1 Nephi 13 & 14 commentary, using CTC’s view


On June 17th, 2008, Anthony E. Larson uploaded a post to this blog called, The Great and Abominable Church.  A couple of weeks later a visitor called CTC claimed that 1 Nephi 13 & 14 spoke of a literal great and abominable church that had yet to make its appearance and that much of both of these chapters was yet to be fulfilled.  He said he got this information from someone who he believed was a bona fide prophet of God.  CTC did not use a chronological approach to Nephi’s prophecy.  This made it easy for him to get around certain parts which posed problems to him as a future fulfillment.  But I’m not going to take that approach.  I’m going to read it chronologically and literally, and see where it takes me.

I’m doing this because it interests me, not because I subscribe to this view, so please don’t take this as my interpretation of this chapter.  As I’ve said before, my understanding of prophecy is that it is plain and speaks of real things, and also that it often has shadows or types.  When CTC first posted his comments, I did not respond, because I hadn’t taken the time to really look at 1 Nephi 13, to see if the fulfillment that we normally assign to it could be a mere shadow.  So, I remained silent and let others respond to him.  However, recently I have found myself mentioning time and time again about a coming future captivity of the saints, which brought to my mind what Nephi had stated in 1 Nephi 13, which then brought to my mind what CTC had written in his comments.

All of which leads me to this post, in which I look at these chapters and attempt to interpret them as if their literal fulfillment was still future.  So, let’s begin.

Chapter Thirteen of First Nephi

I will quote a part of the chapter, then give what is commonly assumed as its fulfillment, but as a shadow, and then I will give its literal future fulfillment.  I will try to convincingly show why the shadow fulfillment does not satisfy the prophecy, meaning why the prophecy is not fulfilled every whit by the shadow, necessitating a future, literal fulfillment.  I am using this as my Book of Mormon text.

The times of the Gentiles

and it came to pass | that the angel spake unto me | saying |

look |

and i looked | and beheld many nations and kingdoms | and the angel said unto me |

what beholdest thou |

and i said |

i behold many nations and kingdoms |

and he said unto me |

these are the nations and kingdoms of the gentiles |

This is obviously talking about the times of the Gentiles.  But which times?  The times of the primitive church with the twelve apostles, the times right after the death of the apostles, the times of Joseph Smith, the current times, or a future time of the Gentiles?  Nephi isn’t clear on this point, but I will interpret this as a future time.

The formation of a church

and it came to pass | that i saw | among the nations of the gentiles | the formation of a great church | and the angel said unto me |

behold | the formation of a church | which is most abominable | above all other churches | which slayeth the saints of god | yea | and tortureth them | and bindeth them down | and yoketh them with a yoke of iron | and bringeth them down into captivity |

Shadow past fulfillment: Some have stated that this is the Roman Catholic Church, a literal church, which would put its formation after the death of the apostles.  Others have stated that this is the “church” of science, a metaphorical church, which would put its formation after the Roman Catholic Church.  Others believe this is speaking metaphorically about all churches that are not the true saints of God, per the later verse of 1 Ne. 14:10, giving it a metaphorical “formation” and a metaphorical “captivity.”  These must all be shadows because they do not fulfill the prophecy every whit.

Literal future fulfillment: This a real church, not a figurative or metaphorical church.  And it exists among other, real churches.  It literally kills and tortures real saints—or sanctified people who have entered into a covenant with God, witnessed by baptism—and literally binds them, puts real iron yokes upon them and brings them down into literal (not metaphorical) captivity.

To literally fulfill this prophecy every whit, living saints of God must be present during, or after, the formation of this church, and they must be killed, tortured, bound, yoked with iron, and brought into captivity.  Also, there must be other, real churches present, which do not pertain to the abominable church.

This has not occurred, yet, for although there were people tortured, killed, put into iron yokes and brought into captivity, by various religious organizations in the past, these tortured souls were not saints of God, for the church of God was already non-existent by then and the saints and apostles were already dead.  Therefore, this prophecy must pertain to the future.

Devil, materialism, worldy praise

and it came to pass | that i beheld this great and abominable church |

and i saw the devil | that he was the founder of it |

and i also saw gold | and silver | and silks | and scarlets | and fine-twined linen | and all manner of precious clothing |

and i saw many harlots | and the angel spake unto me | saying |

behold | the gold | and the silver | and the silks | and the scarlets | and the fine-twined linen | and the precious clothing | and the harlots | are the desires of this great and abominable church |

and also | for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of god | and bring them down into captivity |

The previous commentary applies to this section, as well, for if the church of God is not present, in order for this abominable church to bring God’s saints down into captivity and destroy them, it cannot be fulfilled literally.

Many waters

and it came to pass | that i looked | and beheld many waters | and they divided the gentiles from the seed of my brethren |

Shadow past fulfillment:  The Gentiles of Europe are divided (separated) from the American Indians (Lamanites) by the Atlantic Ocean.

Literal future fulfillment: The Gentiles of Asia are divided (separated) from the American Indians (Lamanites) by “many waters.”  The term “many waters” refers to that body of water called by the Nephites, Irreantum, which is the Pacific Ocean.

And we did come to the land which we called Bountiful, because of its much fruit and also wild honey; and all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish. And we beheld the sea, which we called Irreantum, which, being interpreted, is many waters.  (1 Ne. 17:5)

The Spirit of God upon a man

and it came to pass | that the angel said unto me |

behold | the wrath of god is upon the seed of thy brethren |

and i looked | and beheld a man | among the gentiles | who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters |

and i beheld the spirit of god | that it came down | and wrought upon the man | and he went forth upon the many waters | even unto the seed of my brethren | who were in the promised land |

Shadow past fulfillment:  The European Gentile, Christopher Columbus, “believed himself chosen by God to find [a new] land and deliver the light of Christianity to the natives there.”  He sailed upon the Atlantic Ocean to the New World, all the way to the Lamanite remnant.

Literal future fulfillment:  A man among the Asian Gentiles (not necessarily a Gentile man, nor Asian) will have the Spirit of God come down and work upon him.  This man will be a holy prophet of God and will travel from Asia to North America, upon the Irreantum or Pacific Ocean, until he reaches the Lamanite remnant.

The Spirit of God upon captive Gentiles

and it came to pass | that i beheld the spirit of god | that it wrought upon other gentiles | and they went forth out of captivity upon the many waters |

Shadow past fulfillment:  European Gentiles (Puritans) leave Europe and their religious “captivity” for America to partake of religious freedom.  (Never mind that Europe was one of the freest places on the planet at the time.)  They travel over the Atlantic Ocean.

Literal future fulfillment:  Asian Gentiles are wrought upon by the Spirit of God, becoming saints of God, and leave Asian captivity, meaning that they leave the captivity of the tyrannical Chinese, North Korean and other communist regimes and dictatorships, which bind the people down in literal captivity.  They travel over the Irreantum (Pacific Ocean.)

The scattering of the Lamanites

and it came to pass | that i beheld many multitudes of the gentiles upon the land of promise |

and i beheld the wrath of god | that it was upon the seed of my brethren | and they were scattered before the gentiles | and were smitten |

and i beheld the spirit of the lord | that it was upon the gentiles | and they did prosper | and obtain the land for their inheritance |

and i beheld | that they were white | and exceedingly fair and beautiful | like unto my people before they were slain |

Shadow past fulfillment:  Lots of European Gentiles are in America.  The European Gentiles partially scatter the American Indians and gather them into reservations.  The European Gentiles take possession of Indian and American land.  Some prosper, some do not.  The European Gentiles are white, fair and beautiful.

Literal future fulfillment:  Lots of different Gentiles are in America.  An unnamed group of (European?) Gentiles fully scatter the American Indians, off of the reservations, and smite them, so that the Lamanites are completely landless.  The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a righteous group of (Asian?) Gentiles (saints) and they prosper and inherit the land.  This righteous group of Gentiles is white, fair and beautiful.

Former captors wage war against former captives; God saves former captives

and it came to pass | that i nephi beheld | that the gentiles | who had gone forth out of captivity | did humble themselves before the lord | and the power of the lord was with them |

and i beheld | that their mother gentiles were gathered together upon the waters | and upon the land | also | to battle against them |

and i beheld | that the power of god was with them | and also | that the wrath of god was upon all those | that were gathered together against them to battle |

and i | nephi | beheld | that the gentiles | that had gone out of captivity | were delivered by the power of god out of the hands of all other nations |

Shadow past fulfillment:  Many European Gentiles (in the American British colonies) are either deists or believe in God, Christianity and the Bible.  The American Revolutionary War ensues.  Despite hardships, lack of supplies, training, etc., the American Continental Army defeats the British.

Literal future fulfillment:  The Asian Gentiles (who are converted saints of God)—who left their Asian communist countries, who traveled over the Irreantum (Pacific Ocean), who are now living upon the land of America—humble themselves before the Lord and obtain the gifts and powers of the Holy Ghost.  Their mother countries (China, Russia and the rest) send warships upon the waters to battle them and gather together upon the water and also gather together upon the land.  Divine intervention (miracles of God) takes place and the armies of the mother Gentile nations, as well as the armies of all those nations who were gathered with them to battle the former Asian Gentile captives, are defeated by the power of God, and not by any power of man.

