“Keep your mouth shut and hold your tongue!” (Leave the leadership alone.)


A new revelation and commandment

As time goes on, I am becoming more and more aware of problems in the church, of practices that don’t match our scriptures, of ecclesiastical abuses and errors in judgment and policy, etc.  Sometimes the abuses hit home and a nerve and I feel like “putting forth my hand” to make a correction, speaking directly to the leadership.  This blog, for the most part, does not address the leadership, but the membership.  This is by design.  I have always taken a “leave the leadership alone” stance and have always believed that the Lord will make His correction in His own way and in His own time.  And so, I have never spoken, though occasionally some words nevertheless get out, but only in general terms.

However, I have watched as others have spoken out, publicly, and these have been disciplined or even excommunicated for doing so.

Now, I want everyone to understand that when I started this blog, I left the leadership alone because that was the Lord’s business, not mine.  But as time went on, I began to feel a desire to speak up and to these many issues, for there are many corrections to be made and many misconceptions, both at the general and leadership levels.  At some point, while feeling these desires, I began to offer up prayers to God about them.

(The reader needs to understand something about me and prayer.  When I pray to God for something, I don’t offer up one or two occasional prayers, or pray daily for a minute or two.  No, I send up a barrage of constant and fervent prayers, all day long, over many days, incessantly, for as long as it takes, until He answers me.  I send up what seem to me to be millions of prayers and if God could open up your ears and eyes so that you could know of these things, you would also say the prayers seem never-ending.  As a result, I eventually always get a response from Him in some form.)

In this particular case, I got an answer fairly quickly.  Now, my request was to be able to open my mouth and speak about all that I was observing concerning the leadership.  But the Spirit said to me:

“Hold your tongue and shut your mouth!”

Apparently, it is neither the time to correct the leadership, nor am I, or anyone else, authorized to do so.  I must assume, from this revelation and commandment, that it will be up to the Josephite to make the correction.

Now, after getting this revelation, I, nevertheless, started to write a draft post—not on this blog, but in a notebook, so as to at least put down on paper my gripes—and was smitten, by the Spirit, with a stupor of thought.  I couldn’t figure this one out.  I could see the problems, but not the solutions.

What this means for others

Lest anyone think that this revelation is for my consumption only, of only personal application, let me say that this post is NOT forbidden me by the Spirit.  I can write it with God’s blessing.  As I said above, no one is authorized to correct or even criticize the leadership publicly.  If you have got a gripe or think you’ve been the victim of ecclesiastical abuse, go through the proper channels, and if you do not get satisfaction, then start offering up your prayers and complaints to God, but “keep your mouth shut!”  Do not make the mistake of speaking out publicly against the leadership.  If you do so, it is because you are being deceived by a false spirit and the devil is operating in you, despite any true grievances you may have.

There is a time for all things

And Alma tarried many days with Amulek before he began to preach unto the people.  And it came to pass that the people did wax more gross in their iniquities.  (Alma 8:27-28)

God did not send these two forth immediately, but waited until the people had waxed more gross in their iniquities.  Now is not the time for anyone to criticize the church leadership.  So, don’t do it.

You’ve criticized and been kicked out.  Now what?

Repent, humble yourself before the leadership and come back in.  (I bet there will be many that don’t like this counsel!)

And he [Zedekiah] did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord his God, and humbled not himself before Jeremiah the prophet speaking from the mouth of the Lord.  (2 Chronicles 36:12)

Jeremiah 23

I’ll close by using this chapter of Jeremiah as my example, which speaks on false prophets.  For those who end up criticizing the leadership, typically do so because of a belief that they are false prophets.  In truth, they are not false prophets, for they don’t prophesy anything, true or false.  They are merely priests and teachers that like to quote each other a lot:

Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbor.  (Jeremiah 23:30)

And they like to be sustained and called prophets, seers and revelators.  And they like to have their counsel obeyed.  Because they have the keys.  And they DO have the keys.  But on to Jeremiah.

Now, here is the main part of this chapter that deals with false prophets in our day, which I will not fully expound:

Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.  The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.  (Jeremiah 23:19-20)

So, everybody just chill.  In the latter days, even in our days, God will deal with these false prophets, using a whirlwind.  In other words, He is going to do this by His own miraculous power, and the whirlwind (tornado) is the coming sign of that power.

On to Jeremiah 23:

Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!

saith the Lord.

Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people;

Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings,

saith the Lord.

And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking,

saith the Lord.

¶Behold, the days come,

saith the Lord,

that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called,

The Lord Our Righteousness.

Therefore, behold, the days come,

saith the Lord,

that they shall no more say,

The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

But,

The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country,

and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

¶Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the Lord, and because of the words of his holiness.

For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.

For both prophet and priest are profane;

yea, in my house have I found their wickedness,

saith the Lord.

Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation,

saith the Lord.

And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets;

Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

Thus saith the Lord of hosts,

Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.

They say still unto them that despise me,

The Lord hath said,

Ye shall have peace;

and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart,

No evil shall come upon you.

For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

Am I a God at hand,

saith the Lord,

and not a God afar off?

Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him?

saith the Lord.

Do not I fill heaven and earth?

saith the Lord.

I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying,

I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully.

What is the chaff to the wheat?

saith the Lord.

Is not my word like as a fire?

saith the Lord;

and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets,

saith the Lord,

that steal my words every one from his neighbor.

Behold, I am against the prophets,

saith the Lord,

that use their tongues, and say,

He saith.

Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams,

saith the Lord,

and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all,

saith the Lord.

¶And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying,

What is the burden of the Lord?

thou shalt then say unto them,

What burden?

I will even forsake you,

saith the Lord.

And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say,

The burden of the Lord,

I will even punish that man and his house.

Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother,

What hath the Lord answered?

and,

What hath the Lord spoken?

And the burden of the Lord shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God.

Thus shalt thou say to the prophet,

What hath the Lord answered thee?

and,

What hath the Lord spoken?

But since ye say,

The burden of the Lord;

therefore thus saith the Lord;

Because ye say this word,

The burden of the Lord,

and I have sent unto you, saying,

Ye shall not say,

The burden of the Lord;

Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Okay, so the point is that although there are and will be false pastors, prophets and priests that scatter the Lord’s people, preach lies and so forth, it ain’t up to you or me to fix this.  If ever this prohibition of the Spirit is lifted, I will post accordingly, but these are the standing orders I have received—and it was last year (2014) that this was communicated to me—and according to my understanding, they apply to everyone, not just me.  So heed them.

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36 Comments

  1. I hear a lot people say ‘the Lord said to me’ these days, when all people had was thoughts in their own head. I’m not saying that the Lord cannot speak through one’s own thoughts, I just always as k to clarify how exactly did the Lord speak.

    So, in your case when you say ‘But the Spirit said to me: “Hold your tongue and shut your mouth!””. Were these thoughts inside your head? were these audible words you heard with your ears? was it a night dream? a day vision?

  2. it were to the right brain heart, i guess, among others,with muscular feelings…

  3. jackdale76,

    So, in your case when you say ‘But the Spirit said to me: “Hold your tongue and shut your mouth!””. Were these thoughts inside your head? were these audible words you heard with your ears? was it a night dream? a day vision?

    Just about every revelation I have ever received from the Lord through the Holy Ghost has been by a “voice” heard in my head. I say “voice” in quotations because it is always pure intelligence, which I then have to translate into words. The bodily reactions that I get when I “hear” (I should say “perceive”) this “voice” is a corresponding reaction in my physical body that happens because of a reaction that my spirit body has when this voice speaks. In other words, it is a whole soul reaction, not just a physical thing. It is simply a recognition reaction. Whenever someone hears a voice they are familiar with, and it is of a voice of a loved one, one that they enjoy hearing, and perhaps they haven’t heard from that person in some time, there is a physical reaction that occurs upon hearing the voice, in which you recognize that voice and rejoice upon hearing it. In the same way, whenever I “hear” the voice of the Spirit, my body (whole body, that is) reacts in recognition. There is nothing in the natural world that corresponds to the voice of the Spirit. In other words, it ain’t just my own voice plus some physical reaction that I am just assigning to some other worldly force. It is not me doing it to myself. When the Spirit speaks, my soul vibrates, and it never vibrates like that with any other stimuli. I first noticed that reaction during the baptism of fire, which I always described with these words, “Every cell in my body shouted for joy!” Those are the words of the nine-year old LDS Anarchist trying to describe what was experienced. A shout is a harmonic, a vibration, and that is what it felt like then and every single time since, whenever I hear the voice of the Spirit. Joseph Smith described the experience in this way:

    Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying: (D&C 85:6)

    There was one time, on my mission, that the Spirit spoke to me audibly. There was also a time, mentioned in a recent comment I wrote on “the Lord will do nothing” post, that I audibly heard evil spirits (devils) trying to get me to doubt and deny my testimony.

