Should I produce a silver “tithing” coin?


Recently the silver bartering currency has again been on my mind.  Specifically, the production of a “tithing” coin, meaning a silver coin that latter-day saints could use to pay their tithing, instead of using U.S. currency.

Since the production of the first silver bartering currency coin (the 1/2 oz piece) in 2008, until now, I have taken an “if you build it they will come” approach.  I designed and ordered the creation of the first coin and then I essentially sat back to see what would happen.  Not much did happen.  Some people bought coins as part of their silver collection.   One guy promoted the currency by making a secular web site and developing a valuation model for it, but other than getting a few businesses to say they would receive it as payment, no coins circulated.  Also no one, other than myself, was paying tithing using the 1/2-oz coin.  And that was that.

The vision that I had in my head, remained there, mostly unfulfilled.    (Now, that’s okay,  since I like to operate by faith, so this stagnation hasn’t and doesn’t phase me one bit.)

Back in 2012, after pondering the currency and that promoter’s model, I got an idea about producing a very small tithing coin that I saw could jump start the currency and launch it into the stratosphere, allowing me to make all the dies and distribute and circulate the coins potentially around the entire world.  On October 2, 2012, I wrote a comment about it:

I have been tempted, of late, to create a 1/100th ounce silver coin, based on the above design, specifically for people to pay tithing, but I do not know that there would be enough interest in it to sustain the investment in the dies. A 1/100th ounce silver coin would cost around $400 for 100 coins. That is likely within the tithing budget of many LDS couples. (Because silver has gone up in price so much, the 1/2-oz coin is too expensive to purchase 100 coins. You’d need around $2000 for 100 coins.)

The 1/100th oz coin would be specifically for tithing for two reasons: #1, because it will be within the tithing budget of many people and, #2, because it would deal a financial blow to the corporate Church. This is because although you would pay around $4 per coin, the silver content in the coin would only be worth 30+ cents. So, although you would have fulfilled the law of tithing, thus keeping your good standing before the Lord, you would have simultaneously reduced the tithing revenue of the corporate church. How’s this for a campaign?:

Reduce the tithing revenue of the corporate Church by paying your tithing in silver!

(Using the 1/2-oz coin or any other silver coin won’t reduce the tithing revenue much, since the price of the coin so closely matches the value of the silver content.)

If anyone is interested in paying their tithing with such a 1/100th ounce coin, let me know via Wireclub and I will consider making the dies. If enough people decide to make the switch to silver for tithing payment, I will have to create the dies.

One last thing: for those who are currently paying tithing in silver or gold, assuming there is anyone out there doing that, I recommend that you only pay tithing in silver, not fast offerings. Pay your fast offerings in U.S. currency, since that goes to the poor in your ward, and they need all the value they can get.

It has been about a year and a half since I had that “temptation.” No one ended up contacting me about it on Wireclub and I let it drop, although it stayed in the back of my mind ever since.  If it was bona fide inspiration, given of the Spirit, and not just my own idea, there would come a time that it would be used, so I didn’t worry myself about it.

Recently I got that “tithing coin” feeling again, and never one to wait on impressions, I immediately contacted the mint to get the details concerning making a 1/100-oz coin. That’s when I found out that it can’t be done. That is, not for a 1/100th of an ounce coin. But it can be done for a 1/20th-oz coin.  (Now, don’t get me wrong.  I still have a plan in place to produce a 1/100-oz piece.  But that will have to wait.  The expedient coin is the 1/20 ounce.)

The mint has told me that the mold to the original dies for the 1/2-oz coin, which was made in the last quarter of 2008, is still good, and can still be used to make all the other sizes, so that everything matches up perfectly.  It also turns out that there may be some potential distributors who would be willing to invest in purchasing the coins in bulk (100 or more pieces), so that they can sell them to the public individually.

I’ve run the numbers and it looks like if you buy 100 or more pieces, it’ll cost (in total) about $4.25 a coin. So, a distributor would invest around $425. If the distributor turns around and sells them for $5.25 a piece (which is what I recommend), he or she gets a small profit and people get themselves a tithing coin, which potentially could fund the creation of all the dies of the entire currency, in both gold and silver and in both coin conditions and in all languages.

The reason why it could fund everything is that tithing is ten percent and Mormons typically pay it every time they get a paycheck. That is a very steady source of income which, to a potential distributor, reduces the risk of investing in the tithing coin considerably. After selling 425 coins, they would have covered their initial investment money completely, so that there would be no more risk involved, whatsoever.

In the case of a tithe-payer, let’s say he had a minimum wage job and his income was $320 a week, or $640 every two weeks, contributing $64 to tithing every paycheck. If he sent that money to the distributor, instead of directly to his bishop, he could purchase 12 of these 1/20-oz coins (at $5.25 a piece) and then he could give those coins to the church as tithing. As this is tithing, this routine would be repeated every paycheck for as long as he is employed. Multiply that by ten people, all earning minimum wage, and the distributor would sell his entire supply of coins every time within a two-week period. If the tithe-payer is not a minimum wage earner, but makes a lot more money, then the stash gets bought up that much more quickly, allowing die creation to proceed at a much faster rate.

Working after this fashion takes away the need for anyone (other than the distributor) to fork over enough money to purchase 100 coins. Any tithe-payer would be able to convert money into silver for as little as $5 and some change. If enough people started doing this, the church would begin to be starved* and the prophecies** concerning contributing to the church in silver would start to be fulfilled. Also, the bartering currency*** would take off in a big way.

———————–

* Although it is true that the wheat and tares must grow together until they are ripe, at some point there will be a real division and the tares will become angry with the wheat.  For all I know, one of the reasons for this anger will be because the wheat will engage in a monetary practice that does not contribute greatly to the church coffers, such as paying tithing in silver.