A book, the record of the Jews

and it came to pass | that i | nephi | beheld | that they did prosper in the land |

and i beheld a book | and it was carried forth among them | and the angel said unto me |

knowest thou the meaning of the book |

and i said unto him |

i know not |

and he said |

behold | it proceedeth out of the mouth of a jew |

and i | nephi | beheld it | and he said unto me |

the book | that thou beholdest | is a record of the jews | which contains the covenants of the lord | which he hath made unto the house of israel |

and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets |

and it is a record like unto the engravings | which are upon the plates of brass | save there are not so many | nevertheless | they contain the covenants of the lord | which he hath made unto the house of israel | wherefore | they are of great worth unto the gentiles |

and the angel of the lord said unto me |

thou hast beheld | that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a jew |

and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a jew | it contained the fulness of the gospel of the lord | of whom the twelve apostles bear record | and they bear record | according to the truth which is in the lamb of god | wherefore | these things go forth from the jews in purity unto the gentiles | according to the truth which is in god |

and after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the lamb from the jews unto the gentiles | thou seest the formation of a great and abominable church | which is most abominable | above all other churches |

for behold | they have taken away from the gospel of the lamb many parts | which are plain and most precious |

and also | many covenants of the lord have they taken away |

and all this have they done | that they might pervert the right ways of the lord | that they might blind the eyes | and harden the hearts | of the children of men | wherefore | thou seest | that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church | that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book | which is the book of the lamb of god |

and after these plain and precious things were taken away | it goeth forth unto all the nations of the gentiles |

and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the gentiles | yea | even across the many waters | which thou hast seen with the gentiles | which have gone forth out of captivity | thou seest | because of the many plain and precious things | which have been taken out of the book | which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men | according to the plainness which is in the lamb of god | because of these things | which are taken away out of the gospel of the lamb | an exceedingly great many do stumble | yea | insomuch that satan hath great power over them | nevertheless | thou beholdest | that the gentiles | who have gone forth out of captivity | and have been lifted up by the power of god | above all other nations upon the face of the land | which is choice | above all other lands | which is the land | that the lord god hath covenanted with thy father | that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance | wherefore | thou seest | that the lord god will not suffer | that the gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed | which are among thy brethren | neither will he suffer | that the gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren | neither will the lord god suffer | that the gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness | which thou beholdest | they are in | because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the lamb | which have been kept back by that abominable church | whose formation thou hast seen |

wherefore |

saith the lamb of god |

i will be merciful unto the gentiles | unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of israel in great judgment |

Shadow past fulfillment:  The European Gentiles (now called American citizens) have a Bible—written by multiple authors, not a single Jew—which has been corrupted by that great and abominable church, you know, the Roman Catholic Church, or the science non-church, or the vast assembly of non-saint churches “church.”  That church.  Anyway, that church/non-church takes some plain and precious parts away from the Bible and then sends it out to all the European Gentiles, which then makes its way to America, since the European Gentiles have traveled there over the Atlantic Ocean.  And because of this faulty Bible, many of the European Gentiles stumble and sin.  But hope is not lost, for the Lord has a plan.

Literal future fulfillment:  The Asian Gentiles saints living in America have a book, written by a singular Jew, which contains a record of the Jews, the covenants of the Lord and many of the prophecies of the prophets.  This book is like the plates of brass, except it doesn’t contain as much information as the plates of brass.  It contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the testimony of all twelve apostles of the Lord.

When the book first appears, written by the singular Jew, it will go to the Gentiles, presumably to the Asian Gentiles who were in captivity, since they will be carrying the book.  After it goes to the Gentiles, the great and abominable church will be formed.  That church apparently will get a copy of the book and make drastic changes to it, taking out plain and precious parts.  Then they will publish the book far and wide, so that it ends up in every Gentile nation, including in America.

There will be, then, two editions of the book.  One which is pure, carried by the Asian Gentile saints living in America, and the other which is corrupted, carried by the other Gentiles (living in America and elsewhere).  Because of the corrupted version, many Gentiles stumble and sin.  But hope is not lost, for the Lord has a plan.

Another book, the record of the Nephites

and it came to pass | that the angel of the lord spake unto me | saying |

behold |

saith the lamb of god |

after i have visited the remnant of the house of israel |

and this remnant | of whom i speak | is the seed of thy father |

wherefore | after i have visited them in judgment | and smitten them by the hand of the gentiles | and after the gentiles do stumble exceedingly | because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the lamb | which have been kept back by that abominable church | which is the mother of harlots |

saith the lamb |

i will be merciful unto the gentiles in that day | insomuch that i will bring forth unto them in mine own power much of my gospel | which shall be plain and precious |

saith the lamb |

for behold |

saith the lamb |

i will manifest myself unto thy seed | that they shall write many things | which i shall minister unto them | which shall be plain and precious | and after thy seed shall be destroyed | and dwindle in unbelief | and also the seed of thy brethren |

behold | these things shall be hid up |

to come forth unto the gentiles by the gift and power of the lamb |

and in them shall be written my gospel |

saith the lamb |

and my rock | and my salvation |

and blessed are they | who shall seek to bring forth my zion at that day | for they shall have the gift and the power of the holy ghost |

and if they endure unto the end | they shall be lifted up at the last day | and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the lamb |

and whoso shall publish peace | yea | tidings of great joy | how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be |

Shadow past fulfillment:  The Book of Mormon, an abridged record of the Nephites, was written, and came forth to the Gentiles that were stumbling, by the gift and power of God, and in it is God’s rock, salvation and gospel, and it contains the many plain and precious parts that have been taken out of the Bible, as well as an abridgment of the ministry of the Savior to the Nephites.  Those during the time of Joseph Smith were blessed with the gift and power of the Holy Ghost as they sought to establish Zion.

Future literal fulfillment:  An unabridged Nephite record (not the Book of Mormon) will be written, to come forth to the Gentiles that stumble, by the gift and power of God, and in it will be God’s rock, salvation and gospel, and it will contain the many plain and precious parts that have been taken out of the book that is carried by the Asian Gentile saints.  In the Nephite record will be “many things” that the Savior personally ministered to the Nephites.  In other words, it will be an unabridged account of that ministry.  Those during the time of the appearance of this unabridged Nephite record will be blessed with the gift and power of the Holy Ghost as they seek to establish Zion.

Two records established in one

and it came to pass | that i beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren | and also the book of the lamb of god | which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the jew | that it came forth from the gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren |

and after it had come forth unto them | i beheld other books | which came forth by the power of the lamb from the gentiles unto them | unto the convincing of the gentiles | and the remnant of the seed of my brethren | and also | the jews | who were scattered upon all the face of the earth | that the records of the prophets | and of the twelve apostles of the lamb | are true | and the angel spake unto me | saying |

these last records | which thou hast seen among the gentiles | shall establish the truth of the first | which are of the twelve apostles of the lamb |

and shall make known the plain and precious things | which have been taken away from them |

and shall make known to all kindreds | tongues | and people | that the lamb of god is the son of the eternal father | and the savior of the world | and that all men must come unto him | or they cannot be saved | and they must come according to the words | which shall be established by the mouth of the lamb |

and the words of the lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed | as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the lamb | wherefore | they both shall be established in one | for there is one god | and one shepherd over all the earth |

and the time cometh | that he shall manifest himself unto all nations | both unto the jews | and also unto the gentiles |

and after he has manifested himself unto the jews | and also unto the gentiles | then he shall manifest himself unto the gentiles | and also unto the jews |

and the last shall be first | and the first shall be last |

Shadow past fulfillment:  The Bible written by multiple Jews went to the Lamanites.  Later, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price went to the Lamanites, and these last records established the truth of the Bible (as far as it is translated correctly), which is a record of the four apostles of the Lord, and made known the plain and precious parts missing in it.  Both volumes of scripture were established in one, by being bound up as a quadruple combination.

Literal future fulfillment:  The unchanged book carried by the Asian Gentile saints, written by a singular Jew, will go to the Lamanites.  Later, the unabridged Nephite record (as well as other records) will go to the Lamanites and will establish the truth of the unadulterated book that is carried about by the Asian Gentile saints, which is a record of all twelve apostles of the Lord, and will make known the plain and precious parts that are missing in the perverted edition of that record.  Both volumes of scripture will be established in one.

Chapter Fourteen of First Nephi

The whole of 1 Nephi 14 is still future, according to my understanding, but since I’m using CTC’s view to interpret the prophecy, I will try to bring up anything that may coincide with what I wrote about chapter thirteen.

Numbering

and it shall come to pass | that if the gentiles shall hearken unto the lamb of god | in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word | and also in power | in very deed | unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks | and harden not their hearts against the lamb of god | they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father | yea | they shall be numbered among the house of israel |

and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever |

they shall be no more brought down into captivity |

and the house of israel shall no more be confounded |

and that great pit | which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church | which was founded by the devil and his children | that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell | yea | that great pit | which hath been digged for the destruction of men | shall be filled by those who digged it | unto their utter destruction |

saith the lamb of god |

not the destruction of the soul | save it be the casting of it into that hell | which hath no end |

for behold | this is according to the captivity of the devil | and also according to the justice of god upon all those | who will work wickedness and abomination before him |

Shadow past/present fulfillment:  I suppose latter-day saints could interpret numbering among the house of Israel as fulfilled by getting their patriarchal blessings, which tell them what tribe they have been assigned to.

Literal future fulfillment:  Numbering is a tribal function.  I’ve already gone over this on this blog before, so I’m not going to elaborate on this topic again.  Let it suffice that my understanding is that this pertains to the future and has not yet been fulfilled in any part, whatsoever.

The great and marvelous work

and it came to pass | that the angel spake unto me | nephi | saying |

thou hast beheld | that if the gentiles repent | it shall be well with them |

and thou also knowest | concerning the covenants of the lord unto the house of israel |

and thou also hast heard | that whoso repenteth not | must perish | therefore | wo be unto the gentiles | if it so be | that they harden their hearts against the lamb of god |

for the time cometh |

saith the lamb of god |

that i will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men | a work which shall be everlasting | either on the one hand | or on the other | either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal | or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts | and the blindness of their minds | unto their being brought down into captivity | and also into destruction | both temporally and spiritually |

according to the captivity of the devil | of which i have spoken |

Shadow past fulfillment:  The times of Joseph Smith in which he restored many lost truths and layed the foundation of the kingdom is often thought as the great and marvelous work.

Literal future fulfillment:  The great and marvel work takes places after the numbering of the Gentiles among the house of Israel, therefore, it is still a future event.

The covenants of the Father to the house of Israel

and it came to pass | that when the angel had spoken these words | he said unto me |

rememberest thou the covenants of the father unto the house of israel |

i said unto him |

yea |

I don’t really need to comment on this.