    The voice of the Spirit speaking to the mind and heart appears to be a standard practice for the Lord. Consider Enos’ description:

    And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

    And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.

    And I said: Lord, how is it done?

    And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.

    Now, it came to pass that when I had heard these words I began to feel a desire for the welfare of my brethren, the Nephites; wherefore, I did pour out my whole soul unto God for them.

    And while I was thus struggling in the spirit, behold, the voice of the Lord came into my mind again, saying: (Enos 1:5-10)

    I suppose a lot of people are unsure whether the voice in their head is of the Spirit or just themselves speaking, and thus are always wavering on whether God has spoken to them or not. This doubt causes them to stumble and not get the direct answers they seek. Others go to the other extreme and consider all their thoughts to be of the Spirit, as long as these thoughts sound divine. In other words, they could just be imagined thoughts, or thoughts deposited by an evil spirit, but since they sound revelatory, like bona fide scripture, they just place a stamp of approval on them and say, “That’s of God.” I differentiate. The vast majority of my thoughts are just me thinking and feeling. But occasionally I’ll hear the voice of the Spirit and it is instant recognition and reaction, for this voice is altogether different. It ain’t me, at all. The baptism of fire I had sealed it for me, because when I felt the Spirit that time, I felt the Spirit enter my body from the outside in and then the vibratory experience happened when the Spirit spoke. This wasn’t something I felt internally only, it was an external power that entered into me from outside of me and then sort of exploded into fire with an accompanying revelation. So, God gave me a permanent key to be able to always recognize when the Spirit spoke to me. Although I no longer feel that entrance of the Spirit into me, for the Spirit is in me now, having taken up residence, I still shake whenever the voice speaks.

    As for night dreams, day visions, etc., I have had all of those types of manifestations, too. But for the most part, it is the spirit of prophecy that manifests more than anything else, I suppose. And it (the spirit of prophecy) is quite a different experience than the spirit of revelation, although it proceeds, of course, from the same Spirit.

  4. I feel like expounding more, so…

    More on that resonant frequency

    In the post above I quoted the entire 23rd chapter of the Book of Jeremiah, and even Jeremiah says the same thing:

    Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the Lord, and because of the words of his holiness.

    When the Spirit speaks, it causes the prophet’s or saint’s spirit to resonate at its resonant frequency, which causes the body to shake also, since the physical body happens to be attached to our spirit bodies. The presence of spiritual resonance, then, is a key to discern when the Spirit is speaking. Spiritual resonance is not the same, though, as just feeling strong emotion, or just feeling a muscular twitching, or an intellectually enlightening experience. These latter things may accompany the resonance, but alone they don’t indicate that the Spirit has spoken.

    The voice of the Spirit is an actual voice

    Although words are not heard, it is nonetheless an actual language spoken and understood, though not of any terrestrial origin. So, it is entirely appropriate to say “the voice of the Spirit” and that one can “hear” it. It is simply spoken on a different level of communication and must be heard on that same level to be understood. Pure intelligence is a good description of this language.

    Translated vs. un-translated

    This pure intelligence voice must be translated into the English language (or whatever the language of the prophet happens to be) in order to be communicated and understood by to others. Nevertheless, the revelation can be kept entirely in its pure intelligent (un-translated) form and be understood by the prophet alone. In my case, my mind has ever been content to boil a revelation down to just a few translated words and leave the rest as un-translated intelligence.

    This post’s revelation as an example

    In 2014, when I received this revelation, I translated out, “Shut your mouth!” and left the rest in its unpacked form. For this post, though, I thought that three words was a little short for a revelation I’m putting out in the public eye, so I re-visited the revelation and re-translated it and pulled out what is written in the title, “Keep your mouth shut and hold your tongue!” in which I pulled out a few more words, adding, “hold your tongue.” As I began to write the post and got to the point where I was going to write out the revelation, I realized that “keep your mouth shut and hold your tongue” didn’t make a whole lot of sense, so I changed the order, again retranslating it, so that it read, “Hold your tongue and shut your mouth!”

    So, there were three times I translated this revelation: 1) “Shut your mouth!”; 2) “Keep your mouth shut and hold your tongue!”; 3) “Hold your tongue and shut your mouth!” Now, the order isn’t important because the meaning conveyed is the same, nevertheless, when I wrote out the title (the 2nd re-translation), and added the other words, the order was correct, whereas the 3rd re-translation order is reversed. All three translations are abridgments of the revelation and the 3rd re-translation has the order reversed in order to make it make better sense, for you do not shut your mouth and then hold your tongue, but you first hold your tongue and then shut your mouth. However, if I were to write out the whole revelation more fully, using the King James Version scriptural language and form, which is more appropriate for public consumption, you’d see that the title order (2nd re-translation) is the more correct one:

    Behold! Thus saith the Lord: Thou shalt shut thy mouth, for none of my saints shall be authorized to speak against the leaders of my church, to criticize and correct them publicly, unless I send them. But the time is not yet, therefore, thou shalt heed these words and hold thy tongue.

    Now, this is the 4th re-translation of the revelation and I have added many words to it, or, more correctly speaking, translated out more words into English.

    Joseph Smith would go back over his revelations and “doctor” them up, adding many more words. Some people take issue with this, but when you understand that a revelation is a packet of pure intelligence, only part of which a prophet translates into words, and the other part is either taught in the prophet’s own words, or kept to himself, then going back and translating the rest of the packet’s contents, adding many more words, makes a bit more sense.

    Using part of a revelation as a prophet’s teachings

    We can see this same pattern in Jeremiah 23. When Jeremiah says:

    For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

    Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

    The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

    This is all part of the same word of the Lord given to him in that packet, but which he didn’t translate out as the Lord’s words, using instead his own words to communicate the message. Another example is Mormon:

    For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:

    Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

    And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children. (Moroni 8:7-9)

    Mormon’s translated out text of God’s words didn’t mention anything about mockery, yet Mormon here says that is a solemn mockery to baptize little children. The “solemn mockery” part of the revelation was unpacked and merely taught in Mormon’s own words. Mormon isn’t putting his own interpretation onto the revelation, he is simply giving the rest of the revelation in a different form, as a teaching using his own words. Prophets do this all the time. Heck, even I did it in this post:

    But the Spirit said to me:

    “Hold your tongue and shut your mouth!”

    Apparently, it is neither the time to correct the leadership, nor am I, or anyone else, authorized to do so.

    All of that, not just the first part in quotes, is taken from the revelation. Compare that again to the 4th re-translation:

    Behold! Thus saith the Lord: Thou shalt shut thy mouth, for none of my saints shall be authorized to speak against the leaders of my church, to criticize and correct them publicly, unless I send them. But the time is not yet, therefore, thou shalt heed these words and hold thy tongue.

    So, I pulled “shut thy mouth” and “hold thy tongue” out, as translated words, and left the rest as an expository teaching.

    Understandings

    All my revelations are given as pure intelligence, or as what I call “my understandings.” Some of my understandings are revealed understandings, given by the spirit of revelation; others are prophetic understandings, given by the spirit of prophecy; all such, as well as all other manifested understandings, are of divine origin and do not proceed from me. There are also understandings which come from the word of knowledge and the word of wisdom, which are gifts of the Spirit, and these are teachings and sayings inspired of God. All these are spiritual understandings which come of God.

