The Perfect LDS Church Member


On this the week of the semi-annual General Conference of the LDS church I would like to give an invitation to actually live without an archy over you. If you attend or participate in the LDS church you have two external powers over you. LDSA took pains early on in this blog to explain that anarchy as a societal structure was not the condition of confusion and chaos people have been taught to believe it is. Anarchy simply means that rather than humans having a ruling authority over them they ruled themselves from the light within.

Even now as you read this most people have doubts about the usefulness of living without an external ruling body over them. So they remain where they are. They might be pretty sure the government is not to be trusted. They might feel like they know the church has slid downhill spiritually. But hey the government is still letting me live. And the church is not preventing me from living the gospel. I can still draw closer to God in the church especially because I know what is up.

I saw this Youtube video and it got me to thinking about the reality of being a member of the LDS church.  Please watch it then we will talk about it.

Now you may say what you just saw and heard is an extreme example, that he is a real nut case. I beg to differ. He is simply being open to the actual state of his mind. He is in fact being a perfect Mormon in his political beliefs. Yes you heard me correctly. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints you are commanded to have the exact same view as the man in the video.

Do we know world history? Do you know what was done under the laws of the nation of Germany in the 1930’s and 40’s. If you were told to by the government you were by law to get on a train taking you to a death camp. And once there you were, by law, to do whatever they told you to do. It was all legal. And if you were not one of those put on the trains you were by law commanded to help in making sure the individuals who were supposed to get on it were on it and did not escape. If you helped in hiding or protecting any such person you were breaking the law. And as a member of the LDS religion at that time in Germany you were breaking the commandments of the church if you didn’t follow these unconscionable laws of the Third Reich.

The church has not backed away from that stance. President Hinckley said we were commanded by the 12th article of faith to be that way. There is in fact a strengthening the church committee.  The church is spying on you in behalf of the government. The IRS receives a report on how much tithing you pay every year if they ask for it.  There is not one thing in all the facets or benefits you have as a church member that is not under the authority of the government. The work of all the priesthood quorums, Relief Society, Youth groups, home and visiting teaching, fast offerings, temple work , all your covenants and ordinances before God through the LDS church are 100% subject to review and approval by the government you live under. At any time if the government said to stop baptizing, stop sealing, stop meeting the whole church would obey under the direction of the 15 prophets, seers and revelators.

In the fight for liberty many people have become aware that the biggest threat to your liberty is from the government itself. Ezra Taft Benson said many people say they will wait till the church comes up with a program or the prophet gives specific instructions. Then he said, “Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution.”  The reality is the LDS church since at least 1890 will never set up a specific church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. And how can I say that? Because the LDS church is completely under the control of the US government and those controlling the government have no intention of saving the principles of the US constitution.

Obama did sign into law the act which gives any US president the power to take anyone’s life. But there are those who say I am going to keep on supporting the church which agrees with obeying such a government. Yes the church which does not speak out against such things but indoctrinates me and my children in obeying the will of the government no matter what that will is. Do we think that supporting even with just our attendance does not have an effect upon our spirit? Karma is real. The law of the harvest is real. It is operative even now.

Why on earth does the LDS church ever need to have people bow down to worship a graven image? Is Satan “the great deceiver” really that stupid to ruin the good thing he has got going now. He can extend his control over people and they think it is the inspired will of God from the mouth of a prophet. I do not think Satan wants anyone to stop attending the LDS church. I think he wants as many people as possible to be in that group.

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51 Comments

  1. I’m beginning to wonder if the LDS Church is the 2nd Beast in the Book of Revelation:

    “And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. … And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”
    (Revelation 13:11-12,15)

  2. I am suspicious that the LDS Church is going to announce that gays can now be married in their temples this coming October General Conference. Wouldn’t an October Surprise like that secure Romney the win for Presidency? Well, it might take a little dip in the stock market to totally secure it, but I don’t think it would take much more than that.

  3. re: The Beast,

    I always thought that 2nd beast was a planet with a curved/sickle-shaped plasma discharge.

    The Two Beasts:

    I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

    And all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, “Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”

    The first beast is a planetary body that arises up from the horizon over an ocean, discharging ten horn-like projections and having seven orbiting satellites – much like the Red Planet earlier. At this point, the interplanetary displays between the Red Planet and this new beast will cause real idolatry to return.

    And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on earth in the sight of men.

    And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their forehead: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. For it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    The second beast is a planetary body that arises up from the horizon over the land, discharging two horn-like projections.

    [from Two Plasma Interpretations of Portions of Revelation]

    re: Same-sex temple marriages,

    I’ve said elsewhere in comments that I state it as my educated opinion and guess that the LDS church will administer same-sex marriages in temple once they become legalized [which they likely will very soon].

    And that legalized polygamous marriages will follow on the heels of legalized same-sex unions — but that the LDS church will not start solemnizing polygamous marriages [even when they’ve become legal]/

  4. Justin,

    Congradulations. You are right. The second beast IS a planet with a curved/sickle-shaped plasma discharge!
    You are reminding me of the man who took issue with the fact that I would refer to God as a Father. You see God is energy. I demonstrated to him that I obviously believed as he did that God was energy. How could he be a Father if he was not energy? How could he be if he was not energy? But by the same token…how could he NOT be a Father if he was energy. Isn’t energy all things and all things energy?

    Why do we seek for things we do not understand? What is the sick comfort we find in placing anything that comes to us as a loving invitation, and then a direct and personally applicable TRUTH, or later as a challenge to our pride….why would you wanna take all that and launch it into the stratosphere …and beyond into deep space. Why are we scared of KNOWING GOD? Who can deny that we are even more stiffnecked than the ancient Israelites…what doesnt get better gets worse. We are in all likelihood the same Israelites reincarnated and back to our old prideful ways times infinity. God…get up in that mountain top…and stay there!….Wait that isn’t good enough for us…Listen God….you are just a planet named eeeeeeaaaaaaaoooooooaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! okay? and you are coming but meanwhile ….meanwhile what? You got some homework to do? Oh yeah you and I all got some homework to do. Do you have an assignment due? Yeah there is an assignment that is long overdue. Jumping back n forth between MACRO and MICRO only to avoid the MARK the ISSUE AT HAND. Is not going to last forever.

    Is there a destroyer planet? I don’t see it….but wait…it’s there. I am not so foolish as to say it is not. But when I say to you….yes, YES Brother…I believe you…there IS a big ol’ planet that fullfills the role of the 2nd Beast….Its a DEATHSTAR…and its almost fully operational….you are right Brother…you will soon be vindicated and validated when all eyes behold it….but just one little detail…not even a mote or a beam….just an eyelash…but I must point it out to you…since you have pointed out such WONDROUS things to me…may I point out that WE ARE BUILDING IT!

    Oh, Im sorry …Im eeeeeeaaaawwwwwaaaaaaayyyyy out of line. Or am I ALIGNED with it? There is only one yahWAY to know.

    Please no more Justinfication…its seriously breaking my heart. You laugh and say “My avatar is NOT my actual face.” right its a mask…but guess what brother…so is your physical face. So it is EATHER all real or if not then it is ….we are ALL PHONY.

    I LOVE YOU.

  5. Justin any planet which moves in our solar system is related to our life and the things happening on the earth. If it is not connected to the spiritual realities in the lives of the people then it would not be out there moving around us there would be no plasma discharge unless it is an interaction. The spiritual creates the physical.
    There are the exact same spiritual principles in operation on all the various levels of creation; universal, galactic, solar, earth, international, national, community, neighborhood, family and personal level.
    So your planets are also organizations and the person or spiritual entities behind those organizations. These planets you are speaking of are created after the spiritual forces which bring them about have been in full operation. The earth was created spiritually before it was physically present. The physical can not appear until the spiritual creation is complete.
    The LDS church has for many years been indoctrinating those who attend with the concept that their salvation depends upon following the brethren no matter what they say or do. What better way to deceive those that dwell on the earth than this.
    Satan controls the governments => Governments control the church => The church controls you.
    After this type of worship has continued for so many years when a planetary body does show up the person will not recoil in shock as to what he is doing it. He will have been part of the effort to bring the planet into the physical space where he is. But when he was doing the work to create it spiritually the planet was unseen. So when it appears the TBM will continue the worship it because it is the same thing he has been doing all along. The scriptures you quoted are interesting. They speak of beast who is not the power and not the dragon but gives power to the dragon and the dragon in turn gives power to the beast. The dragon through the beast is able to deceive them who dwell upon the earth. So even when he is made real by the beast he is still in the deception mode.

  6. P. S. to all readers if you think I am wrong please show me where and how.

  7. Elder Chantdown:

    Congradulations. You are right. The second beast IS a planet with a curved/sickle-shaped plasma discharge!
    You are reminding me of the man who took issue with the fact that I would refer to God as a Father. You see God is energy. I demonstrated to him that I obviously believed as he did that God was energy. How could he be a Father if he was not energy? How could he be if he was not energy? But by the same token…how could he NOT be a Father if he was energy. Isn’t energy all things and all things energy?