** For example:

And all moneys that you receive in your stewardships, by improving upon the properties which I have appointed unto you, in houses, or in lands, or in cattle, or in all things save it be the holy and sacred writings, which I have reserved unto myself for holy and sacred purposes, shall be cast into the treasury as fast as you receive moneys, by hundreds, or by fifties, or by twenties, or by tens, or by fives.

Or in other words, if any man among you obtain five dollars let him cast them into the treasury; or if he obtain ten, or twenty, or fifty, or an hundred, let him do likewise; and let not any among you say that it is his own; for it shall not be called his, nor any part of it. (D&C 104:68-70)

The revelations of Joseph Smith equate “moneys” to “dollars.”  A “dollar” at the time of these revelations was defined as a certain amount of silver.

***  There are also prophecies concerning the great and abominable church of the Gentiles, and the widespread use (and accumulation) of gold and silver:

And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church…And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.  And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.  And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.  (1 Ne. 13:4,6-8)

For all I know, it may be that this prophecy will be fulfilled only when gold and silver are once again used as the medium of exchange.  If so, the bartering currency may the catalyst for its eventual fulfillment.

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Recent blog trends

There have been, for quite some time now, on very many blogs, many negative posts concerning the Church’s use of tithing funds, such as its for-profit investments.  I am concerned about these posts, not that they are not giving accurate information, but that people as a result of this information have been choosing to stop paying tithing and thus are violating their covenants.

My hope is that people will continue to pay their tithing, to the church as they are supposed to, but if they are concerned about all these church expenditures, then starve the Church of money while still contributing silver, as I explained in the quote above. It may be that this reasoning will not be good enough for many latter-day saints who are upset at these things, but perhaps some will accept it.

“Upon my house shall it begin”

We all are familiar with the prophecy concerning the order of God’s judgments, (or at least we should be), namely that they are going to start with God’s people:

Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.   And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; first among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.  (D&C 112:24-26)

This is spoken concerning the judgments of God, but the same principle may also hold true concerning God’s blessings, that they will first be poured out upon the Lord’s people and then go forth to others.  What we latter-day saints do, or do not do, may end up having a world-wide effect, the world mirroring our actions, according to this principle.  Thus, if we start using silver to contribute church offerings or as currency, the world may indeed follow suit.

Checking to see if the time is right

Anyway, the purpose of this post is to find out if anyone wants this church monetary starvation and prophecy fulfillment to happen and so wants to pay their tithing in these silver coins.  If so, please leave a comment and I’ll contact you by email. If one says, “I can buy 10 coins every two weeks” and another says, “I can buy 15 coins on the 1st and the 15th of every month” and so on and so forth and it becomes obvious that a distributor could easily recoup his investment, it should be quite easy to find someone to become a distributor. In fact, if you yourself want to be a distributor, then leave a note about that and I’ll email you, too.

(Please keep in mind that the dies are not yet made for the 1/20th ounce coin. This is just a preliminary “blood pressure” check, to see if the time is right for the introduction of a “tithing” coin…)

Following the example of the corporate Church

Denver Snuffer once wrote the following:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a three-year system for collecting and spending tithes.

In the first year the funds are collected.

In the second year the funds remain invested while a budget is prepared for spending the tithing.

In the third year the funds are spent.

During the time when the funds are collected (first year), they are put to use in investments or deposits which yield a return. Similarly, while they remain invested during the second year, they also yield a return. When the third year arrives, and the funds are being spent on budgeted expenses, until the day they are spent they continue to collect interest or a return.

The amount of tithing collected in the first year is the amount designated “tithing” contributions. This is the amount that is budgeted and spent in the third year. All of the return on tithing yielded in the form of interest or return on investments is treated as “investment income” not tithing.

When the church spends “tithing” on temples, chapels, publications, etc. those monies are confined to the original amount collected as “tithing” only.

When the church spends “investment money” those include the interest, return, etc. collected on the tithing money during the three year cycle from when originally collected until the time it is spent. It also includes the returns on the returns as they accumulate over the years.

Therefore, when the church announces that a project (like the large reconstruction of downtown Salt Lake City) is not “tithing” but is “investment income” of the church, this is the distinction which is being made.

Now, taking this as a pattern, a network of tithing coin distributors can be easily set up.  From January to December, those who wish to distribute the coins to others would set aside their monthly or bi-weekly tithes until they have enough to purchase 100 coins (about $425.)  After they purchase 100 coins, (which is now their tithing), they would list themselves as a distributor, and invest the tithing coins by selling them to others at a $1 profit.  The profit ($1) from these coins is treated as “investment income,” not “tithing,” and is re-invested by buying more coins to distribute.  After 425 coins have been moved in this way, only “investment income” (and not “tithing”) could be used to purchase 100 coins to distribute.  The initial accumulated tithing (of 100 coins) and any other tithing converted into these silver coins afterward, would be considered the tithing to be payed by the distributor to the church at the end of the year (December), or whenever the distributor wanted to pay it during the year.  Also, at the end of the year, the stash of investment returns, in the form of silver coins, could also be tithed, meaning one-tenth of them could be given to the church.

Using this strategy protects the tithing a distributor has set aside at all times, because even if only part of the stash of 100 coins (or however many coins you’ve set aside as your tithing) are sold, and you don’t have enough money to buy another set of 100 coins, you can still pay your tithing, part of which will be in silver coins, and part of which will be in U.S. currency.

That’s all for now.  Let the comments roll.

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30 Comments

  1. If this took off and it starves the Corp. church what makes you think they wouldn’t put a stop to it and only except our checks.

  2. No one could stop it. Just get a tithing envelope and mail your silver coins in to the bishop. What is he going to do, send them back to you? If you think so, then don’t leave a return address. Perhaps then he’ll call you into his office and try to give you back the coins. If you don’t want to deal with that, then just don’t put your name on the slip and make it an anonymous offering. Then he can’t give it back and it’s his problem on what to do with the coins. (And I happen to know from experience in paying in silver and talking to someone in the bishopric who dealt with tithing, that they do pull their hair out over such a situation. The poor guy who told me about it never had a clue that the man he was talking to was the actual fellow who sent in those coins! Ha!) At the end of the year, during your tithing settlement, you can still answer, “Yes,” to the question about being a full tithe payer.