    Other understandings come of man; and not to be exclusive, still other understandings are lies sent by the devil, or falsehoods and errors made by men. The latter might be called misunderstandings, or a lack of understanding.

    In my case, I consider all my understandings as true and correct until shown to be false or in error. But I differentiate between my understandings, according to the gift of the discerning of spirits, so that if I label one of my understandings a prophetic understanding, or a revealed or manifested understanding, etc., indicating that it was given by the power of the Holy Ghost, then that particular understanding is considered, by me, and should be considered by others, to be infallible. All my other understandings are considered true until proven false. So I am very careful when I put forth a revelation, or when I say that I have a revelation, because that becomes part of the standard by which I judge all things. In other words, they aren’t my words, they’re God’s words, which are infallible.

    People who think I’m making this stuff up or just delusional believe I just throw any ol’ thought out there and call it “given of God.” I suppose part of the reason why they believe this is because there is no lag time in my assessment of where it comes from, whereas they receive a new thought and ponder and deliberate over it for months and years, wondering whether it came from God or not, doubting the whole time. I have a permanent key for discerning the voice of the Spirit (which key is the resonance mentioned previously) and I also have keys for when the spirit of prophecy and the discerning of spirits are in operation. They possess no keys and thus stumble and choke on my words.

    Pretenders

    And now Abinadi said unto them: Are you priests, and pretend to teach this people, and to understand the spirit of prophesying, and yet desire to know of me what these things mean? (Mosiah 12:25)

    There are a lot of pretended revelations going around. Some delude themselves into thinking all their words and thoughts and understandings are given of God. And so they open up Isaiah and pretend to understand it all, assigning to every word some invented meaning. I have the bona fide spirit of prophecy and yet even I don’t understand everything I read! Some give lengthy “thus saith the Lord” revelations which I find strange, given that that is not how I operate. In other words, I use the operations of the Spirit in me as my standard. My standard for a revelator is me. My standard for a prophet is me. My standard for a seer is Joseph Smith, Jun., ’cause I ain’t no seer, though I have beheld visions, but I got no stones. Certainly it is possible that I am just a minor revelator and a minor prophet, and perhaps these others have gifts greater than mine, being major prophets and revelators. That can certainly be the case. But if their revelations and prophecies contradict my own, then they are just false revelators and false prophets, period. They are just pretenders, pretending to reveal like Joseph Smith did, or to prophesy like the ancient prophets did. I ain’t no pretender and my revelations and prophecies are the real deal, but they are given after my own manner. I don’t go around trying to copy anyone else. I like keeping revelations in their pure intelligence, un-translated, unpacked, unfolded form. Perhaps it is because I am so dang lazy and it seems like a lot of work to translate it all out into English as the actual words of God. Perhaps this is a weakness of mine that I need to correct. But I’ve always considered my revelations as personal, for my consumption only, and thus that I have a right to keep them in any convenient form I choose. Unfortunately, everyone always wants a “thus saith the Lord” revelation, so if I give them one of my revelations, in their partially translated/partially un-translated form, it is never what they expect. But I don’t care. That is their problem that they will have to deal with, for all my revelations are true, regardless of the form they are in.

  5. More on this revelation

    I will use the 4th translation, since now that I’ve actually done it, it seems to be the best version to use:

    Behold! Thus saith the Lord: Thou shalt shut thy mouth, for none of my saints shall be authorized to speak against the leaders of my church, to criticize and correct them publicly, unless I send them. But the time is not yet, therefore, thou shalt heed these words and hold thy tongue.

    Before I begin, don’t anyone go around saying that the saints are bound to this. No one but me is bound to this revelation. It is my personal revelation, but as can be seen from the text, it is applicable to all, which is the very reason why I even mentioned it on this blog. Nevertheless, if anyone asks God to confirm the truth of this revelation to them, the Holy Ghost will do so. At that point, you are bound to it. 😉

    First, it shows that this church, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the church I had in mind when I prayed to the Lord about speaking out on the leaders, is still “the Lord’s church.” So, anyone saying the church is apostate and past repair and to come out of her, are themselves apostate.

    Second, anyone who is publicly critical of, or trying to correct, the leadership, are not authorized to do so and thus are themselves in error, and must self-correct. Saints are the only ones who can speak on corruption, but they must and do obey the commandments of God. They are free to speak freely, unless God commands them to shut their mouths. True saints will recognize this word as of God and will obey it and thus will shut their mouths accordingly, despite what corruption they may see. Professed saints will rebel against this word and bring upon their own heads condemnation by their refusal to conform to God’s word.

    Third, prophets of God to call the people and leadership to repent, to testify of their iniquities and prophesy the blessings and curses that will come upon the them according to how well they heed the Lord’s words, must always be sent by the Lord. No one has the right to just go and perform the labor without first being sent by the Lord. Again from Jeremiah 23::

    I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

    Anyone from 2014 to now who says that they have been sent by the Lord to testify against the leadership of the LDS church is full of $#!t. (Pardon my French.) They are in direct contradiction of this revelation and are apostate.

    Fourth, there may be a time that such testifying will occur, but it is still future to us, so as I said in the post, just chill out.

    These are sufficient keys to get everyone out of following the current crop of imposters, but if you still aren’t sure, then just ask God about this revelation and see what He tells you. This revelation leaves you without any excuse for deception.

  6. More on that whirlwind that is going to take care of the false prophets among us

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

    Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

    And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; first among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. (D&C 112:23-26)

  7. Both meanings are present

    I will add one more comment about this revelation, since it is useful to demonstrate the revelatory process, as I understand it.

    My second translation (“Keep your mouth shut and hold your tongue!”) and my third translation (“Hold your tongue and shut your mouth!) used different phrases to convey the “mouth part.” “Keep your mouth shut” and “shut your mouth” do not convey the same meaning. One implies that the mouth is already shut and must continue to remain shut, while the other implies that the mouth is open and must be shut. So which is it? It has to be one or the other, right? Which one is right and which one is wrong? The answer is that neither is wrong, for the revelation contained both meanings or understandings. This is why I translated it one way (1st time) and then translated it a different way (2nd time) and then translated it the same way as the first time for the 3rd and 4th times.

    In the scriptures we see this curious aspect as prophets quote the words of the Lord, as given by the Spirit, but the “quotation” changes from prophet to prophet, and sometimes from time to time with the same prophet. These prophets didn’t have a problem with this changing quotation, because the original packet of revelatory information had all that information in it, anyway, so both (or all) versions are correct.

    Too much information

    My mind, in its laziness or whatever, will usually just focus on a few words here or there of any revelation I receive, whatever happens to impress upon my mind in the moment, and the rest is just left alone. But sometimes a revelation has just too much information in it, or all of it is impressive, and I just leave the whole thing alone, not extracting anything at all from it, but using my own words to convey its meaning, as best I can. The tribal ordinance revelation I received 5 years ago was one that had too much dang information in it, so when I posted it on this blog, I didn’t even bother to say in that post that is was even a revelation, at all. I just tried to expound some of the information in it. Later on, in the comments, I mentioned that, yes, indeed, this information came from a revelation of the Holy Ghost, but I still didn’t translate out a single word of it. Nor, likely, will I ever. Too much information and too much work. Besides, it was just a personal revelation, meant for me, that I found so interesting that I thought I’d share it with others. If I were to ever pull the words out, it would take the Lord instructing me to do it.

  8. Repent, humble yourself before the leadership and come back in. (I bet there will be many that don’t like this counsel!)

    Lol … not me. That’s what I’ve always heard the Spirit saying to me [included the “Shh” part of it].

    This very issue is where I’ve always parted ways with other “non-mainstream” Mormons — I like to let the leaders dig their own grave, while I do what I think’s right for me and my own.

  9. I’ve read you for years Anarchist, but i must say there is not precedent for this revelation of yours in the Book of Mormon.

    According to your revelation, those who left the Church of King Noah would be told to shut their mouths and repent (?) (repent of what exactly? The instinct to reject their free agency and not stay in the place where their spirit cannot tolerate the false prophets?)

    Are you telling me that those who sauntered off to the wilderness after Alma, that darn apostate who didn’t shut his mouth and respect the leadership, would be condemned for this spirit-infused desire?

