bless.

  5. Jeffrey,

    Any person(s) or any church, who asks me to make a vocal declaration of a man in order to enter the waters of baptism or enter the house of the Lord is going against 1) Joseph 2) the scriptures/Doctrine of Christ and most importantly 3) the Lord Himself.

    Maybe you missed it, but in the post I quoted the Lord, who, coincidentally, asked the Jewish chief priests, scribes and elders to make a vocal declaration concerning a man (John the Baptist,) which they refused to do. Jesus, in fact, continually referred back to John, testifying that that man was a prophet. In the time of Jesus, you couldn’t come to Christ without first accepting John as a prophet. Or, to put it another way, if you rejected John, you also rejected Jesus; if you rejected Jesus, you also rejected John; if you accepted John, you also accepted Jesus; and if you accepted Jesus, you also accepted John. The two went hand-in-hand. A lot of the stuff that the leadership does is not done without any precedent. They look at the scriptures, see a precedent, feel inspired to do it and then do it.

    I will not serve two masters (to the best of my understanding.) I am quite frankly shocked that you are asking me to.

    No one is asking you to serve two masters, only to serve the Lord Jesus Christ, who says to submit to those keys.

    Furthermore, the temple interview question asks if I sustain them “AS” a PSR. Not “to be” a PSR. Therefore, if they are not prophesying, seeing, or revealing, I cannot by there own question answer in the affirmative. They condemn themselves by their own question. They ask me to tell a lie.

    If you cannot sustain them as PS&R’s, then don’t sustain. No one is asking you to tell a lie, but to answer honestly. The question itself has a precedent from the time of Joseph Smith, for it was Joseph Smith, not the other leaders, who initiated the practice of having the leaders sustained by their congregations as “prophets, seers and revelators.” After his death, this practice ceased and was recommenced around the 1950’s or so, for the two leading general quorums. So, even there, there is a precedent.

    You say someone cannot be led by the Holy Ghost without submitting to these men.

    Not to the men, but to their keys. The Holy Ghost can lead anyone, regardless of membership in this church, but once a person becomes aware of the keys held by these men, the Holy Ghost will command that person to submit to those keys. This doesn’t come from me, but from the Holy Ghost. But, as I stated in the post:

    I swear I think I’m probably speaking to the wall when I write these words—for my experience is that people just refuse to ask God about me and my revelations and prophecies.

  6. gachesonmailcom, a lot of people point to the story of Abinadi and Alma and say, “See? That was outside of the hierarchy! God can operate outside of the hierarchy! These keys aren’t absolutely necessary or vital!” What they fail to understand is that they are comparing apples to oranges. They are superimposing our current church state upon the Nephite history, which operated tribally until the church was finally organized by Alma. After the church was organized, that organization, and only that organization, held the keys of salvation. The ancient tribal priesthood functions are almost entirely unknown to latter-day saints, so we just see a king with priests and think that that must have been a church organization. In other words, people are reading these scriptures and interpreting them without a freaking clue.

    False prophets will continually point to Alma and misinterpret that story over and over again. And people, hearing their words, and thinking, “Oh, yeah, that makes sense!” will follow them out of the church, not understanding that the false prophet didn’t know what the scripture was all about, but was just winging it and wresting it. So, I will be real clear, once again, and try to spell this out for any that read this comment:

    The Mormon church began with Alma. Therefore, all your church precedents must come from Alma onward. King Noah’s history and Abinadi showing up, was not a church example, but a tribal one. The church and tribe are not the same. The whole vision of the tribal revelation I received some years ago is not fully unfolded to me. It is still largely a mystery to me, but that seed was given and will, in time, be sprouted into the full-fledged tribal doctrine. I suppose the Josephite will be the one to unfold it fully. But one thing I do know, and it is even stated quite clearly in that revelation, is that church and tribe are not the same. So, pointing to king Noah and Abinadi and Alma as an example that there is no ironclad need to follow church keys is incorrect.

    I hope your spunk returns before long but if you have to take a sabbatical and withdraw from your anarchist voice for a season, that is okay…BUT please don’t recommend we play a role in Noah’s court, we’d perhaps be wiser to see how we might play a Latter-Day Alma role.

    Lol. My spunk has not left. I am as spunky as ever. But this bulldog is on a leash, and that leash is held by the Lord. And when the Lord says, “Sit still!” I sit still.

    As stated in the post, anyone can find out the truthfulness of my words. Just ask God about them.

