The daughters of Zion shall rule over the people of the Lord


Mormon Heretic wrote in a comment on another blog:

Paul told us that we should “covet to prophesy” (1 Cor 14:39)

Numbers 11:29, And Moses said unto him,

Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Why can’t the people be prophets and receive revelation? Paul and Moses weren’t opposed to the idea.

Yes, why can’t they, indeed?  So, in that spirit, I will share a few observations and you can determine whether this is given by the spirit of prophecy and revelation.

Isaiah 3

Isaiah chapters 2-14 were quoted by Nephi because these prophecies would be fulfilled again in the last days. How do we know this?

But behold, I proceed with mine own prophecy, according to my plainness; in the which I know that no man can err; nevertheless, in the days that the prophecies of Isaiah shall be fulfilled men shall know of a surety, at the times when they shall come to pass.

Wherefore, they are of worth unto the children of men, and he that supposeth that they are not, unto them will I speak particularly, and confine the words unto mine own people; for I know that they shall be of great worth unto them in the last days; for in that day shall they understand them; wherefore, for their good have I written them. (2 Nephi 25:7–8)

Now, with this understanding, what do we find in Isaiah 3, which was quoted by Nephi?

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa. 3:12)

Isaiah then goes on to describe these daughters of Zion that rule over the people. Nephi later launches his own prophecy of the same events, but in much plainer language. I notice some similarities between Nephi’s prophecy of the apostate churches of God in 2 Nephi 28 and Isaiah’s prophecy of the wicked daughters of Zion in Isaiah 3.

Isaiah says,

“The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

“What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord God of hosts.”  (Isa. 3:14-15)

Nephi says,

They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.”  (2 Ne. 28:13)

Isaiah says,

“Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:”  (Isa. 3:16)

Nephi says,

“They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.”  (2 Ne. 28:14)

Isaiah prophesies at length about the jewelry, ornaments and fine clothing of the wicked daughters of Zion who rule the Lord’s people. (See Isa. 3:18-23.)  Nephi also mentions “fine clothing.”

So, I wonder if women at some point will receive the same priesthood that is given to the men, becoming “rulers,” and then beautify the church buildings and themselves from the coffers of the poor?

1 Samuel 8

There is a principle under which this can be accomplished, found in 1 Samuel 8.  That chapter’s heading gives a good summary of its content.

The Israelites seek for a king to rule over them—Samuel rehearses the nature and evils of kingly rule—The Lord consents to give them a king.

There are currently some Mormons using the Internet to call for the ordination of women to the priesthood.  Should their voices become more vocal and widely publicized, there is the possibility that the First Presidency may respond, perhaps by issuing a statement, perhaps by inquiring of the Lord.

If the Lord says, “No,” there is the possibility that these voices will not accept the Lord’s answer in humility and submit to His will and pleasure, but instead will keep petitioning for change until the Lord finally consents, just like Joseph Smith did with Martin Harris and the 116 manuscript pages, or like the children of Israel did in 1 Samuel 8 when the Lord finally consented and gave them a king.

Another possibility (and I think the more likely) is that this change will happen after the breakup of the church, when the churches descend into all manner of iniquity.  I’m just beginning to make prophetic sense of this and cannot, as yet, see it clearly enough to make that precise determination, but at the very least, it appears to me that the seeds for the fulfillment of the ruling daughters of Zion prophecy have already been sown and are starting to grow.  Take that however you will.

Because of this prophetic spirit, in which I sense where this is heading, I am inclined to view the current calls to ordain women to the male priesthood orders as not inspired of God.  Regardless of their egalitarian nature and sincerity, these voices do not strike me as desirous to know the will of God and to do it, but to bend the will of God to their own wills.  Others are simply caught up in the conversation with no dog in the fight one way or another, just with a desire to do the will of God, whatever that may be.

Ultimately, all this recent online talk may come to nothing (except maybe more dissensions, discord and division) because of the prophetic cycle—where the spirit of prophecy descends, makes a prediction based on current conditions, the conditions then change, the prophecy remains unfulfilled, then the conditions change again and it is fulfilled every whit—but because of this very cycle, I thought to leave these thoughts here on this blog.

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44 Comments

  1. I appreciate this post. Thank you.

    In my small mind, I look at Isaiah 3:12 in this way;

    As a man of God, I did not want my divorce. My ex wanted it. Because of who I am, I love my children dearly. That love I have for them has caused me to fight for them in the divorce. How oppressing is that?!! Through my love for them, I am oppressed by my children. (For example, in the movie, “The Green Mile” the character (Percy Wetmore) who killed those two blonde white sisters, did so because he had told each of them that he would kill the other if either of them screamed. Thus paraphrasing the big black man’s (John Coffey) words who tried to save them, ” He was able to kill them because they stayed quiet out of their love for each other”.

    I know in other cases, children oppress their parents by running all over them because this nation encourages that behavior.

    Because of the govt usurping God’s authority where divorce is concerned, my ex wife rules over the children and I because the usurping judge gives her that power to rule over us.

    Govt AND church leaders who “lead” me are causing me(us) to err and are definitely destroying the way of my path!

  2. Just yesterday I had a lengthy running debate on facebook with one of the main movers and shaker of the movement to give the priesthood to women.

    I found her to be quite oppresive in her demands, very unscriptual and she didnot address any of my questions with scripture or sound reasoning.

    Her claim to is that her and her husband had near death experiences and were instructed by God among other things that women should hold the priesthood.

    I am going to challenge her to a debate on Mormon Anarchy, wish me luck that she will accept.

  3. LDSA,

    I really hate to talk about the mall, but could the current LDS Church be guilty of “grind[ing] the faces of the poor?”

    As for women ruling, what do you make of the wording in the temple that women shall be queens and priestesses?

    Bruce R. McConkie wrote “Those women who go on to their exaltation, ruling and reigning with husbands who are kings and priests, will themselves be queens and priestesses. They will hold positions of power, authority, and preferment in eternity.” Is this a contradiction of Nephi?

  4. The Risk ogf Abuse Of Authority Is Present In Every Ordination And wouldn’t IncreaseByExtending Them To Women. Have YouSeen How The GA’s Dress? Their Fine Apparel Is Extremely Costly Its Not A Problem Unique To Women. Look At Bednars Rings And Cuff Links. Needs MoreReasoning Than “WhatIf Ladies Are Bad?”

  5. The Temples And Conferences Centers And Mall and COB Have AllBeen Beautified At Great Expense Already. Its Not SomethingWomen Will Do, Women (And Men) BeingProud And Wearing Costly Apparel Is Made Easier By Seeing The waste Of Sacred Funds All Around Them