    Doesn’t sit right with me, Anarchist. To let my children be indoctrinated to follow the profit, whilst the poor and widows are grinded upon, instead of JESUS as Nephi pointed out clearly that they wrote of and taught about and talked about, would be to clearly disobey the Spirit of God, should one feel it,saying ‘time to leave Babylon!’

    Your article has too much of the ring of an ‘arm-of-flesh’ to it. Sorry but i’m calling you out on this one.

  10. Even more on the revelatory process

    In the previous post, I wrote the Holy Ghost’s Book of Mormon revelation to me as “What you read is true!” Historically, though, since age 14, I have always given it as, “What you are reading is true!” This wasn’t a typo on my part, but another re-translation. All my revelations are instantaneous understandings given in a single moment, packed with information, which then must be extracted into the English language. It is easier to remember a single, instantaneous moment and the instantaneous understanding I had in that moment, than it is to remember all the extracted English words that I ended up getting from the packet. As long as I can remember that moment clearly, and the understanding I got in that moment, I can extract the same information, or even additional information, from the packet. To give an example: the Jonah post I put up on this blog was me remembering an instantaneous understanding, received years before, and then re-extracting the information. If you could compare the original version to this blog’s version, they would be virtually identical, using the same words and phrases. When the D&C 132 revelation was burned, Joseph Smith said it was okay because he knew the revelation by heart and could dictate it again at any time. He hadn’t memorized the unpacked and extracted words of the revelation, but had committed to memory the instant and understanding received in that revelatory moment. So had I for the Jonah material. And so Joseph could re-write that lengthy revelation, and I could re-write the lengthy Jonah exposition. Another example is Jeremiah. After Jeremiah had committed all his words to a book, the king, Jehoiakim, upon hearing them, cast the book into the fire. But Jeremiah just dictated again all the same words into a second book and then added a bunch more. (See Jeremiah 36.) If, though, the moment is forgotten, the revelation is lost. In 2006 I received a revelation form the Holy Ghost that I considered important, and I suspected I would forget all about it, so I took whatever notebook was at hand and recorded it. That notebook was stashed away and, sure enough, I ended up forgetting all about the revelation. In the past year I found the notebook and, what to my surprise!, a revelation was written that I had recorded in 2006. My memory of those days came back, but I couldn’t remember the revelatory instant any longer. In other words, I could no longer extract the information, but had to rely upon what I had written in that notebook, which I knew to be accurate.

    The labels I use

    I have ever called whatever the Holy Ghost has said to me a “revelation.” Sometimes, though, the communication is a commandment. When I was 18, for example, the Spirit commanded me to change my place of residence, which, of course, I did. Sometimes the communication is just knowledge, something I wasn’t aware of. A couple of months ago I received one of those. Sometimes the communication is a prophecy of the future. The revelation I recorded back in 2006 was a conditional prophecy. The dual prophecies I mentioned in the previous post were unconditional prophecies. These might be labeled revelatory commandments, revelatory knowledge, and revelatory prophecies. I’ve always just lumped them all together and called them “revelations.” In my mind, my revelations have always been of greater importance than my prophecies or any other type of manifestation. I suppose this is because they are given in the voice of the Spirit, and not in my voice. For example, unless it is a revelatory prophecy, all my prophetic utterances have been me perceiving the future by the power of the Holy Ghost, and then me uttering my prophetic perceptions. All such manifestations are always in my own voice and thoughts. I first began prophesying at age 9 and then it ceased, but recommenced after age 14 during my teenage years. The first time I perceived the future as a teen I wavered and remained unsure about it ever afterward. I used to call it “an idea” or “a thought,” the origin of which I could not determine. I knew it was not the voice of the Spirit speaking to me. Of that I was sure. So it wasn’t a revelation. It was my own thought, sure enough, but it was decidedly different than any of my other thoughts. I kept it on my “mental shelf,” wondering whether it was a prophecy or not for years afterward. It was not until I became experienced in prophetic perceptions that I was able to re-visit this “thought” and finally make a determination: “Oh, yeah, that was a prophecy alright!” So, in my experience, a prophecy, given by the spirit of prophecy, is a decidedly different experience than a prophetic revelation, or a revelatory prophecy, which is given by the spirit of revelation. Revelation, in my estimation, is a greater gift than prophecy. Although I have had many revelations, I have had a great deal more prophecies. In my earlier years I had more revelations than prophecies, whereas in my later years I have had more prophecies than revelations. I’m not sure why that is, but it has allowed me to become proficient in both.

    The point to all of this

    Because I differentiate between these many manifestations, and because revelation is always a bigger deal than anything else, if I ever say, “I have received a new revelation from the Lord,” people ought to take notice, but they never do. They see no difference between any of these manifestations. It’s all just made-up nonsense to them. But to those who believe my words (and there are a few) it is usually possible to determine, from the labels that I use, whether my words are taken from a revelation received by me, or given by prophecy, or by discernment of spirits, or word of knowledge and wisdom, or just my own man-made idea and thoughts. And if it’s not possible, then just ask for clarification and I’ll tell you.

  11. According to your revelation, those who left the Church of King Noah would be told to shut their mouths and repent (?) (repent of what exactly? The instinct to reject their free agency and not stay in the place where their spirit cannot tolerate the false prophets?)

    First, this revelation was received in 2014. King Noah’s time was about 160–150 B.C. The timing is wholly different.

    Second, the principle given is that one must first be sent before criticizing the church leadership:

    Behold! Thus saith the Lord:

    Thou shalt shut thy mouth, for none of my saints shall be authorized to speak against the leaders of my church, to criticize and correct them publicly, unless I send them. But the time is not yet, therefore, thou shalt heed these words and hold thy tongue.

    Abinadi was sent, and they rejected his words, all except Alma. Who in our day has been sent? No one has been sent. I desired to open my mouth but was shut down by the Lord, and was told that everyone else was shut down, too. So, no one has been sent and anyone making such a claim is doing so falsely.

    You point to the Book of Mormon as the principle, and point to king Noah’s time, but that is the wrong time to look at. You must look at Mormon’s time:

    And I did endeavor to preach unto this people, but my mouth was shut, and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them (Mormon 1:16)

    I have tried to be subtle in my teachings on this blog, as everyone in person says I’m much too blunt and brutally truthful when I preach, so when I wrote the evil speaking post, I hoped people would get the hint, but I guess they didn’t understand.

    I wrote in that post:

    For these reasons, no one has any authority to silence a saint. The authority of a saint supersedes the authority of any priesthood office. And if a saint speaks out against your hypocrisy, Amen to your priesthood. And if anyone speaks out (evilly) against a saint (the Lord’s anointed), they’d be better off drowning themselves in the depth of the sea. Nothing pisses off the Lord more than people who bother His saints.

    The commandment to refrain from speaking evil of the Lord’s anointed is a true principle, but only encompasses spreading lies about the saints of God. (Although we are also commanded to not speak evil of anyone else, which encompasses the whole human race.) However, this commandment does not muzzle the saints, who are not prohibited from saying the truth about someone who is acting hypocritically, even if they are leaders of the Lord’s church. Thus, the Lord’s admonition to first take the beam out of our eyes before we go around telling people that they have a mote in their own eyes does not apply to saints, because they have neither beams nor motes in their eyes.

    The teachings in this post are true, but not the entire picture. When I wrote, “no one has any authority to silence a saint,” I referred to mortal men. There is one Person who has the right to muzzle His saints, and that is the Lord.

    Saints are, above all, obedient to God

    If God says to His saints, “Go and preach repentance to that people, who will likely end up killing you,” they obediently go and preach and submit to His will until they are killed. If God says, “Do not preach to these wicked people,” they dutifully shut their mouths. Those who aren’t saints are disobedient to the word of the Lord. So, they get offended and speak out, without any authorization from the Lord.

    Third, there was no “Church of King Noah.” Alma is the guy that first established the church of Christ among the people.