Two churches only

and it came to pass | that he said unto me |

look | and behold that great and abominable church | which is the mother of abominations | whose founder is the devil |

and he said unto me |

behold | there are save two churches only |

the one is the church of the lamb of god | and the other is the church of the devil | wherefore | whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of god | belongeth to that great church | which is the mother of abominations | and she is the whore of all the earth |

Shadow past fulfillment:  Some use this scripture retroactively, to apply to the thirteenth chapter of First Nephi.  So, they define the great and abominable church as everything that isn’t the LDS church.

Literal future fulfillment:  The great and marvelous work, which is still future, will cause a division among the people, so that there are no longer a multiplicity of churches on earth.  Everything will either align itself with the great and abominable church, being absorbed by her, or join the saints of God in the now-called church of the Lamb of God.  The church of the Lamb of God will be using, if you remember, the Book of the Lamb of God.  In other words, that unchanged book written by a singular Jew, carried by the Asian Gentile saints, which contains the writings of the twelve (not four) apostles of the Lamb.  Just as Mormons are called Mormons because of the book they carry and use and believe, so the Lamb of God church will be called by the name of their main book.

Headquarters in the midst of Irreantum

and it came to pass | that i looked | and beheld the whore of all the earth | and she sat upon many waters | and she had dominion over all the earth | among all nations | kindreds | tongues | and people |

Shadow past fulfillment:  Bad (non-LDS) churches are all over the planet.

Literal future fulfillment:  The great and abominable church will be headquartered somewhere in the Pacific Ocean and will have global reach.

The church of the Lamb of God

and it came to pass | that i beheld the church of the lamb of god | and its numbers were few | because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore | who sat upon many waters | nevertheless | i beheld | that the church of the lamb | who were the saints of god | were also upon all the face of the earth | and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small | because of the wickedness of the great whore | whom i saw |

Shadow past fulfillment:  Good (LDS) churches are all over the planet.

Literal future fulfillment:  The church of the Lamb of God will have global reach, but small membership, due to the other church’s wickedness.

Gathering of the whore to fight the Lamb

and it came to pass | that i beheld | that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth among all the nations of the gentiles to fight against the lamb of god |

I ain’t gonna interpret this.

Power of God upon the saints and covenant people

and it came to pass | that i | nephi | beheld the power of the lamb of god | that it descended upon the saints of the church of the lamb | and upon the covenant people of the lord | who were scattered upon all the face of the earth | and they were armed with righteousness | and with the power of god in great glory |

Nor will I interpret this.  But do notice that at this point in the prophetic timeline, the covenant people of the Lord are still in their scattered state.

Worldwide wars

and it came to pass | that i beheld | that the wrath of god was poured out upon that great and abominable church | insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth | and as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations | which belonged to the mother of abominations | the angel spake unto me | saying |

behold | the wrath of god is upon the mother of harlots |

and behold | thou seest all these things | and when the day cometh | that the wrath of god is poured out upon the mother of harlots | which is the great and abominable church of all the earth | whose founder is the devil | then at that day the work of the father shall commence in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants | which he hath made to his people | who are of the house of israel |

Nor will I interpret this.  But do notice that only now, after there are wars and rumors of war everywhere, after the numbering, after the unabridged Nephite record and the record of the twelve apostles of the Lamb come forth, etc., only after all these things happen does the work of the Father commence in preparing the way for the fulfilling of His covenants with Israel!

The apostle John

and it came to pass | that the angel spake unto me | saying |

look |

and i looked | and beheld a man | and he was dressed in a white robe | and the angel said unto me |

behold | one of the twelve apostles of the lamb |

behold | he shall see and write the remainder of these things | yea | and also many things which have been | and he shall also write concerning the end of the world | wherefore | the things | which he shall write | are just and true |

and behold | they are written in the book | which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the jew | and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the jew | or at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the jew | the things | which were written | were plain | and pure | and most precious | and easy to the understanding of all men |

and behold | the things | which this apostle of the lamb shall write | are many things | which thou hast seen |

and behold | the remainder shalt thou see | but the things | which thou shalt see hereafter | thou shalt not write | for the lord god hath ordained the apostle of the lamb of god | that he should write them | and also others | who have been | to them hath he shown all things | and they have written them | and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity | according to the truth which is in the lamb | in the own due time of the lord | unto the house of israel |

and i | nephi | heard | and bear record | that the name of the apostle of the lamb was john | according to the word of the angel |

and behold | i | nephi | am forbidden | that i should write the remainder of the things | which i saw and heard | wherefore | the things | which i have written | sufficeth me | and i have written but a small part of the things | which i saw |

and i bear record | that i saw the things | which my father saw | and the angel of the lord did make them known unto me |

Shadow past fulfillment:  John the apostle wrote the Book of Revelation, which contains some of the things that Nephi saw and the Book of Revelation is found in the Bible, which was written by multiple Jews.

Literal future fulfillment:  John the apostle will appear in the future, with a mission to gather the tribes of Israel, as a Jewish Elias, meaning an Elias of the tribe of Judah, and he will come and restore all things pertaining to the Jews.

Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.  (D&C 77:14)
As part of his commission, John will prophesy among many nations, kings, tongues and people.

And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud; and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was at it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire; and he had in his hand a little book open; and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, and cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth; and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,

Those things are sealed up which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer; but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said,

God and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

And I went unto the angel, and said unto him,

Give me the little book.

And he said unto me,

Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey; and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

And he said unto me,

Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.  (Revelations 10, Inspired Version)

It was for this reason that John was translated, that he might perform this latter-day work.

And the Lord said unto me:

John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

 And I said unto him:

Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

 And the Lord said unto me:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter:

If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.   I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.   Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.   And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.   Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.  (D&C 7)

John, then, is the Jew, out of whose mouth the book, which Nephi saw in vision, would proceed.  He is the “hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” which will write this book.  Through John will proceed the record and testimony of all twelve apostles of the Lamb, and all the things which Nephi saw will be written by John, “and also many things which have been,” meaning that John will write things which preceded Nephi.  The writings of John in the Bible do not cover all the things that the angel told Nephi John would write, which would be written in the book that proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, which is called “the Book of the Lamb of God.”

And this is the very reason why the angel prohibited Nephi from writing the rest of his vision.  The Book of Revelation does not contain the vision that Nephi saw.  If anything, it only contains a part of the vision, or an abridgement.  Nephi could not write what he saw because it was not the proper time for that information to come forth.  When John re-appears on the scene, he will dictate the book that Nephi saw the Asian Gentile saints carrying, which will contain the full vision of Nephi, as well as the covenants of the Lord, many of the prophecies of the prophets, the testimony of all twelve apostles, a record of the Jews and “many things which have been.”  Yet, despite all that, it will still be less material than what the plates of brass contain.

John may, in fact, be the man who is wrought upon by the Spirit of God, who goes forth upon the many waters (Irreantum) to the promised land, who is followed by the Asian Gentile saints.  John may be that man among the Asian Gentiles, who preaches to them and gives them the book that he will write, which they will carry with them to the promised land.  John may be the very one who frees them from captivity, allowing them to leave their countries and come over the Irreantum to America.

Wrapping this up

Is any of this true?  Could our standard interpretation of these two chapters be mere shadows?  I will leave it up to the reader to figure that out for him or herself.  One thing is for sure, if 1 Nephi 13 has yet to be literally fulfilled, we know what the very first thing mentioned is: the formation of a great and abominable church and the death, torture and captivity of the saints.  Let us hope that none of the things I wrote above have any basis in prophetic reality.

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57 Comments

  1. Could our standard interpretation of these two chapters be mere shadows?

    I certainly think so. So much of prophecy included graded-levels of fulfillment — micro and macro, cosmic and earthly, individual and national, past and future: a fractal pattern, as it were.

  2. Notice the similarity in wording between these two passages?:

    “The merchandise of GOLD, and SILVER, and precious stones, and of pearls, and FINE LINEN, and purple, and SILK, and SCARLET, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,”
    (Revelation 18:12)

    “And I also saw GOLD, and SILVER, and SILKS, and SCARLETS, and FINE-twined LINEN, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots. And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.”
    (1 Nephi 13:7-8)

    Some might accuse Joseph Smith of plagiarism, but if Joseph is truly the prophet he claimed to be then it wouldn’t be plagiarism, it would be God referring to something he’s said earlier, which I find he does quite often. (I just finished reading the book of Psalms and I was surprised at how much “plagiarism” there is in the New Testament.)

    Anyhow, I find if you cross reference passages like this it often opens up whole new vistas of light and knowledge and that is the case here. When I realized that the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, the Mother of Harlots spoken of in the book of Mormon is one and the same as the one spoken of in the book of Revelation (Revelation 17:, I realized that 1st Nephi is definitely written as a book of prophecy. In fact much of the Book of Mormon is, especially the four books of Nephi.

    When you run across phrases like “mother of harlots” do a quick look up at scriptures.lds.org. If you find only a few matching verses, they will very likely be closely related.

    You can find more of my thoughts on “the Book of Mormon Harlot” here:

    http://noblenarcissist.wordpress.com/2012/11/03/the-book-of-mormon-harlot/

  3. It’s also interesting to note that since most Christian churches have historically had more women in active participation than men and since they don’t allow for polygamy, they create a situation which forces their women to make themselves into harlots in order fulfill the measure of their creation.

    The passage “which slayeth the saints of god” very likely (at least in part) refers to the mass genocide known as abortion. 50+ million abortions in the United States since Roe v. Wade 1973! Do you think all this killing goes unnoticed by God?

  4. i would say columbus is not the fulfillment, he was not moved upon by the spirit of god, maybe he was but he doesn’t show the fruits of revelation. he was on a mission from a king and queen, to find trade routes, and as soon as he arrived in the americas he started thinking about the possibilities of slavery. does not sound like a man influenced by the spirit. not to mention how wrong he was in his assumptions of earth geography, and his false prophecies regarding the monarchs of spain.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Prophecies

  5. Here is some more commentary on these chapters:
    Step-By-Step through the Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13
    Step-By-Step through the Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14
    This blog post brings up possible new shadows:America and 1 Nephi 13: and shows (in the ensuing comments) that LDS differ widely in their views on how these prophecies, or even whether they, were fulfilled. Which is indicative that they haven’t, yet, been fulfilled.