    Now, if you want to just mail your tithing in to Salt Lake City, here is how you do it (lifted from some other website) :

    There is a “back door” way of paying tithing that few know about. Are you aware that you can pay tithing “in kind” (even though it’s still just money or stock) directly to the Church? I have been doing this for years, and just smiling when the bishop looks at my big fat zero on the paper and asks I’m a full payer. I say yes. He isn’t allowed to ask any questions about it. If he does, he is going against the handbook, (and I think the law).

    Anyway, for those of you who are interested, whatever funds you want to transfer or send to the Church corporation directly, here’s what you do:

    Make a check or wire/transfer your money to:
    Corporation of the President
    15th Floor, Room 1521
    50 E N Temple
    Salt Lake City, UT 84150-3617

    If you want to do this anonymously, I would create a cashier’s check or something that doesn’t trace back to you. I’m pretty sure they will somehow mark your records if you write a check with your information on it. Their official web page instructs you to give them your record number and all that personal information. It is not required.

    What I have done is to set up a personal charity account, which is tax-free when I deposit there. When I want to donate, I tell them to transfer funds anonymously. I must include their EIN which is:

    EIN: 23-7300405

    This is only for US residents. I’m not sure what the procedure is outside of the states. I do it at the end of the year (or not). By the way, if you don’t include personal information, they won’t be able to give you a receipt that you can use for your tax write-off purposes (which is why I do it from an account…if I do it).

    So, just use the SLC address and mail your coins (anonymously, if you want) to it. There is nothing the church would be able to do about it.

  3. LDSAnarchist, I’m curious what you think about linking this project to the Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company. I’m working on reviving this organization as a complimentary currency system and I’m working on an online banking system for it.

  4. Anyone can use the coins in any way they want. In what manner did you have in mind to link the two up?

  5. zo-ma-rah,

    Doing a search online about that society, I came across many articles critical of it, but this one answered all of the criticisms quite nicely:

    The Kirtland Safety Society: The Myths, the Facts, and the Prophet’s Good Name

    Are you trying to revive it as a separate organization than the Deseret Currency Association, or are they one and the same? Btw, very impressive web site on that. You’ve obviously given it a lot of thought, time and effort on developing your model. One thing, though, that wasn’t clear, was how much silver backed the credits. Have you not figured out that part yet, or have I missed where it is written (or just misunderstood what I read)?

  6. the levites were not to have property the tith was to help them love there is no tithing at this time

  7. help them live

  8. Yes, the KSSABC would be separate from the Deseret Currency Association. The DCA is limited in scope to the Deseret Region. While the KSSABC would be available to the entire world.

    The way I have the Deseret Currency functioning, and I need to explain it better on the website, is that the silver backing is variable. The value of Deseret Units are linked to Federal Reserve Notes for the time being to make exchanging easier. Because the price of silver in Federal Reserve Notes is changing the amount of silver backing each Deseret Unit varies. However, because we have the silver to back our units and we don’t print more than we have silver for, we can lock in the value of units in silver at anytime. If there was a collapse of the US Dollar we could simply lock in the value of the Unit and proceed from there. Or if Deseret Units became widespread enough that we could make it independent of US Dollars we would lock it in at that time. Then it would be the exchange rate between Units and Dollars that would vary.

  9. However for the KSSABC because its scope is much larger, I think tying it directly to silver from the start would be a better course of action.

  10. Well, if you tied it to the bartering currency, using the 1/20 ounce coin I propose in the OP, you could print the KKSSABC notes with a minimum denomination of $5 USD and then go up in increments of 1/20 ounce. Here is what the original notes looked like:

    3 Dollar KSSABC Note

    So, the note might read, “Thd Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company will pay one twentieth ounce of .999 fine silver on demand by bearer. This note was purchased for FIVE DOLLARS.” Then it could have the number 5 in big, conspicuous font in various places on the note. This lets people know they paid $5 USD for it and that they can use it as if it was worth $5, or can redeem it for 1/20 ounce of silver.

    So, for increments of 1/20 ounce, you could conceivably have a currency like this:
    .05 (1/20) $5
    .10 (2/20) $10
    .15 (3/20) $15
    .20 (4/20) $20
    .25 (5/20) $25
    .30 (6/20) $30
    .35 (7/20) $35
    .40 (8/20) $40
    .45 (9/20) $45
    .50 (10/20) $50
    .55 (11/20) $55
    .60 (12/20) $60
    .65 (13/20) $65
    .70 (14/20) $70
    .75 (15/20) $75
    .80 (16/20) $80
    .85 (17/20) $85
    .90 (18/20) $90
    .95 (19/20) $95
    1.00 (20/20) $100

    Spot silver is currently around $20 an ounce, so that is about the same ratio (20%) of reserve (in hard currency) as the original KSSABC. From that paper I linked to about the KSSABC:

    The second criticism is that the Safety Society failed because Joseph Smith printed exorbitant amounts of bank notes, far in excess of what the Safety Society could reasonably support. This claim is also false. We do not know how much was printed in notes. Hill et. al. (1976), however, used the serial numbers on surviving notes with statistical techniques to estimate the amount. By their estimation, about $100,000 (face value) of notes was printed while Joseph Smith was with the Safety Society. That number alone does not tell us whether the amount was unreasonable. What matters is the reserve ratio. The Safety Society had a reserve of hard money of about $21,000 (Sampson & Wimmer, 1972). This means the Safety Society had a reserve ratio of 21%.

