Surfing the Internet back in February, I came across the following three questions on another blog:
“Why do people have to have ordinances performed on physical, mortal bodies, thus necessitating proxies?”
“If the ordinances can transfer to spirits via proxies, why can’t the spirits be baptized?”
“And if there is some reason why they have to be performed on physical, mortal bodies, why can’t this wait until the resurrection?”
The questions intrigued me and I endeavored to answer them. The exercise ended up drawing out new information (new to me, at least), which is why I’m copying it onto this blog. This post contains those comments I left there, but with clarifications, corrections and a little expansion. First, though, here’s a review of two scriptures concerning baptism for the living and dead.
Baptism for the living; vicarious baptism for the dead
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. (AoF 1:4)
And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them; but behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.
And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. (D&C 138:29-35)
My comments with [clarifications], [corrections] and [expansions] in [brackets]
Why do people have to have ordinances performed on physical, mortal bodies, thus necessitating proxies?
It’s patterned after the way God saves us: through Jesus Christ, a[n embodied] Proxy[, even the Only Begotten Son of God, according to the flesh.] This points our minds to Christ.
If the ordinances can transfer to spirits via proxies, why can’t the spirits be baptized?
Because they are imprisoned [referring to the bands of death, which prohibit naked spirits from getting their bodies back and being baptized]. We do the work for them because they cannot do the work for themselves.
And if there is some reason why they have to be performed on physical, mortal bodies, why can’t this wait until the resurrection?
Because they [the resurrected, damned souls] are still, technically imprisoned [referring to the chains of hell, not the bands of death]. No one can break the chains of hell without faith in Christ and no spirit in hell can exercise faith in Christ without the ordinances being done in their behalf. A resurrected, unclean spirit cannot be baptized, for they remain unclean, having never exercised faith in Christ [after dying in their sins]. Although they have left the geographical location of hell, they still have the chains of hell upon them and are still subject to the devil. In their resurrected state, having the Lord before them, they cannot exercise faith, for now they have a perfect knowledge. It is faith alone that saves. Therefore, their only hope is through vicarious ordinances performed in their behalf, and missionary proxies preaching [to] them while they are still spirits in prison. If they can exercise faith in Christ while they are there, prior to their resurrection, they can free themselves from their chains and obtain salvation.
So, LDS Anarchist, what you’re saying is: Spirits can’t be baptized because there are no fonts in spirit prison.
No, what I’m saying is that 1) they are still impenitent [referring to the chains of hell] and 2) they are bound [referring to the bands of death]. Whether there is water or not in hell makes no difference, whatsoever. They can’t be baptized because they have no faith nor repentance because they are bound by the chains of hell [as well as by the bands of death]. That’s what chains do, they stop you from doing things you otherwise might do. It’s called prison for a reason.
[In other words, the chains of hell keep them impenitent, or incapable of exercising faith and repentance, which must precede baptism to qualify for baptism, and the bands of death keep them from being baptized because they don’t have a body. The double captivity whammy of sin and death makes it, essentially, impossible to escape hell.]
[You, LDS Anarchist, wrote,]
We do the work for them because they cannot do the work for themselves.
Ironically, doesn’t that sound like Satan’s plan?
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Satan’s plan was to save man by destroying agency. The Lord’s plan was to save man while retaining agency. Both wanted to be the Father’s proxy (His only begotten Son.) Under the Lord’s plan, there are a multitude of proxies, we [the people of the Lord] acting in the name of the Lord, in behalf of ourselves and others, as “saviors on mount Zion,” while the devil’s plan had only one proxy and savior acting under his own power and authority: him [the devil].
Are you saying they have no agency?
The spirits in hell have no agency. They are subject to the spirit of the devil and are bound in the chains of hell. He is the warden there. It operates according to his destruction-of-agency rules. Spirit missionaries traveling from paradise to hell to bring the gospel light to their darkness would be unable to get anyone to exercise faith in Christ and free themselves, because they cannot be baptized. Proxy baptism opens the way for them to exercise faith and shake off their chains.
And where does it say that there are no fonts in spirit prison?
Fonts in hell would serve no purpose, except to torment people further. Since the devil is a sadist, perhaps he does have fonts there.
One more thing. The ordinance of baptism requires complete immersion (of the soul.) Your physical body is as much a part of you as is your spirit body. So that’s the requirement. All of the fallen man must be immersed. The unbaptized spirits in prison are screwed because they have no power to get their bodies back, thus [they] cannot exercise faith unto salvation. So the Lord provides a way for their escape from prison, by making temple workers proxy souls. The ordinance of baptism, then, is of necessity an earthly ordinance. It must be performed by embodied spirits (souls.)
But what about the souls in spirit prison that have accepted the gospel and are ready to accept the proxy ordinance, but it hasn’t been performed yet…?
The principle of a future savior (on mount Zion) still applies, allowing them to exercise faith and escape. This is how the ancients who lived prior to Christ obtained faith. But if there were never any work done for the dead, none of the dead could exercise faith.
Are you saying that up until the point where the proxy ordinance is preformed they have no faith nor repentance, then as soon as someone performs the proxy ordinance, then they stop being impenitent…?
No. I’m saying that there must be a way for the ordinance to be performed, in order for the commandment to be fulfilled, otherwise no amount of preaching to the dead could allow them to generate faith. They are hopelessly bound by the devil’s chains and also by the bands of death. They have lost all agency, all hope and thus, all faith. The missionaries preaching in prison bring them agency, through the light of the gospel, and hope for escape from hell through the vicarious works and also hope of a resurrection. All of this allows them to begin to exercise faith and repent, which, if they do, shakes the chains off.
Which is it? Spirits in Spirit Prison are physically incapable of being baptized or they lack the faith and repentance to be baptized? Or some combination of the two…?
It is both. Their are two bands or bonds they are powerless to overcome. The first are the chains of hell, which subject them to the devil. To put it in more modern terms, subjection to the devil means that he takes total control over you, so that you become a mind-controlled slave, or a robot, a puppet. The “you” of you ceases to exist. Your will becomes (forcefully) swallowed up in the impenitent will of the devil. You lose all agency and become a thing that is merely acted upon. This is slavery on an absolute level. The second bond are the bands of death, which also provide many limitations.
In mortality, a person (who has not sinned unto death) can exercise faith, repent of all their sins and then fulfill the commandments of baptism, etc., because first, there are no bands of death on them and second, any chains of hell upon them are powerless to drag them down to hell (because of the body) and are also powerless to subject them to the devil. These conditions of mortality allow us to have agency and make choices according to our wills. Once we die, though, the limitations of the chains are removed and if we still have chains attached, all is lost.
Thus, people who die in their sins also die a spiritual death, as Jacob taught. This is also why if there were no resurrection, we would all become angels to the devil, again as Jacob taught. Death and hell present an insurmountable obstacle to mankind’s very existence, for according to the very laws of the universe, the devil must always win. But then the Lord provides the miracle of the atonement, providing a way for our escape.
And it is miraculous, for the spirits in hell have the will of the devil, and so are incapable of repenting or exercising faith. They can no longer choose their own path. They are powerless to get their bodies back. This makes it impossible for them to escape from their spiritual and physical death. But irregardless, the Lord provides a resurrection of the physically dead and a resurrection of the spiritually dead, doing the impossible.
If the missionaries preaching in prison bring them agency — and the hope for possible ordinances allows them to begin to exercise faith and repent, hence shake off their chains — then why can’t the missionaries in prison dedicate a spirit baptismal font and baptize them once they’ve repented?
The ordinance of baptism is a washing ordinance. We are washing “our garments.” You know how in the scriptures it says that many high priests washed their garments in the blood of the Lamb and were made clean? All things from the Spirit have both literal and symbolic meaning. There are no pure symbols in the gospel, but all symbols are based on real, concrete things. A real thing is symbolically called this or that because it reminds one of something else. So, we partake of new wine in the sacrament because wine reminds us of the blood of Christ, because it looks like blood, etc. The wine is a real thing that is used symbolically to represent another real thing: blood. To the prophetic mind, the physical body is a garment, for we put it on at birth and take it off at death, just as we do a cloth garment. Baptism is the ordinance in which we wash our “garment.” A[n] unembodied or disembodied spirit cannot wash his or her garment in baptism, for they are naked spirits, and that ordinance is specifically for the washing of the “garment.” Baptizing a disembodied spirit does not meet the requirements of the ordinance, nor its purposes. Because of this, baptizing spirits is powerless to generate faith. It must be done by embodied spirits.
Alternately, if the spirits of the dead don’t have the agency to repent and stop being mind-controlled robots, then how do they have the faith, repentance, and agency to accept the proxy baptism once it is performed?
The spirits in prison are kept in darkness by the devil. They are spiritually dead. I’ll put it another way: they are dead spirits. The devil is a murderer from the beginning and as soon as they are dragged down to hell, they die. In other words, he kills them. How do you kill an immortal spirit? By taking away their ability to perceive. If you can’t see, hear, or have any other sense, if you can’t even perceive your own thoughts, you will cease to exist as you. You lose your identity, your sense of time and everything else. This is accomplished by the darkness and the chains. Thus, they have no agency or power.
When the missionaries arrive, though, they bring with them light (if not so, the darkness would overpower even them) and this light allows the spirits to perceive once again, granting them agency. They still have to contend with the chains (which are real things that symbolically represent and look like, intertwining chains, and which also look like the tares plant, hence the prophets giving them that name, too) but they are no longer fully subject to the devil and can choose to exercise faith and repent.
Are you saying that the fact of performing the proxy ordinance breaks that spirit’s chains and allows the spirit to develop faith?
The chains of hell (also called the bonds of iniquity, since they proceed from the spirit of the devil) cannot be broken by ordinances. They have to be shaken off or shaken loose in the process of “working out one’s own salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord.” That process requires faith, repentance, and coming to the Lord with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. That process starts with faith, but no faith can be generated if the process is doomed to fail even before it begins. The spirits must be given hope. They must be given good news. If they are told, “You must have faith and repent, but you can’t be baptized nor will you ever be able to,” this would extinguish all chance of them ever attaining faith, for there is no salvation without baptism. This is why we perform baptisms for the dead.
In other words, you seem to be saying that because they died in their sins (and are bound by their chains of unfaithfulness), they can’t be baptized. OK, well then why can they be proxy-baptized? Does the proxy baptism itself somehow grant them agency so that they are no longer mind-controlled slave/robots?