    Btw, I wrote the above post earlier today, from beginning to end, on the seat of my pants. I didn’t have anything fleshed out in my mind when I started. The difficult to interpret passages concerning the Gentiles being separated from the Lamanites and the “many waters” = Irreantum = Pacific Ocean interpretation would have entirely escaped me had I never done that Lehi’s Trek to China post. In fact, initially, back in 2008, when CTC had first brought up his alternate interpretation, I had done a cursory review of ch. 13 and came to the conclusion that the chapter read chronologically (and therefore CTC was wrong on that point) and that those particular verses (vs. 10-13) posed a problem (which he got around by fast-forwarding and rewinding in the timeline.) But for some reason, I just put this whole thing on the back-burner and figured I’d take it up in earnest some time later. I suppose had I not done the China Trek research, I never would have finished this post because verse 10 is a precise fit for the European Gentiles and a shadow, by definition, cannot be the same as the real thing (a precise prophetic fit.) So, were it not for my belief that Lehi came through China and over the Pacific Ocean, I never would have considered that “many waters” meant a specific body of water already defined in the text by Nephi as Irreantum, which, if we knew the path, would indicate what its modern name was, and thus, I would have stopped at that verse and tossed the draft into the trash before publishing it. I guess what I’m saying is that I am more surprised at the coherency of the above interpretation than anyone else. I wasn’t sure it could be read chronologically and literally, but I guess it can.

  6. I would take the yoke of iron as being meant figuratively.

    “It is an imperative duty that we owe to God, to angels, with whom we shall be brought to stand, and also to ourselves, to our wives and children, who have been made to bow down with grief, sorrow, and care, under the most damning hand of murder, tyranny, and oppression, supported and urged on and upheld by the influence of that spirit which hath so strongly riveted the creeds of the fathers, who have inherited lies, upon the hearts of the children, and filled the world with confusion, and has been growing stronger and stronger, and is now the very mainspring of all corruption, and the whole earth groans under the weight of its iniquity. IT IS AN IRON YOKE, it is a strong band; they are the very handcuffs, and chains, and shackles, and fetters of hell.”
    (D&C 123:7-8)

  7. Those who think the Book of Mormon is a fabrication of Joseph Smith’s imagination should read this verse:

    “…wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren.”
    (1 Nephi 13:30)

    The United States government seemed quite intent on utterly destroying the Native Americans at the time Joseph was living and they had the capability of doing so. However, they ultimately chose to do the more moral thing and integrate them into U.S. culture rather than eliminate them. I say “more moral” because they certainly did many unjustifiable and downright ruthless things to the Native Americans, but at least they didn’t exterminate them entirely. So in a way this verse is a fulfilled prophecy.

  8. In response to dallon,

    You don’t have to be a perfectly righteous man to be influenced by the Spirit. I believe many men have been influenced by it and haven’t even know it.

  9. This verse is inherently prophetic:

    “And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews [birth to crucifixion] and also unto the Gentiles [Peter to Great Apostasy], then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles [Joseph Smith to apostasy] and also unto the Jews [house of Israel], and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.”
    (1 Nephi 13:42)

    As you can see this makes a grand total of four comings (two to the Gentiles and two to the Jews). The 2nd coming to the Jews will be similar to his first coming to the Jews in that he also came to the house of Israel (Samaritans), but he pretty much ignored the Gentiles, unless they sought him out.

  10. why wouldnt it be lief erickson? he was a gentile and found the americas long before columbus, and wasn’t quite as wicked

  11. about the native americans, the military forces and generals at the time (and many settlers in general) would have rather seen all natives killed. it was only in response to the general public back east crying out in defense of them that they were not able to get away with it. the government is not doing anything moral towards them.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/aaron_huey.html

  12. Which Native Americans did Leif Erickson go “forth unto”? The Inuits? He didn’t bring any gospel with him, nor did any of his people who followed him.

    “In Simon Weisenthal’s book, ‘Sails of Hope,’ he argues that Columbus’ voyage was motivated by a desire to find a safe haven for the Jews in light of their expulsion from Spain. Likewise, Carol Delaney, a cultural anthropologist at Stanford University, concludes that Columbus was a deeply religious man whose purpose was to sail to Asia to obtain gold in order to finance a crusade to take back Jerusalem and rebuild the Jews’ holy Temple.”
    (http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/20/opinion/garcia-columbus-jewish/index.html)

  13. I would say the “wars and rumors of wars among all the nations” started with World War I. That’s why it’s called a world war, because it involved all the superpowers of the world at that time. So the work of the Father begins some time after World War I, probably even after World War II (that makes it “wars” plural). It is implied that these wars ARE the wrath of God or at least a part of it. Interestingly these two wars led up to Israel’s war for independence in 1948 and a mass migration of Jews out of Germany into the future state of Israel.

  14. This Wikipedia statement says it all:

    “World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history. Over 60 million people were killed, which was over 2.5% of the world population.”
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties)

  15. Proceeds

    Nephi wrote, “i beheld a book | and it was carried forth among them,” and after the angel asked if he knew its meaning, he says the angel told him, “behold | it proceedeth out of the mouth of a jew.” “Proceedeth” is the present tense. Nephi then writes, “and i | nephi | beheld it.” So, this reads to me as if Nephi was given the vision of the creation of the book, meaning that he actually saw the book dictated by the Jew in the moment when the angel said, “Behold! It proceeds (present tense)…”

    Captivity

    The only captor mentioned in chapter 13 is the great and abominable church, at the beginning of the chapter. Later, Nephi mentioned that there are Gentiles that go out of captivity. The interpretation above assumes that the captivity of these Asian Gentiles comes from communist regimes, despots and other forms of tyrannical government, but that is likely the wrong interpretation. The logical connection to make is that these Gentiles have been brought down into captivity by the great and abominable church.

    Symbols in the prophecy

    Nephi is consistent in giving the interpretation of every symbol in this vision. In chapters 11 and 12 he unfolds the following symbols: tree of life, fountain of living water, rod of iron, great and spacious building, mists of darkness, river of filthy water, etc. There are also obvious symbolically descriptive titles, such as calling the great and abominable church, “the mother of harlots.” Apart from these obvious instances, the prophecy reads (to me, at least) as if it is describing real or literal people, places, things and events.

    Two editions

    The typical interpretation is that the book that proceeded out of the mouth of a Jew is the Bible and that the Bible got corrupted before it went out to all the nations of the Gentiles, so that there is no longer any uncorrupted Bible found anywhere. The post’s interpretation is obviously divergent, in that I read two versions (of a book that is not the Bible) among the Gentiles, one pure and one corrupted. But that is not to mean that I can’t read it as only one version (a corrupted one) like everyone else. I went with the two version reading because it fascinated me when I saw it (or read it) in the text and because I hadn’t heard of such a thought before.

  16. the beothuk people on newfoundland. he established permanent settlements there, whereas columbus just showed up robbed and left. “deeply religious man” is a joke, deeply religious men are not motivated by gold to finance crusades, thats what deeply greedy men do. leif ericson converted to christianity after his first trip to america and preached to his family and converted some of them. columbus just served the monarchs and popes of his day without questioning their wrong interpretations of the scriptures, and added his own wrong interpretations

  17. dallon,

    I recommend you read this article:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/20/opinion/garcia-columbus-jewish/index.html

    Or ignore it and continue to believe the ill reports you’ve heard of Columbus.

  18. So, here’s a question: Is the great and abominable church spoken of by Nephi and the secret combination spoken of by Moroni one and the same, or are they different organizations?

    The GAAC is associated with murder (the killing of saints), torture, slavery (captivity), riches and whoredom. The SC is associated with mass murder (the killing of saints), slavery, gain (riches), power, secret works of darkness and abominations. The founder of the GAAC is the devil, while the SC is built up by the devil. The GAAC is called the most abominable church, above all, while the SC is called the most abominable and wicked, above all.

    The SC (which is undoubtedly among us now) routinely performs religious (satanic) “rituals” in front of the masses. So, it has a religious component. (See the Vigilant Citizen web site for more info on that.) And the prophecies of the GAAC show an organization that controls the world, as if it were a world government. Yet, the SC seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, showing that it, too, has global reach.

    So, are these two prophesied organizations one and the same, or different?

    I’ve been pondering this today and I wonder if the SC is the hidden GAAC, corresponding to the mystical church of Christ, while the GAAC is the publicly established church, corresponding to the physical incarnation of the church of Christ, organized and established according to the laws of the land on 6 April 2012. In other words, that what we are seeing as the SC has, as its plan, to legally establish a church, by changing the laws, or corrupting the laws, sufficiently to allow such an abominable church to have a “legally accepted” presence among the other churches. So, according to that view, the GAAC has not yet been formed, but is in the process of formation, or the SC is working behind the scenes to get it formed, by their various machinations among the governments and people of the world.

  19. noble: i did read it. whether he was jewish or not he did not show fruits of repentance that would lead me to believe he had the guidance of the spirit. “ill reports?” how about what he wrote in his own diary

    “It appears to me, that the people are ingenious, and would be good servants and I am of opinion that they would very readily become Christians, as they appear to have no religion. They very quickly learn such words as are spoken to them. If it please our Lord, I intend at my return to carry home six of them to your Highnesses, that they may learn our language”

    source: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1.asp

    he also wrote in a letter to ferdinand and isabella “Gold is most excellent; gold constitutes treasure; and he who has it does all he wants in the world, and can even lift souls up to Paradise.”

    sounds a lot like “you can buy anything in this world with money” – apparently even crusades to take back the holy land!