    For comparison, we can use the largest bank in Canada, the Royal Bank of Canada. At the end of 2008, it had a reserve ratio of 3%. It should be noted that this is during a time of severe economic uncertainty, which the Royal Bank has weathered very well. That the Royal Bank functions that well with a reserve ratio that low is suggestive that the Safety Society’s reserve ratio of 21% is reasonable. Furthermore, the Safety Society’s notes traded at a sizeable discount. By the time the full $100,000 was put in circulation, their market value would have been about $15,000. This means that in real terms the reserve ratio was 140%. I conclude that Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon managed the printing of bank notes well, and this did not contribute to the Safety Society’s failure.

    People could then use your KSSABC notes to pay their tithing. The same bartering currency coin would back all denominations. The Church, receiving the notes, would surrender them to you to get the silver, which they could then convert into USD. Or, if businesses start accepting the notes (or the silver) the Church could just use them at face value. You could print up notes in foreign languages and price them according to other national currencies, tying them to the same 1/20 ounce piece. One Mexican note worth 1/20 ounce, although purchased for a quantity of Mexican currency, would be equivalent to one American note worth 1/20 ounce purchased for a quantity of US currency. And so on. The note face value gives you plenty of buffer so that even if the spot price of silver shoots up to $60 an ounce, you don’t have to change the notes, at all.

    All this stuff is fairly easy to do, you just need to design the currency notes (which you’ve already shown by the Deseret Currency that you could do), have the 1/20 ounce piece ready (which I could do), and have people who want to buy and use the notes. People just need to trust you that this is legitimate, that they will really get 1/20 ounce if they surrender their note. (In other words, that you are not doing any fractional reserve banking or that you are a wildcat “anti-“bank.) Affixing your signature to the notes, as was done by the KSSABC, essentially makes it a promissory note.

    Anyway, these are just some ideas that come to mind.

  11. Announcement: A Distributor Has Been Found

    A man has come forth and offered to distribute the 1/20 ounce silver tithing coin for $5 a piece. He has one stipulation, though, and that is that he will become a distributor ONLY IF he sees that there is sufficient interest to warrant his investment. So, I have agreed to make an announcement here and if anyone contacts me (either by writing a comment here or by using the contact form found on the right hand column of the page), I will pass your info on to him and also send his contact info to you, and then you two can discuss the matter. He has committed to distribute the coins only if the total interest (of everyone that wants a coin, combined) equals 100 or more coins.

    This leaves two out of the three conditions fulfilled, (since I have committed to make the dies if there is a distributor and people interested in obtaining them for tithing.) Now all that is needed is people wanting to pay their tithing in this coin…

  12. I don’t understand the concept, Since it isn’t a minted currency and has no monetary value other then that of it’s silver content. This is not a currency exchange rate, it’s a purchase of a commodity.

    It’s value would be constantly fluctuating with the price of silver, you would have to keep adjusting the amount of coins you use to pay tithing.

    If you purchased your Coins before the value of silver went up, you could see a gain in value. However, if the price of silver dropped before you could get in to pay your tithing, you would have to spend additional coins.

    Sound’s like a giant PITA, I just don’t get it. It’s no different then if I just took a 1 cent piece of copper and assigned it my own value. say I scratched 100 “tithe bucks” on the face of it. Then, I would have met my obligation and the church could only redeem it for 5 cents worth of scrap metal. It’s a Win-Win right?..

    We can not assign it an imaginary monetary value. Or, I could just take a blank piece of paper and write “one thousand tithe bucks” and hand it to my bishop. Bet that would go over real well. Besides, sounds kinda dishonest to be dealing with your fellow man with an intention of screwing him out of what I’m agreeing to give him.

    Why not just pay 1% and lie when asked if you are a “full tithe payer”?.. Or, we could learn what it is we are actually supposed to be paying our tithes on and realize it’s far less then we have been giving and STOP paying so much! Then we would have enough left over to actually do what Christ said to do with it, and give to those in actual need. instead of the church lending it out to make a buck off of. Christ church should not be lending out our tithes for gain.

  13. The bartering currency is a minted currency (there’s a 1/2 oz piece.) This would be the second coin size produced. It is not designed to be used as commodity, but as a private currency. (But you can use it as commodity, if you want.) Its value (in USD) will be determined by the people using it as currency, so there is no stated face value (in USD) on either of the sides, but there is, in a very intended sense, a face value stated on one of the sides (.05 Troy). This is in anticipation of people pricing their goods and services using this currency. The other side states how much silver content is in the coin (1/20 ounce .999 find silver.)

    Using this coin as tithing puts it into circulation and assigns a (USD) value to it. The value would be $5 per coin. Now, after receiving the coin, the church could view it as a commodity and get less than $1 worth of silver out if it by selling it to a coin dealer, or sell to someone else to get as much USD money out of it, or hang on to it and keep it as an investment, or they could try to use it to obtain goods and services for church use (in other words, they could use it as a currency, which is its intended purpose.) If they attempt to use the coin by making a purchase with it, then it will be used at a USD value of $5. Now, which do you think is the best use of the coin? Which use will get the most value out of the coin? The obvious answer is to use it as a currency. The leaders of the church are not stupid, and so if people purchase and use this coin as part or all of their tithing donation, the church will seek to retain its $5 valuation (given to it by the people who used it as tithing) by continuing to use the coin as a currency, if they can. And in this way, the currency will go forth and more sizes will be introduced.

    If the silver price doubles to $40, then sure the coin will be revalued (in USD) by the people using it, although the face value will remain the same (.05 Troy). This happens all the time with every currency, whether private or public. The face value of the currency remains the same, but now you can buy more or less stuff with the currency in question.