    DYC:

    There are the exact same spiritual principles in operation on all the various levels of creation; universal, galactic, solar, earth, international, national, community, neighborhood, family and personal level.
    So your planets are also organizations and the person or spiritual entities behind those organizations.

    If you two are suggesting that the second beast [or any of the components of prophetic narratives, for that matter] can be both a planet, an organization on earth, an historical event, a specific person in history, and a state-of-mind within any given person throughout all time — then I agree.

    Scripturally-prophecy contains these nested-patterns — in which the whole is reflected in any one of the parts [as a fractal is arranged] — like plasma, existence is scalable, from the Planck Scale to the Universe as a whole.

    However, I don’t find it a Justinfication [I LOVE YOUr (s)wording with that one BTW, Chantdown] to post what I did in response to someone writing whether they think the LDS church is the “beast coming up out of the earth with two horns like a lamb…“.

    If we’re looking for the fulfillment of prophecy in the wrong places, then we’ll miss the patterns when they unfold as the prophets who saw the vision described them. We’ll be satisfied with a fulfillment that adheres to the prophetic narrative partially and with a bit of imagination with interpreting phrases — and call that “fulfilled in every whit“.

    Elder Chantdown — in earnest — what would have been your response to the first comment? Your remark that:

    What is the sick comfort we find in placing anything that comes to us as a loving invitation, and then a direct and personally applicable TRUTH, or later as a challenge to our pride….why would you wanna take all that and launch it into the stratosphere …and beyond into deep space.

    suggests that you feel I was being uncharitable, high-minded, or dismissive to noblenarcissist’s contribution with what I quoted from my post on that portion of the Book of Revelation.

    I ask, not to be contentious, but as a genuine inquiry — would you [or dyc, if he too is so inclined] post for me what you’d consider the appropriate, LOVEing response. Would I have been better served to have just kept my [digital]-mouth shut?

    Also — dyc — I like your exposition on the spiritual preceding the physical, and being required first before the physical manifests.

    These planets you are speaking of are created after the spiritual forces which bring them about have been in full operation.

    The physical mass of rock matters little when compared to the interactions that go on to produce the spiritual effects.

  8. Isn’t energy all things and all things energy?

    No. Energy is an outcome of the activity patterns of the Spirit hovering over the matter (Gn 1:2). I do not trust in Energy, I trust in the Spirit.

  9. I will let Chantdown answer your question. But I don’t think you were being uncharitable. I hope I made this clear in the O P (Opinion Piece, Original Post, Obtuse Polemic) above, but my desire is for each person attending the LDS church to think ad pray real hard about getting out now. I know each person must follow what they feel the Lord and their God or god wants for them right now. And when I say their god I am talking about your own heart and mind. We think that well it is not good to do just what we want since it might not be the highest most holy thing we could be doing so we should defer to another God. The fault in that logic is that we must take the steps we are ready for or we will not learn the truth from the experience we are in. I was 27 years in a marriage that if I was more spiritually mature I would have stood up and said , “You know what? Enough is enough. Stop the way you are treating me or there will be a divorce now,” But I had not learned what I needed to know. Having said that I will add that such major life changes are not made without some trepidation. We can not make forward progress unless we are willing to do something “scary” and daring. Choosing to act in the face of fear is the real exercise of faith. So don’t wait till the way is easy and free of fear. When we pray with real intent to act upon the answer God does give us an answer free of fear. But then He does require us to walk that way in the face of the fear which Satan will send to try and dissuade us from following the inspiration heaven sent.
    There was a scripture I was going to cite in the post. Here it is: 2Nephi 23:15 Every one that is proud shall be thrust through; yea, and every one that is joined to the wicked shall fall by the sword.

    As the LDS church becomes more and more apostate it will become more and more wicked. The US government is already very wicked. The scripture talks of the tares being bound together. I can see a very literal fulfillment of this scripture. Being joined with the LDS you are under an obligation to fight the battles of the US government. Just like the wars in the book of Mormon and Ether the two opposing sides went through and everyone had to join or be killed and they ended up all being killed (except for the remnant of the Lamanites) anyway because they were joined to an evil organization.
    And even the part about the sword reminded me of the theory that after the bombs and bullets are all gone and the war is still going the deaths will take place by swords. So I am thinking if you stick with the LDS you will be array in battle or at least seen by one of the sides as their enemy and be thrust through. But why get out now? Because long before you are physically killed you will be spiritually dead.

  10. The Word and Sword are the Cross of Jesus. Out of this, all scripture, writings and diarrhea of words are crap. The Holy Ghost is over everybody nowadays, but look at the Cross and be really saved!

  11. Justin,
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with your comments…and I did not feel they were being uncharitable or high minded toward anyone actually. I mean your not saying that Noblenarcissist or DyC is “looking for the fulfillment of prophecy in the wrong places” or “satisfied to imaginatively interpret phrases of scripture and call it fulfilled in every whit do you? Your not afraid that either of them might be missing the mark by looking at what is directly in front of them so as to assure that they are continually led to action by the spirit in the here and now, just because they are not taking the time to talk about planets and plasma just yet or at every opportunity. Is there a problem with them starting at the level of the fractal whole where they, YOU and all of us find ourselves RIGHT NOW and then tie it into the planets and maybe back into the path ahead of us since the light coming from their lamps would be pretty useless if it werent used to illuminate the path ahead of them, which, sorry to say does not involve immediate dealings any big planetary body except earth and then everything else by extension.
    I mean people were apparently very thrown off by my mentioning of slavery which in their minds had absolutely nothing to do with the 13th amendment being discussed in that post a while back… although the 13th amendment does have something to do with slavery and in my mind the whole video seemed a lil out of place on an blog that is supposedly anarchist…so I guess I should have made a comment about grilled cheese sandwiches right? Or maybe join LDSA in pointing out some “Hot Chick” in the background of this video clip here at the 1 min 30 sec. mark. There is nothing wrong with talking about planets, plasma or cute girls is AT ALL. I felt to comment on the habbit of using those topics without tying it in to the discussion at hand. I and others have seen and feel that at least the way it comes out on the computer screen seems a bit strange. A bit like tip toeing around issues that are effecting LDS and non LDS people worldwide and beyond the veil right now at THIS DAY and age. It seems to be a slight shift with no inherit harm in the words….words are (S)words as you showed me…but they seem unwilling and even scared to deal with the confused and scared people out there who could really benefit from the voices on this blog. Not because you or I are such special voices. But because we can choose to speak with the voice of angels instead of the voice of scriptorians or intellectuals or even anarchists. How is this done ….in many ways but WITHOUT FEAR and in tune to what others are saying and feeling…line upon line, precept upon precept…verifying with the Holy spirit every thing which causes us to wonder….questing faithfully, calmly but PERSISTANTLY to have the courage to build by acting upon what we know…the very little we do know…coming back and bearing bold testimony…being mutually uplifted by the courage we will then unlock and invite to step forward in the form of brothers and sisters from all over…not by killing time and constantly BRANCHING HIGHER AND HIGHER AT THE RISK OF BECOMING LOFTY BRANCHES REMOVING OURSELVES BIT BY BIT FROM OUR ROOTS.

    That’s all. I love you guys more than you know at this point. Because I’m not just reading the wonderful material you have blessed my life with, from Book and internet site referals to the thoughtful and divinely inspired combination of heartfelt and left brain thought out ideas and beliefs shared in your personal contributions in the form of posts and comments. Call me NEEDY….but you know what maybe that is my message from CHRIST JESUS for the CHRIST US here that I and others affectionately call the CybeTribe….that GOD NEEDS US to answer the call to be focused and firm and coordinated even …making the most honest effort we can summon at any given point in our lives…to KNIT OUR HEARTS TOGETHER…to LIVE and LIBERATE the captives. To make moves while the sun still shines. To fill our lamps with oil and not simply knock down practical attempts to give helpful suggestions in the hopes of communicating the SPIRIT OF GOD EXPERIENCED. This is harvest time….the veil is thinner at this time of year than other points on the calendar. It is my prayer…not that we open up another Facebook Forum or even start another blog…we could do podcasts…many wonderful ideas are out there and none of them are necessarily bad. But my sincere prayer is that we progress past that…all these things (commenting, blogging) ought we to do…and ALSO more. But certainly lets not fall back. Now is a gathering time. It is happening. Lets all be a part of it. After the Fall comes a Winter of Love. The harvest can be great and followed by a snuggly supportive version of that Winter of Love, something along the lines of what Liv has illustrated and put into words with her Gimme Some of That Mormon Hippie Love post…it can resemble in many aspects the tribal order delineated in great detail in one of LDSA’s many wonderful posts, it will also hum with the humanity and spirit of the nostalgic posts and many references to the purity of early Christian Communities that you have graced these pages with. Lets search our historical, pre-historic and even pre-existential memory banks to begin to reconstruct on Earth as it is in Heaven. Time to take it to the streets or else the Angels that are already all around us at every moment…which LDSA seems so determinedly desirous to SEE with his eyes….or else when we suddenly behold them…as the prophet Balaam…or as the prophet Joseph Smith Jr. when second guessing the urgency to live the law that had been revealed to his heart and mind…they will be holding a SWORD over us….far more serious than any of our S-words on this blog. Destruction seems a harsh S-Word, like when it is promised as the end result of certain of Emma Smith’s actions…but it this sword is a symbol of something real…although the angel messenger his or herself will not likely lop off your head…backtracking results in a loss of the spirit which is not to be taken lightly since spiritual death is what leads to physical death.