    LDSA: i think the SC would be happier to control the major churches of the world rather than start their own. maybe the church of satan will grow in size and influence, but its seems too overt to deceive most people

  20. Dallon,

    The letter to the king and queen of Spain was no doubt meant to appeal to their Catholic sense of righteousness (i.e. monetarily paying for the sins of others to save them). As a Jew in hiding, he’d almost be required to do this to make himself seem Catholic.

    As far as the first quote, he most likely mistook the dark skin of the Native Americans for being related to the blacks. In that time, blacks were often traded as slaves. He was a product of his time. Remember, even Brigham had a few slaves. It’s quite normal in Israelite tradition. There are even laws specified in the Torah governing how you are to treat your slaves and servants.

  21. Concerning Secret Combinations and the Gadianton Robbers:

  22. but guess what he broke all the torah’s laws on slavery. he did not release anyone on the jubilee years, and he definitely ruled “with rigour” over them. he was a product of his time, not of revelation and inspiration.

    re the video: not too surprising. i think many church members feel that way. the communism remarks seems a little to tired to the younger generation who never grew up under its threat. i think a new vocabulary is neccesary to identify this threat other than communism and socialism.

  23. Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel. And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed. (Ether 4:15-16)

    So, the Lord says, “when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, [yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit,] then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you…and then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John …be unfolded in the eyes of all the people.” Could this scripture be speaking of different revelations written by John than what is had in the Bible? Also, its appearance seems tied to the people’s prayers of faith (petitioning the Lord for it.)

  24. Nephi wrote:

    And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (1 Nephi 14:11)

    But Nephi did not give the meaning of “many waters.”

    John wrote:

    And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (Revelation 17:1-2)

    But John received, and gave, the interpretation of “many waters”:

    And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (Revelation 17:15)

    It is plain that “the whore of all the earth sitting upon many waters” is a symbol, just as the “great and spacious building” and the “rod of iron” and all the rest were other symbols of Nephi’s vision. It apears that John and Nephi were looking at the same thing sitting upon many waters, so we could assume that “many waters” means the same in both visions. However, “many waters” was used by Nephi seven times in his vision. If you plug John’s meaning into all seven instances that Nephi used the term, you end up with yet another bizarre and divergent interpretation. It is much easier to say that here “many waters” means this and there “many waters” means that. I suppose that is what most would do, interpreting “many waters” as the oceans (and specifically the Atlantic Ocean) in some instances, and when getting to the verses that talk about the whore sitting upon “many waters,” they would use John’s interpretation of the term.

    In my interpretation above, using CTC’s view, I opted and tried for consistency throughout, so, even though “many waters” was a real or literal thing (the Pacific Ocean) earlier in the prophecy, when I got to the whore sitting on many waters I used the same interpretative key, meaning it still was the Pacific Ocean. Of course, the real Pacific Ocean can still have the symbolic meaning given by the angel to John.

    The Pacific Ocean is actually the best ocean to fit the description of “many waters” since it is the largest of the oceans. But saying that the GAAC will have its headquarters somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, well, that was me just throwing things out. Personally, if I’m going to choose a headquarters for a church destined to become the greatest, meaning that it will have the most membership (since just about everyone in the world will join it), I’d choose a location that is known as a Paradise, such as Hawaii, etc.

    I suppose some would scoff at this idea, since the scriptures plainly show that there will be a headquarters in the city of Babylon. (Many interpret that as purely symbolic, but my understanding is that the city of Babylon will be rebuilt and become the world capital.) Yet there may be a pattern of two capitals, just as there will be both a Jerusalem and a New Jerusalem built up, so there may be a Babylon and a New Babylon built up. Sounds nuts, I know, but the devil has a habit of creating imitations of what God does. So, perhaps there will be a physical or literal component of the symbol of the whore sitting upon the many waters, so that her governmental seat will be located on some paradise island in the Pacific Ocean. Hence the interpretation in the post above.

  25. Perhaps “many waters” are the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans combined — and the continent that “sits on the many waters” would be America — the operating base for the “whore of all the earth” — who’s made all nations “to drink from the cup of her wine of fornications”, etc.

  26. i like that interpretation justin. as a result of america’s shoving the drug war down the collective world’s throat, the only acceptable mind altering substance has become alcohol, which was also used extensively in the government’s war of attrition against the native americans. and america is now the largest consumer of wine in the world, and 4th largest producer of wine, 3rd largest producer of all types of alcohol. and the numbers are rising so that in a few years (if the course stays the same) they will be the largest producer

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_alc_pro_percap-energy-alcohol-production-per-capita

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wine-producing_countries

    also, america’s fornincation, largest producer of pornography, and exporter of monogamy laws to the entire world.

    http://www.cracked.com/article_17300_6-ways-that-porn-runs-world_p2.html

  27. I don’t know why some of you want to look for another John. The John spoken of in 1st Nephi is obviously John the Beloved or John the Revelator from the Bible. Most people haven’t the slightest clue what John’s Revelation means (although they try awfully hard), but Joseph Smith said it was one of the easiest books for him to read. Why is that? I think in due large part because Joseph Smith had the Book of Mormon and the keys contained in it, but he also could speak to God on any given topic and receive answers in their purest form from God. I think the verse from Ether that LDSA brought up is very informative:

    “Behold, WHEN YE SHALL REND THAT VEIL OF UNBELIEF which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, WHEN YE SHALL CALL UPON THE FATHER IN MY NAME, WITH A BROKEN HEART AND A CONTRITE SPIRIT, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel. And THEN SHALL MY REVELATIONS WHICH I HAVE CAUSED TO BE WRITTEN BY MY SERVANT JOHN BE UNFOLDED IN THE EYES OF ALL THE PEOPLE. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.”

    1st Nephi helps to identify who the whore that sits upon the many waters is, but it doesn’t do much for identifying what the many waters are. The book of Revelation however helps us in this regard. We find when God speaks of horns and mountains, he is speaking figuratively of kings and kingdoms (respectively). Therefore, don’t you think the “many waters” would be just as figurative? I don’t have to speculate on this, because the book of Revelation makes it clear:

    “And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”
    (Revelation 17:15)

    “And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.”
    (Revelation 19:6)

    I’ll leave you with that interpretive key so you don’t figuratively drown in the Pacific Ocean :)

  28. Justin,

    I like that interpretation, also, since Jacob referred to the promised land as an island, but then it would open up the possibility of the European Gentiles having literally fulfilled the prophecy already, instead of just shadow fulfilled it. Of course, we could say that both oceans are the many waters in a general sense, and in a specific sense it is the waters (the Pacific Ocean) that Lehi came over upon. Since the whore sitting upon the waters part was a symbol (even though it was very likely a real, planetary configuration/plasma manifestation that Nephi saw in the heavens in the image or sign of a whore sitting upon the waters) that verse’s use of “many waters” may have general application, so that it referred to both oceans and to America as the island, just as you stated, whereas the other verses’ use of “many waters” could have more specific usage, since it was talking about a specific group of Gentiles separated and coming over an (apparently) specific body of water.

  29. noblenarcissist,

    Just to clarify: I did not mean to imply that the John of the Bible and the John mentioned by Nephi are not the same person. What I meant was that they are the same person, but that John, who was prophesied to play a part in the last or latter days, and to yet prophesy before nations, kings, tongues and people, and who was still yet to restore all things as an Elias and gather Israel, that that same John, who was the beloved apostle of Jesus Christ that was translated, that that John would yet apppear at some point and produce a book of scripture that we do not have. In other words, something different than what we have in the Bible.

    Now, this is not my idea, but CTC’s idea. The whole purpose of this post is to see if it is possible that the current interpretations of 1 Nephi 13 and 14, in which many believe these verses to have already been fulfilled, to have been mere shadow fulfillment. A shadow is, by defition, “an imperfect and faint representation.” So, a shadow fulfillment can’t be a fulfillment in which a prophecy is fulfilled every whit in perfection. There must be something missing that makes it a mere shadow.

    The very fact that there is not total consensus among the latter-day saints regarding the fulfillment of these chapters indicates that they are potential shadows, for when a prophecy is fulfilled every whit, everyone recognizes its fulfillment, either by saying the prophets were inspired of God, or by saying they made lucky guesses.

    Much of the current interpretations (of literal fulfillment) are not obvious to many people. For example, the scholars would say that the Jew from whose mouth the book was supposed to proceed was Ezra, a scribe that was instrumental in compiling the Old Testament, and that the book Nephi saw is the Old Testament. (See the step by step “more commentary” links I left in a comment above.) I’ll quote from that page what it says about this Jew:

    According to Cleon Skousen, in 1 Nephi 13:23 the angel seems to be referring primarily to the Old Testament (he gets to the New Testament in verse 24). The statement of the angel that the Old Testament came forth from “a” Jew is highly significant. This undoubtedly refers to the famous Jewish scribe, Ezra, who was the compiler of the Old Testament record which we use in modern times. Ezra was not a prophet but a priest and a scholarly scribe who lived in Babylon. Nearly a century before his time, the Jews had returned to Jerusalem in 538 B.C. and rebuilt the temple of Solomon which was dedicated in 516 B.C. In spite of this, however, Ezra heard that they were not obeying the commandments of God but were desecrating the sacred temple rites with their impure lives. He therefore went to Jerusalem to start a massive reform movement. Once he arrived in Jerusalem, however, Ezra discovered the Jews had lost practically all of their scriptures. It will be recalled that in ancient times the scriptures were maintained as separate books, and one by one these had become lost. Ezra therefore gathered together all of the prophetic writings which he had brought with him as well as those he was able to find in Jerusalem, and compiled them into a single canon of scripture which became our Old Testament. It is estimated that Ezra did most of this work between approximately 450-400 B.C. This allowed him to include the writings of Malachi who lived during the latter part of this period. The Jews then went into 400 years of dark ages so Malachi is the last prophet cited in the Old Testament. In view of these known historical facts it is literally true that the existence of our present Old Testament scripture is the direct result of the careful compilation made by Ezra, and it was entirely accurate for the angel to say that this book proceeded from the mouth of “a” Jew. [W. Cleon Skousen, Treasures from the Book of Mormon, Vol. 1, p. 1106] See the commentary on 1 Nephi 5:11: 5:18]