    What I think you are having a problem with is that you want the bartering currency to have a face value stated in USD, which it doesn’t, since it is designed to be used in every part of the world, so it has its own currency designation, which people will standardize as they use them. Perhaps they will call them SBC’s, for silver bartering currency, or price their goods using a designation of .05 STO, for .05 silver Troy ounces, or perhaps they will come up with some other designation. None of that matters. The name and designation will eventually be standardized. Like every other currency, the value (purchasing power) of one currency compared to the value (purchasing power) of another currency, will fluctuate, depending on what people believe how many of these buy how many of that. But the face value remains the same.

    We are under covenant to pay our tithing, even ten percent of all our interest, which does not go to the poor or the needy, as you have suggested, but is for the priesthood, temple construction, church debts, etc. But there is no commandment that we must pay in USD. We can pay using any currency we want, whether private or public, so there is nothing dishonest about this. Of course, a bishop might refuse such tithing, because initially it would be inconvenient for the church, since the bartering currency initially would not be in widespread use, but if you mail it off to Salt Lake, or just pay anonymously, there is nothing they can do about, but must receive them into the church coffers.

    (The US dollar is favored because it has nearly universal use, being accepted by virtually everyone, but as more and more people begin accepting the bartering currency, this initial inconvenience goes away, and the church will just spend them again into circulation at full value. In fact, if the church receives these coins as tithing, and attempts to use them at full currency value at LDS-owned businesses, that might throw a lot of weight on the currency, since many LDS view all that the church does as inspired. In other words, just the fact of the church asking to make a payment in these coins at full value might cause an LDS-owned business to consider using them in their own business, which can only increase distribution and circulation of the coins.)

  14. I see your belief for this idea is clearly not rooted in reality, nothing but mental gymnastics. If you think for one second the church or anyone will recognize and accept payment in your new currency just because you think it’s a great idea, must be very young. If I were your bishop, I would just shake my head, give you a strange look and say: I’m sorry brother so and so, but the church does not recognize this as a form of currency. I would not then debate the matter with you, I would simply thank you for your time, show you to the door and think you were living outside of reality. The only reason most people today still accept the federal reserve note is because the rest of society is legally bound to accept it as such, otherwise it is just a piece of green paper. They are for “all debts private and public”. If someone refuses to accept our offer of payment in federal reserve notes, they have no legal recourse to demand anything else as a form of payment. It’s either take my dollars or nothing. The law does not require anyone to recognize your coins. You are not legally authorized to just create your own currency, Just because tithing is “voluntary” doesn’t mean they have to recognize your coin as money. I don’t care how sound your argument is. If you think you can just start passing around a commodity that’s worth $1 and expect anyone to except that it is now worth $5 because you print that upon it you’re fooling yourself…You can not create your own currency and expect that anyone is going to accept it as money when they can not spend it anywhere. Why don’t you try and pay your income tax with these coins and see how that goes over. When they show up at your door, you can just explain what a great idea it is and they will see that everything is ok. I can not take anyone seriously that can convince themselves that this would work. It’s just sad.

  15. If you think for one second the church or anyone will recognize and accept payment in your new currency just because you think it’s a great idea, must be very young.

    Ponderous, I’ve been paying tithing anonymously for years now, including with silver. I assure you, ever single time the church was able to figure out what to do with the anonymous US currency or anonymous silver I sent in. I assure you that they didn’t just flush it all down the toilet.

    Btw, I do appreciate you calling me very young, though my kids would disagree with you over that.

    The only reason most people today still accept the federal reserve note is because the rest of society is legally bound to accept it as such, otherwise it is just a piece of green paper.

    Um, no, that’s not exactly right. No private citizen is legally bound to accept a specific form of payment. And you can pretty much accept anything you want to accept as payment, even marbles:

    The law does not require anyone to recognize your coins.

    That’s true. I wouldn’t want to force people to do that, either. It should be voluntary.

    You are not legally authorized to just create your own currency

    That’s not true. Anyone can create their own private currency. This has been done since, well, pretty much forever, and it is still being done. There are many private currencies found even today, though they usually start to appear when economic times go south.

    I don’t care how sound your argument is.

    You’ve made that quite apparent.

  16. I was wondering today whether a 1/20 ounce coin could be as easily used in Europe as in the US. If the coin were valued in the US at $5 USD to match the face value of .05, could it also be valued at 5 Euros? So I just checked the exchange rate between U.S. dollars and Euros, using $4.25 as my standard (since that is how much it costs to produce the coin in USD) and here is what it comes out to:

    4.25 USD = 3.07224 EUR

    This means that should I produce these coins, they could be purchased for $4.25 USD and used at a currency value of $5 USD, and also purchased at 3.07 EUR and used at a currency value of 5 EUR. The “.05” face value would work equally well on both continents.

    In fact, such a valuation could be used for the Canadian Dollar (CAD), Australian Dollar (AUD), British Pound (GBP), and other national currencies, too, simply by using a valuation of “5” followed by the currency denomination.

  17. Someone came to this site today through a search engine, using the terms “mormon silver coins” and “moroni silver coins.” Curious, I went to Ixquick (which was likely not the search engine used) and searched for “mormon silver coins.” I then saw this page:

    Are Ancient Coins Mentioned in the Book of Mormon?

    The article is on a Christian ministry with outreach to Mormons, nevertheless, it brings up some valid points, namely, that the Book of Mormon doesn’t mention “coins,” but does mention “pieces,” which, when you look up the definition in the 1828 dictionary, can means “coins.” Also, that every ancient civilization that had coinage ended up leaving evidence of it around. In other words, coins were always found. Also, that the leadership always interpreted the Book of Mormon monetary system as a system of coinage, until 2013, when now they just call it a monetary system. Presumably the heading change was because no Nephite coins have ever been found and also because the text itself never mentions “coins,” only “pieces.”