The light the missionaries brings with them grants them agency. Proxy baptism allows them to be able to exercise faith unto salvation. Proxy baptism is permissible in the gospel because it develops faith, as does every other part of the gospel. Unless faith is developed, no salvation is possible. The chains of hell, once attached, are impossible to detach except through faith. In other words, it is faith that saves. Faith is the first principle of the gospel. All the other aspects of the gospel are for faith maintenance or faith development, which also makes them salvific. But nothing in the gospel saves apart from faith. You can go through all the motions you want in the gospel, if you never develop faith the chains are still attached and upon your death you will find yourself in hell, despite all your “gospel living.” So a man cannot go to paradise with chains attached, for they drag him back. A man can’t get a physical, resurrected body with chains attached and expect to be free of them by virtue of his new body. It doesn’t work that way. No, that body is Satan’s. His possession alone. Just as king Benjamin taught, the Lord does not take what belongs to another.
Summarized principles
Those were the comments, which I wrote in February earlier this year. Now to summarize the principles:
Baptism is ineffectual in the resurrection
To qualify for baptism, faith and repentance must precede it. A resurrected, unclean spirit cannot be baptized, for they remain unclean, having never exercised faith in Christ unto repentance. After leaving the geographical location of hell, through their resurrection, they are brought before the Lord to be judged. They cannot exercise faith in this state, for they will have a perfect knowledge. Because it is faith alone that saves, baptizing them can have no power to save them, for baptism only has power to maintain and further develop the faith that a person already has. It has no power to engender faith in individuals devoid of faith, being a dead work to such people.
Soul baptism (spirit + flesh “garments”) is the ordinance
The ordinance of baptism requires complete immersion of the soul. Your physical body is as much a part of you as is your spirit body, it being the physical “garments” of the spirit. So that’s the requirement. All of the man (spirit + flesh) must be immersed. We are entirely dipped into water, while clothed in flesh, washing our garments in the watery liquid. This garment of flesh is like a physical kabod that covers the anthropomorphic part of us, corresponding to the spiritual kabod that we also have.
Baptizing a naked spirit does not fulfill the ordinance requirements
Owing that naked spirits have lost their physical bodies and have no power to get them back, spirits in hell cannot be validly baptized, nor can the spirits in paradise be baptized in behalf of those in hell, because, they, also, do not meet the requirements of the ordinance, having no physical garment to wash.
There can be no faith without baptism
We teach faith, repentance, baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost as an ordered progression for those who have reached the age of accountability. The commandment is to exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent of all one’s sins, be baptized in water and receive the Holy Ghost. If you are taught these principles but are unable to be baptized and confirmed by the laying on of hands because you do not have a physical body, you cannot comply with the commandment. It will be impossible, then, for you to exercise faith unto repentance, because you cannot see the commandment to completion and receive the remission of your sins. You cannot fulfill the required baptismal witness. Preaching the gospel requirements (the first four principles and ordinances) to spirits, then, while simultaneously telling them they cannot comply with them, has no power to engender faith in anyone.
Vicarious baptism must, of necessity, be performed by the embodied people of the Lord
Embodied, proxy baptism fulfills the gospel requirements in behalf of disembodied (disrobed) spirits, so that now, when a missionary preaches the gospel to them, they can exercise faith and escape hell, confident that the vicarious baptism has been or will be done in their behalf. Therefore only the embodied people of the Lord, prior to the resurrection, can provide the necessary proxies to save the people in hell by allowing them to exercise faith, which is why temple work must be done on this side of the veil.
One proxy vs. a multitude of proxies
God’s plan calls for a multitude of proxies, all of them becoming saviors on mount Zion, patterned after the embodied Christ who performed the ordinance of atonement in our behalf, whereas Satan’s plan called for just one proxy: himself. (The missionary work done in hell is likewise patterned after the disembodied Christ who traveled to paradise to declare to them the day of their deliverance.)
Spirits in hell can leave on the faith and hope alone of future ordinance work being done
A spirit does not need to wait for his ordinance work to be done, in order to have sufficient faith to leave hell. All he needs to know is that the work will be done at some point in the future. This allows him to have hope and to exercise faith that it will be done. The urgency of ordinance work is not that undone ordinance work prohibits spirits from shaking off the chains of hell and leaving that region of darkness, but that it prohibits a spirit that has already left hell and gone to paradise from entering paradise. They can go to paradise, but cannot enter into it until the work is done, for like all hollow spheres, there is an outer and an inner part. The outer surface is where people wait until the work is done. The inner part is for those who have the ordinances. Those “appointed there” at the gates make sure that no one can pass into the interior of paradise (see D&C 132:18), but once the salvation ordinance work is done, then the people can pass by those “set there” (see D&C 132:19.)
It’s all about engendering, maintaining and developing faith
The first principle of the gospel, faith, is engendered through the atonement of Jesus Christ. All the other principles of the gospel are to maintain that faith and to further develop it. If you exercise faith unto repentance, but afterward return again to your sins, the faith you have engendered is not maintained and you lose it. The commandment to be baptized in water after you have exercised faith and repented of all your sins maintains your faith when you comply with it. The same is true with all the other commandments of God; when you obey them, the faith in you is maintained, and when you disobey them, faith is lost. Everything, then, in the gospel, is an act of faith, either one of engendering, maintaining or developing.
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LDS Anarchy 
There were more comments I left on that blog’s post, but they were on plasma theology and mostly covered much of the same ground that has been discussed on this blog already. However, I do want to quote a few excerpts from those additional comments which address new points. None of the following deals with the topic of the above OP, but as they were a part of the original comments I left, and I want them recorded, I’m sticking them here. There’s this:
and also this:
The real question that should be addressed by anyone promoting faith is: Why would stone structures like fonts and man-made temples built entirely by the arm of flesh be necessary for the redemption of the dead? Why do we think that God is not able to do His work using His creations, human bodies and natural bodies of water?
Did you seriously want me to answer those questions, or were you just being rhetorical? ‘Cause there’s a bunch of reasons why God commands temples be built using man’s hands to fashion them out of earthly materials and it would require a long post or two to explain it, so I’m hoping you aren’t really wanting an answer… (I feel bad leaving people hanging if they ask me an honest question that I can answer.) If you weren’t being rhetorical and you don’t know the answer to those questions and seriously want one, maybe someone else could unfold that to you, as the prospect of doing it myself sounds like a lot of work and I’m feeling a bit lazy, and giving a summary wouldn’t suffice, so I’ll have to pass on answering them. Sorry.
Oh you can rest your fingers. (for now) I think you and others know the significance behind such questions. And I would hope that we know the importance of grappling with them in the spirit not just online.
At this rate of questioning — we might as well wonder why God does anything. Why initiate of sphere of light amidst otherwise content darkness? Why fashion an earth out of otherwise perfectly happy unorganized matter? Why go to all the trouble of having spirit children and then going to all the trouble of embodying them in flesh? Etc. Why are there even “human bodies” and “natural bodies of water” in existence at all, in the first place?
Inquiring into this matter with that kinda reasoning — then can’t God have done everything on His own, perfectly self-sufficient and self-containing — without anybody anywhere doing anything?
Justin you know very well my comments can not be misconstrued as struggling against flesh and blood or questioning the works of the Lord. Corporate entities and their TEMPorary control over the minds of men is what we should be struggling against.
I do know — I was just playing with a line of questioning — seeing it where it takes me.
In deed. It seems the question then is — what’s the difference between my wife and myself performing baptisms for our deceased ancestors in a lake near my house and with the baptisms for the dead performed only in LDS temples using their procedures/protocols.
Yep. And we could also be thinking more of the saints and less of obvious detractors or those who belittle faith on certain blog sites. I thought it was a very loving and faith driven action on brother Rock Waterman’s part to offer alternative suggestions to couples who may feel pressure to marry in the LDS Corporation-controlled ™Pulls. I don’t recall seeing any of us finding fault with Rock for that one. I feel our brothers and sisters may be greatly uplifted by a lengthy post on why Joseph told the people that their faithful baptisms for the dead in the Mississippi River were perfectly acceptable – Then Brigham felt the need for tighter controls and told the people they would have to redo all those ordinances. LDSA is really great at inspiring or at least proposing faith-BUILDING action on the part of some readers. So how about a post on temple-BUILDING for the faithful few who want to worship God according to the dictates of their own conscious without the corruption of the corporation? That would be pretty awesome actually. 🙂
I was thinking about:
today — and thought about this revelation received by Joseph after they’d been performing their perfectly acceptable baptisms for the dead in the Mississippi.
This revelation seems to suggest that the baptisms for the dead are only acceptable in the temples which have been built in the appointed places of refuge from Babylon because it facilitates the gathering of the saints into those appointed places [instead of them remaining scattered in Babylon, doing the ordinances separately and singly among themselves].
Perhaps the Lord told Joseph that He would stop accepting their baptisms after that time because He knew that that would get them to gather together and to stay gathered, in and around the temples.
Again you can see how the Lord seems to be tying the necessity He places on brick-and-mortar temples with the gathering of His saints into the city of Zion. It seems perhaps that, while He may be able to accept a vicarious ordinance done anywhere, He puts this necessity on us because He knows that, in our weakness, it is the surest way to tie the saints down to a spot of land and get them to all gather to that spot of land from the four-corners of the world.
I think the Lord’s question: “how shall your [ordinances] be acceptable unto me except ye perform them in a house which you have built to my name?” is the one to answer if you want to talk about,
If answering that question can fit into worshipping God outside the bounds of the LDS corporation, then the revelation to Joseph [about not accepting ordinances done outside His temples] wouldn’t apply to any “tribal temples”.
That, Brother J, is precisely what we need to be talking about – TRIBAL TEMPLES. How exactly does one build a tribal temple?
You – https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2012/03/03/spicing-up-your-church-experience-womens-edition/
and Brother Eldie Essay – https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2010/04/27/an-alternate-view-of-the-keys/
have often referred to the Pre-Stood Order as an inverted pyramid structure with the greatest of all being the servant of all. The Pre-Stood Order eternally pre-seeds, and temporally pre-dates our current (mis)understandings of “up and down” or “higher and lower”. It is truly anarchical. Herodotus states the Great Pyramid took 30 years in the building and was built from the top down. David Icke says:
”Presuming the Great Pyramid to have been built, as is, from the ground up, is like giving credence to the dancing bullet in the Kennedy assassination.”