  6. What Leads You To Believe That The Daughters Of Zion Described Are The Same Women That “Rule Over ThEm”?

  7. Women oppress men in retaliation for the inequality and control of men who put women on pedestals, while denying them equality. Women have the full priesthood of God, simply upon baptism, but its not recognized by the evil traditions of men. You have misinterpreted the prophesies of Isaiah to satisfy your own pathetic MALE-dominated tradition of having authority over women. Women and Blacks held the priesthood in the early PURE years of the priesthood. Joseph Smith failed to heed God’s warning to him against doing “his own will and carnal desires or he would FALL!” (D&C 3:1-11). Joseph Smith used polygamy to justify his whoremongering (adultery with Fanny Alger, caught in the barn) and he did FALL. Award-winning LDS historian, D. Michael Quinn proves the FALL of Joseph Smith with documented evidence of Joseph Smith’s repentance. “Abominable” Polygamy suppresses women (Jacob 2:23-24, 35) no matter WHO practices it! “Satanic” Masonry suppresses women (Moses 5:29) and thus, women (and Blacks) had their rightful responsibility of the priesthood “taken away” from them (not in God’s eyes to the condemnation of all white Masons). Women hold the priesthood, we just have to fight for that recognition, along with the prophetic Cleansing of the Mormon Church (D&C 112, 124, 64, 1 Ne 13) due to its “follies and abominations”. My book is entitled, “The Great and MOST Abominable: The Prophetic Cleansing of the Mormon Church” Google it. Get it. Read it IF you choose to learn TRUTH over tradition. Masonry is EVIL and the suppression of women is EVIL. Masonry requires a blood oath of loyalty, which Christ warned us to “NEVER swear an oath as it comes of EVIL!”. (In response to your ignorant support of Masonry which came from Satan’s requirement of Cain to keep a secret and then given a “new name” (Moses 5:29)) WOMEN DESERVE the recognition of the priesthood, since God is NOT about ELITISM or the suppression of women to be controlled by MEN! I don’t have time to respond to those stupid enough to support their traditional teachings that oppress women! Become as a child willing to be taught. originalbookofmormonrestored has great info for you to learn, and we can send you a free Daniel’s Timeline for those who want to know more about these End Times. Don’t bother commenting in opposition to the equality and fairness that I represent. I’ll just view your comments as ignorant, self-centered, and not of God!

  8. Can you seek truth over tradition? Lucifer has influenced this earth for 6,000 years tainting the teachings of almost all Prophets, including Joseph Smith (Brigham historically admitted that he was NOT a prophet LOL) The teachings that remain pure are those teachings of Mormon, Nephi I, Abinadi (gave his life), Isaiah, Jacob (warned against polygamy), Micah, etc. Not all prophets were on the same level of knowledge and/or purity. Peter and Paul were not of God’s mind as seen with the Saviors’ rebuke of Peter as “Satan” (AND denied Him thrice) and Jesus correctly foretold Peter and the other apostles (male) falling away. Peter (and Paul) were of Satan, because they hated women according to their pathetic traditions. The male apostles all fell (just as Christ foretold). Peter was jealous of Mary and she was shipped away with the hope she’d die at sea. Thus, those KEYS of baptism and authority were LOST from the FIRST Great and Abominable Church (2nd, of course, was the Catholic Church and 3rd, LDS Inc as foretold in 1 Ne 13). The early Mormon Church aka PURE Mormonism, held the KEYS for a short time when the priesthood was held by MEN AND WOMEN (and Blacks) and then the church became cursed as stated in D&C 124, 64, 112, 2 Ne 28, etc.. .I’ve seen the Savior because I have a pure heart ~twice witnessed by others and my husband did have a profound NDE! The truth is simple and pure without elitism or evil traditions of men! Everything I teach can be supported by the plain and precious teachings of Jesus. Why do you think he hated the Pharisees and Saduccees? They pridefully held the so-called KEYS, but were not of God! Don’t defend satanic Masonry (God is about truth and full disclosure not so-called “sacred” secrets, since we know the Millennium is about “no more secrets” as God’s Spirit removes the evil traditions of men,their “secret” evil clubs and Secret Combinations). Don’t defend polygamy/whoremongering, which has always been abominable unto God not matter who practices it ~ David, Solomon, Jacob, Abram as “men of old” (Jacob 2:35). And don’t defend the inequality of women (and Blacks) seen with the removal of their God-given right of non-elitism PRIESTHOOD~! Please don’t be ignorant, biased against women or stupid based on your traditions of man, while ignoring the “plain and precious” truths of the identity of God (Alma 11:23-40, Ether 3:14, Mosiah 15:1-5 and the original BoM) and His demand for equality of all people, with women holding the Priesthood. The Priestcraft practiced by men condemns all men who hold to the “secrets” of Masonry and inequality.

  9. Mormon Heretic,

    Regardless of how one sees the mall (and some see it as a good thing, while others see it as a bad thing), the church still engages in many acts of charity through the fast offerings and humanitarian works. So the “grind upon the faces of the poor” prophecy is not wholly fulfilled in our day and still pertains to the future. When these prophecies are fulfilled every whit, it will be on the same order of magnitude as the Zoramites of the Book of Mormon, who cast out the poor from their congregation, etc.

    Re: the temple wording. It is obvious that at some point the Lord will bestow a priesthood order or orders upon His daughters. But these will not be the male priesthood orders. The restoration of all things requires that all things be brought together in one in Christ, including the things of heaven. So, it is to be expected that there will be a restoration of female priesthood orders at some point, (and I suppose it will likely come through the restoration of the tribal functions,) but women seeking the male priesthood orders is a perversion which will cause a curse to come upon the people. Nobody is authorized to “take priesthood” unto themselves. It must be given by God in the proper manner and at the proper time, according to the wisdom and revelations of God.

    The only thing we see in the scriptures, in those places that explicitly speak of priesthood, are male priesthood orders. We look to the Old Testament and only see a male priesthood order. We look to the Book of Mormon and only see a male priesthood order. We look to the Doctrine and Covenants and only see a male priesthood order. We look to the Pearl of Great Price and only see a male priesthood order. We look to the New Testament and only see a male priesthood order. Although some will take this or that verse and say it may be referring to a female leader, and thus with the implication of priesthood being bestowed, none of such passages are explicit in stating priesthood was bestowed. A person can speculate all they want, but the scriptures only explicitly show male priesthood orders.

    Nevertheless, it is plain that the daughters of God will receive an order or orders of the priesthood at some point, but it will not be the male priesthood orders. Since we have no revelation on these points, concerning how these female priesthood orders will operate, their duties and organization, offices, their relationship to the male priesthood orders, etc., we don’t have any idea of what shape and form they will take. Nor do we have authority to do anything about it. The prophet is no more authorized to ordain women to a male priesthood order than a Protestant preacher. We would need more revelation on these matters because the only revelation we have deals with male priesthood orders.

    Now, we know that Joseph intended to restore these female orders because of the organization of the Relief Society, for if he had intended the females to be incorporated into the male priesthood orders he would have just conferred the priesthood on them and placed them into the male quorums. But he didn’t do that. He created a separate organization altogether. So the intention to create the female orders was obviously there, despite not being brought to completion, for we still have no idea as to how a female priesthood order operates, how it is conferred, its duties and limitations, or even what its name is to be.

    So, again, anyone in the church (or in any tribe) that attempts to incorporate females into male priesthood orders, or that attempts to create a female priesthood order without revelation and authorization of the Lord, will be cursed. Tribes are free, of course, to pattern themselves after the priesthood and create female councils, etc., until such time as the Lord formally organizes them into a bona fide order of the priesthood. But it will come of new revelation, from authorized prophets, seers or revelators, etc.

  10. you said “So, I wonder if women at some point will receive the same priesthood that is given to the men, becoming “rulers,” and then beautify the church buildings and themselves from the coffers of the poor?”

    I have had a few dreams with a reoccurring theme pertaining to this idea. I hadn’t equated it with “women ruling over them” as Isaiah puts it. After following President Eyring through several symbolic scenes with a desire to ask him a simple question and he evading me. I finally tracked him down at a privately catered luncheon with several other general authorities present, some of whom I recognized and others I did not, some now living and others dead. I approached President Eyring and instead of bothering with the question which I now understood he didn’t have the answer, I kindly tapped him on the chest and said,”I found you”. Upon considering the meaning of the dream, I appeared in our local church building. My son and I were helping to put away chairs following some function. As I explained some of the meaning of the dream to my son, we walked through the church. When to my suprise, instead of the familiar orange motif of our normal primary room, I found myself wandering through finely decorated, colorfully( and quite tasteful I might add) and well furnished with couches and paintings. Confused, as I thought that I was in our building and I knew in fact that it had been, I left.