    Anyway, reading the article, my mind immediately thought about the cursing mentioned in Helaman 13, which covered the practice of both the righteous and the wicked in hiding up their treasures. I’ve actually written about this previously on this blog:

    The practice of hiding up treasures unto the Lord

    What I never considered, until now, is that that practice, and the resulting curse, could have wiped out all evidence of a Nephite system of coinage. The treasure of the righteous was blessed, so that it could only be found by the righteous, whereas the treasure of the wicked was accursed, never to be found again. Regardless of whether the treasure was hidden in the earth or not, all of the treasure of the wicked, at the end of the Nephite civilization, was accursed, never to be found again. So, it may very well be that the Nephites had coins among them, but due to this cursing, which happened at the end, none of it can be found any longer. Therefore, archeology has no power to unearth these coins.

    (Of course, given this explanation, the unbelievers would undoubtedly say of it, “Oh, isn’t that convenient?”)

    Later on, after the Lamanites had dwindled in unbelief, whatever barter system they developed would be unaffected by the curse, and so those instruments of barter and trade would, and have, come down to us in the archeological digs. But the more advanced and revealed coinage system (the treasures) that the Nephites used while they still existed would have been concealed by this curse.

  18. I hit the “post comment” button too soon. I was also going to add that my current understanding is that this ancient coinage system would be re-revealed and set up again among the Lord’s people. It could very well be, for all I know, that the very coins that the ancients of this land used, which were anciently hidden in the earth unto the Lord, will be brought forth from the earth to be used by His modern people, thus fulfilling the promises that He made to the ancients of the land. In this way His modern people would not have need to mine gold and produce the coins from scratch, but would be enabled to have the very coins which were previously in use, and then later, if more were needed, they could use these coins as their template to create more.

    But before that day of revelation dawns upon us, we Gentiles can always use the bartering currency, which is tailored to our Gentile conditions. (Yes, I know, that was a shameless plug…)

    Btw, I have not heard from anyone concerning paying tithing in silver. It looks like I will have to place this thing on hold until another time. It may be much too radical a thought for even the LDS on the margins. Still, this post did produce a potential distributor, so it was not a total loss, although I find it quite funny that the potential distributor that stepped forward was not even LDS! Perhaps the Spirit will inspire others at a future time. At any rate, this post will remain up and if the people who come across it ever start telling me they want to use this coin for tithing, then I will produce it and we’ll see what happens.

  19. I was writing an email today to someone about this tithing coin and I found myself essentially bearing testimony that its design came about as a spiritual manifestation–for I was in the Spirit when I was drawing the design–and that after I drew the final design, the Spirit manifested to me that it was correct. And it dawned on me that perhaps the reason why there hasn’t been the response I was looking for was that nobody was asking God whether this currency is an inspired design, drawn under the power and influence of the Holy Ghost.

    If God confirmed to me by the power of the Holy Ghost that the coin’s design was inspired of Him, then surely He will confirm it to others, if they ask for the same manifestation. So, if I have never invited people before to do this, I will now invite all LDS that read this comment to

    ask God to manifest to you by the power of the Holy Ghost that the bartering currency’s design was given as a manifestation of the Holy Ghost

    After you get an affirmative answer, ask whether you should use it to pay your tithing. If the Holy Ghost says, “Yes,” I hope you will then leave a comment here about your experiences and also indicate to me that you want to be put in contact with the potential distributor I mentioned above. Maybe in this way, using the Spirit’s confirmations, this ball can get rolling.

  20. This is an email I sent to Rock today:

    Hi, Rock,

    I now think you are right. I think that a .10 oz silver coin would make a better tithing coin to use. The potential distributor I had has flaked out on me. If you, or someone you know, or even a group of people, would like to distribute this coin to LDS members who want to pay their tithing in silver, let me know. Here is the data:

    Minimum order: 100 coins (ordered directly from the mint)

    Cost:
    Price of Silver ($1.53 at current market spot price. You can supply your own silver or purchase it from the mint at 15 cents over spot per ounce.)
    +
    $2.75 striking fee
    +
    $1.00 die use fee
    =
    (about) $5.28 per coin.

    Sell price: $9.50 per coin, a 5% discount off the Suggested Currency Value (SCV).

    Suggested Currency Value in USD: $10.00 per coin.

    I suggest a distributor sell the tithing coin to LDS at 10 or more coins per sale. (10 coins being the minimum order.) A distributor can offer the coins at $100 for 10 coins mailed out (shipping and handling included). That works out to $95.00 for 10 coins and $5 for shipping and handling (using Priority Mail), or $100 total. That allows a LDS to spend the coins as tithing at a value of $10 per coin. For people buying coins without shipping (personal sales), they could be sold individually at $9.50 per coin. The difference between the coin cost and the sell price is the income of the distributor. This will set the currency value of silver at $10 USD for .10 oz., creating a sort of currency revolution or revolt.

    Email me at ldsa@email.com for all interested parties. If there is enough generated interest, both of people who want to buy these coins and pay their tithing in silver, and of interested distributors, I will make the dies. Using this coin, a distributor could potentially make an extra $1000+ per month by moving about 300 coins each month. As tithing is often paid each paycheck or monthly, this could potentially be a steady income.

    Please let me know if anyone is interested.

    LDS Anarchist

  21. if you intend to make a profit of a coin you don’t mint yourself, that is minted with the express purpose of paying tithing, i think you are heading into seriously excomunicable territory. no one should make a profit on the paying of tithing, it is so far removed from the way god intended for man to pay his tithes and offerings. render unto ceaser that which is ceasers, coins, currency, and bank-notes, and render to your fellow man what he wants and stands in need of, food, seeds, clothing, animals, tools, books. i love you LDSA, and i do not want to see you perish by laboring for money in Zion. pay your offerings not in any form of gold, silver, or precious metal, or a paper note representing the same, but in things that the church will have to sell to be able to invest in things like shopping malls and cattle farms. their opportunity for true service will increase, as will their opportunity to fill up their cups of iniquity. lets not make it easier for each other to commit sin, but hedge up that path