  7. Hello again. I find your analysis between “tribal” and “church” leadership quite interesting and entirely new to me.
    Is it possible to have you share a couple of scripture references that brought you to that concept?
    In my less than perfect perspective of the gospel and the Book of Mormon and the other scriptures, Ive always seen the scriptures as a map that outlines the evolution of God’s church and his people.
    We know when Elizabeth left the Jerusalem area to raise John ( in the wilderness), she walked away from the church, the church that aligned itself so entirely with the government that her child was no longer safe in the city in which her husband served in the temple.
    We know hundreds of years earlier, in the same city, the church was so corrupt that Lehi would have been murdered if he had continued to preach the gospel and to call the church members and Jerusalem citizens to repentance. We know Two of his sons had equivalent disposition about the gospel and their father as the church in Jerusalem possessed. We know that because Nephi was required to obtain the plates from Laban (a leader in the church) and Laban felt no qualms about killing Nephi and his brothers to Maintain the plates and Lehi’s wealth.
    We know Laman and Lemuel were unrighteous sons, lacking faith, even lacking fear of God (either they both had neurological dysfunctions that kept them from learning obedience from their father or Nephi, or even and Angel, etc. Or they did not fear God). That same lack of fear sounds a bit like Cain and it is the very disposition of all men and women who make things, power, money, sports, food, etc their dedicated idols.
    We will have to agree to disagree about Alma’s role in establishing a “first” church for his and Abinadi followers.
    They actually made the “course correction” you voiced you hoped the saints would bring to pass in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I say that because Alma repented as invited by Abinadi. Alma had keys from his role as a priest in Noah’s church leadership model and probably from long before that period. But he knew those keys were null and void without repentance, humility and sincerity.
    He was NOT creating something new. He was restablishing the church and gospel Abinadi reminded them all they should be practicing.
    Chpt 11 of Mosiah States vs 5, Noah “put down all the priests that had been CONSECRATED by his father … Vs 10 States “he caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls if the TEMPLE…” VS 11 says and the seats which were set apart for the high priests ( this sounds like the “church” to me).
    Interestingly, vs 20 says, “there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi… I have seen their abominations, their wickedness, their whoredoms; and except they REPENT ( which indicates they knew the gospel but desired not to practice it… After all they even attended the temple) I will visit them in mine anger.”
    In vs 27, ….” Who is this Abinadi, that I and my people should be judged of him, orcwhobis the Lord, that should bring upon my people such great affliction… Vs 29 Now the eyes of my people were blinded; therefore they hardened their hearts against the words of Abinadi…”
    It tells us in the header for Chpt 12… “The” false priests” quote the Scriptures and “pretend” to keep the law of Moses “… Once again sounds like the church not a ” tribe”. Then Abinadi reminded them of the 10 commandments, because they had strayed so farc in their beliefs about the gospel.
    In vs 25, “are you priests and ” pretend” to teach this people … ( sounds like a church and not a tribe to me)
    Vs 30 says, … “Yea, ye know that I speak the truth and you ought to tremble before God… ”
    These people had a church, a temple, priests/teachers and professed to have and live the Law of Moses. They had a church, not a tribe. They had a kingdom full of proud, lazy. Idolatrous members, all encouraged to be such by Noah and his priests.
    In Chpt 13:3-8… Abinadi is protected divinely until he finishes his message. This prophet was speaking to church leaders, not tribal leaders.
    I’ve said my piece and will withdraw. Your “I’ve changed my mind” Commentary is about your currently voiced perspectives. You indicated you know the “change of mind” has been brought about by the Holy Ghost. What does that mean about all the commentaries you’ve provided since 2007 until this “change of mind”?
    For example… Is your believed concept about tithing, true now, or was that just your own belief at the time you wrote the piece? I could mention many other pointed commentaries you’ve provided to us, but that isn’t necessary.

  8. Good!!! You recognize what is happening! Leaving this church is the act of a fool who has not “TRULY” received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Ghost will testify to the “humble” heart that “all is not well in Zion”, but will also testify to the “truly humble” heart that most of these men are the men He chose, even if they are not as powerful in their calling as Joseph Smith. The cleansing of the church is a reality that most studious members accept as an essential reality of how God is going to handle this problem. I see the problems but I also am realistic that the Lord is performing His work through these men in spite of their weaknesses. This is the day of the wheat and the tares! No reasonable person should expect that a cleansing would start in “His House” unless something was seriously wrong. When was the last time you went to the shelf took down a clean, spotless, dust free glass and cleaned it??? Every day we take a dirty glass out of the sink and give it a good cleansing. That tells the story.
    I did inquire of the Lord and your words are true, concerning your relationship with the Holy Ghost. So I will challenge you to get some further answers from God concerning Isaiah 29.