    I have had some thoughts and know some of the meaning. I haven’t include many of the details of the first part, but the finely adorned building that I saw was not the temple nor was it the building that we attend our meetings as it now is. Any one with the interpretation is free to expound if by the spirit.

  11. While it is quite obvious there are women in the LDS church who are oppressing their husbands. It’s equally obvious that they are oppressing other women (widows) and children (orphans) with their “need” for material possessions. These “needs” are outweighing the needs of the poor. The church won’t ever be ready for the higher law of consecration until this kind of greed is overcome. Telling these single mothers to get a job to support their families is one of the greatest ills in our society. In fact it may be the greatest. And now these selfish women want to get the title of Queen. They can give themselves all the titles they want, but only God can truly pronounce any man or woman King or Queen.

    Women have a lot of leverage to lean on with this verse:

    “For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.”
    (2 Nephi 26:33)

    If it was a crime to keep the Priesthood from the blacks, then it’s a crime to keep it from women. It’s a solid logical argument.

  12. LDSA: if god gave a revelation outlining the ordination of blacks to the priesthood why is it so unlikely he would give one outlining the organization of female quorums? I would believe we are in a similar situation now as we were before that revelation was received, there is not a majority of the quorum of the twelve fasting and praying to know God’s will on the subject. While i agree that women should have their quorums organized in the manner god describes and not merely join the male quorums, you write as if this has already happened and it’s a huge abomination. The quorums and priesthood in general are in a crazy state already, clearly contrary to the revelations and early history (do we really think god intended ordinations to be based on age? Or that we should spend 2 years each as deacon teacher and priest and up to 40 as elder?) in my opinion women usurping the priesthood wouldn’t be even close to a big deal compared with the other problems in the church and at the very least would at least help to curb rampant sexism and we wouldn’t have to require missionaries to act as branch and district presidents. However, i would say calling the idea of women being ordained “not of god” might be going a little too far. We have yet to hear from him on the subject

  13. Karen Davis has certainly given me/us alot of insight as to her doctrinal views. I would like to ask you Karen how it is that you can receive a fullness of priesthood with nothing more than baptisim?

    The Aronic priesthood holds the keys of baptisim D&C 107, so if I understand you correctly you can be baptized by the Aronic priesthood and come out of the water endowed with Melchezedek authority?

    If I have missed something please feel free to correct me! The prophet Joseph said that a man must sacrifice all that he has to receive a fullness of priesthood. That seems to be at odds with your position, also the “gift of the Holy Ghost seems to be essential in teaching us our duties as priesthood holders.

    I think before I ask anymore questions of you I would like hear your answers on these simple observations.

    I would like apologize to you for my harsh intro. of you in my pre-statements. Any how I am SORRY! Haveing said that I must say to you that you need to understand because of the stand and work you have sought to undertake you will be under intense scrutny. It is not a light thing to rearange history and Gods restored church/gospel. I wish you the best of luck.

  14. I don’t know why we don’t see men griping about not being able to bear children. We all should be equal shouldn’t we? Isn’t it an unfair God who wouldn’t allow men to have children? Maybe after God grants women the Priesthood, he’ll grant men the ability to bear children. After all God is ever changing his mind about things. He never can be too sure if he’s right or not.

  15. Anonymous @ 3:21 pm,

    LDSA: if god gave a revelation outlining the ordination of blacks to the priesthood why is it so unlikely he would give one outlining the organization of female quorums?

    I’m not saying that is unlikely. Actually, I’m saying just the opposite, that it is likely that at some point He will organize them into orders. However, if the people lobby for these changes, using their church keys to force the issue before the appointed time, the Lord will give them the perversion that they demand, despite the manner not being in accord with the will of God, and it will be to their detriment, which will end up fulfilling these prophecies. The priesthood can function as a blessing or as a curse. In this case, it will be a curse to them, because they demand something that is not appointed to them.

    That said, there will be other groups of women who are ordained by God and organized into female orders, who will not be cursed nor fulfill these prophecies and the priesthood will be a blessing to them because it will have been appointed to them and they will have entered into it at the proper time and in the proper manner, according to the will of God.

    I might also add that the role of a revelator, or prophet, or seer, has a duality. On the one hand, the revelator must act as the Lord’s mouthpiece, revealing the will and word of the Lord to His people. Acting in this function, his loyalties side with the Lord. On the other hand, the revelator acts as the mouthpiece of the people, taking their questions and concerns to Him in prayer, that he may obtain the will and word of the Lord on their issues. In such cases, the revelator’s loyalties still side with the Lord. As a priest, he also pleads with the Lord in behalf of the people, that the Lord bless them and forgive them of their iniquities and not curse them for them.

    We see the “people’s mouthpiece function” with Jared and his brother, Jared asking him to take a question or supplication to the Lord and his brother pleading the case of the people before the Lord. So there is nothing wrong with asking the sustained revelators to ask the Lord if the time has come to organize the women into female priesthood orders. But this is not the spirit of these affairs, for these questions are not based upon doing the will of the Lord, but in sowing discord and dissension and in accusing the brethren of injustice because of the existence of only male priesthood orders, which orders are ordained of God. So, this is not inspired of God, but it will still bear fruit in a future day and they will get what they want, but instead of saving them, it will damn them.

    On the tribal front, there may be a people who humble themselves before God and sanctify themselves and who ask God, after they are sanctified, to reveal His will as to whether the time has come and in what manner the female priesthood orders may take, and He may appoint it to those people in righteousness, because they have exercised faith unto repentance and sanctified themselves before Him.

    There is a world of difference between approaching God from a position of humility and simply making demands based upon the philosophies of men while remaining in your un-justified and un-sanctified state, wanting to have the same “equal priesthood status” as other churches. This is what ancient Israel desired, to have a king like the iniquitous nations around them, and so the Lord gave them one despite it not being His will, and they suffered as a result and it became a curse to them.

  16. For those that know me it is no mystery that I am of a firm mind that the LDS leadership never received a revelation to give the priesthood of the LDS church to the blacks. And I am also of the same mind that they will not receive one for women, now that doesn’t mean they wont give it anyhow,just as in the future I am sure they will give full status to gay and lesbians.

    Do you all see a patern here? there is nothing these psuedo leaders wont fall for,

    A question that I ask all of these groups is why don’t you just start your own church? Why do you think the saints want to give you full fellowship? Are you all so ensecure you can’t do anything on your own, do you not think that God will bless you with sucess?

    My children are all active LDS members, but the moment they see a couple of adult men knacking on each other in church it will be over, or when my sons got to be interviewed or counciled by a women priesthood advisor.

    Call it what you like but there are somethings that just go without saying, people have a inate intelligence when somethings just aren’t Kosher!

  17. The prophet Joseph ordained his wife Emma as is recorded in D&C 25:7

    Emma was only set apart as Relief Society President, because she had been previously ordained when that revelation (Sec. 25) was given, her two councilors were ordained and set apart because they had not yet been ordained.

    On March 30, 1842 Joseph said to the Relief Society that “he was going to make of this society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch’s day–as in Paul’s day”.’Nauvoo Relief Society Minutes’

    Joseph also gave instructions on priesthood to the female relief society, speaking of “delivering the Keys to this society, and to the church” April 28, 1842 ‘Nauvoo Relief Society Minutes’

  18. brandnu11,

    I noticed your avatar says “One Mighty and Strong”. Do you believe yourself to be this man?