We have everything from the most ancient scriptural accounts to biblical scripture, to modern-day prophecy, to even carbon dating confirming the fact that basically, when it comes to priesthood orders and the physical buildings which proceed from these organizations…the spiritually AND literally don’t build ‘em like they used to. (Spek will be interested in a literal comparison of the many pyramids across the world to see that the most ancient are generally in way better repair than the more recent ones)
These huge structures were not built but thought (Thoth) into exsistence, people are so focused on physicality it cages our perspective. Was the universe ‘built’ or was it thought? We know the Pre-Stood Power is a Living Language. We are admonished in the BoM to watch our thoughts, words, and deeds…precisely because all things in reality proceed in that exact order. Yes I’m sure one can get scientific evidences and calculations to determine the material construct of something like the Great (Inverted and Pre-Stood) Pyramid, but that is nowhere near the full story. It is only mans limited attempt to explain a Marvelous Work and a Wonder which is inexplicable with mortal’s limited languages (limited priesthoods).
Justin, you said:
I can see what you are getting at. But I do not see a necessity placed for us by God on “brick-and-mortar temples” and I believe that our obsession with physicality is very misplaced since, in the Book of Commandments now known as the D&C which specifically applies to Mormons God Himself says of His commandments to us that:
“verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.” (D&C 29:34)
So we are to take as our guide for Earthly existence the things communicated through and directly to our spirit from Father. The Creator did not create the Earth and place upon it buildings. He did not build a brick-and-mortar temple and place man in it. He planted a Garden Eastward in Eden and placed Man in it. And he placed in Man His own Breath, His own Holy Spirit – Ruach Khodesh. Man then, IS THE TEMPLE. Any other focus is a distraction any other order is backwards. For a brick-and-mortar temple to be accepted by the Lord or even function half-way as a Holy Place…the physical bodies of those building and attending such stone structures must be made holy FIRST, otherwise is other than wise and equates to dead men’s bones inside white sepulchers just as the perfectly faithful, despised and martyred Jesus so accurately describes all these brick-and-mortar/martyr temples dotting the land today. And the key question is: HOW are our physical bodies to be made holy? The Key Answer is not wholly to be found nor obtained through a whole-some diet of course but first and foremost through the Spirit Body. D&C 93 tells us:
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
If we feel a “necessity” tied somehow between the physical body and the literal gathering of the Tribes into Tribal Temples standing in Holy Places free from the Babylonian Matrix…that is because the ball is in our court. It has been passed from God Himself as per those previous verses in D&C 29:
31 For by the power of my Spirit created I–Them; yea, all things both spiritual-and-temporal— [not brick-and-mortar]
32 First spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; [this is where the ball is passed to us, I-T is passed to U-Spirit, and GOD continues the work] … again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work—
33 Speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end, neither beginning; but it is given unto you that ye may understand, because ye have asked it of me and are agreed. [and right here is where He tells us plainly that He never has given any law to us which was temporal.]
The Prophet Joseph felt to reiterate this point and says: “All things whatsoever God in his infinite wisdom has seen fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract, and independent of affinity of this mortal tabernacle, but are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 355)
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
So let’s look to the First Temple of The Lord (Adam) created by His own Holy Hand in the beginning as our model. In the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony, immediately following his assembly, the two-part creation of the gods – firstly in spirit as Michael, secondly as Adam in the flesh – is put under a deep sleep from which he is commanded to “awake and arise.” The extremely faithful, twice excommunicated mystic, Brother Max Skousen pointed out that it is the Elohim character who tells Adam to, “awake and arise.” Next we hear a voice tell the brethren to arise, but it is not the voice of God. Furthermore Brother Skousen points out that to arise does not necessarily mean to awaken. The verb “awake” is conspicuously missing from the narrator’s command to all male patrons. We stand up, but do we really wake up? The entire endowment ceremony is patterned in such a way to show to our minds that we are the living dead sleepwalkers. And it is meant to instruct us in the art of “Coming Forth by Day” like the original title of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, fragments of which found on ancient papyri served as the temporal trigger for the retrospective revelation known as the Book of Abraham.
Speaking of the spirits of the unjust Eldie said:
In We Are The Weather – Pt. 2, I speculate that the majority of humankind may be operating with their physical bodies at an angle of 90 degrees difference (indifference) to their spirit-body (man of light) – the latter generally waking and “getting up” when the former is sleeping or “laying down”, and visa-versa. And so, the Book of Mormon testifies that we are guilty of trampling the Holy One of Israel underfoot. (Helaman 12:2, 1 Nephi 19:7, Alma 5:53) I used a very similar example, of spheres within hollow spheres when I talked about the Inertialess Drive Rotor as a type of things spiritual. I expected some kind of helpful input from my brother, Eldie, since it was he who first brought Inertialess Drive Rotors to my attention. But instead, I only got a back-handed diss from him in the form of a comparison between my personal revelation with a woman who seemed to be crazy and “off” in my discernment and in LDSA’s personal assessment as well. Nice. 🙂
Nevertheless the message of the TRUE TEMPLES of the LORD and the HOLY SPIRIT BODIES which are housed therein remains one of the most important for us at this time. So I press forward with a sincere desire to deduct understanding from the wisdom of scriptures, and blog posts, and comments made by my friends. For FELLOWSHIP is the fundamental FOUNDATION of ZION, not Belief Structure (B.S.) of men Struck-Sure of themselves. These are devised of man’s laws which he comes by “honestly” but are dishonest in that they are attempts to solidify the spiritual commands of the Eternal One to accommodate our CELLves. We should/must be about giving of our CELLves (especially those stubborn brain cells) to the Eternal One in Fellowhip with our Higher Selves. Then and ONLY then can we establish a Zion in bonds of love with others around us. This is participation in the Pre-Stood Order. The Noble and Great Ones, the Council of the Elohim ordained it thus, and who is Adam to discount the counsel of Michael? In short, we gotta get ourselves to-gether before we even say or think that what we are doing is somehow working to-gather the Tribes of Israel on the physical plane in a literal way.
Do we answer to Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young? Do we answer to each other? Do we answer to filthy Moneychangers behind Bishop’s desks and in the Office of Snake President? NO!
D&C 29:35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent UNTO HIMSELF; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.
Take note, and be aware, that as soon as these stone structures are in place and the first words of prayer are uttered from those dedicated grounds; that is the precise moment when Satan steps on the scene talkin’ about “I hear you. I am the god of this world. What do you want? Oh you want religion? You wan’t men to preach to you? Comin’ right up. Churches? Comin’ right up. Temples? Comin’ right up!”
D&C 29:36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the HOSTS of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency. [we literally host heaven inside our bodies]
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Now Justin, you said some other very interesting and pertinent things:
Any spot of earth anywhere, any body of land is meaningless in Zion terms unless the people inhabiting it have covenanted with the God of THE LAND. This is demonstrated to be real on our parts by covenanting with the God of our own Bodies of Dust/Dirt/Earth. LDSA said:
If not we are not inheriting a spiritual Kabod (literally “heaviness” in Hebrew)…we remain light-weight in our degree of glory and without the WEIGHT of LIGHT we will be swept off the land. Our own spirits blowing our physical bodies off…in the same way we have “blown off” the Holy Breath/Wind of Life as more akin to silly practices like Yoga, placing them underfoot as we feel ourselves more at ease with the false security of having it all worked out in our heads. We THINK we can inherit the Kingdom through perfect understanding of scripture while instantaneously knowing that faith in our unknowing is vital for salvation and exaltation.
LDSA, you also said something very interesting, and I want to assure you that I understand what you mean. I ask only that you try to understand what I mean. You said:
In script-sure-real language the term “perfect know-ledge” implies perfect intimacy between two things breaching the ledge of knowing and unknowing. So faith remains an eternal principle even and especially while in the presence of the Lord in more literal ways that you now find yourself. D&C 93 makes it pretty clear.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.
37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
So Justin’s recital of the Lord’s question remains key and anyone talking about anything other than FIRST things FIRST is of course, out of ORDER.
LDS Anarchist, I love what you said here:
WHILE CLOTHED IN FLESH. I want to emphasize what you have brought up about proxy work. If we do not feel inside the flesh the spiritual entity for whom we are supposedly officiating….how is this any more technically correct than a baptism performed by something less than total immersion? There is much to be contemplated…but one thing should be perfectly clear to us and to those of our brothers and sisters to whom we feel moved upon by the Holy Spirit to speak — the SPIRIT SANCTIFIES the ORIGINAL TEMPLE of the LORD and from there our surroundings may be sanctified….even edifices erected for spiritual purposes. And to paraphrase Westley in the Princess Bride…”Anyone who says differently is selling something.” My brethren, we must not allow our brothers and sisters to labor under the false idea that the Corporation can hold anything over their heads. There are at this time…and you can imagine in the hard times ahead as the Church breaks up more and more…dear families who the Lord has called…and they falter in their gathering footsteps only because they know not where to find truth. Let us be brave and sober in our faith promoting….not church promoting…but faith promoting so that we may be true messengers, true missionaries…part of the multitude of proxies which LDSA describes…gathering brothers and sisters, husbands and wives, sons and daughters simultaneously from BOTH SIDES of the Veil HERE and NOW. For the Kingdom of our God is nigh at hand. Seriously. In the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ, AMEN.
LDSAnarchy, you opined:
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The urgency of ordinance work is … that it prohibits a spirit that has already left hell and gone to paradise from entering paradise
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However Alma 40:14 states
Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they REMAIN in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, UNTIL the time of their resurrection.
1. Can you reconcile your comment with Alma 40:14.
2. It says here that they are in a state of “looking for”. However you said “you can’t see, hear, or have any other sense, if you can’t even perceive your own thoughts, you will cease to exist as you”.
jackdale76,
Your comment brought a smile to my face. It is not everyday that someone puts the scriptures in my face and says, “Yeah, but it says here so-and-so.” Usually I just get either silence or a simple, “Well, I don’t believe that.” No one ever uses the Berean method anymore:
So, I will answer your queries.
1. Can you reconcile your comment with Alma 40:14?
Yes, I can, for when the missionaries go to hell to preach the gospel, and those they preach to exercise faith unto repentance, they are no longer accounted as “the souls of the wicked.” Therefore, their faith empowers them to leave hell, for they are able to shake off the chains of darkness, but they still cannot enter into paradise until the ordinance work has been done for them.
2. It says here that they are in a state of “looking for”. However you said “you can’t see, hear, or have any other sense, if you can’t even perceive your own thoughts, you will cease to exist as you”.