  22. Lol, dallonj, just about everything I’ve put on this blog is an excommunicable offense! Now, as for this particular coin and this particular currency, it is like trying to pull teeth with balsa wood pliers to get anyone to understand the vision of what I am trying to do with it. I once attempted, in person, to explain it to a good friend of mine, and he was initially totally confused. After HOURS of explanations, he finally was able to catch the vision of it and his reaction was identical to that of my brother, to whom on another occasion I had tried to explain what this currency was all about, and he also did not understand it, but again, after HOURS of me talking my head off, he finally understood what this was all about. They both finally understood that the Bartering Currency is intended to both subvert (overthrow) the currencies of the world and also to replace them with itself, creating something altogether new. As a result of this understanding, in which they finally understood how it could be (for I revealed many, but not all, of my future plans for the currency to them), they both said to me that my identity must remain hidden. But they were just looking at its secular impact, not its spiritual purposes, for I never explained to them that my understanding was that this was a sort of first step, in preparation for something that would come after. Still, it took me revealing a lot of my future plans before they were convinced that this currency, if it got even a small foothold somewhere, would very quickly dominate the financial landscape.

    Now, I realized after these very lengthy conversations with these two men, that getting others to see this vision would likely take just as much time to explain as it did for them, and that nobody would be convinced unless I revealed these future plans, which I am reluctant to reveal, since the element of surprise is a strategic asset. (Btw, I doubt these men would tell anybody what I told them, and even if they tried, they probably wouldn’t be able to remember everything I said to them or be able to explain it to others, anyway, so I’m still safe.)

    Anyway, there is no sin to purchase a silver Bartering Currency coin and use it as currency. Consider this: Is it a sin to take U.S. dollars and convert them into Euros and then to pay your tithing with the Euros? Now sometimes a dollar will purchase more Euros, and other times a dollar will purchase less Euros, therefore the value of a currency fluctuates in relation to other currencies. Now, is it a sin to convert a dollar into a Euro and use it as tithing when the Euro is less valuable than the dollar? If it is not a sin to do so, then it is not a sin to purchase a silver Bartering Currency coin with dollars and use it as currency, as it is intended to be used. And what is the currency value of the coin? Whatever the people decide, for it returns monetary power and control back to the people.

    Now, my suggestion that a .10 ounce coin be valued at $10 USD is so that they can be put into circulation quite easily, by the church members, and then by the church, for it creates a dilemma in the church leadership, as to what to do with the coin, or how to use it to get the most value out of it. Using it as tithing subverts the dollar somewhat, for it creates a new, circulating currency, that soaks up about $4 or $5 worth of US currency. Those that distribute the coin are simply distributing a currency, just as if there were distributors of Euros or other currencies around. These distributors make a profit, of course, for if there were no profit, there would be no incentive to distribute, and no one would distribute the currency, for that is how our society operates. Nevertheless, although we call these coins “tithing coins”, they are just coins that are being used “as tithing.” They are not a coin specifically designed for tithing.

    Now, it is true that you render unto Caesar what is Caesar, but who owns the Bartering Currency? The people do. Who mints it? The people do. Whose church is this, or who does it belong to? It belongs to the latter-day saints (as well as the Lord). Therefore, you pay your tithing in the currency that you own. Now, although people have silver coins, who uses them as currency? No one does. This, then, will start people using silver as currency. BRB…

  23. Okay, I’m back…

    Now, concerning the profit made on the distribution of coins, each distributor can sell the coins at whatever price they want. Heck, they can sell them at no profit, whatsoever, if they want to. That is their business, not mine, but I suggest that every distributor sell them at a minimum discount of 5% off the suggested currency value of $10 per coin, so that it is standard across the board, but they can give whatever discounts they want, or just sell them at cost. It is no sweat off my back, whatever they do.

    On my end, the $1 per coin that is for use of the dies will go towards the creation of the other die sizes. This will allow me to more rapidly create the full currency sizes and enact my future plans for this currency, so that there is no impediment, whatsoever, to its complete dominance. This actually takes me back to my original plan, of using a tenth part to create the currency, but then the Spirit told me to compete, and I went down to a hundredth part, but this was before I had considered valuing the currency at $10 per tenth ounce, which valuation allows me to bring it back to the original tenth without burdening anyone financially, for they will obtain the coins at a much lower cost in USD, but use them at a much higher valuation in USD.

    Those who wish to “bleed the beast,” so that the corporate church is struck a financial blow, while still complying with the commandment to pay tithing, will find this model attractive. Also, those who wish to pay their tithing in silver currency. For example, a distributor that obtains 100 coins (valued at $1000 USD) for only $500 or so dollars, can give these coins to the church as their tithing donation. They do not need to sell them to anyone. If the church finds a way to use the coins at full value ($1000), then the church doesn’t have any bleed effect, whatsoever, but actually benefits by receiving the coins, because $500 in tithing has now been converted into $1000 in value. If a person sends in silver bullion as tithing, the church must sell the bullion to obtain any value out of it. The bullion spot market price fluctuates from moment to moment and day to day, so its value is always in question. But silver used as currency, already “pre-valued” by the people at $10 per tenth ounce, does not fluctuate in value, but retains its currency value, until the people decide to re-valuate it. There is never, then, a question as to its worth as a currency. Because of these facts, if one wants to send silver in to the church, it should be a silver currency, not silver bullion. The Bartering Currency fits that bill.

    Anyway, I appreciate the concern, dallonj, but there is no sin in this.