    The Hebrew scholars contradict the bible dictionary; Ariel does not mean Lion of the Lord it means in Hebrew “Gatherer of God” or the gathering of God or what is being gathered to God. It is because the church is the Gatherer of Ephraim and Manasseh, that Isaiah used the name Ariel to describe a city that did not exist yet when he was living in Old Jerusalem. Your personal revelation will tell you that Ariel is SLC and surrounding real estate. Ariel extends up to Malad ID, down into central UT, it also encompasses Echo Canyon on the east and past Tooele on the west. That truly is the heart of the church.

    Ariel, the city where David dwelt! means the “Modern David” who our early prophets and ancient prophets declared to be the ruler of Isreal in the last days.

    1 Woe (is a very bad word in the lexicon of God) to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; (means: time will continue on for years) let them kill sacrifices. (means: to perform the ordinances of the Lord)

    2 Yet I will distress (unpleasant word to God) Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. (means: that is what He is going to do.)

    3 And I will camp (means: the Chinese and Russian invading army will take over the areas now inhabited by the saints who did not respond to the “invitation” of the church to flee to the mountains to the tent cities) against thee round about,(we’re going to be surrounded) and will lay siege (encircled) against thee with a mount,(anciently horse and chariots now it means tanks trucks etc,) and I will raise forts (in place for a long time) against thee.

    4 And thou shalt be brought down,(the cleanse will be a disaster to the unprepared) and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

    5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, (the fools who did not listen to the HG will become nothing in power) and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.( the day of the Lord will come “As a thief in the night…)

    6 Thou shalt be visited of the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.(this is the redemption of Ariel by the power of God which will be held by David, who will remain hidden until this time.)

    7 ¶And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, (there is going to be more than Russian and Chines troops, both JS and George Washington saw that Africa, China and Europe all came against America and “cleansed it, until the boys from the west delivered it, being led by the Omnipotent David) even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.

    8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion. (all armies will perish in front of the Lord David in that day, only the Lord will be exalted.)

    13 ¶Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

    14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder:( this is the redemption of Zion to God for the reasons He enumerates) for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

    15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

    16 Surely your turning of things upside down (re-writing the things of Joseph Smith) shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

    17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest? Weather changes prophesied to accompany the Millennial Era.)

    18 ¶And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

    19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

    20 For the terrible one (meaning Lucifer) is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

    21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

    22 Therefore thus saith the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. (Ariel gathered Jacob’s two sons prior to the cleanse)

    23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

    24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

    A careful study of the D&C will show that John the Beloved-John the Revelator will be the Gatherer of Israel and will remain in hiding until that day. So he (John the Revelator) grew up in SLC but no one knew who he was)

    That should keep you and the Holy Spirit busy for a little while. Thanks for your dedication to the truth, and a desire to do that which is right according to the Holy Spirit.

    Ezra Taft Benson warned the Priesthood in his first address to the evening Priesthood meeting when he was first installed as PSR, that the Holy Spirit is the only answer. I paraphrase “Brethren, the nature of problems in the Last Days is such that if you do not have the Holy Spirit, you will not know which way to go.”

    God bless you

  9. Anarchist, that’s quite a list of assertions. While I can’t say I agree with many of them, I will say that I’m really surprised that you are so taken with our modern Mormon concept of keys. It is fundamentally Catholic and not something I can find any scriptural support for or evidence of in Joseph’s day. In fact, our scriptures (D&C 121, in particular) argue against the modern conception. To be clear, I’m not talking about keys of knowledge, as Joseph spoke of them & scriptures use the term. I’m talking about the modern, top-down, command-and-control concept of “keys” and “key holders”, where there are “chains of command” dictating, limiting, and controlling what can be done by whom with the authority “supposed”. (as D&C 121 calls it) It’s obviously a concept that exists outside of Catholicism and modern Mormonism, too, in such places as the military, corporate businesses, etc. How do you justify your extreme reliance on this idea when the God of heaven seems to work in a “distributed” way less prone to disruption from a single point of failure? (ala John 3:8, the Lord’s “unauthorized” call of Paul not through Peter, Abinadi not through Noah, etc.) And when the “most correct book” includes none of the concept?

    Also your reference to D&C 22 surprised me a little. I’d expect you were already aware that our modern baptismal ordinance does not match the revealed baptismal ordinance that the Lord was speaking of here–what was used at least the first 5 years after the 1830 organization in NY. And what also of the fact that literally every ordinance given through Joseph has been altered. How can this please God when he has made it clear that they are unchanging as ordained by Him from the beginning of the world? We have always had fun pointing out the changes made by the Catholics to baptism but seem to exempt ourselves from being accountable for making the same mistakes.