  19. Jon,

    In the modern vernacular, we use the word ordain to mean only priesthood ordination to a particular priesthood office. We use the word confer to indicate that the priesthood has been given. And we use set apart to indicate that someone has been appointed/consecrated/dedicated to a particular ministerial function, not necessarily having anything to do with a priesthood office.

    In the time of Joseph Smith, though, these terms weren’t so tightly used as they are today. So, here is what ordain and confer meant during Joseph’s day. And here are a bunch of words that also had shades of meaning that meant set apart. The list includes anoint, dedicate, devote, consecrate, hallow, elect, sanctify, etc.

    So, when D&C 25:7 says that Emma shall be ordained, it does not necessarily mean that she had a priesthood conferred upon her. It also could mean what set apart means to us today, hence the footnote saying “OR set apart.” D&C 20:65 also uses ordain in the same sense as setting people apart for whatsoever church office, not necessarily meaning a priesthood office. All the callings in the church are considered to have an office attached them. So the scriptures speak of “the office of thy calling.” A church janitor is called (the calling) to be the janitor (office). In the modern vernacular, we have specialized these terms, so that calling can refer to priesthood and non-priesthood callings and offices only pertain to priesthood offices, but in the time of Joseph Smith, an office was your church calling title and could refer to priesthood or non-priesthood.

    I realize that Zo-ma-rah has brought up some interesting information, but simply laying hands on someone and saying, “I ordain and set you apart as a Relief Society president/councilor” does not confer priesthood. These words can mean the same thing or have slightly different shades (for example, ordain can mean to appoint, and set apart can mean to consecrate). Who knows exactly how Joseph was using these terms? What is known is that there is no evidence or witness that any priesthood was ever conferred. The expressed desire or plan to organize them as a society of priests does not mean it came to fruition. In fact, the evidence is in favor that it never happened. Although early Relief Societies practiced healings and gifts, they never did so by any priesthood, but by their faith. No claim to priesthood was ever made or assumed, not then nor now. Ask any member of the modern Relief Societies and they will deny that they have any priesthood connected with the Society.

    Ask any ordained man the same and he will unequivocally say that he has priesthood and will give you his priesthood line of authority to prove it. No woman claims to have any such line, which is evidence that there is no line, because they never got any priesthood. Although it is a romantic notion that Joseph gave them something, it doesn’t appear to have been a priesthood order. Also, the keys Joseph gave them were likely keys of knowledge, wisdom, etc., and not what we today would call “priesthood keys.”

    One more thing, to the prophetic mind all the offices of the church are priesthood offices, for they are authorized using the priesthood. No one performs any function in the church without first having hands laid upon them. So even the office of a “church janitor” is technically an office of the priesthood. But that does not mean that the janitor has had priesthood conferred on him or her. So, to avoid confusion, we designate one type of office as a priesthood office and another type as a church calling. But it all pertains to the priesthood if it is authorized by the priesthood.

  20. Anonmous @ 9:57 am,

    I’m sorry I missed your question. I’ll answer it now.

    What Leads You To Believe That The Daughters Of Zion Described Are The Same Women That “Rule Over ThEm”?

    Mormon Heretic asked, “Why can’t the people be prophets and receive revelation?” And I answered, “Yes, why can’t they, indeed? So, in that spirit, I will share a few observations and you can determine whether this is given by the spirit of prophecy and revelation.” I wrote the post according to what I perceived while being in that spirit. That includes the very title of the post, “The daughters of Zion shall rule over the people of the Lord.”

  21. LDS Anarchist,

    All priesthood is provisional until at least the complete 2nd anointing has been given authoritatively to the individual, and may not even be then, it also requires “another comforter, that he abide with you forever”,…. “Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more or less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself & and this is the sum & substance of the whole matter, and when he(or she) obtains this last comforter he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him(or her) or appear unto him from time to time. &even he will manifest the Father unto him(or her) & they will take up their abode with him., according to the Prophet Joseph. Read June 27, 1939 discourse by Joseph, I read it in my copy of “The Words of Joseph Smith”,the contemporary accounts of the Nauvoo discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith by Ehat and Cook, 1980 ed. pg 5

    Regarding the ordinance of 2nd anointing, Joseph referred to it on Aug 27, 1843 “How will god come to the rescue of this generation. he shall send Elijah law revealed to Moses in Horeb–never was revealed to the C of Israel and he shall reveal the covenants to seal the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers.–anointing & sealing–called elected and made sure without father&c.a priesthood which holds the priesthood by right from the Eternal Gods,–and not be descent from father and mother.” These were the contemporaneous notes in the ‘Joseph Smith Diary’, kept by Willard Richards. The disjointed way the notes were taken indicate to me that they were contemporaneous, “The Words of Joseph Smith” Ehat and Cook 1980 ed., pg 244. and on the next page 245, Franklin D. Richards records on the same discourse, after addressing the first two of the “3 grand principles or orders of priesthood portrayed in this chapter (Heb chapter 7) “1st Levitical…. ” “2nd Abrahams Patriarchal power which is the greatest yet experienced in this church”, the “3rd that of Melchisedec who had still greater power even the power of an enless life of which our Lord Jesus Christ which also Abraham obtained by the offering of his son Isaac which was not the power of a Prophet nor apostle nor Patriarch only but of King & Priest to God to open the windows of Heaven and pour out the peace & Law of endless Life to man & no man can attain to the Joint heirship with Jesus Christ without being administered to by one having the same power & Authority of Melchisedec”…

    Now more on the ordinances of the house of the Lord including the 2nd anointing;

    “It is a precept of the Church that women of the Church share the authority of the Priesthood with their husbands, actual or prospective; and therefore women whether taking the endowment for themselves, or for the dead, are not ordained to a specific rank in the Priesthood. Nevertheless there is no grade or rank or phase of the temple endowment to which women are not eligible on an equality with men. True, there are certain of the higher ordinances to which an unmarried women cannot be admitted, but the rule is equally in force as to the bachelor.” James E Talmage, The House of the Lord, p95

    On Sept 28th, 1843 Joseph and Emma received the fulness of priesthood. “Joseph and Emma received the anointing and ordination ‘of the highest and holiest order of the priesthood” (Joseph Smith Diary , 28 September, 1843, church archives)

    According to “Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, prophets wife, “elect lady”, polygamy’s foe” by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery 1984,

    Benjamin F Johnson and Newell K Whitney were sent on and errand one last time by Brigham Young in 1845 to Emma the Prophets widow, to try to convince her to come west with them, I have heard that Brigham had already proposed marriage to her, she replied to the two brethern if I can be the leading spirit in the church. I don’t have the page number or the book in my possession, however in the past have seen it.

    Emma knew her authority (her priesthood) exceeded that of Brigham Young.

  22. Thre are so many out there that claim that Joseph Smith realized that he had sinned in bringing forth and practiceing polygamy. and was in the act or process of repenting when he was murdered. I don’t buy that for one second.

    If Joseph Smith fell, a spiritual giant, then what chance do all of you have? The very thought aught to scare the pants off of all of you,
    Do you think faced with the same tasks that Joseph faced you would do better? You that have judged him have never been in his position. It’s fine to disagree but don’t marr his vissage any more than it has.

    There is a push by a gaggle of latter Day Saint women that want the church to extend to them the priesthood. One of their points being that men can’t be trusted because even a great leader such as Joseph Smith could not control his lebido. So in essence it is not just the priesthood that they want but also the reigns of the church.

    I suppose that all of us men could become eunechs and let the women take over, after all they are so much more sensitve and compassionate. In my estimation this would collapse the church even faster than the desegregation of the priesthood. The majority of the blacks could care less about the church, but the women, ah! now that is a different story! You will find that here is a element of militant women that is absolutely relentless, they think their salvation depends upon it.