This is the state of total demonic possession. They see what Satan sees, feel what he feels, etc. They are spiritually dead spirits, dying (as opposed to living) vicariously through the devil, the chief dead spirit. Their entire existence is “caught up” in the devil’s own. They cease to exist as their own persons and merely exist as appendages to him, as part of his own person. It is the exact opposite of how the Holy Spirit enters into a righteous person that repents and he gets to know God, by seeing things as God sees them, feeling what God feels, etc., thus becoming quickened. In the case of the devil, this spiritual possession doesn’t quicken us, but kills us, so that we altogether cease to be. This is total destruction of one’s agency. There is no sense of self. The Godhead are one, but they still have a sense of self, each member being a person, but in the case of the devil, there is no individuality whatsoever. It’s just the devil using their spirits as more spirit matter to add to his own person. So, when I wrote, “If you can’t see, hear, or have any other sense, if you can’t even perceive your own thoughts, you will cease to exist as you,” it is in this sense of loss of identity which all the wicked undergo in hell. I never meant to imply that they lose all perception, whatsoever, for there can be no torment of the ungodly by Satan unless they can perceive torment. Thus, he torments them by having them feel as he feels, and perceive as he perceives, etc., which is indescribable torment, for the devil is the most miserable soul of all creation, (and he is in “a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon” him.) This perception, though, is not them perceiving him from the outside. It is not objective perception, but subjective perception, so that they are him and he is them. They are one and the same being, with no perception of identity apart from Satan. Thus they become subject unto the devil.
LDSAnarchist, thank you for your response. It makes sense. Also Moses saw that it is Satan who does the “weeping, wailing ang gnashing”. So it makes sense that whoever goes to hell will have these Satan’s perceptions imposed upon them.
However, you seemed to have suggested that without faith specifically in the Atonement of Christ one cannot be in paradise. So, do “honorable men of the earth” go to hell too? Like, you know, the Buddhists who draw to God with all their hearts, they just don’t know that it is Jesus who is their Saviour. I was of the opinion that these folks go to paradise and there they hear the glad tidings from the missionaries.
So, if you think that such folks go to hell, could you please break down how each part of Alma 40:13 applies to them:
And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
LDSAnarchist, I responded here, like, 3 days ago but my comment still hasnt appeared. Can you check the spam folder?
jackdale76,
I fished your comment out of moderation. I’m not sure why this system put it there.
Okay, so on to your questions…
My understanding is that everyone who sins in the very least, even ignorantly (of the gospel)–except for little children (who are incapable of committing sin) and the saints of God (who have repented of their sins and received a remission of them)–goes to hell. Anyone, at all, that has a chain of hell still attached to them will be dragged back by that chain, down to hell. There is no salvation without faith in Christ:
When the angel says,
He is not talking of adults who have never had the gospel taught to them. No, he is talking of little children, which he clarifies later on:
Little children are the ones who do not have knowledge of good and evil, for they have not reached the age of accountability. Everyone else that reaches the age of accountability, even if they have never been taught the gospel, sin and are screwed by these chains of hell which get attached to them. These others, who become accountable before God because of their knowledge of good and evil–and it is this knowledge of good and evil, or the lack of such knowledge, which constitutes the capability of sinning in ignorance and still having the blood of Christ atone for your sins, which the angel was referring to, and not ignorance of the gospel laws–have this law applied to them:
Everything is compared to little children, for little children is what the angel was speaking of, not of people who have no knowledge of gospel laws. Men are screwed, for men are adults and are accountable.The Buddhist, then, has sinned just as the Christian who profeses Christ has. They both, once they reach the age of accountability, get these pernicious chains attached, which cannot be loosed except through faith in Christ, therefore, the Christian has a better chance than the Buddhist, because of his knowledge of Christ. Jacob taught:
So, no one can be saved in the kingdom of God, of any degree of glory, without faith, repentance and baptism. You cannot be saved while disobeying God’s commandments. Therefore, no one gets into Paradise unless they have fulfilled God’s commandments, for paradise is representative, or is the spiritual symbol, of the kingdom of God, and no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God. All, then, must become clean through the blood of Christ, by faith and repentance and baptism on His name, etc. Little children are clean, thus, they enter. The saints have been made clean by their faith and repentance, therefore they enter. Everyone else must get themselves clean. The chains of hell are dark and cause souls to become spotted, therefore all who have chains of hell attached are unclean. Nevertheless, those who have not sinned unto death, like the sons of perdition, get the opportunity to exercise faith, repent and receive vicarious ordinances, when the missionaries preach to the spirits in prison. So, all preaching by missionaries is done to the souls in hell, not to the souls in Paradise, for they are already clean in Paradise and thus are saved. It is the souls in hell that are in need of salvation being preached to them.
The idea that there are three places in the Spirit World: paradise, prison and hell, and that prison is where honorable men go, is a Mormon tradition, and is false. The whole of the Spirit World is a sort of spirit prison, since the separation from one’s body is seen and felt as a form of bondage, but there are only two divisions in the Spirit World: hell and paradise, corresponding to the two-handed condition of the heavens, which also existed among the Nephites. Hell, specifically, is a real prison, in that everyone there is put into chains, with the devil as the sadistic, evil warden. I wrote about some of these principals in the post Teachings on hell and the spirit world. I’ve heard fellow Mormons express the belief that other denominations are preaching their gospels to the souls in prison, too, and so the competition continues, even in the afterlife. They’ve expressed belief that the afterlife, for those who did not know the gospel, is just a place of boredom, etc., and nothing to be overly worried about. The scriptures paint an altogether different picture, though.
Okay, but I need to explain something. When I wrote this post, I did so under the three degrees of glory model. And when I answered your questions above, I followed that same tradition, likening the scriptures to ourselves and the three degrees model we currently operate under. But right after I wrote my comment response, I proceeded to compose a new post in which I taught that under the Nephite system, the three degrees of glory model did not apply, for they operated under the two-handed condition (on the one hand or on the other hand), which was the same condition we operated under in the heavens above, in our pre-mortal existence. So, none of the Nephite scriptures are based upon three degrees theology, but upon two-handed theology. This is why Alma states in the very same chapter (chapter 40):
He defines the wicked, then, in the very same sermon he gave to his son, as those who are unclean, meaning the filthy still, meaning the sons of perdition, who drink the dregs of a bitter cup, meaning they get baptized into the lake of fire and brimstone. Nevertheless, it is entirely appropriate to apply these scriptures, or liken them, to us and our situation, which is what I did. But just understand that these words have specific application to the two-handed condition.
So, Alma 40:13 is speaking, specifically, of these very same sons of perdition, the filthy still, the unclean. Also, it should be noted that Alma is speaking of two states of happiness/misery, and not two locations, in this chapter. The state of happiness he calls paradise, whereas the state of misery is a state of darkness, called (a temporary) outer darkness, also known as hell. But applied to us and our current three degrees, it is the same, for all those who inherit the final outer darkness (who are the filthy still) and also those who inherit the telestial kingdom or the terrestrial kingdom, have their house taken possession of while in hell, by the spirit of the devil, through these same chains of hell. The difference between the sons of perdition and the rest, though, is that the sons of perdition don’t repent, ever, for they are like their father, the devil, impenitent forever, whereas the others are merely prisoners, captives, brought down into captivity by these chains, which, through the missionary work, can be released by the exercise of faith in Christ, etc.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
As I ponder what you said, I cannot help but think about DC137:7
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All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
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If “This gospel” means “having faith in Christ, repenting, etc” it indicates to me that one will go to celestial kingdom even if he never heard of Christ.
And if, as you yourself said, paradise is patterned after the Celestial Kingdom, than it stands to reason that such spirits go to paradise.
P.S. I’m not arguing here, I have no firm opinion myself. Just using the Berean method.
jackdale76,
Here is what I actually wrote:
Paradise is patterned after the kingdom of God, not after the celestial kingdom, or celestial degree of glory. The kingdom of God contains three degrees: celestial, terrestrial and telestial. To get into the kingdom of God, of any degree, you’ve got to be saved. Salvation is, by definition, an inheritance in the kingdom of God, of any degree of glory. So, there is no salvation without faith, repentance, baptism, etc., for all of these things are principles and ordinances of salvation. A person, then, who has never heard of Christ, has no power to exercise faith in Christ, and thus cannot enter into paradise, for that person is not yet cleansed by the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ only atones for those who exercise faith in Him (and for little children, etc.) :
Little children are whole:
therefore they get into the kingdom of God (paradise), but all others that have reached the age of accountability and are capable of committing sin are not whole and need to exercise faith, repent, etc., in order to get in:
When the prophets speak of those without the law:
it does not mean that those in the world who have never heard of Christ or any of the scriptures (the Standard Works), who live in primitive society and have primitive laws, or customary laws, but not the revealed laws of God, that these people are who are referred to by the prophets. No, for there are many sins which are intrinsically evil and there are many sins which are evil because God said they are evil. Although the primitive societies of the world may not know the sins which God says are evil, which are not intrinsically evil, for instance, they may not know that they must rest on the Sabbath day, nevertheless, there is a conscience in man that tells a man, when he has reached the age of accountability, that there are some sins which are intrinsically evil, and these sins almost all men recognize as evil, such as murder, stealing, etc., even if they have never heard of the word of God. Therefore, only those societies which teach that there is no such thing as evil, such as the Lamanite society, which taught that everything they did was correct:
which was the pattern that Korihor took for the doctrine that he preached:
Societies like that get a pass, for they cannot be blamed, for they are taught from their infancy that intrinsic sins, such as murder, plunder, etc., are morally correct and proper to prosper in the land. But all other gospel-less societies are, for the most part, not patterned after this gross wickedness and perversity, but actually teach that intrinsic sins are, indeed, crimes, and they punish such for doing them. Their laws, then, which punish for intrinsic sins, become the laws of God, which He uses to judge them, because they match God’s laws in that respect. So, when the scriptures speak of those who have no law, it means that quite literally. A lawless society that teaches as the Lamanites taught their children. But all societies of the world pretty much have some form of law governing them, and these laws have some aspects of them, or many aspects of them, that match the laws of God, insofar as the intrinsic sins are concerned. Therefore, pretty much everybody is under some form of condemnation and under a broken law, even if they have never heard the word of God preached. Of special application, then, are those who are mentally deficient, and thus, who reach the age of accountability but still have no idea of right and wrong. These get a pass, also, and go to the spirit paradise. But people like Joseph’s brother Alvin, who died without hearing the restored gospel, but who knew right from wrong, would have gone to hell because all men sin in some fashion if they have some form of law given to them which matches some aspects of God’s laws, unless they exercised faith in Christ and repented and received a remission of sins before they died. It all comes down to those damnable chains which attach through even one, single sin. Unless you are perfect, or a little child, or guiltless because you have no law whatsoever, even a single sin is enough get a chain attached and drag your soul down to hell upon death. This is why repentance is an urgent matter and not to be postponed. We must be sinless when we die, having received a remission of our sins, otherwise, hell is our lot, because of the chains.