    Please hear my words and feel the love in them….I am not trying to be rude at all by comparing you to Balaam. Hey, that would make me the DUMB ASS who is talking now right?

  12. I think there are definitely “signs in the heavens” regarding events on earth. However, I approach them cautiously, because they are just as easily misinterpreted as dreams. One fascinating sign I’ve run across recently is a tetrad (4 lunar eclipses in a consecutive two-year period) coming up in the years 2014 and 2015. These lunar eclipses are often called blood moons. Tetrads aren’t all that uncommon, but tetrads that fall on Jewish holidays are. The last times we had similar planetary alignments like this was in 1948 and 1967, the year of Israel’s Independence and the Six-Day War in which the Jews reclaimed much of their holy land from the Muslims (http://www.triumphpro.com/blood-red-lunar-eclipses-and-solar-eclipses.htm). Because of this sign and my understanding of the Jubilee Year, I suspect we won’t go to war with Iran until 2014, although it seems quite imminent at present.

    Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu has just recently stated that Iran will be nuclear ready sometime after Spring or Summer of 2013 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhaUVmYBXD0), so it will be interesting to see if they will hold off war with Iran until 2014.

  13. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your comments…and I did not feel they were being uncharitable or high minded toward anyone actually. I mean your not saying that Noblenarcissist or DyC is “looking for the fulfillment of prophecy in the wrong places” or “satisfied to imaginatively interpret phrases of scripture and call it fulfilled in every whit do you? Your not afraid that either of them might be missing the mark by looking at what is directly in front of them so as to assure that they are continually led to action by the spirit in the here and now, just because they are not taking the time to talk about planets and plasma just yet or at every opportunity.

    EZ EC — while I can say with confidence that I know of yours and Sister Chantdown's love for me and mine — and while I appreciate the (s)wording of "Justinfication” [or is that Justin’sFixation, or Just-a-Fiction — lol — my wife especially got a kick out of it].
    […]
    I’m getting that FEELing that (s)WORD-clanging is verging on becoming a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal — so that we chant-down through the ground like Rumpelstiltskin, mad because the Queen named our game.

    Yes, there is a complementary difference [a conspiracy between opposites to appear as different things] between the micro-sized, chANT’s, crawling about DOWN here at the base of things — and the macro-sized, ch(PL)AN(E)T’s, orbiting around UP in the heavens. Agreed. So now let’s breath-IN, and breath-OUT. INhale — EXhale. Solve et Coagula.

    Now — I’m aware that I am in a peculiar position with how I relate to the church. My opinion about the present order of things is too critical for my mainstream peers [I admit there’s problems and suggest alternate ways of BEing an LDS] —

    But I’m far “too generous” for my astute-observing sisters and brothers [I still believe it to be the church of Christ and don’t support a “OH, all is lost”, Corrupt-apostasy, JUMP ship” view of things].

    To get this back on the subject of DyC’s OP topic — I’ll go ahead and state it as my present feeling/understanding that: The LDS church is the church of Christ. The Lord has yet to abandon His church and has yet to cease calling them His people — therefore I’m not inclined to be less tolerant than He.

    Do the criticisms that people raise about things like leader-worship, relying on the corrupt works of the flesh, lack of prophecy and revelation from men sustained as prophets and revelators, usage of tithing funds to have sufficient for our needs and invest the difference for usury, etc., etc. have merit? Do I think they’re valid? Absolutely. But it is my belief that it is still the church of God that is doing those things. We have not ceased to be the Lord’s people because of these condemnable works. The church of Christ can remain “true” while being “dead” and “damned” [CON-DaEMNED].

    So no — I don’t think that Revelation 13:11-12,15 — in any sense — means the LDS church. That’s why I commented as I did — because I think declaring the LDS church to be the 2nd beast is a picky-choosy way to read prophecy.

    Prophecy isn’t a series of separate images that I can assign meanings to here and there, to this-or-that thing, event, or person as it suits me. It is one, cohesive story. So — if the LDS church is going to be the 2nd beast, then you’ve got to fill out the rest of the narrative accordingly.

    Who’s the 1st beast, arising out of the sea with seven heads and ten horns?

    Who’s the dragon who gives power to the first beast?

    What’s the “power” that the dragon gives?

    What is the 1st beast’s “seat” and “great authority”?

    When did the 1st beast’s “war with the saints” occur, such that they were overcome?

    What does it mean that the 2nd beast [the LDS church] “speaks as a dragon”?

    How does the 2nd beast [the LDS church] cause us to worship the wound of the 1st beast that was healed?

    In what sense does the 2nd beast [the LDS church] cause us to receive the mark in the hand/forehead?

    In what way does the number of the name of the 2nd beast have anything to do with the LDS church?

    You say I went over everyone’s head into the stratosphere with my interpretation as to what the “2nd beast” is — but I think to say that it’s the LDS church just because we happen to be critical of the present state of things in the LDS church is akin to OWIW interpreting the “sky being darkened” is referring to that volcano erupting in Iceland two years ago.

    To say the prophetic vision is being fulfilled by this-or-that thing — must include that thing in the whole of the narrative-vision that the prophet saw. There’s better ways to point-out/discuss issues without ascribing them to the fulfillment of apocalyptic visions. We can be harvesting Spirit-warriors in the here-and-now without needing the LDS church to be the beast of John’s vision.

  14. noblenarcissist:

    Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu has just recently stated that Iran will be nuclear ready sometime after Spring or Summer of 2013 (VIDEO), so it will be interesting to see if they will hold off war with Iran until 2014.

    An Iran/Israel war is one of the three events I’ve been keeping on my radar — to decide when I think the end of our political state and the decent of the LDS church into a plurality of separate and unrighteous Mormon sects is occurring.

    And unless something unknown comes about and cools the waters over there in that part of the world — it does look as though they will boil-over and convert to steam relatively soon.

  15. I just want to second everything that Justin said in this comment above. And as usual, he said it better and more concisely than I ever could.

    This is the very reason why I published Curt Porritt’s The Apostasy of the LDS Church article on the blog, to demonstrate that this is still the Lord’s church.

  16. Nice list Justin! I also like to take a holistic approach to prophecy, so I agree, whatever the 1st and 2nd beast are, they must match the picture of revelation completely. Although my comment above is admittedly terse and provides no substantiation, it was meant as such. I made the comment to draw out what other Mormon-minded prophecy-oriented folks like yourselves are interpret these beasts to be.

    I myself wrote an article (http://noblenarcissist.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/harlot-and-the-beast/) identifying who I believe to be the 1st beast and the harlot. However, I have yet to write concerning the 2nd beast, because I’m still a little unsure about its identity. However, I’ll give you some of my preliminary thoughts at present.

    I suspect the 2nd beast to be a religious entity, because it is described as having “two horns like a lamb”. The lamb may represent Christ, so this beast appears to represent Christ, although it speaks with the voice of a dragon (Satan/Lucifer/the Devil). To me this sounds like a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    I’m not sure if you’ve heard anything of or about a pastor named Lindsey Williams, but he purports to have some inside contacts into the Jewish elite who rule America. He’s stated that the United States government is going to use the 501c3 status of the churches in America to force the leadership to deceive their members into blindly accepting the agendas of the One World Order. The Mark of the Beast may be one of these agendas. He includes this in an overall agenda titled “The Devil’s Messiah”. However, the LDS church most likely wouldn’t be the only church doing this, so maybe this beast is a conglomeration of all the churches in the United States which cause their members to bow down to the image. It’s pretty obvious that the membership in the LDS church is already primed with the sheep-like mentality towards their leadership necessary to make this happen (the topic of this blog article).

  17. Btw, Justin,

    I got that EC stands for Elder Chantdown, but what does EZ stand for?

  18. *Easy* — as in “Take it easy“, “Be easy“, etc.

  19. Ah, see you threw me off with the Brother and Sister Chantdown thing. I was thinking EZ must stand for Sister Chantdown since EC stood for Brother Chantdown and my mind couldn’t figure it out.

  20. Maybe it could be “Establish Zion”.

  21. Hahaha…yeah like Nacho Libre’s oft repeated line “Take it easy.”

    I’m getting that FEELing that (s)WORD-clanging is verging on becoming a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal

    These were my thoughts after posting from my heart. Before reading these subsequent comments I was thinking along the lines of what I mentioned. Feeling needy of BALANCE. If we are not tag teaming similar to Alma & Amulek then things deteriorate to something like what Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 14:

    5 I awould that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

    6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, aexcept I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

    7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

    8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

    9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

    10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

    11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

    I really do not want to come off sounding like a barbarian to you or visa versa.

  22. Elder Chantdown:

    for greater is the one
    that prophesieth
    than the one
    that speaketh with tongues
    except there be one to interpret

    […]
    I really do not want to come off sounding like a barbarian to you or visa versa.