    It will be so much easier for the gay community to gain headway to full fellowship in the church if women are in control, women tend to do things more on the impulse of emotion than sound reasoning.
    When the current leadership of the church are faced with the choice of either allowing homosexuals full fellow ship in to the church or back peddling on a long held psuedo interpretation of “honoring and sustaining the law of the land”, I can see them receiveing a revelation to place a women as the president of the church. Then they can as a group bail and wash there hands of the whole mess. If the pope can do it then why can’t the wonderful brethern?

    so Joseph had a few wives! I don’t know why Oliver Cowdery called Joseph’s relationship with Fanny Algers “a dirty filthy little affair”, where did Oliver get the right to judge? Im sure Joseph loved her, probably smitten by her beauty and charm! Wouldn’t Emma be happy for Joseph? What right did Oliver have to interfere with Love? Who is to say that Emma wasn’t happy to have more children and under the “law of Sara” those are her children/grand children. And I am sure God was pleased to have more spirits receive bodies. So was Emma so prideful that she couldn’t handle the relationship? I give Emma more credit than that.

    All of those that are adamately against plural marriage need to expouse all of the wonders of monogamy! Like what is the divorce rate? The suicde rate? the homocide rate? Infantcide rate? People locked into a prison type marriage and can’t get out when all options are cut off will resort to many ugly things. And for the record when i say polygamy I really mean polygany.

    As far as I can see monogamy gives ownership of one human being over another, the most dominate or aggresive partner will eventually take control of both lives.And/or they end up underscoreing each other shortcomings. And now with the church endorseing the family courts, child protective services, monogamy is subjected to all kinds of pitfals not that plural marriage is out of their sights either. The point being that marriage should be between God and female/male consenting adults.
    Most couples in Monogamy more or less stumbled into each other and had few other oppurtunities. So out of necessity became compatible no matter how painful it was.

    I believe that there is a lot more insentive in polygany for men and women to improve their selves, to deveolp their talents, to be a positve influence for the group. In group marriage there is no gurantee that any individual will have the oppurtunity to be intimate with another. This same competetion does not exist in monogamy. Now for sure there are monogamous relationships that work for many, and I say good for them, they won the lottery! But don’t push your ideologies on everyone.

  23. just recently it was reported that we live in a fractile universe, the ramifications of this finding are mind boggleing.

    This means that the universe is a hologram, and such every piece of that hologram is a fractile and each fractile represents the whole.

    Each person is a piece of the hologram and is able to influence or shape a fractile and by doing so shape the whole hologram.

    Ones ability to shape this hologram is directly proportional to the size of their conciousness. Conciousness is a difficult thing to define. I think I would define it as awareness, with God being a perfect example of awareness.

    Jesus Christ placed a fractile in the universal hologram and advanced the whole, with forgiveness and the resurection “I make all things new” the universe will meet the measure of its creation, it shall always honor a fractile of a higher awareness/conciousness.

    If one were to “bind up the law and seal up the testimony” that fractile would change the universal hologram to a higher order.After that witness “Then cometh the end” Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith were commisioned to “bind up the law and seal up the tetimony.”

    The suffering servants fulfilled their commisions by sacrifice so that they may be touched with the infirmitys of all men. A highway has come up out of the great deep that all men may travel.

  24. Jon,

    Apparently Brigham Young received the second anointing on 11 January 1846, so he received the fulness of the priesthood (in reality the rights to the fulness of the priesthood) after Emma did, so you are, in a sense, correct, to say that her authority exceeded his in this particular, at that particular time.

    But according to the second page I linked to,

    The couple receives a “charge” as a part of the second anointing. Part of the covenant involved in this charge is that they do not reveal to other individuals that they have received this ordinance.

    This effectively nullifies any authority they may have to direct the affairs of the church by virtue of their anointing. Should they reveal that they have received it, they have broken the covenant. Should they keep silent, they cannot assert their authority. So, second anointings are of a personal nature and have no authority whatsoever to direct the affairs of the church, nor perform any labors or ordinances by virtue of that anointing and order of the priesthood. Such authority to direct the church lies solely with the elders of the church.

    With this understanding then, we see that Emma made a mistake in not submitting to the authority of Brigham Young, as do all those who continue to assume and preach that the second anointing confers authority over the church. It most certainly does not.

    This is all according to the doctrine of the orders of the priesthood. I don’t feel in the right mind set to expound it right now. Perhaps I will a little later, in a comment or in a separate post. In the meantime, I hope what I’ve written will suffice.

  25. brandnu11,

    It is interesting that you bring up the holographic stuff. I posted a comment on the Wheat and Tares blog on March 14, 2013 at 2:31 PM in which I proposed that the Universe had a holographic nature. But I wasn’t aware of this new research. Do you have a link to the data?

    This next part is for Justin and concerns what was discussed in the comments of that Wheat and Tares post regarding there being no copies. I stumbled upon D&C 130:11 today and saw that it gives the same “no copies” doctrine. If you rewind the time to the beginning it works quite well, the white stone being the elemental part of our nature, speaking of the most fundamental bits. I suppose I could unfold this more, but I don’t want to distract any more from the topic of this post, so I’ll stop.

  26. LDS Anarchist,

    If you google “holographic universe” tons of stuff come up, the specific one that I was thinking of was on AOL and I was not able to find it.

    I will take this time to add a few things to this concept.

    Human beings have a limitless potential to influence the divine matrix or universal hologram. D&C 101: 54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready…..

    In quantum phsyics the double split experiment and the “observer” is well known, in essence the observer simply by observing collapses the waves of potential to a particle. In this case the particles were photons. Photons are light particles that carry in-formation and depending on the in-formation contained in the photon determines the creation of the fractile.

    Think of it like you are a dvd, when a laser (light) strikes the dvd it picks up the stored information and delivers it to electronics to be displayed on the screen or monitor.

    Our dna are much like very sophisticated biological computers, storeing and emiting light particles exceeding the speed of light. See Dan Winter and DNA, when emitted they also penetrate the divine matrix in the form of “scalar waves” carrying our lifes experiences and lessons to create a fractile.

    At least those who have something more in the way of righteousness to add will create a fractile of a higher order to influence or change the divine matrix/universal hologram.

    As i see it the only thing that limits are ability to change the divine matrix is our limited conciouusness. This is why I am so adamit about erasing mental disconnects to let the free flow of spirit through our “merkaba” or firey chariot. When we do this we are plugged in and are in a state of “uploading/downloading” into the mother board of all creation. When we present a fractile of a higher order it acts like a computer virus in the matrix slowly takeing over and down loading this info to all righteous beings.

    Isaiah 28;2…….which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand. 10: For precept must be upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.17: Judgement also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall oveflow the hiding place.

  27. LDS Anarchist,

    Heber C Kimball said the Church of the Firstborn was organized in Kirtland OH. Brigham, Heber and others were there when that was done. See JD 5:130-131

    The first ordinances of the Temple were accomplished in the spring 1936 in Kirtland. This was the time, that the first rites rituals and ordinances of the Church of the Firstborn were done. Although Joseph had been teaching principles relating to it since Feb. 1832 as shown in D&C 76

    By the time of The Nauvoo period, summer of 1839-June 27,1844 Joseph’s death, the prophet was eager to move The Church of the Firstborn along. The Temple was begun, and on May 4, 1842 the first meeting of the Holy Order was held on the second floor of Joseph’s red brick store.

    The Holy Order was known by other names also, Ancient Order, special quorum, first quorum, anointed quorum, quorum of the anointed, order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, holy order of the holy Priesthood, quorum. But custom has put the name Holy Order on it.