The heathen that has no law would find himself in paradise upon death, and also the little child, and also the mentally deficient, and also the perfect man (Christ). Everyone else goes to hell. However, the man or woman who has never heard of Christ or His scriptures, that would have received the gospel had they heard it in mortality, will accept the gospel from the missionaries when they get to him or her, and that soul will go to paradise, until the ordinance work is done, and then enter into paradise, to inherit celestial glory. Those honorable men who rejected the gospel in mortality will find themselves in hell, but if they accept the message from the missionaries, they will go to the outside of paradise until the ordinance work is done, and then enter into paradise, to inherit terrestrial glory. The telestial souls do not repent upon hearing the gospel message from the missionaries, but remain in their sins until the end of the Millennium, at which time they finally can repent and are loosed from the chains of hell. The sons of perdition also do not repent, but remain with chains attached even upon their resurrection, to inherit no glory, at all, but merely receive the kingdom of the devil as their reward. Saints who are not valiant in their testimony of Christ, die in their sins, and thus go to hell, where they are preached to by the missionaries. They accept the message and repent and are received into paradise, for they already have had the ordinances of salvation. They will inherit a terrestrial glory. Saints that commit all forms of sin, like unto the telestial souls, do not repent when the missionaries preach to them, but remain with chains attached until the end of the Millennium, at which time they repent. Then they inherit a telestial glory. They need no ordinances done for them, for they have already been done. The sons of perdition are saints who deny the Christ and the Holy Ghost, committing spiritual suicide. Again, these need no ordinance work done for them, for it has already been done. Thus, saints can inherit any degree of glory and even a kingdom of darkness, whereas everyone else who is not a saint can, according to their circumstances and works, inherit any of the degrees of glory, but the kingdom of the devil is off-limits to them.
But paradise is off-limits to everyone, except those who are under no condemnation, whatsoever, being, or having been made, clean before the Lord:
It is interesting, now that I read this comment I have just written, that we say that these ordinances are ordinances of salvation, but given that the sons of perdition also have received the same ordinances, it can also be said that they are ordinances of damnation, being used for the one hand and also for the other. Everyone, then, gets these ordinances done for them, regardless of the kingdom, glory, or lack of glory, that they inherit.
I feel like expounding more for some reason on this topic of the afterlife.
The vision recorded in D&C 138–which I have taught is not binding upon the saints, nevertheless, is quite instructive and, I believe, is a bona fide vision that he saw while in the Spirit–is instructive, despite some errors in it.
(The errors are found in verse 18:
for he incorrectly calls them chains and not bands, as he correctly did in verse 16:
The bands of death look like the bands of Jupiter and not like chains. This is why the holy prophets always call them either a band of death or bands of death, and never as chains. So, it may be that brother Joseph F. got confused in his wording, or saw something incorrectly, or whatever. He made a mistake. To err is human.
Another error is found in verse 55:
There are, and are to be, no rulers in the church of God, only servants:
He was obviously (mis-)applying Abraham 3:22-23 to these church leaders and their church callings:
Finally, the wording of verse 59 makes one think that penal substitution is how the atonement works:
The wording, technically, is correct, for the wages of sin is death and all those who refuse to repent must suffer the torments of a damned (dead) soul in hell. This is the “price of transgression” that all must “pay,” as long as one refuses to repent. It does not mean that your suffering pays the price of your sin, so that after you have suffered sufficiently, you can now enter into salvation. No, regardless of how much suffering occurs, it is only faith unto repentance that saves you and redeems you from the devil, releasing you from his chains. But the wording still makes people confused. It may be that brother Joseph F. believed in penal substitution, therefore, he had no problem using this wording, but he should not have inserted his own beliefs into a vision. I suppose when the next seer comes forth, he will get to see the very same vision as brother Joseph F. did, and this time the wording will be both correct and, perhaps, much more detailed as to what is actually viewed and all that exists in the next life, and that that more correct account will be inserted into our canon and this account will be removed.)
Despite the errors, this account of the vision is quite useful for instruction, nonetheless. There are two obstacles to salvation: sin and death. Sin causes chains of hell to become attached to our spirits and death cannot be overcome due to these bands of death that brother Joseph F. saw. The separation in the spirit world is according to the bonds people are in in this spirit prison. Those in paradise only have bands of death upon their physical bodies, and no chains of hell on their spirits,
while those in hell have both chains of hell attached to their spirits and also bands of death upon their bodies. Brother Joseph F. saw this. The saints in paradise had already gotten the chains of hell removed from their spirits during mortality, through their faith and repentance and the remission of their sins by the application of the blood of Christ. The little children never had chains attached, so they are there, too. The others, who had no law in mortality, likewise had no chains on them, either, so they are there, too. The chains of hell are attached to, and proceed from, hell, which is located in the outer shell. These chains keep spirits from going to the inner sun (paradise) so that they remain in the realms of darkness in the belly of the outer shell earth. Free floating spirits, who have no chains on them, float or gravitate towards, the inner sun, due to gravitation. So, the chains are necessary to pull back and keep these spirits in darkness in the outer shell.
Celestial spirits are those that 1) never had chains upon them in mortality, 2) had chains upon them in mortality but had them removed by their faith (and these are the saints), or 3) had chains upon them in mortality but didn’t know how to remove them, (for the fullness of the gospel was not around during their time), and who would have removed them by repentance had that gospel been around, but since it wasn’t around, they die in their sins with chains still attached. Spirits in the first and second situation go directly into paradise when they die. Spirits who are in the third situation go to hell. But these are celestial spirits, so why must they go to hell? Because they still have chains attached to them. The devil drags them down, despite their good intentions. Even one sin, one single lie or whatever, is enough to doom them.
God, though, provides a away for their escape, by sending missionaries into hell, armed with light. The celestial spirits, upon waking up and hearing the gospel and seeing the light, accept it with all their hearts, and are released immediately from the chains, floating to paradise.
Now, the missionaries are representatives of Jesus Christ and all the spirits in hell are brought to behold the light:
The terrestrial spirit, who did not receive the gospel in mortality, or who rejected the prophets and seers in mortality but obeyed the commandments of men, or who accepted the gospel message in mortality, but were not valiant in the testimony of Christ, who were guilty of inner sin but not outer sin, etc., these spirits, upon waking up and seeing the light from of the missionaries, accept it. This is their second chance at accepting the gospel, and since the missionaries plainly manifest the light and they are no longer deceived by the craftiness of men, they see this light plainly and finally accept it. They become freed from the chains and float to paradise, too.
Terrestrial spirits differ from celestial spirits in that celestial spirits accept the gospel on the first chance, while the terrestrials only accept it on the second chance. But neither celestials nor terrestrials, that leave hell, can enter paradise until the ordinance work is done.
Now, the telestial spirits, sin in hell, not just in mortality, because when the missionaries plainly manifest the light to them, they don’t accept the message and receive the light. They don’t repent. Thus, they remain under condemnation:
All the spirits of hell have been preached to but the innumerable hosts of telestial spirits still refuse to repent.
So what does God do to release them from their chains? He resurrects the celestial and terrestrial souls, emptying out paradise, which is the inner sun, a place of light, and then he binds Satan in a new prison, removing him and all his captive spirits from the outer shell hell and placing them in the center of the earth, at the location of the inner sun, so that every one of them is bathed in light for a thousand years. Now, the idea that Satan would be bound in the inner sun belongs to Rodney Cluff. He is the originator of the idea, and I have adopted it, because it rings true to me. But Rodney has the idea that Satan would be placed on the inside of the hollow, inner sun sphere. I think, though, upon further pondering it, that Satan and his hosts will be placed on the outside surface of the inner sun, so that the outer darkness-inner light symbolism is kept intact.
Binding him to the inner sun is as simple as releasing the chains of hell which are bound, or anchored, in hell. Once detached from the confines of hell, both Satan and his angels and his sons of perdition and his captive telestial spirits will float to paradise. Satan still wields his chains in his hands, thus all these spirits are still attached to him and he can keep them from entering into the gates of paradise, via these chains, but all this light that he and the others will be bombarded with eventually will weaken him:
This will allow the telestial spirits to finally be able to shake off their chains of hell by exercising faith unto repentance. It’s a slow process, but eventually after 1000 years every telestial soul will have been redeemed from the devil, and since the ordinance work will have been done for them by then, they will be ready for resurrection, for they are “heirs of salvation” (D&C 138:55). Once freed from the chains of hell, the telestial spirits will “rise up” and enter into paradise, through its gates, to await their resurrection, or deliverance from the bands of death, just like the celestial and terrestrial spirits did before them.
The inner and outer surface (the shell) of paradise will serve as the “great divide” between Satan and his darkness and the spirits of the now saved telestials. The telestials will dwell there in light, peace and will rest from the torment that the devil made them experience, while on the other side of the shell wall the devil and his angels and sons will dwell in darkness (which is bathed in light).
After all is said and done, the last resurrection, called the resurrection of the unjust (for the telestials, you remember, commit a sin in hell by not repenting when the light is plainly manifest to them, something the others don’t do, therefore, they are deemed unjust and inherit a “resurrection of the unjust.”) These and the sons of perdition come forth, but the sons of perdition are like their father, eternally impenitent, and because they don’t repent even after this baptism of light that lasted all day long (for one day is a thousand years to God), they receive what he receives: a baptism in the lake of fire and brimstone.
All this to accomplish the work and purposes f the Lord. Thus, it should not be viewed as a punishment, that the telestial souls must remain for a thousand years before they can be resurrected. God does what he does to save us, not to punish us.
The idea, as I said in a previous comment, that the missionaries preach the gospel to “good” spirits in paradise, who go to paradise after they die because they would have accepted the gospel in mortality if they had had the chance, is not supported in the vision found in section 138. Brother Joseph F. only says that he saw the missionaries go to the realms of darkness and preach.
One more thing. The testimony of Jesus, spoken of in D&C 76, is the preaching done by these missionaries, whether in mortality or in the world of spirits:
These verses are one sentence and are to be taken together as a description of the type of person being spoken of, therefore, they who died without law are they who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh. This testimony was given by the mortal missionaries. But afterwards, they receive that testimony from the spirit missionaries. These are the terrestrials. The Son visits the people, then, via His missionaries.