    I guess when you or I end-up speaking in tongues — it’s good to know the other can be there to do the interpreting. So anyone who stumbles in on a CybeTribe meeting and catches me chant-ing

    EEEEAAAAOOOOAAAAEEEE

    over in a corner, with my hands held towards the sky — can have you to translate. And vice-versa.

  23. EXACTLY and visa versa.You should be translating as well. Instead of making an offender for a word or title.

    Since you are accusing us of being wrong, then let us be more clear than ever, more precise in hopes that you do not reject the spirit of God just because the messengers don’t meet your approval.

    WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT THE SO-CALLED MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS ARE THE SECOND BEAST.
    There is no such thing as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The LDS Church is a corporation…a corporation sole with only one member at any given time. This is what the Catholic Church and the LDS Church does. One did it first and the other is following suit. So why, how can we say that the LDS Church is still the Lord’s Church? It never was. This is just a title of a dishonest corporation…which has more to do with the US Government that God. And so that we are perfectly clear THE SECOND BEAST is what it always has been and will continue to be all they way up to its manifestation as a planet entering into this solar system. At the time that John saw this vision, was the Roman Empire a completely separate issue from the Beast he was witnessing? When the name and title used by this BEAST was THE ROMAN EMPIRE…nothing but the name changed and the degree to which it was able to spread of course…when it morphed into THE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC EMPIRE….under which title it spread to the New World. And NOW AMERICA IS THE NEW ROMAN EMPIRE….they have succeeded in changing by degrees the CHURCH of CHRIST to the CHURCH of JESUS CHRIST of LATTER-DAY SAINTS and then chipping off a few fragments which withered more notably and more quickly…BUT THE BULK of THE NEW BEAST REMAINS and is morphing before our eyes The Church will be further broken up in order that those who are against the Lord may serve as the NEW VEHICLE for the NEW ROMAN EMPIRE to make its transition just like it did during the Great Apostasy….R-O-M-A-N-M-O-R-M-ON Empire. It has nothing to do with YOU or ME…unless we choose to uphold it especially through ignoring or not being vocal against it…It has had nothing to do with the saints from a legal standpoint ever since it was remade into a corporate sole. But legal has nothing to do with our standing before God anyhow…it is just a distraction and a lie anyway. But to use the term LDS CHURCH and say it is “still the Lord’s Church” is the same as those who say “Yeah we may have problems BUT the U.S.A. is still the best damned country in the world”…yeah it is damned for sure….but can we afford to participate in such ignorance? If you insist on using the term LDS Church to mean what you THINK it means and accuse us of being WRONG in applying that term to the second beast…then fine…to appease your egos and in an earnest appeal to you as brothers in Christ and fellow workers in the vineyard, withholding nothing from you, hoping that we will be viewed similarly as connected to you…WE WILL SPECIFY…THE CURRENT MANIFESTATION OF THE SECOND BEAST OF REVELATION THAT MANY OF US ARE NOW SEEING AND ALL ARE BEHOLDING IS THE COMBINATION OF THE US GOVERNMENT WITH THE LDS CHURCH OR WHAT IS LEFT OF IT IN ORDER TO PRESERVE IN FULL HEALTH THE PRIOR INCARNATION OF THE BEAST THAT WAS WOUNDED BY THE RESTORATION MOVEMENT AND FAITH AND TESTIMONY OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN IT.

    There is that better?

    But whereas neither DyC nor I disagree with your explanation and vigilant reminders of those levels of the fulfillment of prophesies. And whereas we agree with your claim that we must not divide up prophecy into individually separate frames. It would seem that you are attempting to do just that, pick and choose. Because look my friends, THE CHURCH OF CHRIST IS THE CHURCH OF CHRIST and always will be. D&C 10

    54 Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church;

    55 Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

    56 But it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments but build up churches unto themselves [RLDS/CoC, Strangites, Church of Christ, FLDS, LDS] to get gain (10%), yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devil—yea, verily, verily, I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble and shake to the center.

    57 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I came unto mine own, and mine own receivED me not.

    So you know, this is the same as what we have clarified in our minds in regards to His Gospel. But it is also true for His Church….His Church are those who follow His Gospel and NOTHING MORE OR LESS….otherwise its evil. This is where our minds need to continue in their purification process and go further in humility than they ever have before.

    64 Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
    65 For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
    66 Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
    67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is MY church.
    68 Whosoever declareth more(mon) or less than this, the same is NOT of me, but is AGAINST me; therefore he is NOT of MY church.

    If we can not truthfully say that simply because Joseph was a true prophet that Monson is too. And we can truthfully say that the LDS Church is a corporation sole making it the Church of Thomas S. Monson at this moment. Then how can we say that this is the Lord’s Church?

    The “Articles of the Church of Christ” was an 1829 revelation purportedly given by God to Oliver Cowdery in the early history of the Latter Day Saint movement. The original Articles were never included in the Mormon canon; however, the language of much of the Articles found its way into various sections of the Book of Commandments and the Doctrine and Covenants, such as D&C 20. The Article begins, “A commandment from God unto Oliver how he should build up his church & the manner thereof—” If God always spoke to Joseph in first person then who or what is this that is speaking to Oliver and when it says how he should build up his church….the HIS is not capitalized as was the standard so the church is obviously not the LORD’S but the Church of Oliver Cowdery. This is where the LDS Church came from. So let’s stop defending Oliver’s Church and focus on Christ’s Church as defined by Jesus Himself. And if we are even half-ass in our approaching Zion then I feel we must stop hedging up the way for ourselves and others. We had better get used to the idea that all are God’s Chosen People who choose Him. GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS….LESS OF LEGAL PERSONS/FICTIONS.

  24. noblenarcissist,

    That is exactly right, the LDS Church is not immune to this but neither is it alone in this. It is the false Christ-Shun churches, all of them that are the Whore…who are joining in this unholy union of Church and State. It is just a Mormonish wedding dress that they are putting on this false bride.

  25. EC,

    Although it appears that you were chiefly responding to what Justin wrote, you actually ended up paraphrasing what I wrote. Justin wrote, “The LDS church is the church of Christ” and I wrote, “this is still the Lord’s church.” You wrote,

    So why, how can we say that the LDS Church is still the Lord’s Church?…

    But to use the term LDS CHURCH and say it is “still the Lord’s Church”…

    In all my writings I have almost exclusively addressed only one church: the LDS church. This is a church made up of baptized people who have entered into a covenant with the Lord. In some of my writings I have talked about another church, the LDS Church. I have been explicit that in my writings, when I use church (little ‘c’) I am speaking of these baptized people and when I use Church (big ‘C’) I am speaking of a corporate entity. You seem to have conflated my statement, “this is still the Lord’s church” into “this is still the Lord’s Church.”

    I realize that I do not give this disclaimer in each and every post and comment I have ever written, so that all who read my writings are given a heads up of what I mean by “church” and what I mean by “Church.” But I have given such a disclaimer somewhere on this blog in the past. It may be that you have not, as yet, read that post or those posts that carry it.

    That being the case, let me again state for the record that my saying, “this is still the Lord’s church” is talking of these people I spoke of above, not any corporate entity. This (little ‘c’) church still possesses both sets of keys, the keys of the church and the keys of the priesthood. Until such time as they cut themselves off and lose those sets, their keys, which come from the Lord, remain valid and binding.

  26. There has been a lot of attention about the corporate Church since I’ve been surfing blogs (five years now), and more especially since City Creek Mall was announced, built and opened. Although it is true that none of us, except one, is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints corporation, every latter-day saint was confirmed a member of “the church of jesus christ of latter day saints.” So, there really are two church/Church-es.

    On the one hand, we know how to spell the name of the corporate Church, including where the capitalization and the dash goes. On the other hand, the name of the other church is never spelled, only spoken as hands are laid on a person’s head and they are confirmed a member of said church and commanded to receive the Holy Ghost. This latter church may, or may not, contain a dash and capitalization.

    The fact of the matter is that whenever the word church is used by the Lord, is it always in reference to a group of people, not to a non-existent, non-living, non-corporeal, legal corporate entity.

    There is nothing wrong with or broken about the LDS Church. It operates according the inherent nature of all corporations, as a blood-sucking leech and a virus, a psychopathic predator whose tendency is to devour all in its path and sustain its own existence come hell or highwater, let all in its path be damned and die. However, the LDS Church also does engage in charitable enterprises and this is because members of the LDS church are in its employ and temper its natural tendencies somewhat. If those LDS church members ever become utterly corrupt, then the LDS Church will function much as all other corporations do. Nevertheless, as far as corporations go, the LDS Church, being in the black, is currently a fairly decent example of a “good” corporation, meaning a corporation that is bringing in the dough.

    Yes, the LDS Church will be broken up. But who cares? So will many other corporations. Corporations come and go. Such is the nature of the business cycle. Heck, even the nations of the earth will be consumed and broken up into their separate tribal affiliations. No, of real concern is not the break up of the LDS Church, but the break-up of the LDS church, into separate, wicked churches.

    And that must be where the focus is, on the LDS church, on the people. We cannot call the LDS church out of the LDS Church, for they were never a part of her to begin with. If a call must and will be made, it will be to repent.