  10. To: gachesonmailcom, David Brown, and Vaughn Hughes (the last three people who commented above.)

    I will be kind of busy for a little while, but I will try to find time over the next few days or week to respond to your comments, so if you don’t see an immediate response by me, it doesn’t mean I’m avoiding you, it just means I’m occupied with life. Based upon what I read, though, in some of the comments above, it looks like I may have to publish yet another post and explain things a bit more fully. Posting a comment here probably won’t be enough to deal with the confusion generated by this post. I do appreciate the feedback given.

  11. Thank you for the update. Before you write additional information on the “change of mind” subject, I would recommend you visit YouTube to view Kevin Kraut’s two pieces ( Lukewarm 1 and Lukewarm 2). As a journalist, (retired) I’ve done my research homework about these two videos and I believe you may find the info within the videos quite eye opening, if you’ve not already viewed them.

  12. Around the time I joined the church, I got the impression that I was supposed to help change the Church from within.

  13. pinkrose89, when did you join the church?

  14. Vaughn Hughes,

    Anarchist, that’s quite a list of assertions. While I can’t say I agree with many of them, I will say that I’m really surprised that you are so taken with our modern Mormon concept of keys. It is fundamentally Catholic and not something I can find any scriptural support for or evidence of in Joseph’s day. In fact, our scriptures (D&C 121, in particular) argue against the modern conception. To be clear, I’m not talking about keys of knowledge, as Joseph spoke of them & scriptures use the term. I’m talking about the modern, top-down, command-and-control concept of “keys” and “key holders”, where there are “chains of command” dictating, limiting, and controlling what can be done by whom with the authority “supposed”. (as D&C 121 calls it) It’s obviously a concept that exists outside of Catholicism and modern Mormonism, too, in such places as the military, corporate businesses, etc. How do you justify your extreme reliance on this idea when the God of heaven seems to work in a “distributed” way less prone to disruption from a single point of failure? (ala John 3:8, the Lord’s “unauthorized” call of Paul not through Peter, Abinadi not through Noah, etc.) And when the “most correct book” includes none of the concept?

    My understanding of priesthood keys can be found in The Priesthood and in An alternate view of the keys. Also see my latest post. The examples you give (John 3:8, the calling of Paul and also Abinadi), do not have reference to the keys of the priesthood. The “most correct book” is an abridgment. We can’t expect it to contain everything.

    Also your reference to D&C 22 surprised me a little. I’d expect you were already aware that our modern baptismal ordinance does not match the revealed baptismal ordinance that the Lord was speaking of here–what was used at least the first 5 years after the 1830 organization in NY.

    As far as I know, the ordinance has always been performed by immersion. It hasn’t changed. The wording of the prayer, from what is written in 3 Nephi to what is currently written in the D&C is what you must be referring to. Last I checked, in 1835, Joseph Smith, Jun., was still around, acting with full authority as the Lord’s seer. So, that wording change was authorized. (He had the keys, see?)

    And what also of the fact that literally every ordinance given through Joseph has been altered. How can this please God when he has made it clear that they are unchanging as ordained by Him from the beginning of the world? We have always had fun pointing out the changes made by the Catholics to baptism but seem to exempt ourselves from being accountable for making the same mistakes.

    See my latest post concerning the ordinances being true from 1830 to 19__ to 2014. The Catholics haven’t had legitimate priesthood for over a thousand years. When was the last time the law of common consent was in operation in that church?

  15. gachesonmailcom,

    Hello again. I find your analysis between “tribal” and “church” leadership quite interesting and entirely new to me.
    Is it possible to have you share a couple of scripture references that brought you to that concept?

    See my latest post.

    We know when Elizabeth left the Jerusalem area to raise John ( in the wilderness), she walked away from the church, the church that aligned itself so entirely with the government that her child was no longer safe in the city in which her husband served in the temple.

    There was no church at that time. See my latest post.

    We know hundreds of years earlier, in the same city, the church was so corrupt that Lehi would have been murdered if he had continued to preach the gospel and to call the church members and Jerusalem citizens to repentance. We know Two of his sons had equivalent disposition about the gospel and their father as the church in Jerusalem possessed. We know that because Nephi was required to obtain the plates from Laban (a leader in the church) and Laban felt no qualms about killing Nephi and his brothers to Maintain the plates and Lehi’s wealth.