    This scholar is not the only one to have such an opinion. Here’s another quote:

    According to George Reynolds and Janne Sjodahl, the prophet here in 1 Nephi 13:23 is speaking on the Old Testament, as it was to appear through the labors of Ezra and his associates and successors. Ezra undertook the work of collecting all the sacred writings that existed at his time. This work included not only the discovery of copies in various places, the rejection of those that were not authentic and the copying of manuscripts the contents of which could not otherwise be secured, but also the correction of the text, after careful examination of the variations that must have been found. It was this work that was shown to Nephi in his vision of the Old Testament, and therefore, he, very properly, says he beheld it coming “out of the mouth of a Jew” (1 Nephi 13:23). [George Reynolds and Janne Sjodahl, Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 4, p. 262]

    And also this:

    According to Robert Parsons, if we accept this meaning of the phrase, “the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew” (1 Nephi 13:24), we would have to accept the idea that Ezra’s collection of writings more nearly approached what was in the brass plates than the writings now contained in our Old Testament, since the angel also told Nephi that the book contained the fulness of the gospel. The fulness of the gospel of necessity would include a correct understanding of the creation, the fall, the atonement, and the principles of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost. All of these are essential for one to enter the celestial kingdom, and the fulness of the gospel prepares and qualifies one to enter that kingdom. Since the Pearl of Great Price and the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible make it abundantly clear that much has been lost from the Old Testament, and since our King James Version of the Bible agrees to a great extent with the Dead Sea Scrolls, it seems apparent that many Old Testament losses occurred before the time of Christ. However, since Paul seems familiar with the Tame and Wild Olive Tree allegory (Romans 11:17), and since Jude refers to writings in the book of Enoch (Jude 1:14), perhaps losses after the time of Christ also occurred. Elder Mark E. Petersen wrote: “When Nephi spoke of the ‘plain and precious’ parts of the scripture which were eliminated he spoke of the witness of Christ which is no longer in the Old Testament.”323

    In light of all we know today, perhaps a better interpretation of “the book [that] proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew” would be to identify it as the Bible, which came from the mouth of Jesus and also the mouths of many Jews. This would be consistent with 1 Nephi 13:24, which states that the book contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bore record, and verse 25, which states that “these things [the book] go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles.” However, a distinction should probably be made between the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Greek Septuagint translation (around 250 B.C.) and the Dead Sea Scroll Old Testament manuscripts (around 200 B.C. to A.D. 70) were already corrupted before the New Testament was written. The New Testament was pure at first but was later corrupted. Thus, there never was a time in which both the Old Testament and the New Testament were uncorrupted at the same time, though the component parts of each of the testaments were pure when they “came from the pen of the original writers.” [Robert E. Parsons, "The Great and Abominable Church," in Studies in Scripture: Book of Mormon, Part 1, pp. 48-51]

    The bold type was all my own emphasis. This shows that these scholars are guessing. They are trying to make a shadow into a literal fulfillment, but they can’t. Nephi saw that the GAAC is the institution that corrupts the scriptures and also that the book which proceeds out of the mouth of the Jew would contain the writings of John in it. Also, that the book would go forth in purity from the Jews to the Gentiles. If we take any of what the scholars say as fact, something inevitably doesn’t fit. For example, if we say the scriptures were corrupted before Christ, then the GAAC was formed before Christ and also the uncorrupted scriptures must have gone to the Gentiles before Christ. If we say that the book that proceeds out of the mouth of the Jew is the Old Testament, we are left wondering about the New Testament writings (of the twelve, not four, apostles) that Nephi says will be in it. If we say that the book was the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments, we must say it was compiled or proceeded out of the mouth of more than a singular Jew, thus tossing Ezra aside. Whichever view you take to make the prophecy fit, you are left with unaccounted for threads hanging out. This indicates it is a shadow and its fulfillment is still future to us.

    Now, if we take the view that this book that proceeds out of the mouth of a Jew is a future book of scripture, in which an apostle of the Lord (John) will return and dictate, write and restore the full, uncorrupted canon of New Testament prophets and apostles and saints, then it can contain pure writings of Old Testament times, as well as pure writings or sayings of New Testament times, while still only coming from a single Jew.

  30. Another thing brought up on someone else’s blog is that if we take the view that the European Gentiles came to the land which would end up being the continental USA and scattered the Lamanites there, then we have the research which puts the Lamanites in Meso-America to contend with. If we say that the American Indian tribes are not Lamanites (for they lived in Meso-America), then we must toss out the European Gentiles fulfilling the prophecies in the USA. That means that the American Revolutionary War was not what fulfilled the scriptures about mother Gentiles waging war against Gentiles that go out of captivity, and we must look south, to Mexico or other countries. And so on and so forth. It is a give and a take regardless of the view, unless the view is that these are all just shadows.

  31. noblenarcissist,

    There is also this scripture which comes to mind:

    And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you. (Mormon 8:15)

    Then there is this:

    Therefore, when ye shall receive this record ye may know that the work of the Father has commenced upon all the face of the land. (Ether 4:17)

    And finally this:

    And those who receive it [the Book of Mormon] in faith, and work righteousness, shall receive a crown of eternal life; (D&C 20:14)

    These scriptures seem to indicate that receiving the Book of Mormon is more than just believing that it is the word of God. Also, that those who receive it, meaning call upon the Father in the name of Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit, repenting of their sins and coming to Christ, would individually (“whoso,” which speaks of individuals) receive the “greater things,” while if multiple people or a group of people start receiving it (“ye,” plural) then that will be a sign that these records are about to come forth to the population in general.

    Another thought, I wonder if Moroni has been given the charge of the “greater things.” After all, why say, “Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you”? Are not all things possible with God if there is faith among men? I wonder if, when we “receive” the Book of Mormon, it will be Moroni who will appear to us to let us know the “greater things.”

  32. pretty much every country in north and south america and most of the caribean fought wars of independence and was populated by europeans, though the ratio of europeans to natives was highest in north america

  33. LDSA,

    I will make a prediction: you will never get a consensus of opinion amongst the general body of Latter-day Saints on any prophecy. This is because most people are trying to interpret scripture via brute force. They aren’t humbling themselves before God and getting the true interpretive keys in the same way Joseph Smith did. They are leaning on the arm of flesh (their minds) for the answers. The problem with that approach is that God intentionally gave these revelations in parables to blind the arm of flesh types of people to the true meanings of these revelations. If you want to interpret them you have to have the Holy Ghost. There is no substitute. Trying to find a consensus of opinons from the scholars of the day (even if you only pick LDS scholars) is the same as the old pharaohs who sought out their magicians and wise men to interpret their dreams. Sure they may give you guesses and who knows some of those guesses could actually be right, but you’ll never know it unless you personally have the Holy Ghost. To quote a truly wise man, “Seek you first the kingdom of heaven and all these things shall be added unto you.”

  34. Elder Mark E. Petersen wrote: “When Nephi spoke of the ‘plain and precious’ parts of the scripture which were eliminated he spoke of the witness of Christ which is no longer in the Old Testament.”

    This is only true in part. There are plenty of witnesses in the Old Testament of Christ for those with eyes to see (Isaiah 53 & Psalms 45 just to name a few). In fact, Jesus cited the books of Isaiah, Psalms, and Jeremiah many times, showing how he was fulfilling these prophecies.

    However, I won’t argue that the Jews at the time of Christ’s first coming, weren’t living under the partial law of Moses. Jesus was a restorer of fullness of the law/gospel just as much as Joseph Smith was. Wherever there is a loss of knowledge, it is usually due in no small part to a loss of the law, both spoken and written.

  35. While I agree that Ezra was a type and a shadow of the restorer of the law and the covenants, I don’t think the passage in 1 Nephi 13 is very ambiguous about which book is being spoken about, although it is pretty ambiguous about which Jew it originated from.

    “And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that THE BOOK PROCEEDED FORTH FROM THE MOUTH OF A JEW; and WHEN IT PROCEEDED FROM FROM THE MOUTH OF A JEW IT CONTAINED THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL OF THE LORD, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.”
    (1 Nephi 13:24)

    There were several Jews who helped to write the Old Testament, so we can’t say with any confidence that Ezra is the man spoken of here. You might just as well put a finger on King David or Solomon or Isaiah or Jeremiah or a host of other Jewish prophets who contributed to the Old Testament. Many books in the Old Testament are purported to have been written by Moses (the Torah specifically), who wasn’t a Jew at all, but a Levite. In all likelihood the Jew being named here is anonymous to us even today. He may have been an unknown Essene who compiled the Torah and other important prophetic books together. I don’t think his identity is all that critical, since God doesn’t bother to identify him.

    “Wherefore, THESE THINGS GO FORTH FROM THE JEWS IN PURITY UNTO THE GENTILES, according to the truth which is in God.”
    (1 Nephi 13:25)

    Ok, now we’re getting specific. What time in history has the gospel gone from the Jews to the Gentiles? Only once that I’m aware of and I see no prophecy saying it will ever happen again. This was during Peter’s time (recall that Jesus said his mission was to the house of Israel). So we can know from this verse that the scriptures that Peter had (who was a Jew) were pure (i.e unaltered by the Great and Abominable Church of the devil).

    “And AFTER THEY GO FORTH BY THE HAND OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB, FROM THE JEWS UNTO THE GENTILES, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.”
    (1 Nephi 13:26)

    I quote this verse merely to reinforce the fact that book has gone forth in purity from Jesus’ Twelve Apostles (Jewish) to the Gentiles before it gets corrupted by the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil. Even though you might be tempted to think that some of the Native Americans were Jewish (potentially in part), this couldn’t have been fulfilled among them because the Book of Mormon never identifies any of the inhabitants of the Americas as Gentiles until after the coming of Columbus.

    To quote a famous Jew of our day:
    “When the answer is simple, God is speaking.” (Albert Einstein)

    He’s probably right, but I would suggest anybody and everybody to pray about it just to make sure.