    Yes, there are corrupting influences in the church. Yes, there are false traditions and teachings, but there are also a set of nearly pristine scriptures with undiluted doctrines of God preserved for all to read and live in their fulness, should one feel so inclined. Yes, there is an emasculated priesthood whose hard hearts and blind minds have kept the powers of heaven from them. But if those same priesthood should read that set of pristine scriptures and repent, they would be endowed with righteousness and power from heaven and would pose the greatest danger to the kingdom of the devil possible.

    For these reasons, no devilish strategist would desire that anyone enter into fellowship with such a group of people unless there was absolutely no way for them to use those scriptures and priesthood, repent and gain access to the powers of heaven. So, the strategy must be two-fold. Discourage any and all from joining “the church of jesus christ of latter day saints,” but if they do end up joining anyway, seek to corrupt them with false doctrines and teachings.

    When the church enters its third and final stage, then and only then will it become popular in the eyes of the world and the world will flock to it to partake of its wickedness. But until that day dawns upon us, it would be sheer stupidity for the devil to desire that people be baptized, confirmed, given scriptures and priesthood, as well as temple covenants. That would be like saying, “Hey, here is a shotgun pointed right at my head. Take it and hold it in your hands. I’m not worried, because it’s empty, even though there are shells on the table next to you.” Until the membership is doing the works of the devil and possess no keys, nor possibility of priesthood power; until they have a set of corrupted scriptures in their hands, the devil will not desire that anyone join a group of people who have the means and whose very purpose or reason for existing is to destroy him and his kingdom. That would be foolhardy suicide. The devil is more cunning than that.

    No, because the shotgun is still in place (although currently empty), and because the shells are still on the table (although no one has grabbed them to use them), the devil aims to destroy the LDS church. To enslave them and then to kill every last one of them, that no one remains alive that may challenge his reign. Divide, conquer and kill is the name of his game.

    So, calling people out of the church is the wrong or unwise strategy at this point in time. Leaven is what is needed, even agents of change, not retreat.

    If one is kicked out of the church by wicked and conspiring men, that’s a different situation, or if wicked and conspiring men are creating a hostile physical, emotional or spiritual environment, temporary or even long term retreat may be necessary, as the Spirit dictates. But generally, the principle is one of leavening the mass.

    This, of course, will change, as conditions among men change, and the general call to leave will go out, but currently, I do not hear the Spirit saying to the general populace of latter-day saints, “Leave the church!” Instead, I see the Spirit still working with the church, striving to get them to repent and come to Christ, and for all unbelievers to do the same.

    We must do the same. We must first live the gospel ourselves, becoming leaven, and remain in the church (unless the Spirit indicates otherwise.) We must also seek that all others live it, too, so that they also become leaven. We must not call any of our gospel brothers and sisters out of the church of God, but invite them to fully live their religion, repenting and becoming leaven. We must not dissuade men and women from joining with the church of God, but must invite them to fully live the religion, so that when they join, they, too, become leaven.

    We must assert our rights as confirmed members of “the church of jesus christ of latter day saints” and turn the tide in the Lord’s favor, that wicked and corrupt influences are exposed and fought against in the open, right smack in the middle of church, where listening people can be influenced, so that they can make an informed decision as to who they will follow, the Lord or “the Brethren.” The solidity of the priesthood authority structure is really just an illusion, a house of cards that will quickly buckle if people just stayed put in the church and fully lived their religion, asserting and according to their rights, privileges and agency.

    I believe that it was President Benson that said something about coming clashes and bashes or conflicts or something, that the lines will be drawn and divisions will occur and there will be clashes between the two sides, louder and more violent and more fervent. Or something to that effect. Such lines must and will be drawn in the church of God first, among the righteous who are found therein, and the wicked. These necessary clashes cannot happen if all the righteous dissenters leave.

  27. Justin what is your basis for saying this:

    The Lord has yet to abandon His church and has yet to cease calling them His people…

    I what communication since say 1970 has the Lord said anything to the effect that – the people of the LDS church are My people? And if He did say it through whom did He say it?
    If there be a church which no longer has men who actually speak in the name of the Lord, not just say it is the Lord speaking, but men who have the signs of the believers in their lives then we have the situation as described by Moroni 10: 24-25

    24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.
    25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.

    Do you see the gifts in organization which you call the Church of Christ? Not in the lives of some of the members.But in the leaders and say even in a significant number of its members?
    Then how can it be Christ’s church. When it enforces the will of a Satanic government upon its followers how can you say it is the Lord’s church and He sustains it as such?
    You can answer but I am telling you I do not think the Lord is directing nor calling the LDS church members His people.

  28. dyc:

    Justin what is your basis for saying this:

    The Lord has yet to abandon His church and has yet to cease calling them His people…

    I what communication since say 1970 has the Lord said anything to the effect that – the people of the LDS church are My people? And if He did say it through whom did He say it?

    DyC — you put the burden-of-proof on the wrong foot.

    Since the Lord has called the LDS church “His people” in the scriptures [and the Spirit told me the same when I was deciding to be baptized] — it is you who must furnish the communication “since say 1970” that says something to the effect that — the people of the LDS church have stopped being My people.

    And

    You can answer but I am telling you I do not think the Lord is directing nor calling the LDS church members His people.

    …well it sounds like your mind is all but made up on the matter — so I don’t know why you bothered asking me in the first place — since you already knew what you’d conclude before you finished typing your question.

  29. EC,

    EXACTLY and visa versa.You should be translating as well. Instead of making an offender for a word or title.

    Since you are accusing us of being wrong, then let us be more clear than ever, more precise in hopes that you do not reject the spirit of God just because the messengers don’t meet your approval.

    If you’re still referring to noblenarcissist — and his/her question about the LDS church and the 2nd beast of Revelation 13 — then I’ll direct your attention to:

    Nice list Justin! I also like to take a holistic approach to prophecy, so I agree, whatever the 1st and 2nd beast are, they must match the picture of revelation completely. Although my comment above is admittedly terse and provides no substantiation, it was meant as such. I made the comment to draw out what other Mormon-minded prophecy-oriented folks like yourselves are interpret these beasts to be.

    [comment]

    Let us not continue to make grilled cheese sandwiches into cases supporting slavery.

  30. Also — I’ll go ahead and second the expositions LDSA made about the church here and here — and say that they approximate my feelings on the subject as well.

  31. LDS Anarchist wrote:
    “We must do the same. We must first live the gospel ourselves, becoming leaven, and remain in the church (unless the Spirit indicates otherwise.) We must also seek that all others live it, too, so that they also become leaven.”

    I agree that the change must first start with the individual, but disagree as to the course you’ve plotted for the righteous to take in regards to an apostate church. I disagree, because I can think of no precedent where any apostate church has ever changed course from the “grassroots”. I’ll provide a few examples.

    Lehi:
    Just a man and his family gathered outside of the main church body centered in Jerusalem under the guidance of revelation. There is no indication that Lehi had any high position of authority. Chances are he was just a lowly elder who learned how to get the spirit of God and follow it. He converted a few other families to his cause and left the city, essentially starting a new church.

    Alma:
    Alma was one of the quorum of twelve in King Noah’s church. When he heard the words of Abinidi he realized that he’s take a wrong turn somewhere and repented. He didn’t try to reform the church of King Noah from within. No, instead he went around finding people of like mind. They started gathering outside the church at the waters of Mormon. Because there was still iniquity in their midst, they were taken into slavery for a period of time, but ultimately they rejoined the righteous church body lead by Mosiah.

    John the Baptist:
    He started baptizing people in the river Jordan. No doubt the orthodox church was doing baptisms in their fancy new temple. Why was John baptizing outside the temple? Maybe he was just doing re-baptisms and the temple was too crowded, but that’s highly unlikely since from the sounds of it he wasn’t very popular with the established leadership under Caiaphas. Most likely he was starting a new church outside the main body. Did Jesus go to the temple to get baptized? Nope, he found John in the wilderness.

    Those are three consistent examples of how righteous members should react to apostasy in the church once it’s taken over the Quorum of Twelve. The example of Alma is instructive in that he didn’t stay separate from the body of Mosiah. The house of God is a house of order. If there is a presiding Priesthood head that you are able to fall under, you should do so. Alma could have continued to lead his church, but he chose to rejoin the main body of the church lead by King Mosiah.

  32. It is not a requisite condition to be either a member of an organization or a disciple of some master for someone receive the Holy Ghost, at least initially. Our Lady of all Nations has commanded to me to pray: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father, send now Your Spirit over the Earth. ‘Your Spirit’ means not to send it to vegetables but to people. Spiritual Organizations are supposed to exist for co-operating to this revival, otherwise they are anti-christ and bullshit of the world.

  33. Justin that is kind of an answer you made. The Lord spoke to you and said the LDS are still His people. And that is probably the most meaningful answer that can be given. I am asking you to revisit that word of the Lord. Check and see if that is still His will for you. You know full well that some day it will not be.
    As far as the burden of proof being on me I agree. That is why I wrote the OP (outstanding precept) above. To my mind it says, “Extra Extra read all about it. Logic shows the LDS church is not doing God’s will! And following it is not helpful to your salvation!”
    I wrote it quickly in a simple straight forward manner centering on the example of the guy in the video. But when you add in the Moroni quote I believe it makes the case even stronger.