    There was no church at that time. See my latest post.

    We will have to agree to disagree about Alma’s role in establishing a “first” church for his and Abinadi followers.

    See:

    And behold, I am called Mormon, being called after the land of Mormon, the land in which Alma did establish the church among the people, yea, the first church which was established among them after their transgression. (3 Ne. 5:12)

    You also stated:

    He was NOT creating something new. He was restablishing the church and gospel Abinadi reminded them all they should be practicing.

    There was no re-establishment of any church. It had never before been established. See the latest post.

    Chpt 11 of Mosiah States vs 5, Noah “put down all the priests that had been CONSECRATED by his father … Vs 10 States “he caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls if the TEMPLE…” VS 11 says and the seats which were set apart for the high priests ( this sounds like the “church” to me).

    This is the problem. Lots of things sound like “church,” but aren’t. “Sea” and “see” sound the same, but aren’t. You are projecting your church filter onto a tribal image.

    It tells us in the header for Chpt 12… “The” false priests” quote the Scriptures and “pretend” to keep the law of Moses “… Once again sounds like the church not a ” tribe”.

    It doesn’t matter what it sounds like, only what it is. The Nephites were organized tribally, as Josephites, Jacobites, Zoramites, etc.

    In vs 25, “are you priests and ” pretend” to teach this people … ( sounds like a church and not a tribe to me)

    Lol. You are cracking me up.

    These people had a church, a temple, priests/teachers and professed to have and live the Law of Moses. They had a church, not a tribe. They had a kingdom full of proud, lazy. Idolatrous members, all encouraged to be such by Noah and his priests.

    No, they did not have a church. Churches only began appearing among the people once the church of Christ came into existence (upon the baptism of Helam.) From that point on, we start hearing of a true church (the church of Christ) and also of false churches. Before that time, all things were done tribally. See my latest post for more info.

    In Chpt 13:3-8… Abinadi is protected divinely until he finishes his message. This prophet was speaking to church leaders, not tribal leaders.

    No, he was speaking to tribal leaders. Take off the church filter you have on that sees “a church” everywhere, even though it is not mentioned anywhere in the text.

    Your “I’ve changed my mind” Commentary is about your currently voiced perspectives. You indicated you know the “change of mind” has been brought about by the Holy Ghost. What does that mean about all the commentaries you’ve provided since 2007 until this “change of mind”?

    The latest instructions are what are important. At the time I suggested to the saints to be instruments of change, using the law of common consent, it would have worked, had they listened and actually done it at that time. But it fell on deaf ears. Instead, people who use the law of common consent to give an opposing vote are doing it because they are dissenters, to cause a change that would alter the doctrine of the church, not to bring the church back into conformity to the revelations. The time has passed and now what I suggested won’t work. But it no longer matters, because the Holy Ghost has made it clear that the Josephite will do it alone, without needing anyone else to do it.

    Is your believed concept about tithing, true now, or was that just your own belief at the time you wrote the piece?

    The articles I wrote on tithing were accurate and expedient for their time. But when the Lord gives more information, what was expedient before, may no longer expedient now. That is the case now. The last blog on tithing I’ve written is the most accurate and expedient information. It must be understood that some laws are eternal, and they never change, whereas some laws are expedient and, according to the times, these laws may no longer be expedient to be obeyed. The law of Moses was an expedient law. There was a time to live it, according to the law of expediency, and then there came a time when it was no longer expedient to live it. This is why Abinadi taught:

    I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses. (Mosiah 13:27)

  16. Truly, Anarchist, you have a dizzying intellect.

  17. I think you are a troll Vaughn.

  18. No need to accuse me of being a troll. My comment was a light-hearted reference to a situation in a culturally well-known movie (The Princess Bride), where one party concedes the argument/point to the other, or at least finds it unnecessary or unproductive to attempt to further discuss it. (I suspect LDS Anarchist caught it, though I concede that my attempts at humor are usually inadequate.) In this situation, I read both his follow-on post and his reply to my initial comment. It was clear to me that he had both considered the points I raised and also felt completely comfortable with his understanding. As such (and as implied by second comment), I see no need to attempt to extend the dialog.

  19. Ok, my bad, God bless !

  20. I agree entirely about our need to continue to have full due respect for the church. I also agree that there is a Josephite who will reveal the sealed portion of holy writ and that in due time the intelligence of this discovery will reach the hearts and minds of all people who are sincerely wanting to build up the Father’s Kingdom, which we have already laid the foundation of. Excellent rant!


Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

Comments RSS