    Fourth, it is incorrect to equate the fully apostate state of king Noah and his people to the current state of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. King Noah and his people wanted Abinadi dead, and they eventually succeeded in killing him. Later, king Noah tried to kill Alma, and still later, his army was sent to kill the people of Alma. Exactly when did the LDS Church leadership start trying to kill people? Those crying, “Apostasy!” in our day do not know what they are saying. This church is not like king Noah’s people. Sorry, but that is a faulty comparison.

    Fifth, Alma and his people did not publicly denounce and preach against king Noah, nor against his priests. They did not go about publicly like Abinadi did, and prophesy and preach repentance. Alma’s ministry was in private, because to reveal himself was a death sentence. He and his people repented of their sins, in conformity to Abinadi’s words, but had to remain hidden, otherwise they’d face death. These were altogether different circumstances than what we see today, yet even here we see that Alma was not sent, like Abinadi was, but he merely “shut his mouth and repented” of his sins, privately teaching others to do the same, just as you said.

    Are you telling me that those who sauntered off to the wilderness after Alma, that darn apostate who didn’t shut his mouth and respect the leadership, would be condemned for this spirit-infused desire?

    Ah, but notice the times, which you either missed, or just want to conveniently cover up and forget: When there was a prophet sent, then it was acceptable to speak up, and Abinadi was sent, and Alma spoke up in his defense. But when there was no more prophet sent, (for Abinadi was dead), Alma had to shut his mouth and preach only in private. This principle, then, fully conforms to this revelation that you say is false.

    As for those who left with Alma, again, this was a fully apostate group (king Noah and people), and when the Lord leads you away from such groups, you go. But no one is led by the Lord away from the body of the church today, except for temporary sabbaticals. And these are only done on an individual basis, for a time, and not ever as a group.

    Now, this false “spirit of departure,” in which people say they are “called out of the church,” is not of God, and all those who manifest it almost always point to king Noah and Alma as their scriptural precedence. But again, this comparison is completely false. King Noah and group were murderous, the LDS church is not. But the devil doesn’t care about that. “Let’s make a mountain out of a molehill!” says old scratch in glee. There is a true spirit of departure, and a true spirit of crying repentance to apostate leaders, but these things are not yet. This is the very reason why I am even releasing this revelation and publishing it on this blog, to combat this false spirit.

    Now, you may say, “Doesn’t sit right with me,” all you want, but if you ask God to confirm the truth of this revelation to you, the Holy Ghost will manifest to you that it is, indeed, true. Then you can toss the manifestation into the garbage all you want, to your condemnation. I say this because it is my experience that people who have their minds fixed will remain fixed regardless of what the Holy Ghost says. To give an example, a few years back I told someone a truth which they did not believe, so I said, “Fine. Do this, then. Go ask God to tell you the truth of my words and then you’ll see I speak the truth.” That person wanted to prove me wrong, so they went and asked alone, and lo and behold!, the Holy Ghost manifested and said that I spoke the truth. So, what was the result? That person didn’t care and tossed the revelation that was received into the garbage, and continued to disbelieve the teaching anyway.

    There are many hard sayings in the gospel that won’t sit right with us. So what? What does it matter how hard the saying is? All that matters is that the sayings are true. Or, that should be all that matters.

    Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? (John 6:60)

    Lastly,

    To let my children be indoctrinated to follow the profit, whilst the poor and widows are grinded upon, instead of JESUS as Nephi pointed out clearly that they wrote of and taught about and talked about, would be to clearly disobey the Spirit of God, should one feel it, saying ‘time to leave Babylon!’

    I have never taught people that they should let their children be indoctrinated in the “follow the prophet” mantra, nor to let the poor and widows be grinded upon, nor not to follow Jesus. And surely we should leave spiritual Babylon immediately, but the church is not the physical manifestation of Babylon, nor even its spiritual manifestation. And, you will notice that only at the very end, just before Babylon is plagued and destroyed, do the saints get told to leave her:

    And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Revelation 18:4)

    So, this is a false spirit of premature departure sent by the devil to scatter the saints all over the place, that he might more easily destroy them.

  12. Your post implies that the Church has false prophets. We have heard many times, “the Lord will not let the prophet lead us astray.” There will be false prophets outside the Church, but not in the Church.

    Elder Oaks:

    “we cannot communicate reliably through the direct, personal line if we are disobedient to or out of harmony with the priesthood line. The Lord has declared that “the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness” (D&C 121:36). Unfortunately, it is common for persons who are violating God’s commandments or disobedient to the counsel of their priesthood leaders to declare that God has revealed to them that they are excused from obeying some commandment or from following some counsel. Such persons may be receiving revelation or inspiration, but it is not from the source they suppose. The devil is the father of lies, and he is ever anxious to frustrate the work of God by his clever imitations.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/two-lines-of-communication?lang=eng

    End of discussion. Those who think they get better answers than the leaders are being deceived.

  13. We have heard many times, “the Lord will not let the prophet lead us astray.”

    We may have heard it many times, but where in the scriptures can you show me that that it says it?

  14. Of course no lay member has the power & authority to discharge any leader from their post. But is it NOT incumbent upon “EVERY” man to “WARN” his neighbor of these inconsistencies ? We are OBLIGATED to WARN our fellow members, NOT through criticizing our leaders in a critical satanic fashion of “Pointing the finger of Blame” in tattle tale fashion, but rather WARN each other by stating the facts as the truth of them become manifest to our awareness.

    If you as a child of your parents, discovered plans of your parents to kill and discard all of their children, would you then decline to warn your siblings because of your parents authority over you establishing their right to continue this plan without meeting any Warning to your siblings through you ?

    I would suggest that you would make yourself COMPLICATE in their endeavor by remaining silent.

    Try reorienting your question to God to match ALL of the requirements necessary NOT to allow the leadership’s misdirection and inconsistencies to take the membership to the point of the Lord having to step in, just as a measure of being PREPARED for this event and it not taking us by surprise.

    Why should church leadership be afforded any more of a protective shield for their wrong doings as compared to the leadership of our nation under the rules of the Constitution ?

    Does not the D&C, under the rules of court disciplinary action to include the prophet and Apostles themselves, ALSO provide the measure by which the members are EXPECTED to hold leadership to the standards set forth by God ?

    We do not hold the AUTHORITY as lay members to lay off the prophet, just as US citizens do not hold Authority to lay off a President. Each of those respective authorities comes form the Quorum of the Twelve & the Congress, to act upon INFORMATION & CHARGES posed by WHOM ?…Answer …. By ANY MAN speaking the TRUTH. “ALL MEN” are EXPECTED by God to WARN of these TRUTHS so as not to become COMPLICATE in the evil design and miscarriages of leadership or general membership out to bear FALSE WITNESS against God’s Truth.

    If the TRUTH IS, they ARE doing things contrary to the will of God, we are OBLIGATED to speak up, or become complicate to NOT WARNING our neighbors. You can warn your neighbor of these things by not criticizing leaders as only Satan would do, but rather simply state the FACTS concerning the WARNINGS we are charged by God to GIVE.

    Your stance is a copout to avoid unjust criticism & reprocussions from an unjust leadership, in order to avoid losing your membership in an organization which has been hi-jacked and lead it’s members astray.

    Your fear of man overrides your fear of God with regard to having suffer persecution for standing up for the TRUTH once God reveals it to you and PROPERLY WARNING your neighbor (Fellow members).

    Was Jesus & John the Baptist & Judas wrong for pointing out the untruths & inconsistencies of the men in charge of THEIR time.

    The difference between Judas and Jesus & John, was that Judas took matters into his OWN HANDS, while Jesus and John referred to acknowledging & doing the will of their Father. But did Judas have the right & OBLIGATION to state the very same complaints that Jesus & John had concerning the status quo ? Of COURSE he did. He just took it one step too far.

    If you remain silent with regard to identifying false traits and doings among our leaders, as Jesus & John did just the OPPOSITE of that, then you become their silent FACILLITATOR and leave your brothers & sisters EXPOSED to their evil without “WARNING” them.

    Are you in a position to pass judgment ? No ! Are you in a position to IDENTIFY & PROCLAIM these things to your fellow members and even leaders if you prefer doing that as Jesus and John did in order to WARN members of what they are up against ?