    The big “C” little “c” church explanation is not useful in my mind. Yes no one can rationally place their faith in salvation upon the corporate entity of the CofJCofLDS trade mark corporation sole. But saying the “church” as defined by Jesus Christ in D&C 10 is still His people has no more relationship to the group pf people who weekly meet in the buildings and facilities owned or operated by the TM CJCLDS corporation than it has to the people who meet in the buildings owned or operated by the Holy Roman Catholic church or any other religious denomination. You might believe that the percentage of true followers of Christ is higher in the LDS group than in any other group. At this point I would not put my money on that horse. There are some churches who truly preach against the evils of obeying the governments, but LDS is not one of them.
    And I should add here that someone in these comments added the phrase “baptized” as being part of the indicator of the true members of Christ’s small “c” church. I don’t see that anywhere. Jesus said: D&C 10:67 “Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.” the additional thought that being baptized under the authority of the LDS is the only way to fulfill the “come unto me” portion of that scripture is a teaching of the LDS leadership. But Alvin Smith was already in the Celestial Kingdom without having fulfilled that “requirement” so that trumps any further arguments along that line.
    No my point is that because of the now erroneous doctrines and practices of the LDS leadership being a follower of the brethren and attender of their meetings will make you less likely to be a believer in the true points of the doctrine of Christ (3 Ne 21:6)
    .
    Yes Justin my mind is made up. I have voted with my feet. I do not attend nor lend my time and talents to an organization which teaches I should place the commandments of men (the mandates of the governments of men) above the words of God written both in scripture and in my heart. My belief is that by continuing to subject myself to their indoctrination I greatly damage my connection to God my Father. I capitalize the word father out of reverence for the person whom I know is there, is real, who loves me and has never left me alone even when I had to face it seemingly alone I know He is caring for me. I can not distinguish Him from His son but that is as they said it should be (3 Ne 11:27).

    But Justin I did not ask the question for my own sake. I did not write the post for my sake. I asked it for your sake and anyone else who might be benefited to realize that when men who are not prophets are sustained as prophets you can not rely upon them to speak the word of the Lord to say, “God does not agree with what I am teaching.” That is something you have to receive through you own channel of revelation. And listening to the neuro-linguistic programming of those who are not acting under God’s direction will not help you hear that vital communication.

  34. DyC:

    Justin that is kind of an answer you made. The Lord spoke to you and said the LDS are still His people. And that is probably the most meaningful answer that can be given.

    I would disagree with the part I bolded. People can say “the Lord has told them” all manner of things, on both sides of the same issue.

    The reason I put the part about the Spirit’s communication with me in brackets was because the real answer [not the “kind of” answer] to your request for where the Lord, since 1970, has “called the LDS church His people” — is that He has called the LDS church His people in His word already.

    Therefore, once He’s declared the LDS church “His people” and has given them the keys of the priesthood and the keys of the church — the burden’s not on me to find a post-1970 reference.

    I am asking you to revisit that word of the Lord. Check and see if that is still His will for you. You know full well that some day it will not be.

    This part is where what I said about the Spirit speaking to me fits better [I think].

    Just like I said above — since the reason I joined the LDS church was because the Spirit told me that it was the “true church of Christ” — until the time comes that She tells me otherwise, I have to consider the last word She gave me my marching orders.

    No matter how much I might level my own criticisms about what goes on at church [and how much I might agree with the ones that you, or others, write about] — everything must be taken in the context [or bounds] that She has set before me by having told me: “This is the very church of Christ“.

    She would have to expressly tell me that She is resending Her previous revelation and substituting new marching orders — before I’d be willing to stop saying:

    The LDS church is true, despite *such-and-such*
    or
    The church of Christ could stand to improve on *such-and-such*

    and begin saying:

    The LDS church is false, because of *such-and-such*
    or
    It’s now become the church of the devil because of *such-and-such*

    meaning, the burden of proof rests on the one seeking to change the status quo — which [whether we’re talking about canonized revelation in the scriptures, or personal revelation from the Spirit to me] is that the LDS church is the church of God.

    Even if you can show me by “logic” and “OPs”, or can point to certain condemnable works by this-or-that member or leader(s). Until the Lord says He’s changed His mind — I’m not inclined to change mine.

  35. noblenarcissist,

    During Lehi’s time in Jerusalem, the prophets were preaching to the people that they must repent or Jerusalem must be destroyed. They did not preach the message: “Repent and remove yourselves from the church at Jerusalem!”

    Lehi also received the message from the Lord that Jerusalem should be destroyed and he went about preaching repentance to the people. It was only when they sought to take away his life that Lehi was commanded by the Lord to flee.

    Abinadi preached repent or be destroyed, but did not preach a message of “repent and remove yourselves from the church at Lehi-Nephi and Shilom.” He got one convert, Alma, who then, while in still in the church, tried defending what Abinadi has said. He was then kicked out and they sent servants to kill him. He fled and began preaching in private, so as not to be killed. He was forced to establish his own church, secretly and in private, because of the death penalty on any who accepted this message. Had it not been for this death penalty, Alma would have preached to the people of the Lord to repent and remain in the church.

    We don’t know the full story concerning John, but likely it was the same. If they kick you out of the church, or seek your life, that is a different set of circumstances requiring a different course of action. But if you are still in the church, you are to act as leaven to the church, so that the church repents and is not destroyed because of their iniquities.

    The churches of God in each of these cases was in the third stage, far, far worse than the state the LDS church is currently in. Yet, even so, the prophets that were sent did not say to the people, “Flee from the church,” but “Repent of your iniquities!”

    I agree that the change must first start with the individual, but disagree as to the course you’ve plotted for the righteous to take in regards to an apostate church. I disagree, because I can think of no precedent where any apostate church has ever changed course from the “grassroots”.

    The church of God has been apostate nearly since its inception. Until Zion is established, the church of God will always be, in some measure, in apostasy, so the cry that the church is apostate is not sufficient reason to tell people to leave her. Only when the church is cut off, meaning that they cut themselves from the Lord, or if she cuts us off, so that we can no longer work within her, (such as how Lehi and Alma were cut off,) do we leave her to her fate of destruction.

    Now, concerning apostate churches changing, we have Melchizedek, who preached repentance to his third stage church and they all repented. We also have Alma, preaching repentance to the Zoramites, many of whom repented of their sins. They did not separate from the wicked majority and leave their city, but were thrown out of the land, necessitating separation, again showing that Satan does not want the public leavened by the righteous. Had those penitent Zoramites remained in that Zoramite city, it would have been like a thousand Almas living among them. Surely a thousand Almas can do more damage to the kingdom of the devil than just one, right?

    The Lord has been gathering the people, or the fish, into his gospel nets. There are all kinds of fish in those nets and there will continue to be all kinds for some time. Until recently, it looked like the Lord was using only church nets, but now it appears another gospel net has appeared on the scene, a tribal net. Both nets are valid, neither one invalidates the other. What can be said about a church can be said about a tribe. Until a tribe of Christ has established Zion among themselves, that tribe will be in various states of apostasy, just like any church of Christ. Likewise, this is not reason to discard a tribe.

  36. dyc4557 wrote:

    And I should add here that someone in these comments added the phrase “baptized” as being part of the indicator of the true members of Christ’s small “c” church. I don’t see that anywhere. Jesus said:

    D&C 10:67 “Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.”

    the additional thought that being baptized under the authority of the LDS is the only way to fulfill the “come unto me” portion of that scripture is a teaching of the LDS leadership. But Alvin Smith was already in the Celestial Kingdom without having fulfilled that “requirement” so that trumps any further arguments along that line.

    Okay, let’s talk about Alvin for a moment. Here’s D&C 137:

    The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.

    I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

    I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

    I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept; and marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

    Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying:

    All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

    And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

    First of all, this was a vision of the future. Joseph saw his father in this vision, yet his father was right there with him in the room while Joseph was having this vision. Secondly, the Lord qualified His words when He said, “all who would have received this gospel.” And what is this gospel? And what are the first principles and ordinances of this gospel? Can you receive this gospel without receiving the first principles and ordinances of it?

    So, without answering those questions for you, Alvin had to be baptized, vicariously, and had to have accepted or approved of that vicarious baptism, for him to be able to receive this gospel with all his heart.

    Now, concerning baptism being a requirement for being part the church of Christ, the scriptures are clear on this point. This has nothing to do with what the Brethren or church leadership or missionaries teach, but everything to do with what the word of God states.

    There is the mystical, unknown by any except by God only, hidden church of Christ, which is all those who repent and come to Christ, but if a person repents and comes to Christ–and the Lord alone, who alone looks upon the heart, can see this church–again, if such a person does not follow through and become baptized, they will break the commandment, lose the Spirit, and cease to be the Lord’s mystical church. All such unbaptized church of Christ only remain His church insofar as they have no means to witness the covenant they have made with God by baptism. The covenant made by the mystical church of God with God must be signed by both parties. Baptism is how we “sign” on the dotted line, and confirmation and the reception of the Spirit is how God “signs,” making the covenant binding and of full force.