    In the first meeting there were Joseph Smith jr, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, Heber C Kimball, bishops Newell K Whitney and George Miller, General James Adams, Willard Richards, William Marks, and William Law. It was generally this group of men for the rest of 1842, I believe.

    I have gotten used to referring to the Holy Order as the nucleus of the Church of the Firstborn. From what I have been able to find, they met bi-weekly usually on Sunday and either Wed. or Thursday. there were breaks in Joseph’s attendance when he had to go into hiding and I suppose in the beginning weeks and months the group did not meet if Joseph was missing due to the arcane and mystical material he was bringing forth,.

    In 1843 females were introduced into the order. By the time of Joseph’s death in late June 1844, about 70 persons had been admitted.

    Brigham young may well have received his 2nd anointing, the first time on 22 Nov. 1843.

    It is not so much seniority of ordinances received in the Holy Order that is important, because as we read in the D&C regarding the Church of the Firstborn that all are made “equal in power and in might and in dominion”

    The reason I hold Emma having the preemptive role is that she was sealed to the Prophet Joseph, the head of the dispensation of the fulness of times, by 2nd anointing during his lifetime, she was his sealed companion.

    Brigham Young did not claim anything but being the senior apostle, in his bid to preside. This office at the time was well established and known, but the fulness of the priesthood is what Emma laid her case on, even though, as you say, it was unknown and unspoken to the vast majority of the saints, and more or less has remained so

    One of the original members of the Holy Order at Nauvoo, William Marks and who received his 2nd anointing on 22 Oct. 1943, was one of those who put his hands on the head of Joseph Smith III and ordained him to be the President of The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, April 6, 1860, in Amboy Illinois. I suppose the reason Emma did not do it is that at the time women were still disenfranchised.

    One observation Brigham Young made, in Utah, publicly regarding the Church of the Firstborn, was to say …”The ordinances of the House of God are expressly for the Church of the Firstborn.”…JD 8:154.

    The Holy Order continued to meet after Joseph’s death, but the role of women was not as important, as Joseph had trying to secure before his death. Brigham began to exercise more of a patriarchal tone.

    After the Nauvoo Temple was finished and the ordinances were given day and night to the saints before the westward trek began, the Holy Order dwindled, the last remnant were the prayer circles in the temples in the west. However it is important to note that the Holy Order was the group that accomplished the work of the temple in Nauvoo, in initiation the endowments including washings and anointings, sealings et al. to the vast majority of saints that received the ordinances for the first time, the temple now being the place for this to occur.

  28. Very interesting stuff, Jon. It would appear that Joseph attempted to establish on earth everything that was mentioned in his revelations. That was, after all, his calling, namely, to gather all things from previous dispensations, and from the heavens, into one in Christ, to be lived here on earth.

  29. If Emma had authority superior to Brigham Young, then the RLDS church is where God’s Priesthood rests. Yet look at the state of that church today. There are no temple ordinances that I’m aware of. No work for the dead. The ordinances Joseph worked so hard to restore are lost and forgotten.

    “And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—Wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me IF HE OBEY MINE ORDINANCES. He that speaketh, whose spirit is contrite, whose language is meek and edifieth, the same is of God IF HE OBEY MINE ORDINANCES. And again, he that trembleth under my power shall be made strong, and shall bring forth fruits of praise and wisdom, according to the revelations and truths which I have given you. And again, he that is overcome and bringeth not forth fruits, even according to this pattern, is not of me. Wherefore, by this pattern ye shall know the spirits in all cases under the whole heavens.”
    (D&C 52:14-19)

    If you look at the three degrees of glory, you will find the Sun, the Moon, and the stars. The glory of the sun is masculine. The glory of the moon is feminine. Does the sun orbit around the moon? No! The reason is because the sun represents fire or righteousness. The moon represents water or emotion. The masculine attribute of righteousness causes men to be unidirectional in their path. Either men make very good saints or very good devils. Men are very black and white, whereas women live in shades of gray, prone to change their opinion with the seasons or the opinions of those around them. Emma’s church is a perfect example of this. The LDS church has been on the path of apostasy too, but it’s been a more gradual process because its hierarchy has always been male. The Church is a female body and unless it is bound to the righteous male body of the Priesthood (having the rock of revelation) it will waver this way and that, varying on the whim of the society which surrounds it.

  30. To the two previous posts, thank you, and I agree with you LDS Anarchist, in your comment.

    And to noblenarcissist,

    I believe the Community of Christ (formally RLDS church) isn’t doing all Joseph Smith had envisioned. They do expand on their D&C, with new published “revelations” however. Emma was a paradox, she was confronted with tremendous conflicts and contradictions, she didn’t like the New and Everlasting covenant, the polygyny part of it, and probably the polyandry part also. She may have had no idea of the law of Adoption (sealing of men to men, and by extension women to women). Therefore her point of view was basically informed by what she experienced and had conviction of, and could accept. She was faithful in her intimate feeling for Joseph I believe because, like Brigham Young, she voiced Joseph’s name repeatedly on her death bed.

    We do not know if Joseph or Emma or anyone, had the 2nd comforter take up abode with them. If any one did then I would assume then they were introduced into the celestial kingdom (Church of the Firstborn) in fact, in that life time, on earth.

    I attended the RLDS church general conference in April 1992, and then joined it six weeks later, conference was only every other year, at that time. I had the strong experience of God’s spirit come to me when I heard Wallace B Smith, Church President speak. I didn’t even see him because we were slowly going up the stairs, to the balcony at the time, it was packed. President Smith said “We All Belong to Each Other.” I felt wave after wave of “the spirit” engorge my being, I shed tears of bliss!

    I attended the RLDS meetings in SLC for a little over a year after joining, but realized religion, or more specifically, churches are no longer for me.

    I am an eight generation mormon (LDS) return missionary. I have that background as well, and have been a student of Joseph Smith, the restoration, and mormonism in general, since my mission.

    I was involved with the Apostolic United Brethren ( the Allred Group) practicing polygamy and united order in the ’70’s, though I myself only had one wife.

    I was also involved with Ross Wesley LeBaron sr. beginning about the end of my involvment with the Allreds in the mid ’70’s. Ross organized the Church of the Firstborn in 1950, based on the patriarchal order of Adam. I eventually found the Church of the Firstborn is not patriarchal in nature. Ross was a good hearted person just didn’t understand this. He claimed to be the Patriarchal Heir of Joseph Smith.

    It might be said the the LDS church will become the new Catholic church of the future with its increasing numbers and influence. Numbers do not impress me, though, God’s presence does.

  31. The respect for Joseph is evident by both Brigham and Emma. As was his respect for both of them. Emma had moments where she would believe in the principle of plural marriage and she would participate in the ordinances and then she’d have moments when she fought against it. It’s a hard law to live. No doubt about it. Everyone who would become Celestial caliber must be tested by fire. As soon as Joseph was gone, she no longer had her rock to lean on and so she wavered. Still, it seems Brigham said that Joseph would go to the depths of hell to fetch her. D&C 132 states that a righteous man has that power. That’s the strength of the sealing power. Most don’t understand the sealing of parents to children and men to men, because they don’t understand the order of heaven. I’m sure at some point it will be pointed to as a form of homosexuality, but that is a perversion of a true principle. There is nothing sexual about sealing fathers to sons or the law of adoption.