  24. One other thing…I wrote:

    Now, it is true that you render unto Caesar what is Caesar, but who owns the Bartering Currency? The people do. Who mints it? The people do. Whose church is this, or who does it belong to? It belongs to the latter-day saints (as well as the Lord). Therefore, you pay your tithing in the currency that you own. Now, although people have silver coins, who uses them as currency? No one does. This, then, will start people using silver as currency. BRB…

    I was in the Spirit when I designed these coins, and also I was directed to make these coins by the Spirit prior to the actual designing of it. I know everyone chokes on this claim of mine, but I ain’t gonna deny it. The Bartering Currency is not just another coin, but was inspired of the Spirit. It was a spiritual manifestation. So, the principle of giving to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s, certainly applies to these coins. If this is the Lord’s church, then give to the Lord (to His church) what is the Lord’s. The Bartering Currency is the Lord’s. This is one of the reasons why I chose the biblical saying, “A just weight and balance are the Lord’s.” This currency belongs to Him, but also to the people. So, paying tithing in this currency is fully compatible with divine principles.

  25. The people do not own and print silver, nor do they mine it, precious metals are in the hands of banks and secret combinations from the moment they are found underground forgive me for being skeptical of your claims bit money is money even when called bartering currency, and it truly is the root of all evil. The roots pull nutrients from their surroundings, leading up to the lofty branches and bearing evil fruits. There is no such thing as divine money, Zion’s bank is a misnomer, and considering the evidence of connections between the LDS church and the rothschilds we don’t need the church to have any more precious metals than they already do. the church already has sufficient for it’s means, and it being a poor steward, I don’t see how switching yo silver would do more than create a temporary hassle for the COB to find someone to buy it or melt it down.

  26. The people do not own and print silver, nor do they mine it, precious metals are in the hands of banks and secret combinations from the moment they are found underground

    This reminds me of what I wrote back in 2008:

    I foresee that the distribution of these coins will ultimately lead to the opening up of silver mines in America again, perhaps because it will be profitable to monetize the silver taken from the mines.

    As for this:

    There is no such thing as divine money,

    Didn’t I just finish quoting Proverbs 16:11? Does it not say that “all the weights of the bag are his work”? If a coin weighs what it says it weighs, it is a just weight. That makes it the Lord’s and His work. That goes for the Bartering Currency and every other precious metal coin that accurately states its content. And what of Mosiah’s precious metal reckoning? Was that not given of the Lord through His seer? So, yes, believe it or not (and you obviously do not believe it), there is such a thing as divine money. And why is that? Because it is the intention of the Lord to be involved in all the affairs of men, including their monetary affairs.

  27. My problem with this is that I don’t pay $10 in tithing (more like $.50 per year). So, until I increase my increase, I can’t even begin to stump my ward clerk and bishopric councilors.

  28. I can’t even begin to stump my ward clerk and bishopric councilors.

    Lol.

    Btw, I recently got a quote from the mint for the cost of the dies and I told Rock that if he knew of eight people who were willing to pay their tithing in this currency, and had enough tithing to convert into 100 coins (at cost, directly from the mint), to have them contact me at my ldsa@email.com account, because this would allow me to make the dies for that size and get the ball rolling. They would need to have 10 ounces of silver to send to the mint for reminting into 100 coins, or they could just buy 10 ounces of silver from the mint at 15 cents over the current market spot price if they didn’t have any silver, and they also would need to have $375 in tithing money. (Spot right now is $15.83 an ounce, so if the spot price were taken right now, buying from the mint would cost $15.98 per ounce, or $159.80 for the 10 ounces. So, we’re talking around $534.80 in tithing would be needed to convert into 100 coins.) These eight people would intend to give them to the church as their tithing, therefore there would be no monetary risk involved in the distribution of the coins, for even if no one came forth to purchase the coins from these distributors, they would still go to the church as tithing anyway. But if these people actually were able to distribute the coins, then the additionally revenue generated could then be tithed and donated to the church, as well.

    In other words, this model takes the practices of the LDS church as its pattern, by taking the tithing money and using it to generate additional income prior to paying it. (For the church sets the church tithes apart for three years and invests them and then repays the exact amount of tithing first donated at the end of the three years. The additional revenue generated is then used for other purposes, such as building shopping malls.)

  29. Another email:

    Hi, Rock,

    I was reading D&C 124 today and verse 64 popped out at me:

    And they shall not receive less than fifty dollars for a share of stock in that house, and they shall be permitted to receive fifteen thousand dollars from any one man for stock in that house.

    Now, I had put up a post this year entitled, Should I produce a “tithing” coin?, but today I thought, “Could it be that I have already produced a tithing coin? The .50 oz coin is already ready to go. And with the new valuation that I gave the coins (which was inspired by Zomarah’s currency model), of $50 for .50 ounces and $10 for .10 oz and $5 for .05 oz, this scripture made me wonder whether my decision to produce a half ounce coin was also by inspiration.

    So, if you know of someone who already has silver on hand, and that would like to start distributing this coin as a tithing coin to the saints, it is already all set to go. They would need:

    50 ounces of bullion silver (to be sent to the mint)

    and

    $375

    This would produce 100 of the .50 oz coins. The total valuation of the 100 coins would be $5000. They would pay their tithing out of those coins and the coins left over they could sell to the saints for a 5% discount of off $50 per coin. This would monetize their silver bullion, and also would monetize their Federal Reserve Notes. Lol. In other words, they could convert their silver bullion and also their FRN into real money and use it as tithing.

    If you know anyone who wants to do this, have them email me.

    LDS Anarchist

    Now, as December is fast approaching, and as many saints pay their tithing at the end of the year (as they are directed to by the revelation), it may be the right time to get someone doing this. If 800 coins are moved, I will immediately make the .10 oz dies. If 800 more coins are moved, I’ll immediately make the .05 oz dies. I will do this so that Zomarah can back his currency in these coins, if he wants. But I ain’t gonna hold my breath. Still, if someone comes forth, I will put up a new blog post with the new distributor’s contact information, so that people can pay their tithing this year in the Bartering Currency at the Suggested Currency Value of $50 for .50 SBC. (SBC = Silver Bartering Currency.)

    Contact me at ldsa@email.com, if you want to become the distributor for that future post, or just use the contact form at the right side of this page, on the right-side column.


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