    Thus, although the unbaptized mystical church is, indeed, the church of God, their covenant has not been made binding or of full force until these signatures are assigned. God’s order cannot be superseded in this, despite what we may desire. In other words, the unbaptized church is not perfect or fully organized, or their “spiritual papers” are still not in order. But God makes allowances for these people until such time as they can get their “papers” in order.

    Thus, we find Ammon declining to baptize the people of king Limhi, considering himself unworthy, and we read that this people had already entered into a covenant with God (they were already this mystical church), but the records categorically states, “therefore, they did not at that time form themselves into a church.” (See Mosiah 21:32-35.) Baptism was a definite requirement of organized church formation for the ancient (and modern) saints.

    The Nephite scriptures in particular show that the organized church of God required baptism. It’s written all over the place. For example, Mormon wrote that after their baptism the converts of Alma were called the church of God or the church of Christ and they received baptized people into their church. Another example: the first thing Jesus does when He appears to the Nephites is command them to baptize everyone who repents. I will not review all the scriptures, for there are too many.

    The point is this, the mystical church of Christ consists of both baptized and unbaptized people, but the organized church of Christ consist of only baptized people, for their covenant has been signed on the dotted line, at least by baptism. Whether they have received the Spirit (the second signature) is another story, thus within the organized church of Christ is also found the mystical church of Christ, who have “come unto Christ.” Who they are, no one knows, but God.

    Insofar as the LDS church is concerned, it still is the organized church of Christ. Its baptisms are still valid in the eyes of God, and also its priesthood. Because of this, telling any of the unbaptized, mystical church of God to not enter the organized church of Christ is not right in the sight of God, for they need to perfect the covenant they have made with God, just as the people of Limhi needed to be baptized. We are to call all into the fold, but are not to encourage any of these converts to partake of the wickedness or false traditions and doctrines taught by many of the fishes already found in the net.

    Again, I can see circumstances in which the Spirit tells you, individually, to depart, but I get no indication that we are yet at a point that everyone must abandon this ship. (Yeah, yeah, I know about that talk about the church being a ship…)

    One last thing, I know what you are talking about concerning the “come unto Christ” = “baptism and confirmation” nonsense preached in this church by all missionaries and their leaders, but despite that teaching, it does not discount the importance and necessity of both baptism and confirmation.

  37. How is what I wrote…
    referring to noblenarcissist — and his/her question about the LDS church and the 2nd beast of Revelation 13 —

    ???

    then you’ll direct my attention to his comments? I am not seeking for converts here. I am not starting any church unto myself. But you enjoy yourself.

    The Lord is not going to make an announcement. Who would He make it through? Who would listen? The spirit does not need to resend anything she has previously said. Remember all things are present before the Lord — the purity and the corruption. We are opperating in time but it is not from here that they speak through our hearts and to our minds.

  38. LDSA,

    So, there really are two church/Church-es.

    There most certainly are. Only two. And anyone who thinks that a person MUST be baptized into a church (lowercase c or uppercase as the case may be) or even call Christ Jesus or ever use the word Christ in their lifetime or the next….is simply stuck in a prideful mindset. Not even our own “nearly pristine” scriptures put baptism as a must for all people. Baptism is Bathtism…if your dirty go take a bath. Do we all get dirty from time to time. Sure. But valid and effective spiritual bathing is by no means restricted to Christianity.

    However, the LDS Church also does engage in charitable enterprises and this is because members of the LDS church are in its employ and temper its natural tendencies somewhat. If those LDS church members ever become utterly corrupt, then the LDS Church will function much as all other corporations do.

    Those LDS (c)hurch members who stay with the LDS Church will become utterly corrupt. Utterly weak in spiritual power to do good. Having their spiritual power always sucked into works of evil. And one generation will sleep and then the next will get worse and then they will sleep and their children will be even more corrupt. Just as scripture tells us.

    nearly pristine scriptures

    do not convey very well

    undiluted doctrines

    Words on paper can only do so much. If people do not know how to read the Book of Life then the Pearl of Great Price is nothing but a fancy collection of writings and the BoM is to them literally a time BoMb about to blow up in their faces.

    No, of real concern is not the break up of the LDS Church, but the break-up of the LDS church, into separate, wicked churches.
    And that must be where the focus is, on the LDS church, on the people. We cannot call the LDS church out of the LDS Church, for they were never a part of her to begin with. If a call must and will be made, it will be to repent.

    No, the break up of the LDS Corporation is not of major concern….who cares right? As you said…corporations always will go the way of the World since they are of this world and they have joy in their works for a season then burn. BUT you see…who is it that is having joy in their works right now? Little old ladies, young men serving missions and Moms and Dad’s in their suday best going to General Conference. The Church holds the church captive…as long as the PEOPLE fail to see that the LDS Church is already wicked…not yet to become wicked after further break up beyond what it has already experienced. So yeah it is of concern because it is PEOPLE who think and children who sing “I BELONG TO THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS” If you do not invite those PEOPLE to come out from her (The Church) to take the first step toward taking the Church out of their hearts and minds so they are free to replace it with Christ 100% then you really don’t care too much for the PEOPLE, LDS or other people of the earth. We know what happens when the Salt loses its savor. Yeah the break up of the Church effects the church of Christ because it converts them to the world. How the hell you gonna make a call to repent without challenging the thing in which our activity makes and keeps us willing to support the kingdom of the devil, unable to see IT for what it is.

    no devilish strategist would desire that anyone enter into fellowship with such a group of people unless there was absolutely no way for them to use those scriptures and priesthood, repent and gain access to the powers of heaven. So, the strategy must be two-fold. Discourage any and all from joining “the church of jesus christ of latter day saints,” but if they do end up joining anyway, seek to corrupt them with false doctrines and teachings.

    So these devilish strategists will always stick to these two strategies eh? And the whole popularization of and dissemination of mormon culture into and with mainstream culture is not a part of that very corrupting of the doctrines and teachings….and theyre not at this time transitioning from “kill Christians” to “The Emperor is Christian” to “Everybody who’s anybody in business and politics these days is Christian” Mormon is the same thing…the new Catholic Church. Are you completely blind to the tactics of the Devil? The US Ambassador to China – Mormon, The next US President- Mormon, The author of the best-selling novel and movie series Twilight- Mormon, TV and Hollywood writers mention LDS, Mormon, Utah all the time in the same way that being gay or being a New Yorker has been or is being made acceptable and popular…The new 911 will do the same for their precious hijacked Mormonism. Of course there will be those who never fall for or just still don’t like the Church and its members…but you know that is when they roll out with the food shortages and hyper inflation, The GreatEST American Depression in full effect and the current form of the LDS Church however it exists at that not too distant time stepping in as a false savior with the FOOD STORE-AGE just like alluded to in the POPULAR novel series and hit movie released the day after the opening of the City Creek Center Mall – The HUNGER GAMES. This is no joke….and you talk to me of the PEOPLE?!

    the devil will not desire that anyone join a group of people who have the means and whose very purpose or reason for existing is to destroy him and his kingdom. That would be foolhardy suicide. The devil is more cunning than that.

    Oh and what of the Baseball Baptisms? The “If you build it they will come?” policy since the 60s and the mad drive for numbers that thousands of return missionaries coming back from South America and other parts of the world were caught up in? Priesthood is inside of us ALL otherwise anarchy would be the devil’s ultimate goal. I understand where your going with your shotgun and ammo analogy…but unfortunately this is what churches do…they make us think always in terms of external tools which function for us in the beginning and before we know it (ere we are aware) they seem to work against us….This is why the Devil is unafraid at this point of placing the WEAPONS on the table in front of people because he has raised up and unrighteous seed unto himself. He was never afraid of or actually threatened by scriptures or titles but only the way that we …the infinite intelligence in and through us employed those tools.

    You admit:

    the shotgun is still in place (although currently empty), and because the shells are still on the table (although no one has grabbed them to use them), the devil aims to destroy the LDS church. To enslave them and then to kill every last one of them, that no one remains alive that may challenge his reign. Divide, conquer and kill is the name of his game.

    Um …yeah! This is why it is said that the beast was dealt a mortal wound from which he has to recover and does and the whole world marvels at it. But the devil has been in recovery mode since well before you or I ever joined the LDS Church and even before we were born. So don’t be silly, don’t be prideful. Be BRAVE. Experiment on the word…meaning take action and go on a Church fast in faith with purpose…see if my words are not true…see if I do not speak the words of Christ.

    I believe that it was President Benson that said something about coming clashes and bashes or conflicts or something, that the lines will be drawn and divisions will occur and there will be clashes between the two sides, louder and more violent and more fervent. Or something to that effect. Such lines must and will be drawn in the church of God first, among the righteous who are found therein, and the wicked. These necessary clashes cannot happen if all the righteous dissenters leave.