  36. “I will make a prediction: you will never get a consensus of opinion amongst the general body of Latter-day Saints on any prophecy. This is because most people are trying to interpret scripture via brute force. They aren’t humbling themselves before God and getting the true interpretive keys in the same way Joseph Smith did. They are leaning on the arm of flesh (their minds) for the answers. The problem with that approach is that God intentionally gave these revelations in parables to blind the arm of flesh types of people to the true meanings of these revelations.”

    I disagree. god makes these things clear enough for little children to understand them. he commands us to be like unto little children, not bible scholars. the scriptures make it clear when what is written is a parable or not. i see no such disclaimer before these prophecies. and even if they were, the parables were only not explained to those who did not follow him, anyone who did his will and asked him would receive the explanation from him or his disciples. god is not the author of confusion, and the scriptures are not unintelligible to those who do not have the spirit, if it were so then no one would be converted.

    2 Nephi 32:4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
    7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

    Alma 13:22 Yea, and the voice of the Lord, by the mouth of angels, doth declare it unto all nations; yea, doth declare it, that they may have glad tidings of great joy; yea, and he doth sound these glad tidings among all his people, yea, even to them that are scattered abroad upon the face of the earth; wherefore they have come unto us.
    23 And they are made known unto us in plain terms, that we may understand, that we cannot err; and this because of our being wanderers in a strange land; therefore, we are thus highly favored, for we have these glad tidings declared unto us in all parts of our vineyard.

    D&C 45:15 Wherefore, hearken and I will reason with you, and I will speak unto you and prophesy, as unto men in days of old.
    16 And I will show it plainly as I showed it unto my disciples as I stood before them in the flesh, and spake unto them, saying: As ye have asked of me concerning the signs of my coming, in the day when I shall come in my glory in the clouds of heaven, to fulfil the promises that I have made unto your fathers,

    D&C 50:10 And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand;
    11 Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face.
    12 Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand.

    D&C 133:57 And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant, reasoning in plainness and simplicity—

  37. “I quote this verse merely to reinforce the fact that book has gone forth in purity from Jesus’ Twelve Apostles (Jewish) to the Gentiles before it gets corrupted by the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil. Even though you might be tempted to think that some of the Native Americans were Jewish (potentially in part), this couldn’t have been fulfilled among them because the Book of Mormon never identifies any of the inhabitants of the Americas as Gentiles until after the coming of Columbus.”

    god called the lamanites jews in D&C 57:3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse. 4 Wherefore, it is wisdom that the land should be purchased by the saints, and also every tract lying westward, even unto the line running directly between Jew and Gentile;
    D&C 19:26 And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God 27 Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.

    that being said, i doubt this scripture refers to the 12 in america, since we have no record of their testimonies for the GAAC to alter. we have the record of one (nephi) and none of the rest. maybe when the fulness of the BOM comes forth it will contain them and the GAAC will attempt to alter them?

    perhaps the one jew referred to would be moroni?

  38. D&C 27:5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim

    D&C 128:20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed.

    “they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.”

    our modern LDS church has taken away the plain truths of consecration, leaving instead the not very plain law of tithing, and the fruits of it are bitter and ugly. how many books have been published by desert to make isaiah “more clear?” how many manuals and preach my gospels take the place of the revelations of god that give plain and clear instructions? the plain instruction to take only one coat and no purse or scip has been replaced with the complicated funding of missions we know have. how many times have our temple covenants been changed? we are now only allowed to be baptized once, unless we get excommunicated.

  39. More thoughts on this view:

    The Book of the Lamb of God

    would proceed out of the mouth of a Jew (1 Ne. 13:23);

    would contain
    a record of the Jews (1 Ne. 13:23),
    the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel (1 Ne. 13:23),
    many of the prophecies of the holy prophets (1 Ne. 13:23),
    and the fulness of the gospel of the Lord (1 Ne. 13:24);

    would contain
    the records of the prophets (1 Ne. 13:39),
    and the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (1 Ne. 13:39-41);

    would contain
    the writings of John the apostle of the Lamb (1 Ne. 14:20-23),
    which writings would consist of
    many things which Nephi had seen in vision (1 Ne. 14:24),
    the remainder of Nephi’s [1 Nephi 11-14] vision (1 Ne. 14:21),
    many things which have been [before Nephi's time] (1 Ne. 14:21),
    and writings concerning the end of the world (1 Ne. 14:22);

    would be
    a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many (1 Ne. 13:23);

    and was called by the angel
    the book of the Lamb of God (1 Ne. 13:38).

    The writings of John, the apostle of the Lamb

    Are these writings a subset of the book of the Lamb of God or are they the very book of the Lamb of God?

    The things which he [John] shall write are just and true; and behold they [the things which John shall write] are written in the book [of the Lamb of God] which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they [the things which John shall write] proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew [John?], or, at the time the book [of the Lamb of God] proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew [John?], the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men. (1 Ne. 14:23)

    Both singular and plural fruit?

    But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins [Lehites]; and unto him [the seer] will I give power to bring forth my word [the plates of brass] unto the seed of thy loins [Lehites and other descendants of Joseph]—and not to the bringing forth my word [the plates of brass] only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word [the book of the Lamb of God], which shall have already gone forth among them. (2 Ne. 3:11)

    Wherefore, the fruit [seer] of thy loins [Lehites] shall write [translating the plates of brass]; and the fruit [apostle John] of the loins of Judah shall write [producing the book of the Lamb of God]; and that [the translated plates of brass] which shall be written by the fruit [seer] of thy loins [Lehites], and also that [the book of the Lamb of God] which shall be written by the fruit [apostle John] of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins [Lehites], and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. (2 Ne. 3:11)

    In other words, the fruit of the loins of Joseph, meaning the prophets and apostles and disciples of Christ who are descendants of Joseph, shall write the word of God, as given to them by the Lord and the power of the Holy Ghost, and the fruit of the loins of Judah, meaning the prophets and apostles and disciples of Christ who are descendants of Judah, shall write the word of God, as given to them by the Lord and the power of the Holy Ghost, fulfilling the prophecy of plural fruit writing, and then at a future day, the prophecy will be fulfilled singularly in that a singular fruit of the loins of Joseph, meaning a seer who is a descendant of Joseph, shall write the word of God that was previously given to the plural fruit, restoring those words, and a singular fruit of the loins of Judah, meaning the apostle John who is a descendant of Judah, shall write the word of God that was previously given to the plural fruit, restoring those words, then these two restored records will “grow together,” confound false doctrine, lay down contentions and establish peace among the Lehites.

    The record of the (singular) fruit of the loins of Judah will come first, or will have already gone forth among the Lehites, when the record of the (singular) fruit of the loins of Joseph appears.

  40. It’s interesting the Lamanites are identified as Jews since they are descendants of Manassah and Ephriam, not Judah.

  41. The seed of Lehi (and Nephi) is a mix of Manasseh, Ephraim and Judah lineages. See this. There is a mixture of Nephi’s seed (including his “numbered seed”) among the Lamanites, so the Lamanites have all three tribal lineages in them, too.

  42. dallon,

    There certainly are parts of scripture which are so simple that a child could understand them, but when it comes to prophecy you’ll find as many interpretations as scripture. If it were so simple, everyone (or most everyone) would come to the same conclusion. That’s evidence enough in my mind that something more is needed when studying prophecy. In my mind that something else is the Holy Spirit.

  43. I meant “you’ll find as many interpretations as INDIVIDUALS.” Too bad there isn’t no option to edit.

  44. My argument wasn’t that the Nephites/Lamanites didn’t have Jewish blood. I believe it is quite possible they do. My argument is that there weren’t any people identified as “Gentiles” who lived in the Americas until Columbs arrived. At least that seems to be the story I get from 1st Nephi.

  45. dallon wrote:
    “our modern LDS church has taken away the plain truths of consecration, leaving instead the not very plain law of tithing, and the fruits of it are bitter and ugly. how many books have been published by desert to make isaiah “more clear?” how many manuals and preach my gospels take the place of the revelations of god that give plain and clear instructions? the plain instruction to take only one coat and no purse or scip has been replaced with the complicated funding of missions we know have. how many times have our temple covenants been changed? we are now only allowed to be baptized once, unless we get excommunicated.”

    I agree, Consecration is pretty clearly laid out (one of the most clearly laid out of the doctrines Joseph taught) and many are suffering because it is not being lived.

    Isaiah on the other hand is not so clear. I appreciate the studies done by Gileadi, but still don’t always agree with his interpretations. Since Isaiah and Psalms were among the most quoted scriptures by Jesus, they probably should be among the most studied. The Book of Mormon certainly encourages us to do so.

    There is definitely debate about what is meant by preaching without purse or script. My belief is that it means that you go without money (which requires faith that God will provide) and you don’t use rehearsed lines (i.e. you speak what the Spirit tells you to speak). It certainly is a higher level of missionary work, but I don’t doubt that the boys in the field are still doing a lot of good, despite not obeying the full law.

    Although it’s quite easy to prove rebaptism is a doctrine practiced in the Book of Mormon, it’s also easy to overlook. But those who look at it which honest minds no doubt will see it’s there.

  46. So, I’ve been playing “CTC’s advocate” with this post, but taking this view still poses some interesting problems. For one, it makes 2 Nephi 26 only shadow fulfilled, meaning that its literal fulfillment has not yet come to pass. To give some examples, take 2 Ne. 26:20.

    And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor.

    The stumbling referred to here, according to CTC’s interpretation, requires that the book of the Lamb of God (BotLoG) already would have gone forth (by the hand of John), the GAAC already would have been formed, the BotLoG already would have been corrupted by the GAAC and sent forth, and thus the Gentiles stumble because of the perverted version of the BotLoG (not the Bible.)