    As far as you feeling like you shouldn’t belong to a church, I can understand where you’re coming from. Mormonism in all its factions does seem like a mass of confusion. However, God said he set up his kingdom for the last time through the Prophet Joseph, so there still must be some worthy priesthood holders on the earth, if only a few. They must exist, for they have been prophesied to exist. This group of Priesthood holders are prophesied to bring in the gathering of Israel in preparation for the coming of their Lord.

    We know that God’s kingdom is hierarchical in nature, with God at the head, Jesus under him, and Joseph Smith under Jesus. D&C 132 indicates that there is one man on earth who holds the sealing power and that all men who have this power get it through this man. Abraham had to seek out Noah and Shem. Moses had to seek out Jethro. Jesus had to seek out John the Baptist. Saul of Tarsus had to seek out Ananais. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had to seek out John the Baptist. Only the Spirit of the living God can guide you to this man. Seek ye first the Spirit of God and it will lead you to the Kingdom of God and then all things can be added unto you. Seeing that there are so many men with so many divergent beliefs, we can conclude that most of them do not have the Spirit of God, at least not consistently. For the Spirit of God is one and causes all who listen to it to become of one mind. This one mind encompasses all eternal truth. Without it no man can know God or his truth. Men might occasionally stumble upon truth, but they will always be mixing truth with error. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Seek the fountain of living waters. The water is always purest at the fountain.

  32. “It might be said the the LDS church will become the new Catholic church of the future with its increasing numbers and influence. Numbers do not impress me, though, God’s presence does.”

    we’re not far off. great wealth, run by old men, a closed canon (it might technically be open but there hasn’t been any new revelation in a long time), the idea that you buiild credit with god by doing whats right. large membership in south america and africa, boring church services centered around the preist’s magic ability to turn bread into flesh but you dont even get a mouthful.

    personally i don’t think anyone of the branches of the restoration movement started by joseph really “gets it” at this time. maybe some small ones might but none i have seen or read about seem to. some are closer than others, but not a single one keeps all the commandments given to joseph, not a single one shows the signs that followed joseph and the early apostles (that i know of) and personally i just really hope OWIW is right and joseph comes back and reunites us all again.

  33. I visit numerous LDS/Mormon blogs with one thing in mind to get to the bottom of the various controversial doctrines. I think it is well accepted that no doctrine or principle is more controversial than marriage in its various constructs.

    I don’t know that the world of Mormondom is any closer to a consensus on the topic of marriage than it was during the early days of the church. And from every thing that I have studied it was just as confusing then as it is now.

    I am aware that there are some scolars out there that are quite emphatic in their positions either for or against. All I ask is that you prayerfuly revisit your convictions and critically inventory your thinking.

    I believe it to be essential to our eternal futures that we figure this thing out. That we as individuals and groups have a consensus that we all believe in and is rooted in eternal truth. I am sure it will be a sacrifice and a surprise for some of us. I donont expect it to change all of our life styles, The important thing being the truth!

    I believe the key to spiritual empowerment is to eliminate all mental disconnects allowing the uninhibited free flow of spirit thorough our beings. As a laymen in the research of quantum physics it has become clear to me that the empowerment that we are all looking for is directly in front of us and like Dorothy in the “wizard of OZ” has always been there.

    The more truth either a individual or a group of people has the more expansive is their conciousness. In the world of quantum physics conciousness is everything, Conciousness is the root of all creation. I will be the first to say that God is the master of creation and I will also say that the righteous are an extention of God.

    So here is my plan; let us excercise the free agency that God has given us, use our God given brains and make a list of all the perceived advantages and disadvantage of the various types of marriages as you see it. Even if you don’t believe in a brand of marriage, if you think you can see a advantage in it please bring it forth and let us all make a informed decision.

    I’m not saying by any stretch of the imagination that anyone is bound by any perceived consensus that we come up with. At this point this nothing more than a mental excercise.

    I will kick it off and pick a advantage of “MONOGAMY” (1) advantage, socially acceptable. (1) disadvantage, the maintance and up keep of the family falls upon just two people.

    Ok Folks! help it out here OK!

  34. Marriage (whether monogamist or polygamist) requires sacrifice. Selfish people can hardly endure a monogamist marriage, let alone a polygamist one. You’re not going to be able to use the scales of pro and con to determine which form of marriage is right for everyone, because not everyone is equal in their capacity to sacrifice. However, I’ll provide a couple of disadvantages to not allowing polygamy for those who are capable and willing:

    1) Many LDS girls will pine away waiting for a good man, yet will never find one. You can find several blogs revealing this sad plight of the sisters:

    ldsspinster.blogspot.com
    themormonspinster.blogspot.com
    chroniclesofamormonspinster.blogspot.com
    confessionsofasinglemormongirl.blogspot.com
    singlemormongirl.wordpress.com

    I haven’t yet found one equivalent for bachelors. Maybe men are just less open with their feelings on the topic.

    2) Many widows are struggling to hold down a full time job and be both the instructor and nurturer of their children. Their orphan children generally grow up to become menaces to society due to lack of consistent parenting.

  35. It was very troubling to me to see the “Warren Jeffs” group dump their teenage sons off in the middle of St. George, to say this reflects negatively on polygamy is a understatement.

    As I see it htis was a direct result of all the old men wanting the young girls for themselves. Any relationship that comes about as a result of coersion is patently evil and is under a curse.
    I think this has been an issue from the early days of the church and is extremely self serving. The temptation being that men are hard wired towards young girls.

    I got to say that Mr. jeffs got what he had coming and is still not over for him.

    If there is a lesson to be learned here it is to honor every ones free agency, People need to understand the dangers of assuming that they know what is best for others.

  36. noblenarcissist

    In his extreme anxiety, Joseph declared to those in congregation on April 7, 1844 “all ye sinners Repent Repent–turn to God for your religion won’t save you”….

    And at another time, May 26, 1842, the Lord had declared by the Prophet “that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church– that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls– applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints– said if the people departed from the Lord they must fall– that they were depending on the Prophet hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves”,…..

  37. “Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.”
    (D&C 38:27)

  38. One of the advantages tha I see in polygany is the insentitive to improve ones self in every way possible, if you are a couch potatoe it will be harder for some one of the opposite sex to be interested in you.At least that is my take if I am wrong I would hope someone would show me where.

  39. “I’m not saying that is unlikely. Actually, I’m saying just the opposite, that it is likely that at some point He will organize them into orders. However, if the people lobby for these changes, using their church keys to force the issue before the appointed time, the Lord will give them the perversion that they demand, despite the manner not being in accord with the will of God, and it will be to their detriment, which will end up fulfilling these prophecies”

    i cant say that this seems to be a high probability situation. is that what happened when demand rose to a breaking point regarding black ordination? if the 12 fasted and prayed god would tell them what to do. the possibility of them not doing that and just making a bad decision is there though (like prop 8, not a unanimous decision). if the 12 didn’t seek the lord’s will and implemented what they thought best that would be answered on their heads not the members.

    “But this is not the spirit of these affairs, for these questions are not based upon doing the will of the Lord, but in sowing discord and dissension and in accusing the brethren of injustice because of the existence of only male priesthood orders, which orders are ordained of God. So, this is not inspired of God, but it will still bear fruit in a future day and they will get want they want, but instead of saving them, it will damn them.”

    this is some nonsense. god has made it clear that his will is to organize women into quorums, that’s why he commanded joseph to do it and he started to, that’s why sisters are referred to as priestesses in the temple and prophetesses in the scriptures. male orders are ordained of god just as much as the female orders are. there were female orders in past times, joseph was restoring what was lost when he was murdered and the work was cut short. withholding the opportunity to receive an oath and a covenant is not doing the will of god. there wasn’t a magic change in 1978 because “the time had come” the only difference was that the people were finally done being racist and the 12 were finally united in prayer and fasting.