They receive this testimony, therefore, they receive the Son, but the telestials do not receive this testimony, not in mortality, neither in the world of spirits:
They reject the missionaries’ testimony of Jesus. They reject, then, the Son. But they do end up receiving the ministration of the Holy Spirit, via that 1000 year bathing in the inner sun of the earth (paradise):
Okay, I’m done expounding for today.
LDSA, FYI, you started this comment and stopped halfway. That’s when my RSS reader picked it up. Then after you added more text, my reader didnt pick it up, so i didnt know you posted so much here.
And thank you for the exposition. (This is not to say that I can process so much info)
1. I understand that in order to be tormented one has to be conscious of one’s own self. If, as you say, the devil takes total posession of their spirits to the point where his thoughts are their thoughts, how can they even perceive that they are being taken control of and thus how can they suffer? It seems more like they are sleeping while the devil is abusing their spiritual tabernacles.
2. You are saying that the spirits can go out of the hell upon repentance but cannot *enter* the paradise until their ordinances are performed by proxies. So, their chains of hell are no longer there and they gravitate to paradise. But who is there preventing them from entering?
jackdale76,
I’ll answer your comment and questions in a moment. I want to address the scripture you brought up originally, to attempt to correct the idea that Alvin went to paradise, and not hell, when he died and that he was taught by the missionaries in paradise, and not in hell. First, it should be noted that the vision in section 137 is of the future. We know this because Joseph Smith’s father was in the very room with Joseph, while he was seeing the vision, yet Joseph says,
Secondly, the date of that vision is 1836, which is four years after Joseph saw the vision of three glories, recorded in section 76. Third, Joseph himself (correctly) believed that Alvin had not received a remission of his sins, and thus was unclean:
Joseph had applied what he had learned in the section 76 vision to Alvin and concluded that Alvin fit into the terrestrial category, per:
Joseph interpreted “received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh” as both “not having had the opportunity to receive that testimony in the flesh” and also as “having had the opportunity to receive that testimony in the flesh, but choosing not to.” Thus, Joseph (correctly) believed that Alvin had gone into prison upon death, because Alvin had died in his sins
but that he would accept the message once the missionaries brought and taught it to him. Thus, Joseph (correctly) believed that Alvin would afterwards receive it in prison. Per section 138, the vision Joseph F. received of the redemption of the dead, we learn that the missionaries preached the gospel to those in prison, and that these people they preached to were in darkness.
They did this so that these people “might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit” (verse 34). Paradise is a place of light, not darkness, therefore Alvin could not have gone to paradise to hear the gospel message from the missionaries. Spirit prison, then, is not a third place–different than paradise and hell, but on the paradise side–but instead is that very hell that Jacob spoke of:
Now, I will explain why the scriptures use the term “prison” to describe where the spirit missionaries are preaching, and not “hell.”
All celestial and terrestrial spirits that die in their sins go to the very same place as the telestial spirits go, but for them it is called “prison,” while for the telestials it is called “hell,” for they are grouped according to the kingdom of glory they will receive. Nevertheless, it is the same place of captivity and bondage, according to the power and captivity of the devil, through his chains of darkness, for everyone there is bound down or chained down by these very same chains of hell. It’s just that when the missionaries arrive bringing the gospel light, the celestial and terrestrial spirits are freed from the chains, through their faith and repentance, while the telestial spirits refuse to repent. The celestial and terrestrial spirits are said, then, to be in prison, which fulfills the prophecy that “all the prisoners shall go forth.”
All the prisoners go forth and are freed by the preaching of the missionaries, but the telestials are not, yet, freed. Therefore, they (the telestials) are said to be “in hell” because they don’t repent, while the celestial and terrestrials are said to be “in prison,” which prison is then opened to them and they are all let out.
The prophets use the different terms (“prison” and “hell”) to differentiate between those that will inherit the resurrection of the just (celestial and terrestrial souls) and those that will inherit the resurrection of the unjust (telestial souls), but to the prophetic mind, the location of “spirit prison” and “hell” is the very same place of darkness. Latter-day saints, though, have developed a confusion over these terms and formulated a fiction that there are three places in the spirit would: paradise, spirit prison and hell, with spirit prison being a prison only in the sense that you can’t leave, but you can walk around and converse with others who are there, (who are also preaching their gospels in competition with our missionaries preaching the real gospel), as a sort of limbo or waiting station and not a place of real or literal darkness, in which you can’t see anything, but only figurative or spiritual darkness, in which you still don’t know the truth, your mind being “blinded by the craftiness of men.” But that is just a fiction. Hell and spirit prison are located in the outer shell of the earth, in its depths. It is a region of literal darkness, for there is no light there to illuminate the surroundings, save, perhaps, for the magma pools and rivers, which arrear as a lake of fire and brimstone. Seeing the magma, though, is not the same as having it illuminate your surroundings. So, everyone there is quite literally in the dark. Nevertheless, as prison is said to be open and hell is said to be a place in which you can be “thrust down to,” we can surmise that there are at least three levels of depth to the underworld, and the lowest or the bottom or deepest level, where the telestials go, is hell proper. Above that level would be where the terrestrials are bound, and this is where the “prison” begins, and above that would be where the celestials are bound, and this is where the prison ends. As not all men commit the same sins, nor do they commit the same number of sins, the chains found upon those that die in their sins will vary in strength and thickness, per:
The telestial spirits, then, are bound with “strong cords,” while the celestial spirits are bound with “a flaxen cord,” since that is all the sin the devil could get them to do. The terrestrials have “medium thickness” cords on them. The kingdom of the devil, then, encompasses all who have these chains upon them
whether they are embodied or disembodied, the embodied being in mental darkness (blind minds) and the disembodied being in both mental and literal darkness. The kingdom of God, on the other hand, encompasses those who have no such chains on them.
One last thing, the “filthy still,” which are the sons of perdition, are spoken of as “still” filthy because there were others, who were not sons of perdition, who were washed clean of their filthiness. Thus, everyone who dies in their sins, whether a celestial, terrestrial or telestial spirit, is filthy, for sin makes you unclean, and since no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God, none of these filthy spirits can enter into paradise, until they are washed clean by their faith, repentance and the vicariously performed ordinances of God. Thus, they must enter the kingdom of the devil, which is a kingdom of darkness, having no glory.
jackdale76,
Okay, on to your questions….
1. Didn’t Clinton always say that he feels our pain? You don’t need to be conscious of yourself to feel the pain of another. The devil is miserable forever. All he needs to do is let you feel how he feels, without you having the relief that comes from knowing that it’s his pain and not yours, (since you are not conscious of yourself), and without the knowledge that this pain will end, (for the devil’s pain is eternal, or never-ending), and voila!, you are now also miserable forever. Thus the devil torments all who have these chains attached to them in his kingdom. However, as you said, it is like they are sleeping, and it is also spoken of in the scriptures in terms of being asleep, for it is just a dream, (really a nightmare vision courtesy of the devil), that will eventually come to an end for almost everyone (except the sons of perdition). They call it the sleep of hell:
jackdale76,
2.
That is correct. That is what I’m saying.
I suspect that it has more to do with the vortical motions of Earth’s spirit than due to gravity, but in essence, yes, they are carried or “taken home” by the spiritual vortical currents back to paradise, as they were at the first, when they first died. Thus these currents are constantly pulling (or “calling”) all spirits back to the center sphere, and unless you are anchored in a physical body, or chained down by Satan’s bonds (and he himself is anchored to many physical mortal bodies through these very chains), then you cannot help but be carried back to, and into, the paradise gates.
Well, there is this, which may offer a clue:
However it works (for, as far as I know, this has not yet been revealed), no repentant sinner gets into paradise until the ordinance work has been done for him or her. This is why we speak of the temple work for the redemption of the dead in terms of redeeming the dead. That ordinance work is necessary for their salvation. (Salvation = receiving an inheritance in the kingdom of heaven).
Thus, the dead cannot be perfected without us and we, then, become saviors on Mount Zion.
More scriptures that show there is no entrance into kingdom of God without ordinances
LDSA, can we extend the premise of this essay further and say that those who have not received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost cannot enter paradise. Is doesn’t make sense that the baptism of fire is done by proxy though. It is one thing the have hands laid upon with the view of receiving the Holy Ghost and quite another thing to actually receive it. So, where does this baptism of fire fit in? Do spirits immediately get this baptism as soon as they develop faith in Christ?
I would think that entrance into paradise, which is an inner sun, would be a/the baptism of fire for these spirits Thus, spirits that exercise faith unto repentance go from the realm of darkness to the outside of paradise, to wait until the ordinance work is done for them, which, when done, then allows them to receive a baptism of fire, by them passing through those fiery gates.
LDSA, would you say that Wilford Woodruff’s vision of the Founding fathers in the temple is a bona fide vision? Seeing that those fathers were in hell at the time of the vision the obvious answer is no.
And in general, is it possible for a person who is in hell to appear in a dream/vision and ask for ordinances (as I often hear testified about among the LDS)?
Sorry, I was a bit confused when I asked that question about founding fathers. Apparently they were not in hell because some of them were “wise men” as per D&C.
The gist of my second question is – if the spirits freed from hell gravitate towards the inner sun, how can they appear in dreams/visions? One would think they are free-roaming.
err, I meant to say, “One *wouldn’t* think they are free-roaming”
LDSA, I did my due diligence trying to find your post which speaks about how we become “minions” of the devil but I couldn’t find it. Do you know where it is?
I recall something along those lines in the comments on “…and the labor which they had to perform was to look”, e.g.:
Since the Savior’s resurrection, people in Paradise have been empowered to leave Paradise and traverse the gulf that separates the inner sun from the outer shell, to perform missionary work. It may be that these spirits that are waiting on the outside surface of the inner sun can be likewise empowered to traverse the gulf and travel to the inner and outer surfaces of the outer shell, where their relatives and friends are, to warn them and communicate messages. It takes faith to break the chains and travel in one direction, from the outer darkness to the inner light. That same faith may be sufficient to travel in the opposite direction, though undoubtedly none of these spirits would dare enter the regions of darkness again, until fully empowered by the light found on the inside of the inner sun, i.e., until they have entered into Paradise and been properly empowered to re-enter the darkness to attempt to save the captive spirits there.
Justin probably knows better than I do where everything is on this site, so his quote is probably the best bet at being what you were trying to find.
Two instances come to mind where demons spoke and apparently acted as their own agents:
Luke 4:34
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.