    You should rethink this question and go back to the Lord for a more COMPLETE answer to a RETHOUGT OUT question.

    I think the Lord merely answered you according to the biased & fearful approach you took to ASKING this question of Him. He gave you the answer you were “LOOKING” for, just like the Lord eventually gave Joseph Smith the answer he was “Looking” for, when questioning the Lord with regard to allowing Martin Harris to take the Plates to show his wife. Or the answer the Lord gave to Israel when they kept posing the desire for a King. They DID get the answer they WANTED but NOT the answer they NEEDED. But the answers DID all come form the LORD.

  15. I want to make a comment about Justin’s last comment about “The Lord not allowing a prophet to lead us astray”.

    First I will tell you where that proclamation originated. It originated with Wilford Woodriff staing this as a condition & pretext to his manifest on Plural Marriage. Was that manifesto a proclamation of God or was it the proclamation of that prophet. God told Jospeh to “NEVER” recent the doctrine of Plural Marriage once it had been established. Had God changed his mind or did Wilford change God’s mind FOR God.

    That entire proclamation came about as various pressures from the federal government came to bear on the Lord’s People to STOP Plural Marriage “Or Else” !

    If that Proclamation was truly from God FORBIDDING Plural Marriage, then why did it CONTINUE until they were busted again at a later time and it finally ended ?

    Look….The statement that God would not allow a prophet to lead us astray is a TRUE statement with a CAVEOT implied in it’s logical meaning. The caveot being that as LONG as the People & Leaders remain FAITHFUL to GOD and NOT unto their own desires.

    Did God ALLOW David and Solomon and succeeding leaders to lead their people astray ? I think the answer to that is literally…HELL YES He did, because it was what they people were ASKING for through their OWN disobedience to God. Evil people BEGAT evil leadership. You can not SEPARATE those two realities.

    Now will God FOREVER allow a false prophet to lead his people astray ? The answer to that is HELL NO He won’t . Even IF God’s People have become corrupt and DESERVE what we have gotten in our Broken & False leadership today, God will eventually make the necessary adjustments for HIS OWN Sake as opposed to our UNWORTHY SAKES.

    By our COLLECTIVE SILENCE we have COLLECTIVELY become unworthy to have anything BUT Bad & False Leadership that we have FACILLITAED with Our SILENCE and have FAILED to point this out and WARN our neighbors !

    You adopt the Politically Correct stance to calling out Truth for what it IS and BECOME PART of the UNDESERVING status quo.

    Damn Right they CAN & WILL lead us astray if that is what the TRUTH REVEALS to ANY man.

    Tip toeing around HARD TRUTH is akin to kissing the asses of Pharasees, which John nor Jesus NEVER did. They are Our EXAMPLES of Valliant Men we NEED to BECOME, instead of taking the Politically Correct SAFER path to insure we do not OFFEND the wicked who God EXPECTS US to CALL OUT, and then USE the measure God has given to us to deal with them.

    If we FAIL at this, it is because we have WAITED upon the LORD to do what He gave US to do and He FINALLY must step in for the sake of HIS COVENENT with Abraham, rather than to step in for the sake of those who are TOO WEAK to stand up for truth no matter WHAT the consequences.

    The ONLY reason the Lord MUST step in for us is because He has to become our BABY SITTER for our FAILING to DO what we have been CHARGED to do….Police our own ranks according to the provisions for this in the D&C under the rule of courts and disciplinary action against ANY Position in the church.

    Their are some of us who UNDERSTAND this condition & RESPONSISBLITY we have been COMMANDED to do and have suffered the rath of UNJUST Leadership. But ONLY for a TIME….

    Have, Can &WILL, adership in our day lead us astray and God ALLOW this for a TIME ? He’s ALREAY DONE THIS ! READ THE SCRITPURES pertaining to Our Day as told by prophets of old and the SURE EVIDENCE of designed WICKEDNESS that fills ALL ranks in a church STEEPED in DEEP APOSTASY !

  16. Come on people….Spiritually get yourselves a Pair Of BALLS ! It’s not that we DON”T have God’s Right, Authority & Responsibily to PROPERLY deal with these idiots under the provisions GIVEN to ALL of us in the D&C pertaining to Courts and Disiplinary action that can be taken against ANY member of the church.

    But as a people, we have RENEGGED on that Charge by God and are waiting for HIM to do what we REFUSE to do and He eventually WILL do.

    The Man and those the Lord will eventually place in charge of this “Cleansing”, will come from the ranks of those who have had the Spiritual Balls to call a Spade & Spade & WARN our neighbors DESPITE the obvious consequences that we ACCEPT as PART of the job to DO GOD’S WILL and STAND FOR TRUTH.

    To HELL with Spiritual Political Correctness !!!!!!! GROW UP & BE REAL MEN OF GOD ( LEVITES) and not the tip toening cowards of political correctness to protect yourselves from the persecution of unjust leadership of ANY rank.

  17. My prayer is for God to eventually DAMN those of ANY rank in the church who would exact unjust punishment upon the more righteous, or to rob tithes from God and the poor who donate those tithes or fail to take us to Zion. The Lord in Malachi seems to AGREE with this.

    In the mean time, You AND I are OBLIGATED By God & TRUTH, to EXPOSE these things and wait upon the Lord for His Decisive Action to turn this mess AROUND & be WILLING to SUFFER it’s consequences….Just as Jesus & John and ALL good and TRUE Prophets have done.

    Why do you COWER before Pharaoh and His People ? Are You a Moses, or a Valiant Levite, or are you the run of the mill frightened Israelite who hides behind EXCUSES for not roughing the feathers of the status quo for the sake of ONESELF, rather than for GOD & the sake of HIS TRUTH ?

    It’s natural & ok to be afraid. But we MUST become like Moses and the Levites became when God CHALLENGED them to be BRAVE and do what is RIGHT.

    If all Moses did was to voice his concerns about the lack of faith and faults of his people, rather than taking the bold steps to directly confront to leaders responsible for their inability to progress, what would have become of Israel ?

    What has become of Israel today as we have NOT done what Moses or the Levites would have done in our same circumstances ? This is WHY Moses & the First Exodus are COMPARED to our coming Second Exodus. We must eventually follow a New Moses out of Babylon, because COLLECTIVELY, we have FAILED to CORRECT ourselves and Our LEADERSHIP ( Pharaoh & His Court of Majicians).

    I’m not saying to physically expunge these evil leaders from their positions of power. We have MISSED that opportunity because of our own sins and silence. The Lord in His porovisions made for this in the D&C were IGNORED.

    The Lord and His New Moses must perform this task. But we are SURE AS HEAEN expected to call a spade a spade and “WARN” our neighbors. ( Our fellow Brothers & Sisters EXPOSED to their MajicK Spells).

  18. I sure hope Heavenly Father acts very soon to call His Special Agent of Truth & Boldness. I don’t mind speaking the truth as it has been revealed to me concerning these hard things and have suffered it’s consequences which have made my life a living Hell, but WORTH having kept my Spiritual INTEGRITY in FULL TACT, by VOICING these Warnings to ALL I come in contact with.

    But it sure will be nice to someday stand beside the man God will call to END this persecution & suffering. If I had to….I would do it ALL AGAIN for TRUTH’S SAKE. Truth is what GOD is, & I want to be like HIM. Don’t You ?

  19. Brighamyoung65… You have much to learn about not allowing your sense of unwavering loyalty to MEN, who “Call” themselves Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, but never actually DO THAT, override the bare facts that stare us in the face concerning the Great Apostasy that has entered every level of this church.

    The reason you can not see this is because your head is in the sand of Spiritual Blindness due to an OVER RATED sense of BLIND LOYALTY to Men, rather than the Lord and His Obvious TRUTH concerning these things.

    Brother, I am WARNING you to get your head OUT of that sand hole of having come to worship Men over God.

    Who the Hell cares WHAT Elder Oaks has to say if he is ONE of these deviant leaders ? ANYONE can TWIST the truth to make his point, like any “good” lawyer would do by ALIEVIATING certain Prophetic FACTS.