    I do not know whether CTC would interpret 2 Nephi 27 as shadow fulfilled, requiring a future, literal fulfillment. I think most people would see verses 6-23 as speaking of the Book of Mormon and that that prophecy has already been literally fulfilled, without any shadow fulfillment. When I read those verses, my mind turns only to the Book of Mormon as fulfilling the prophecy every whit, except, maybe, for this part:

    But behold, it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall say unto him to whom he shall deliver the book: Take these words which are not sealed and deliver them to another, that he may show them unto the learned, saying: Read this, I pray thee. And the learned shall say: Bring hither the book, and I will read them.

    And now, because of the glory of the world and to get gain will they say this, and not for the glory of God.

    And the man shall say: I cannot bring the book, for it is sealed.

    Then shall the learned say: I cannot read it.

    Wherefore it shall come to pass, that the Lord God will deliver again the book and the words thereof to him that is not learned; and the man that is not learned shall say: I am not learned.

    Then shall the Lord God say unto him: The learned shall not read them, for they have rejected them, and I am able to do mine own work; wherefore thou shalt read the words which I shall give unto thee. (2 Ne. 27:15-20)

    This is the only part of the prophecy that bothers me, the fact that the Lord speaks of a plurality of learned, calling them they. In other words, when I read this prophecy, what I envision is a man takes the words to a learned organization, composed of many learned men, and that they speak to the man via a single learned man, who represents the body. In other words, this is a noted scholarly institution, not just a single person with letters after his name, to whom the words are taken, and they refuse to read the words brought to them because they want the book they were written upon, in order to obtain the honor of being the ones to translate the work and to obtain money. Perhaps such money would come from being hired to translate, perhaps from obtaining copyrights on the translation and subsequent publications, perhaps by using the precious metal the record itself is written upon, or by some other means. So, after they refuse to read (translate) the words brought to them and demand (through the learned man who is their mouthpiece, spokesman or representative) that the book itself be brought, the man says he can’t bring the book, because it is sealed. The spokesman, again speaking for the group, says he can’t (won’t) read it. And so, when the man returns without them reading the words, the Lord speaks of the learned as a they, and not a he.

    Martin Harris’ account of Professor Charles Anthon has three things wrong with it. The first is that Anthon is an individual, representing an individual assessment, not a group assessment. So, there’s that. The other thing is that the Book of Mormon is reformed Egytian, or Egyptian shorthand, and, according to Moroni, nobody had ability to translate their language except as given by God. So, Anthon’s assessment, according to Harris, that it contained true “Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic” characters was just his best guess. Anthon likely was just blowing smoke up Martin’s you-know-what and didn’t want to be seen as a fool. The fact that Mitchell sanctioned what Anthon said (according to Harris), also shows that Mitchell was blowing smoke, too. Finally, Harris says that Anthon actually read the words and then recanted, ripping up the certification, but Nephi’s prophecy seems to indicate a refusal to even read the words brought to them unless the entire book is brought. In other words, this is a power play. “We won’t give this translation our stamp of academic approval (certifying its correctness) unless we are the ones doing the translating. We refuse to even look at the words you have brought us, unless you accede to our demands.”

    If this prophecy is to be literally fulfilled by an institution of learning, it may be that the words and the book itself referred to in the prophecy are written in a language that is known, such as Hebrew, which means that the institution actually would have the capability of “reading them.” Which would then make sense to send the words to them for certification, that through their certification, they might give glory to God in his miraculous work of having an unlearned man translate.

    I suppose I ought to throw one more wrench out there, to spice things up just a bit. 2 Ne. 27:1-5 is a prophecy of the last days, not the days of Joseph Smith and the restored foundation, but of a future time. I have always read and understood those verses as speaking of a future time. When I come to verse 6, I must pull the prophecy back into the past, to the times of Joseph Smith and the translation of the Book of Mormon. This has to be done, otherwise verses 6-23 cannot be speaking of the translation of the Book of Mormon published by Joseph Smith in 1830. If, however, the prophecy is read chronologically, then we end up with an altogether different picture. Either the book spoken of in those verses is the Book of Mormon, translated again by the power of God, or it is another book.

  47. zo-ma-rah: mulek’s people joined the nephites, then the nephites mixed with the lamanites, that’s where the jewish lineage comes from. mulek had the same ancestors that joseph (jesus’s father) did.

  48. what about leif erikson and the settlements he established in newfoundland? was he not a gentile? and how is columbus both a jew in hiding and a gentile?

  49. I’m not sure what God considers Leif Erikson. He may be a Gentile, but it feels speculative to say one way or the other. The description in 1st Nephi strongly suggests that Columbus was a Gentile. My belief that Columbus was also a Jew is consistent with my beliefs since a Gentile is a mixture of Israelite and non-Israelite blood.

  50. I just found out that in the novel World War Z, which will soon become a major motion picture, there is a floating U.N. command center off the coast of Hawaii. From the Wikipedia:

    Seven years after the start of the zombie pandemic, a conference is held off the coast of Honolulu, Hawaii, aboard the USS Saratoga, where most of the world’s leaders indicate they want to wait out the zombie plague, but the U.S. President successfully argues that the only way to survive physically and psychologically is to go on the offensive.

    World War Z is yet another Gadianton plan for the future, published as a novel (and later as a movie) according to their habit of foretelling what they are going to do. What I found particularly interesting though, is that the U.N. command center (the World Government) is in the midst of the Pacific Ocean.

    This makes me wonder yet again about the cursing of the waters by John, and the blessing of the land for the righteous’ sake…

  51. Re: the Book of Mormon being translated again (which I mentioned five comments up), I’ve always wondered about the Book of Lehi (the lost 116 manuscript pages). Surely these pages and their altered version are long gone/destroyed by now. If so, surely the Lord plans to re-reveal the plates and re-translate that portion of the record, causing 2 Ne. 27 to be fulfilled again (more completely this time). I just cannot see the Lord telling Mormon to write the Book of Lehi just for it to be lost. No, I have an inkling that the Lord had always intended to have all the words written by Mormon as the book that would end up going to the Lamanites. Since His works cannot be frustrated, perhaps the plates of Mormon are destined to come back…

  52. I’ve been looking over Jacob chapter 5 again and I believe that the servant in Zenos’ allegory is John the beloved apostle. (The Lord of the vineyard is Jesus Christ, the Creator of the world, which is the vineyard.)

    There are three phases spoken of in the chapter: the scattering, the grafting and the gathering. The grafting, in particular, is something I had previously missed as a separate, intermediary phase. I had always lumped the grafting as part of the gathering of Israel, like everyone else. I no longer hold that view.

    The Gentiles are first grafted (by John) into the house of Israel and they (the Gentiles) take over the leadership, then later Jesus and John and also other Eliases graft four scattered branches of the house of Israel back into the house of Israel, starting with the Lamanites. The Lamanites (apparently) take over the leadership and have the Jews and Gentiles grafted into them. The same repeats with the next scattered branch, which is grafted into the house of Israel and the Jews and Gentiles grafted into them. And so on with the remaining two scattered branches. (Four groups scattered from their mother group to the four corners of the earth, thus five groups total.) In each case, the scriptural canon of each group is added to the canon of the other groups (five total groups and five total canons.) After the grafting is finished, the gathering occurs and they become as one body.

    I will put my notes up at a later time and link to them here, so people can see what I’m talking about. But in the meantime, I just wanted to say that there appears to be much more to this prophecy than what I had previously thought. John the apostle is to play a major role in its fulfillment, which leads to all sorts of interesting views. If it wasn’t for this post, I might not have made the John connection in Zenos’ words.

  53. Here’s the link mentioned in the previous comment:

    Zenos’ allegory (taken from Jacob 5) divided into FOUR SECTIONS with interpretation [in brackets] and summaries

    Keep in mind that these are just notes. I might fine-tune them as I gain more understanding.

  54. More on the two retranslation comments above

    If the Book of Mormon will again come forth, this time in its complete form, then 2 Ne. 27:27 will have an interesting and unexpected, literal fulfillment:

    And wo unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord!
    And their works are in the dark;
    and they say:
    Who seeth us,
    and who knoweth us?

    And they also say:

    Surely, your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay.

    But behold,
    I will show unto them,

    saith the Lord of Hosts,

    that I know all their works.

    For shall the work say of him that made it,

    he made me not?

    Or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it,

    he had no understanding?

    If we put the Book of Mormon in its proper order, as arranged by Mormon and Moroni on the plates, we get a title page (written by Mormon), the Book of Lehi (written by Mormon), the first two chapters of Mosiah (written by Mormon), the rest of Mosiah, Alma, etc., all the way to the Book of Moroni, then we get the second title page (written by Moroni) which ends the entire book, followed by the small plates of Nephi placed at the end of the record. In other words, the whole thing gets turned upside down from how it is arranged now…

  55. ldsa I don’t remember which article you left this one comment on, about your prayer and the restoration/resurrection of the Nephites and the (broken) Nephites covenant. Something you had said there about opting into the covenants regardless of lineage reminded me of something I wrote in a letter to my brother on his mission. I was talking with him about some questions he’s had about Gentiles and the house of Israel in these days in regards to 3 nephi. I felt impressed to tell him that the future day will come when Gentiles, I won’t say all but at least all of the repentant Gentiles, are given the chance to truly be adopted in. and it will be easier for the remnants who are stuck on reservations join gentile society. I was reminded of 4 nephi when identification as Nephite or lamanite was much more of a choice due to intermarrying, or when the anti-nephi-lehis left their brethren and were numbered among the nephites. I’m just still figuring these thoughts out and just wanted to share them

  56. It seems that there are many times dual fulfillments. But you first hve to correctly assess the many waters correctly. There is more evidence today tht the Book of Mormon took place in North America, meaning mainland United States. More evidence is forming michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, Tennesee, etc. as Book of Mormon lands. That being the case, it is sketchy at best with literal fulfillment following this premise. Forever we want to rely on physical geology for our scriptural understanding. That leaves us many times wanting.

  57. That being the case, it is sketchy at best with literal fulfillment following this premise.

    I don’t follow you. Why would the premise of the OP be sketchy if the Book of Mormon took place in the heartland of the United States? Could you please explain what you mean?


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