Does it make sense that Lucifer would utter such words? Is he planning to discredit Jesus by admitting that He’s the Holy One? While I wouldn’t put such cunning plan past him, my occam’s razor tells me the demon was speaking on behalf of oneself.
Luke 8:28&31
28 … said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Why would Lucifer beseech Jesus in this situation? Really, I have no explanation other than the demons are asking of their own volition.
jackdale76,
Here are more references to unclean spirits:
Spirits, Evil or Unclean
Bible scriptures are fun because of some of the confusing interpretations one can get from multiple scriptures. For example:
So, since the Luke 4:34 spirit said to Jesus, “I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God,” then this spirit must be of God, right? And since the Luke 8:28 spirit said to Jesus, “What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high?” we can conclude this also was a spirit sent of God, right? Lol.
But to answer your questions concerning these verses (and the others that speak of unclean spirits talking to Jesus and also Paul–see the hyperlink I left you above–), my understanding is that when we all are brought to heaven and are arraigned before the judgment seat of Christ, that we will awake, all of us, including the sons of perdition, and even these will confess that Jesus is the Christ:
It may be because of the great light that they see at this point, that this is the reason why they get their minds back. Strangely enough, the first thing they do is confess that He is God, just as these unclean spirits did in these verses. So, it may be that on the spiritual plane, as disembodied spirits, that these unclean spirits are quite aware of how much or how little light is in their environment, they being able to perceive the whole or much of the electromagnetic spectrum than the mortals do, who only perceive visible light. Thus, when someone, who is radiating light like a Sun on a spectrum mortal man cannot perceive, but which these evil spirits can perceive–such as a Jesus or a Paul–comes into their presence, or sufficiently close to them that they can perceive this great luminary source, it may be that they wake up momentarily just as they will do at the last day, and thus we get these immediate confessions of God’s divinity from them. They still have the chains attached, of course, and the effect must last only temporarily, until the great light source is once again outside of their perceptive range, and even though they may be able to speak of their own volition during this time, being aware, once again, of their own selves, they still have no faith in Christ unto repentance (and thus no power to repent), and thus no agency (power to act and not to be acted upon) except it is given to them. The request of the two thousand unclean spirits which were in that one man, who called themselves Legion, who were cast out into the swine, might be considered an act of faith on the part of the two thousand now awake spirits, (for God only acts when there is faith, and God granted their request to go into the swine), but the faith they exercised was not that needed to repent, which they would never do.
Demonic possessions, that I know of, do not ordinarily come with the demons confessing that Jesus is the Christ, etc., so these instances of confession may conform to that principle of last day confession upon viewing the very great light of God. In other words, these things only happened because Jesus and Paul were there. Other men, who do not shine like these two, do not elicit confessions of divinity from demonically possessed individuals, but instead get lies and blasphemies and cursing and the taking of the Lord’s name in vain, etc., from the demons.
I had more thoughts on what I wrote in the previous comment. I have taught on this blog that the physical body is a sort of protection from the full effects of Satan’s chains of hell. Also, I have taught that the sons of perdition (the unclean spirits) and the angels of the devil (the one-third) are not in hell, meaning in the depths of the earth, but roam around the living. They still have chains attached to them, of course, like most of the living do, but they aren’t bound down tight like the captive spirits in hell and prison. Nevertheless, their very existence is a living hell, so to speak, since they are made “like unto” Satan himself, so they are eternally miserable.
Jesus said in the Bible (expanded by Joseph Smith in the Inspired Version) that an unclean spirit seeks rest to his soul, but finds none (of course), so he returns to his house (the body he was formerly possessing). Oh, what the heck, I’ll just put up the scripture:
What kind of rest is he seeking? I suppose it is the rest that comes from being in a body again. Therefore, it may be that these evil and unclean spirits are actively trying, by their very demonic, miserable nature, to get back into a body again, to possess it, and that this very possession gives them some measure of relief or “rest.” And why is it that being in a body again gives an unclean spirit some kind of rest? Rest from what? I suppose it is rest from the full effects of Satan’s chains, which are more fully felt outside of a body.
So, maybe just being in a body lessens the effect and control that Satan has on his minions. And also, perhaps–boy, I’m speculating a lot on this one!–being among the living and in the light of the surface world also lessens, to some degree, Satan’s full control over them, so that they go about their work without him (Satan) full-on controlling them. Nevertheless, he still keeps them in total torment through his chains, so much so that their only desire is to rest. And thus, this instilled desire in them to rest from his tormenting chains keeps them actively working for him anyway, to tempt and possess the bodies of men, that they (the spirits) might have rest from him. Thus, Satan fully manipulates the situation, getting these spirits to perform the very work that he wants done, for it is to his advantage that these evil and unclean spirits go about doing these things. They also obtain an advantage, for if they are able to demonically possess a body, then they get relief, or a measure of relief, from the full effect of the chains of hell. But demonic possession doesn’t work very well, because inevitably every evil spirit in the locality will want to jump into the body, too, and what you end up getting is a bunch of contending spirits vying for control over the same flesh, which is why the possessed soul contorts and jerks in his movements, cuts himself, etc. He or she becomes a vessel of wrath as all the evil spirits inside compete with each other and lash out at each other, etc.
Speculations, I know, but this would explain why the evil spirits would rather demonically possess the bodies of swine than not possess any body at all. Oh, and I said two thousand spirits were the Legion, but that number was possibly too small. There were 2000 swine that the Legion entered into, but given their nature–which is to possess a body as a group–I suppose it is possible that there were many evil spirits in each pig. Multiply that by 2000 pigs, and you get a hoard of hell that was in that poor man…
One more thing, concerning the “faith” of the unclean spirits, asking Jesus to go into the swine… It might be that their request was not technically faith. If they saw Jesus in the full electromagnetic spectrum, meaning that they saw His glory and thus “knew” Him as God, or recognized Him as God, because of His glory, then it may be that their request was based upon this knowledge and not on faith. The same principle, then, would apply to Lucifer, who desired to deceive men in the pre-mortal existence, and was granted his wish. Lucifer surely had no faith, but he did have knowledge.
Okay, I finished the previous comment and edited it. So, if you missed it, just re-load the page.
LDSA, in the same vein as this post, I would like to ask “why does the Gospel require children sealed to parents forming a chain back to Adam”. Also, could you give your understanding of the words of Joseph
Also, doesnt the Book of Mormon contain the fullness of the gospel which I define as “the proper protocol that one has to follow in order to be saved” and yet the BoM makes no mention of sealing to parents.
LDSA, while I was reading some random questions popped up not directly related to the meat of the post.
Q. Is “the only begotten Son” a title ? Does it have to do with how Jesus was born in mortality – the only mortal whose Father was God?
However, elsewhere on your blog you said that it is the spirit body that is placed on top on the physical body, so that when we shake hands our flesh never touches, just the spirits. And also you interpreted the “spotted with the flesh” verse to mean that the bits of flesh can be seen through the holes in the spirit of a sinner, which again indicates that the spirit is placed on top of the flesh. So, which one is it, the spirit over the flesh or vice versa?
By “get a pass” you mean “go to paradise when they die”? Does that mean that when in paradise, they will be taught the commandments of God and will realize the error of their earthly lives yet those errors will not be accounted to them as sin?
Why do think (until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever) 2Ne26:22 says “forever”. The telestial are not bound “forever”, arent they?
It’s all a tree or plant. Adam is the trunk and all of us are branches upon branches upon branches. It is a brachiating system. Adam is connected to the Deity. If you want to be part of the family of God, you’ve got to be connected to Adam.
As for the Joseph Smith quote, it’s kind of small hearted to only be concerned with the salvation of the posterity and not the salvation of the ancestors. Charity must go both ways, just as eternity goes both ways. Salvation must go forward and backward. Everyone who is connected in that brachiating tree of life must be saved, otherwise the whole tree becomes diseased and death ensues. It’s the all and or nothing principle, the “no unclean thing can get into heaven” principle, otherwise heaven becomes “unclean,” even with a single spot. The gospel gives individual salvation (we are saved individually) but it also gives group salvation (we are saved as a group.) Both types of salvation are required. You must be saved individually, but also you must be connected to the group to be saved, and if you are connected to the group, but aren’t saved individually, you get disconnected.
The Book of Mormon is concerned with individual salvation, not group salvation, which are the doctrines of the temple. THe saving doctrines of the temple for the dead didn’t and couldn’t begin until the Savior was resurrected, hence no mention of these things in the Book of Mornmon text, and when the Savior visited the Nephites, we only get a small little part of the teachings He gave them. The temple doctrines are left out, understandably, as that stuff is given in the temple, not in our canonized scriptures. The temple doctrines, and the doctrines of the priesthood, require authorized practitioners (priesthood). These things are useless to us merely written out in a text without someone authorized to perform the ordinances. So there are two ways of transmitting revealed truth: via written scriptures and via authorized priesthood practitioners. The temple rites and ordinances are things that belong to authorized practitioners, which we’ve got. But the scriptures do make mention of certain things, such as temples (the Nephites built temples) but we don’t know all that they did in them, etc. And baptism for the dead is mentioned, but the doctrine is not fleshed out. If you look at our temple rites, you see that you cannot find the whole thing anywhere written in the scriptures. This stuff is transmitted orally, through authorized priesthood practitioners. So, there are two methods employed by Deity in dishing out salvation revelation, doctrine and ordinances, just as their are two types of salvation (individual and group.) The Book of Mormon is concerned chiefly with individual salvation.
Apostates and ignorant people who hold up the Book of Mormon as the main source of truth and put down the doctrines of the temple either don’t understand what they are doing, or don’t care. You cannot sever yourself from the chosen saved group and expect to be saved.
jackdale76,
It is both. The spirit “matter” surrounds the flesh “matter,” so that what you end up with is layers of spirit surrounding fleshing on top of spirit surrounding flesh on top of flesh and so forth. Hence: spirit (top layer), flesh (next later), spirit, flesh, spirit, flesh, and so forth, each bit of element surrounded by spirit. But at the same time, these elemental bits are hollow, and what’s inside? More spirit “matter.” But to the prophetic mind, the flesh is considered clothing because we take it off of us, whereas the spirit is eternal and immortal. It doesn’t come off of us.
Yeah. It is the same as little children. They don’t know the commandments of God, either, but when they die, they go to Paradise.