    You must observe ALL FACTS AVAILABLE to accurately ascertain the truth without bias toward those who say they would NEVER lead us astray. That statement itself should be a clear warning sign of their arrogance to ASSUME, they as MEN, do not have the CAPACITY for doing that.

    What the hell kind of statement is that ? It implies they view themselves as ALREADY BEING GOD’S without the ability or inclination to deceive us for their own selfish purposes, like making BIG INCOME BUCKS off the Lord’s Tithes, as only one example of MANY inconsistencies these men cause the members to swallow like sweet candy, DESIPITE what GOD would think of all that. Are you that BLIND ? It sure appears that way.

    But Truth is something revealed by the FACTS that exist, which you REFUSE to OBSERVE & STUDY & PRAY over, without immediately dismissing them as being garbage coming from the mouths of those NOT loyal to men, but rather Loyal to God & TRUTH.

    I hope for your sake you eventually come to realize what a HUGE mistake you are making to BLINDLY ACKNOWLEGING False Leaders and the LIES and half truths they promote. Just take a good long look at the evidence that is plainly available to those earnestly seeking the truth. It does hurt to learn these things but sometimes the Truth HURTS.

    I have no personal beef with these men. I am not their judge. But I AM required & EXPECTED by God to Observe & Judge their ACTIONS. Elsewise I may fall VCITIM to the Designs & Unjust Desires of MEN, to INCLUDE False prophets and leaders AMONG us.

    My friend, the statement you made concerning false prophets ONLY coming from those OUTSIDE of this church is TOTALLY INCONSISTENT with patterns of Israel’s Past & Present when observing the FACTS of Decline and Apostasy among the Lord’s people of EVERY Dispensation of time, to include the recent time of Our Pioneering Fore Fathers of the Restoration, to include the falling away of HALF it’s original leaders.

    Where the HELL is your COMMON SENSE of simple observation of RECORDED ANCIENT & RECENT CHURCH HISTORY ? You have DENIED & REDIFINED the simple Truth to fit your paradigm of hearing only what you WANT to hear, rather than what you NEED to hear with regard to what the prophets of old and Joseph revealed to us about out current Prophets of today.

    Why do you THINK, if you are capable of doing that without being offended by the truth, that these current leaders would proclaim THEIR counsel & revelations to OUTRANK & NULIFY the revelations and counsel of ancient Prophets ?

    What kind of BS is THAT ? Apparently it is NOT BS to you. But I can ASSURE you that it IS BS to the Lord who FIRMLY ESTABLISHED those ancient Prophets as His TRUE Prophets, Seers and Revelators who ACTUALLY PROPHESIED of our day to come, in which THEY Exclaim that the Lord has CLOSED the eyes of our present day so call prophets, who DO NOT Prophesy, but rather make OBVIOUS INOCUOUS statements and call that Prophecy.

    Say for instance….Take a GOOD LOOK at the NON Prophetic statements made by Gordon B. Hinckley during the conference days after 911 occurred. Buddy, that should give you SOME CLUE as to the TRUTH behind ancient Prophets proclaiming our current prophets do not POCESS the ABILITY to predict the future as a “SEER” CAN do….Like Isaiah, Jeremiah, or ANY TRUE Prophet can do.

    Our leaders state & REPEAT OBVIOUS FACTS, rather than WARNING or SCHOOLING us on SPECIFIC hazards that NOW lay in our path more than any time in history.

    Why didn’t President Hinckley WARN us of the coming of 911 and it’s implications and what we should do to AVOID what our government is doing to DESTROY us, rather than spewing his Prophetic OPINION in the spring conference that preceded the 911 event, that we are now so fortunate to live in a world of “RELATIVE PEACE” according to his words of wisdom ?

    Seems like quite the turn around of circumstances that followed six short months later, would you agree ?

    Why did he NOT FORESEE the Great Tsunami of Idoniesia, which could have spared the lives of many innocent Saints, had he given them sufficient WARNING as Prophets DO, when IMPENDING DANGER is approaching in ANY fashion to the Lord’s People ?

    Brother, your defense of these fraudulent leaders & blind loyalty to their demands that you trust them as you would trust God, WITHOUT questioning their Actions, is akin to IDOL WORSHIP OF MEN, & you DESREVE what you get for listening to them if you fail to REPENT of this Worship of Our Leaders and an Organization that was designed to FACILLITATE our growing closer to GOD, rather than Worshiping that Organization itself & it’s leaders, rather than God, which now has WAY TOO MANY INEFFECTIVE programs which MIRRORS the many unnecessary laws of Congress which do NOTHING to promote True Eternal Progression toward God & Zion, but rather ENTANGLES us in the ENDLESS machinations of evil & designing men out for their own purposes in this life, and PROTECT that cause through encouraging BLIND TRUST & LOYATY to THEMSELVES & their Half Baked Truths, and sometimes OUT RIGHT LIES, you SWALLOW like Sweet Candy.

    Keep sucking on that candy and you are one day going to REGRET having swallowed so much Spiritual JUNK FOOD from these men.

    It is OBVIOUS that you PICK & CHOOSE what you read from the scriptures and ONLY digest what is GIVEN to you by these men. Good Luck with that approach….

  20. Zac
    Much angst in you. Wasn’t the scriptures written by MORTAL men? Wasn’t the entire account of Jesus Christ given to us by His servants, MORTAL men?

    It would be a waste of everyone’s time for me to respond to your rambling.

    I will answer you with a famous story that you may or may not be aware of.

    Hiram Page thought he had a seer stone. He received great revelations from it. Some of the member believed the revelations.

    The Lord came to Joseph Smith and told Joseph to assign Oliver Cowdery to go and tell Hiram the stone was of the Devil and the revelations false.

    The Lord came to His authorized servant and gave a priesthood assignment to MORTAL men. The Lord did not go to Hiram directly, no he used MORTAL men to deliver His message.

    No one in the Church teaches us to worship men. Following prophetic counsel is what the Lord’s people have done since the world began.

    I wonder if you lived back in the days of Moses if you would have stayed in Egypt, or perhaps you would have tried to find your own way around the Red Sea?

  21. brighamyoung65,

    Your post implies that the Church has false prophets. We have heard many times, “the Lord will not let the prophet lead us astray.” There will be false prophets outside the Church, but not in the Church.

    I’m not sure where you are getting that idea. The post explicitly states that the church leadership do not consist of false prophets:

    I’ll close by using this chapter of Jeremiah as my example, which speaks on false prophets. For those who end up criticizing the leadership, typically do so because of a belief that they are false prophets. In truth, they are not false prophets, for they don’t prophesy anything, true or false. They are merely priests and teachers that like to quote each other a lot:

  22. zac,

    Your stance is a copout to avoid unjust criticism & reprocussions from an unjust leadership, in order to avoid losing your membership in an organization which has been hi-jacked and lead it’s members astray.

    Your fear of man overrides your fear of God with regard to having suffer persecution for standing up for the TRUTH once God reveals it to you and PROPERLY WARNING your neighbor (Fellow members).

    and

    You should rethink this question and go back to the Lord for a more COMPLETE answer to a RETHOUGT OUT question.

    I think the Lord merely answered you according to the biased & fearful approach you took to ASKING this question of Him. He gave you the answer you were “LOOKING” for, just like the Lord eventually gave Joseph Smith the answer he was “Looking” for, when questioning the Lord with regard to allowing Martin Harris to take the Plates to show his wife. Or the answer the Lord gave to Israel when they kept posing the desire for a King. They DID get the answer they WANTED but NOT the answer they NEEDED. But the answers DID all come form the LORD.

    I find all this quite amusing. brighamyoung65 condemns me because the “post implies that the Church has false prophets.” And he says that there will be no such things in this church. You condemn me because the post is “a copout to avoid unjust criticism & repercussions from an unjust leadership, in order to avoid losing your membership in an organization which has been hi-jacked and lead it’s members astray.”

    Lol. I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t. The blog has now officially entered the world of my daily reality. LMAO.

  23. and not the tip toeing cowards of political correctness to protect yourselves from the persecution of unjust leadership of ANY rank.