  40. DR: At present women are not allowed to be priests in your Church. Why is that?

    Gordon B. Hinckley: That’s right, because the Lord has put it that way. Now women have a very prominent place in this Church. They have there own organisation. Probably the largest women’s organisation in the world of 3.7 million members. And the women of that organisation sit on Boards. Our Board of Education things of that kind. They counsel with us. We counsel together. They bring in insight that we very much appreciate and they have this tremendous organisation of the world where they grow and if you ask them they’ll say we’re happy and we’re satisfied.

    DR: They all say that?

    Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes. All except a oh you’ll find a little handful one or two here and there, but in 10 million members you expect that.

    DR: You say the Lord has put it that way. What do you mean by that?

    Gordon B. Hinckley: I mean that’s a part of His programme. Of course it is, yes.

    DR: Is it possible that the rules could change in the future as the rules are on Blacks?

    Gordon B. Hinckley: He could change them yes. If He were to change them that’s the only way it would happen.

    DR: So you’d have to get a revelation?

    Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes. But there’s no agitation for that. We don’t find it. Our women are happy. They’re satisfied. These bright, able, wonderful women who administer their own organisation are very happy. Ask them. Ask my wife.

    according to president hinckley, agitation is what it would take for god to “change the rules”

  41. This is a new petition for women in the church:

    All are alike unto God

  42. Frank Pellett imagines an exact counterpart of the male priesthood quorums, but filled by a female “priestesshood” that would require both sets of male and female quorum’s decision to get anything done.

    Caroline finds the idea interesting, but also replies:

    I see no reason why we couldn’t integrate women into the existing structure and have, for example, a female bishop with male counselors or whatever she wanted. Or female apostles, or a female President of the Church, with males and females integrated in as counselors. I like the idea of men and women working together, as they do in education, business, and government. That said, just mixing women into leadership and stirring isn’t enough. I would want the integration of female symbols, stories, etc. into our liturgy. Let men learn from the stories and symbols of women, just as women always have from men.

    Holly takes issue with Frank’s assertion that feminism ideals can be passively asserted and says:

    Any time a man begins a discussion by calling for women to be more passive, you shouldn’t be surprised when his ideas about gender are really problematic.

    And then follows that by saying:

    The segregated nature of [Frank’s] plan when it comes to gender is not a virtue but a vice, just as segregation by race was a vice in our country. The “separate but equal” approach to things like quorums will ensure that priestesshood is a ghettoized version of the priesthood, just as it did when “separate but equal” was applied to race.

    This is not a “smaller step” on the way to greater equality but a step in the wrong direction. But as I say, that’s not surprising, given that Frank seems to be facing the wrong direction from the beginning.

    I mention all of this because this is the spirit of these affairs. In other words, at the very heart of all this pushing, meaning the plan of the evil one, who is the one inspiring this mess of confusion, is the confounding of the male priesthood orders.

    Now, I don’t feel like expounding upon this issue, because I’d have to take it back to the beginning, and unfold the scriptures, and that would be best done in a post and not a comment, but I will mention a couple of things to keep in mind.

    First, that the male priesthood orders are divinely appointed.

    Second, that the evil spirit desires and conspires and inspires to confound all the works of God, including the male priesthood orders.

    The evil one has a two-fold strategy to confound the male priesthood orders: 1) get people to reject the notion that they were/are divinely appointed and 2) get people to corrupt (change/alter) the orders.

    Frank envisioned female quorums that essentially keep the male priesthood orders intact as they are now, choosing to recognize that these male orders were divinely appointed and should not be touched or tampered with by anyone outside of the Lord Himself.

    Caroline and Holly, though, would rather integrate females into the male priesthood orders, so that they are no longer male priesthood orders. In other words, 1) they don’t recognize the hand of God in establishing the male priesthood orders and 2) they seek to confound (or alter or change) the male priesthood orders into something altogether different.

    What Frank envisions will not happen in the church. (A divinely appointed type of it, though, will happen tribally.) But what Caroline and Holly envision will happen in the church, for their thoughts–despite being couched under the language of equality–are inspired of the evil one, and the evil one will eventually get what he wants in this church.

    One must approach this subject with the two-fold mission of the devil in mind and ask, does this thing I propose recognize the divinely appointed order? If not, your thought is inspired of the devil. And, will this thing I propose change the divinely appointed order? If so, your thought is inspired of the evil one.

    Doctrine and Covenants section 1 contains a prophecy of a future apostasy of the church, in which the Lord says:

    And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; for they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

    The type in bold encompasses the corruption of the male priesthood orders, encompassing both the ordinances and the oath and covenant of the holy priesthood. The fulfillment of these prophecies is still future, of course, but it is important to keep all of this in mind, because we are already seeing these seeds planted in the hearts of men.

  43. I found this recent comment about Elder Oaks’ General Conference Talk to be interesting:

    I am trying to understand Elder Oaks’ talk. Taking everything he said at face value, here is what I think he said:

    1. Women don’t hold the priesthood.

    2. Those who hold “keys” can give assignments to others who then act under the authority of the priesthood of the key-holder.

    3. In the temple sisters use the authority of the priesthood to perform washings and anointings, inasmuch as they were set apart by key-holders.

    4. Therefore women use the authority of the priesthood.

    From this it can be surmised: Sister missionaries will be able to baptize some day using the authority of the priesthood of a key-holder. This talk was designed to accomplish what the “Ordain Women” movement wants by approaching it in two steps rather than one. It is de facto ordination, incrementally adopted by careful measures.

    This is something I had not considered before as possibly happening in the future, namely, the delegation of priesthood authority to a woman to enable her to perform an ordinance that pertains to a particular office of the priesthood. So, for example, a bishop might authorize a woman to baptize someone by setting her apart as a baptist(-ress?) She wouldn’t be an ordained priest or elder, nor have any priesthood conferred upon her, but would still be acting under the authority of the bishop and priesthood, making the ordinance valid in the eyes of the church. I now wonder if this will be an intermediate step taken before full blown female ordination occurs. I can only imagine that if this idea gets widespread discussion, surely those pushing for female ordination will seize upon it…

  44. I don’t know if it is worth my wasting words on this subject when so many replies to the article are so focused on women “wanting” equity through priesthood ordination.
    As a woman, mother, grandmother and recently a great grandmother and As a woman who has been required to sustain my family through a demanding career path, and as a woman of Faith in the restored gospel of Christ provided by a true Latter-Day prophet, I’m so very sorry so many have desires for “authority and power” to which so many are called and so few are chosen.
    For some reason many women today do not believe God functions upon the principle of agency. I may be found at fault for stating this, but I believe at the time my elements were “organized” my affinity was for womanhood and that is what I chose and promised to be allegiant to in mortality. Some woman are not blessed to experience marriage or childbirth, and that must be very challenging. I did have both, but also was required to pay the bills while raising them. That was not easy.
    My career brought me into close association with many men. Just as often I worked with women. Those who sought for, fought for and attained “management/executive” careers were far too often unable to function with the tools of influence. They had wanted power, had obtained it and wielded it mercilessly. After 40 plus years in my two career paths, I found the same pattern of female power rising to the top far too frequently.
    D&C 121:34-36; 41-44

    When God’s means of performance or power for using the priesthood is by “love unfeigned” and “influence” and yet our natural tendencies are too often (male and female) to function to meet our own needs and not God’s, what is the point of ordaining more “natural” saints to fail in exercising priesthood authority.
    If women want to raise the dead, heal the sick, part the Red Sea, create worlds, perhaps they should visit Hebrews Chpt 11 to learn it is all done through faith.


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