No, they are not. The sons of perditions are bound forever. This verse is talking of the secret combinations which will exist in the last days. With the establishment, or re-establishment, of the two-handed condition, joining a secret combination, or upholding them, is a spiritual death sentence, since these societies are the exact opposite of the salvation offered by the gospel. They are specifically intended to cause all those that pertain to them to desire to “crucify Christ afresh” by their abominable acts. The secret combination and the great and abominable church of the last days will be one and the same organization. This is why all those that pertain to the great and abominable church until the very end, when it gets burned up as the tares, will be sons of perdition, going into that lake of fire and brimstone prepared for the devil and his angels.
Quoting OP:
Any reason why the resurrected beings cannot perform proxy ordinances?
jackdale76,
I think I covered this somewhere. I’ll look for it, but anyway my understanding is that this is the requirement. I’ll get back to you on this.
The Gods of Heaven as well as the The Gods of Earth remain false gods until and unless united/reunited in the seed or Adam Kadmon. You are The Temples of The Lord, the only place in which such a unification can occur because it has ALL all-ways been given to abide in you. You and each of “YOU” began a long time ago to split up, divide and differentiate — manifesting as Giants/Nephilim/Sons of God (imagining yourself as the Good Son who stayed up in the Heavenly House) and Little People/Gnomes/Elves etc. (identifying yourself as the Prodigal Son who learns after the pattern of the Only Begotten; that is: Descending below all things to then truly rise above them.
This is the choice which is before you at ever moment — to over-identify with the Lofty Branches and continue to give up and suck all the nutrients up to that aspect of being which is commonly viewed as Heavenly — or to over-identify with that part of Spirit which is the Roots of the Tree, commonly referred to as Earthly. The Only Way is to, as Christ, identify with all in an impartial and therefore supreme balance of being. You must pause and realize that — as Michael — you messed up when you cast off a whole third of yourself to Earth only to feel yourself as higher or above. You must realize that — as Adam — you were terribly confused and misguided in your attempts to reconnect to that from which you felt cut off. You must realize that — as Lucifer — you have poured over the writings of the scriptures and have kept the light of reason burning eternally, holding it up as proof that you have figured out or are figuring out the perfect plan, perfect way, the completely controlled method of making it in the world without loosing anything. But in holding to that light alone you have lost touch with so much.
It is time to recognize that — as Jesus — you reason together with all aspects of your being and become One. There are many, many aspects to your being and they all require embodied proxies….especially Jesus.
LDSA, going back to the idea (suggested in this post) of unclean spirits seeking rest by trying to possess bodies of mortals.
in Mark 3:23 Jesus says
implying, obviously, that Satan cannot do it.
But why can’t here? If Satan is in full control of the possessing evil spirit, why can’t Satan yank that evil spirit out of the body in order to stage a fake exorcism? That would be a powerful trick which would give the fake exorcist some credence in the eyes of the gullible.
But then the answer to that may be that Satan loses some control over the evil spirit once the spirit enters the body to the point where Satan cannot drag the evil spirit out even if he wanted to.
But if there was such a conflict of interest between Satan who wants the evil spirit out and the evil spirit who wants to remain in the possessed body, then Satan’s “kingdom [would] be divided against itself” which is an impossibility, I guess.
LDSA, another question wrt your statement in a comment above
So, your position on this blog all along has been that neither Satan nor his angels have any faith at all.
However the Bible teaches
So, what is James saying here? Does he mean that when the devils are not under the full control of Satan, they are capable of believing (ie having a particle of faith)?
jackdale76, Satan and his angels have no faith, yet they know God exists because they have no veil of forgetfulness on them. They believe there is a God because they have this knowledge and memory of Him, but they have and exercise no faith in Him. Alma taught that “faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things” and also that when knowledge is perfect, faith is dormant. But knowledge doesn’t make belief dormant. Their belief comes of knowledge: “I’ll believe it when I see it.” So, they have seen God and believe He exists. And they’ve seen God work miracles in the past, “but can He do it again?” Thus, they believe that God has performed miracles in the past, because they’ve seen Him do this. Their belief comes of knowledge and He must prove Himself again and again for them to believe He’s still got what it takes. They are doubters by very nature.
Also, the nature of things is that God does impossible things. He works miracles, and miracles are impossible things. So, the odds are all in their favor. Even when God acts and performs some miracle, the odds are always in their favor. The normal state of things is that miracles don’t happen. Ever. (Except when there is faith.) So, they are supremely confident, but have no hope. Because hope is a gospel principle. They are purely scientific. Statistical. Hope has nothing to do with it.
Thus, in this current state of affairs, for instance, in which I have prophesied that Joseph Smith must come forth and make that proclamation to some president-elect, and I have also stated that I perceive that there will be at least a decade (10 years) before the seals get unsealed, and that there will be a year for each seal, making six years for six seals, or 16 years total, before the 11 April 2033 date, and this is what I perceive, and yet we now have a President Trump who looks to be in office for the next eight years (not four), making 2024 the next possible date for a president-elect, which invalidates my perception, for only 9 and a half years would remain–all these facts play in their favor. No miracle has occurred, as yet. Joseph Smith hasn’t appeared, nor Joseph-Nephi. And even if they appeared, the time is past, right?
And thus they remain confident, right up to the point the miracle happens. Then they tremble and fear, but in between miracles they go back to being confident. And so it goes, like a drug addict. The miracle ought to snap them out of their addiction to lies, and make them speedily repent before the day of destruction and judgment arrives for them, but they are addicts who are addicted to the most destructive behavior of all: sin.
LDSA, you said
Isnt salvation predicated upon one’s level of faith rather than one’s cleanliness? If a little child or an adult who lived without the law die, through Christ’s mercy they get to go to paradise. However, they have no faith, having never exercised it while in mortality.
So, if paradise is a representation of the Kingdom of God, how can such individuals devoid of salvific faith be allowed to stay in paradise? I do realize that they will be taught in paradise. But still, from the time that they are received into paradise until the time they exercise enough faith while in paradise, there will be a certain amount of time that they are allowed to stay in paradise even though they dont have enough faith.
jackdale76,
No, salvation is only predicated upon cleanliness (justification.) Faith is only required for fallen individuals, in order to remove their sins (get clean.)
They can stay because they are clean.
LDS Anarchist,
I apologize for any redundancy…
In Romans chapter 6, it sounds like Paul first speaks to some who are baptized under the law, and those (not baptized?) who aren’t under the law. Is your understanding that those who are not under the law and under grace still required to be baptized? Also, is it your understanding that although the heathen is excused by having no law, they will still require vicarious baptism? Why wouldn’t Paul mention the need to be baptized, or to be under the law to those not under the law? Or is he implying that the law is needed, but only through the law of faith?
My understanding is that if you are under the law (baptized), and the law is activated by your faith (the law of faith?), then you are not a sinner/cursed by the law. Or perhaps in other words, we establish the carnal law through the law of faith. Also, it was only ancient Israel who were cursed by a broken law. Is that your understanding?
What is the “commandment of Christ” in JST Romans 7:9-10? Is it the gospel law?
What is the difference between the preparatory gospel and the everlasting gospel?
Thank you as always.
rightorleft1982,
To me it reads like Paul was addressing two kinds of saints: saints who didn’t know the law of Moses (in other words, direct Gentile converts), and also saints who knew the law of Moses, which is why in chapter 7, verse 1 he states:
Prior to that verse, he was also addressing saints who were Gentiles converts who didn’t know the law. And then (in chapter 7) he turned his attention specifically to the saints who knew the law. So, both type of converts are addressed in the epistle. At least, that is how I read it.
Yes, this is my understanding. The law that Paul refers to is the law of Moses. It is not necessary for a Gentile to first come under the law of Moses before coming under the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ. A Gentile convert can go right into the gospel and completely by-pass the law of Moses because Jesus fulfilled that law. Their repentance and the exercise of their faith in Christ activates God’s grace towards them.
Yes, that is also my understanding. All who have arrived at the age of accountability, and who are capable of repentance—that is, they are capable of distinguishing between good and evil when taught it, something that little children are unable to do, nor those with certain genetic conditions, such as those with Down’s Syndrome; (but anyone outside of this group, who is eight years old or older,)—must be taught the gospel and receive the ordinances themselves or vicariously, otherwise they cannot be saved.
Paul mentions baptism and also the need for baptism right at the start of chapter six:
As for your second question, there is no need to be under the law of Moses because Christ fulfilled it.
No, the law of Moses is not needed any longer, for Christ fulfilled it when He died on that cross. Paul previously taught that Christ removed the curse of the law of Moses by becoming the curse for us and then extinguishing it:
The law of Moses, when it was still in force and expedient, did not nullify the faith of the just, for the just always live by faith, and thus they are justified by their faith. Thus the Nephites kept the law of Moses, but lived according to their faith in Christ, and obtained grace and their salvation despite the law of Moses:
In other words, the law of Moses was given to the end that it would be fulfilled by Christ, pointing all those who lived the law of Moses to Christ, showing the law to be dead and the faith of Christ to be the thing that made one alive.
The law Paul speaks of in Romans is the law of Moses. The law of Moses had nothing to do with faith. It was based upon works alone, which is why salvation didn’t come by the law of Moses, for all fall short of its requirements (save Christ alone.) But the exercise of faith allows us to establish the works of whatsoever law we are given (including the law of Moses) and this is what is required of the saints, as Paul taught in this epistle:
All laws given by God come with blessings and curses, based upon one’s obedience or disobedience, and that goes even with the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, obedience to a law of God brings blessings, whereas disobedience brings a curse. If you break a law of God, you get cursed; however in regard to the law of Moses, no one gets cursed by it any longer because Jesus fulfilled it by becoming the curse for us, taking it completely away. So now we can obey God’s commandments and the laws of the gospel of Jesus Christ without worrying about what the law of Moses says.
The phrase “the curse of a broken law” comes from Mormon’s teaching found in Moroni 8, not from Paul:
Whatever true principle you receive in life, that you reject or break, will end up cursing you to some extent. That true principle condemns you and brings you under the curse of its broken law. Those who are not taught the gospel law, or other laws that God has given, will be judged according to whatever true principle they received in life, and how they responded to it, but they all must obtain the gospel ordinances and be taught the gospel law, either here and they themselves or vicariously in the next life, so that God may judge them according to this principle:
Therefore all the gospel works (the gospel ordinances) must be done for all mankind.
Yes, that is my understanding.
The scripture defines the preparatory gospel in this way:
The gospel fulness (or everlasting gospel), then, is everything that is above and beyond that.
Moroni has this to say about who is capable of committing sin and who should be taught baptism…
“Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized…” (Moroni 8:10)
…the PARENTS…