    Again, I’m having the time of my life reading this stuff. No one has EVER called me politically correct. (Though I was once called a coward by a man, who afterward was not willing to back up his challenge with his fists. So, it was he, ironically, who ended up being shown as the coward…)

  24. zac,

    Okay, so let me again set the record straight. Regarding this:

    I think the Lord merely answered you according to the biased & fearful approach you took to ASKING this question of Him. He gave you the answer you were “LOOKING” for

    The answer I was looking for was PERMISSION TO OPEN MY MOUTH. So, this WAS NOT the answer I was looking for. Nevertheless, as I ALWAYS get what I ask the Lord for, He did not shut me down forever:

    Behold! Thus saith the Lord:

    Thou shalt shut thy mouth, for none of my saints shall be authorized to speak against the leaders of my church, to criticize and correct them publicly, unless I send them. But the time is not yet, therefore, thou shalt heed these words and hold thy tongue.

    So, I don’t have permission to speak up, for the present moment only. But at some future time, I will be sent, for the Lord never withholds from me what I ask from Him, either bestowing upon me the thing in the very moment, or giving me a promise of the thing, to be bestowed at a future time.

    Now, you can hem and haw at this revelation all you want, but it means that you don’t have permission to speak up, either, unless you are sent, but you haven’t been sent, for no one at present has been sent. So, go ahead and ask God to manifest the truth of this revelation to you by the power of the Holy Ghost, and you will see that everyone has been shut down at this time.

  25. I like your response. I’ll take your advice and see what I come up with.

  26. LDS Anarchist

    I was referring to the end of your post when you wrote:

    “Okay, so the point is that although there are and will be false pastors, prophets and priests that scatter the Lord’s people, preach lies and so forth, it ain’t up to you or me to fix this.”

  27. you could always try actually voting instead of just talking a lot. this is the only church you’re allowed to vote in after all.

    PS that’s a total lie about the 132 being burned up. Emma denied it until the day she died, she never admitted to even seeing the document, and had she truly been so mad at Hyrum that she’d burn up a purported revelation, you can bet she wouldn’t name her son after him a few months later.

  28. its funny to me that you’re so sure that what god told you is applicable to all. i know god told you not to go and challenge the leadership, but i am not inclined to believe he’s telling you everything he’s got going on, and that he’s not calling anyone to call his church to repentance. quite the opposite, I’m pretty sure that there are millions of people called to preach nothing but repentance unto this people. I dont believe your revelation since it contradicts former revelations.

  29. its funny to me that you’re so sure that what god told you is applicable to all. i know god told you not to go and challenge the leadership, but i am not inclined to believe he’s telling you everything he’s got going on, and that he’s not calling anyone to call his church to repentance. quite the opposite, I’m pretty sure that there are millions of people called to preach nothing but repentance unto this people. I dont believe your revelation since it contradicts former revelations.

    It never ceases to amaze me how people simply decide to disbelieve my revelations when I disclose them, instead of asking God as the scriptures direct and getting a knowledge of them from the Holy Ghost.

    Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark. (2 Nephi 32:4)

    Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—

    If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

    (1 Nephi 15:11)

    There are plenty of individuals calling the people to repentance, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, but this revelation isn’t talking of the people, but of the leadership. Now, I will do yet another extraction of the revelation, pulling out more information and putting it, yet again, in the words of the Lord, so that there can be no mistake, since if I put the revelation in my words, as I have been doing so, you simply don’t and won’t believe me. So, here is the fifth translation, and it is about as explicit and plain as can be, so go ask your God, if you want, to manifest its truth to you, and if you do ask, in faith, you will then see that this fifth version, as well as the 1st through 4th versions, are all true and part of the revelation I received.

    Or, conversely, don’t ask, and continue to remain in your unbelief.

    A 5th translation of this revelation

    Behold! Thus saith the Lord:

    Thou shalt shut thy mouth, for none of my saints shall be authorized to speak against the leaders of my church, to criticize and correct them publicly, unless I send them. And thou shalt be sent, but the time is not yet, neither for thee, nor for any others, therefore, thou shalt heed these words and hold thy tongue.

  30. Thank you for this! I’ve been reading some of your blog and I appreciate your writings. I’m especially glad for this one. I was one who was, for a long time, led by a false prophet to the point of almost being excommunicated from the Church. Since then, I have struggled to re-indoctrinate myself back to the Church and be loosed from a false spirit. It is a miracle that I stayed with the Church. After being led astray for so long, I’ve questioned my own ability to discern and receive revelation. It crushed me.

    I suppose I’m near a pivotal point in my life where I’m sick and tired of being deceived. Having had pivotal changes of heart in my life, I’ve yet to have the mighty change of heart–the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

    I will say, though, that I did speak out against that false prophet–by name. I even blogged about my experience. Forgive me, because I can be dense; but do you think that speaking out against false prophets outside the Church is wrong as well?

  31. Bryan,

    do you think that speaking out against false prophets outside the Church is wrong as well?

    Saints are free to speak out against any falsehood that they see, unless commanded by the Lord not to. Also, the saints have been commanded to invite all to come to Christ and to warn our neighbors from their sins. But, as far as saying “that guy is a false prophet,” I, personally, would not say that unless I had a witness of the Holy Ghost to the same. In other words, if I look at someone, and what he or she says doesn’t jive with the scriptures or with my own revelations (and this happens a lot), but I don’t have any witness from the Holy Ghost that that person is a false prophet, I will keep my mouth shut, except to say that that person’s teachings are in conflict with what the Holy Ghost told me.

    To use a modern example: Denver Snuffer. I have yet to make any statement, (that I know of,) that Denver has or has not seen what he claims to have seen, or to have received the communications that he claims to have received. But I have corrected, or sought to correct, Denver on his own blog on at least one occasion. And I have continually affirmed that the keys of the priesthood are still in this church, according to my understanding. I have cited Denver when I have read words of his that I felt were truthful, but there have also been words of his that I have read which were, according to my understanding, in error. But then, I can say this of just about everyone I’ve ever met, including myself. So, the Holy Ghost hasn’t manifested to me that he is a true or a false prophet. There is only silence. (Of course, I haven’t asked about it, either.) But then, I felt no need to ask because the Holy Ghost hasn’t pointed me in that direction, but directs me to another path. So, I cannot categorically state what Denver’s testimony is, true or false, and I have contented myself to leave it at that. I won’t label him, therefore, as a false prophet, nor as a true prophet, nor anything else, other than a man making claims. If, however, I did receive a witness of the Holy Ghost concerning him, then I would testify to the same, whatever that witness might be. So, I don’t feel qualified to call him, or anyone else making claims, this or that label, except to correct any errors in the doctrine they preach, as I perceive those errors, or to affirm any truths in their message, according to my understanding.

    So, if you have been inspired of the Holy Ghost to make such a declaration, then you ought to make it, but if you’ve received no witness of the Spirit concerning his false prophet status, then I would recommend that you merely keep your mouth shut. Doctrine, or points of doctrine, though, are open game. But labeling a man this or that, should probably not be done without express approval by the Holy Ghost.

  32. There are three things the lord has said to me when I’ve been in parels of false brethren .. “Hold your peace and be still”, ” steady the course” and this last one I literally heard his voice say to me , ” I give them their full agency for their full condemnation! ” when I heard that I said out loud Gottcha !

  33. LDSA, your revelation states

    none of my saints shall be authorized to speak against the leaders of my church, to criticize and correct them publicly

    Does the “publicly” qualifier applies only to the words “criticize and correct”? Or does it also encompass the word “speak”?
    In other words, does it forbid “speaking against” publicly or does it forbid “speaking against” both privately and publicly?
    Or is “to criticize and correct” merely a clarification for “to speak against”?

  34. Sorry, messed up formatting above, please fix.

  35. jackdale76, “to criticize and correct them publicly” defines “to speak against the leaders of my church.” In other words, “to criticize and correct them publicly” is what “to speak against the leaders of my church” is referring to.

  36. In other words, “to criticize and correct them publicly” is a clarifying clause, clarifying what “to speak against the leaders of my church” is referring to. “Clarifying clause,” I believe, is the grammatical term for that construction.

    (After I wrote the above comment, I realized I didn’t use the correct grammatical term.)


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