    I don’t think it wise to make such spiritual life or death situation based on an extremely biased Church President’s words. For sure those things will and are happening. And guess what…clashes and bashes will and do happen even if you and I leave the Church. Trust me man. It seems to me that leaving is in fact putting all of that “needed” division into effect with the widest dividing line possible. I feel it much wiser to make such life decisions based on the words of the Lord who says that “Every man who will not take up the sword against his brother will need to flee to Zion”. But the big surprise is that you decide what the Spirit says to you by deciding what you will hear. And everyone is absolutely free to choose the role they will play in the Plan. As difficult as it may be for you to see that…I never have told anyone who was determined to join the Church or stay in the Church to do anything other than what is in their heart. The corralling of people who seek the false security is part of the Plan too.

    Tears water my pillow by night for all the Roman Gladiators who haunt my dreams and find themselves chopped in half at the waist…what a waste. Get well soon.

  39. Elder Chantdown I can’t say that I always agree with you, but what you just said excites me. It’s rare to see someone that’s “mad as hell” about all those sleeping around them, while an invading army approaches. The devil is very subtle and few will ever wake up before he is upon them. And even then there will be those who are under such heavy denial that they say, “Oh no, this just can’t be the devil! He speaks such sweet things” while he slits the throats of their families. This is exactly what happened in Germany. The people just couldn’t believe the atrocious reports they were hearing so they went into a heavy case of denial. That kind of denial only lasts until you’re up in front of the firing squad, smelling the blood scent of those who just fell into the pit.

    I think many of you need to take a closer look at prophecies and see that we have sleeping dogs at the helm of what used to be the Church of God. Shepherds feeding themselves on the flock, etc. We may very well be entering into the third and last world war before the Millennium and what do these blind shepherds tell us? Weak platitudes and warm stories. Seriously?! Is that the kind of talk you give to a people on the verge of the Apocalypse? Please, wake up people. The hour is short. Destruction is at your very door.

  40. Re: the “there are only two churches” scripture…

    My understanding of the prophecies is that at any given moment there are only two mystical churches: the mystical church of God and the mystical church of the devil. If you don’t pertain to one, you pertain to the other, and vice versa. However, while these two mystical churches exist, there are also multiple, organized churches found among men.

    At some point, this multitude of churches will be consolidated into two organized bodies: the great and abominable church of the devil and the church of the Lamb of God, the one corresponding to the mystical church of the devil, and the other corresponding to the mystical church of God.

    In Nephi’s visions of the future, he mentioned that he saw many churches. He also mentioned in that one scripture that there are save it be only two churches. Now, most people take the one vision, which speaks of multiple churches, as literal or physical, meaning that these are organized churches among man, and then when they come to the scripture speaking of only two churches, they assign a figurative or symbolic meaning to those verses. Nevertheless, both scriptures are speaking of literal, organized churches. These prophecies are just speaking of different times of fulfillment.

    During the one vision, there are multiple churches, during the later vision, these multiple churches consolidate, or are gathered together into two, organized groups, meaning two churches. This is not a symbolic gathering, but a literal one.

    I once wrote that the blueprint of the devil is hell, which is a prison, so he aims to make this a prison planet, patterned after and exactly conforming to the conditions found in hell. In the same blueprint, there is a single religion called for: the church of the devil, thus the devil will seek to consolidate all the various churches into a single one, which worships Lucifer.

    Likewise, on the other hand, there are many organized churches that profess Christ. But in the day of the fulfillment of this prophecy these churches will have been dissolved or absorbed into the church of the devil, or will have joined the only other church that exists on the planet, called the church of the Lamb of God. And thus the sides will have been clearly drawn in black and white, with no grey areas as currently exists.

    So, even though at this time there are only two mystical churches, and the members of these two mystical churches can be found among many of the organized churches throughout the land, God and the devil are working to re-organize the affairs of men so that only two organized churches exist, that of the Lamb of God and that of the devil. And when that happens, this scripture will be fully fulfilled, for these things are things that are going to happen according to the flesh.

    The organization of the church of God among men is doctrinal, that the physically organized church of God corresponds to the spiritually or mystically organized church of God. This is why the church of Christ was “regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God” on the 6th day of April, 1830, in Manchester, Ontario County, New York. Once the physical manifestation of the mystical church of God is organized and established according to the will and commandments of God, it becomes important to pertain to it.

    I’ll address one more point and then come back and address your other points, as well, if I have time.

    Regarding your statement: “anyone who thinks that a person MUST … call Christ Jesus or ever use the word Christ in their lifetime or the next….is simply stuck in a prideful mindset.”

    The angel taught Benjamin that salvation comes only in and through the name of Christ. Benjamin then taught his people that there was no other name given whereby salvation comes and that it was necessary for all men to take this name upon them, in order that they be called by this name at the last day. Those who did not take this name upon them would be called by some other name and be found at the left hand. It is also written that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. There are also many other scriptures which state the same thing, so I’m not sure where you are going with this thought that no one must “use the word Christ in their lifetime or the next.”

    This has nothing to do with pride, but everything to do with truth. The word of God is explicit that if you want to be saved, you must go through Christ, taking His name upon you, etc. He is the gatekeeper and there is no way around Him. If you do not do it in this life, you must do it in the next. And if you do not do it in the next, you will be ushered through the wide gate.

    Also, baptism without authority is, as you call it, merely taking a bath. It is a dead work (D&C 22) and not a sign or a witness to God or the angels in heaven that you have entered into a covenant with God. Unless it is done with valid priesthood, both sets of keys authorizing it, it has no power to organize the mystical church or mystical tribe of Christ into physically organized churches and tribes of Christ.

    Anyone in any church or religion can baptize a person and claim priesthood authority all they want, but the fact remains that the priesthood has been given to a subset of the Gentiles and it has yet to be taken away from them and given to another people. Until that happens, all other baptisms are the dead works of bathtisms, useful for getting one squeaky clean on the outside, but useless in signing on the dotted line of their covenant, for the Lord recognizes no such bathtisms as valid signature “signs,” authorized by Him.

  41. Chantdown,

    How is what I wrote…
    referring to noblenarcissist — and his/her question about the LDS church and the 2nd beast of Revelation 13 —
    ???
    then you’ll direct my attention to his comments? I am not seeking for converts here. I am not starting any church unto myself. But you enjoy yourself.
    The Lord is not going to make an announcement. Who would He make it through? Who would listen? The spirit does not need to resend anything she has previously said. Remember all things are present before the Lord — the purity and the corruption. We are opperating in time but it is not from here that they speak through our hearts and to our minds.

    You wrote:

    Since you are accusing us of being wrong, then let us be more clear than ever, more precise in hopes that you do not reject the spirit of God just because the messengers don’t meet your approval.

    That’s a bit extreme given that I made no accusations — and I rejected no messengers.

    Noblenarcissist stated that (s)he was not delivering a message — so there is no one I could have either given or withheld my approval to/from [nor could I have been accusing anyone of being anything].

    I quoted noblenarcissist’s comment:

    Nice list Justin! I also like to take a holistic approach to prophecy, so I agree, whatever the 1st and 2nd beast are, they must match the picture of revelation completely. Although my comment above is admittedly terse and provides no substantiation, it was meant as such. I made the comment to draw out what other Mormon-minded prophecy-oriented folks like yourselves are interpret these beasts to be.

    so as to make it clear that your re-action to what I posted as my opinion concerning the vision which John saw was not eeee-aaaaway out of leftbrainfield — given the reasons noblenarcissist gave for posting the first comment here on this thread.

  42. I’ll just expound a little more on this, since it’s still in my mind.

    Although all of us who chose Christ in the pre-mortal existence were part of the church of Christ in the heavens, this is still a mystical church. All things mystical must be organized here upon the earth, in the flesh, in the manner authorized by the Lord, in order for validity to exist. No one of us can just take the mystical and make it flesh of our own accord and have it be valid before the Lord. All things must be done as He has directed, according to His words in D&C 132. If it ain’t done by His word and law, it ain’t valid, despite all claims to pre-mortal foreordination. This equally applies to the priesthood. Although we have been pre-ordained or fore-ordained, no one can take the earthly priesthood upon himself by virtue of that pre-mortal ordination. The mortal ordination is a confirmation of the heavenly ordination, and just as the heavenly was patterned after, and by the command of, and law of, and word of, the Lord, given there in the heavens, so the confirmations that occur here on earth must conform to what He has given us here and now, in His written or verbal instructions, for validity to be retained.

    The reason for this is that all that was done in the heavens is under one authority, while all that is done here on earth is under a separate authority. To give an earthly example, just as baptism is a preparatory ordinance, which is confirmed by the ordinance of confirmation, so what happened in the heavens was preparatory, to be confirmed by ordinances here on earth. Also, just as baptism is done under the authority of the Aaronic priesthood, and then confirmation is done under the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood, so also ordinances performed in heaven which fore-ordain us are not sufficient authority to confirm us here on earth. A high priest after the order of Aaron can baptize lots of people, but cannot bestow the Holy Ghost upon anyone. He simply isn’t authorized to do so.

    There is an order to all that God does and unless we recognize and submit to that order, His word and His law, will will end up at the ends of the law.

  43. Thanks everybody for your comments.

    The greatest gift God has given any of us is freedom. Only by full use of that gift of freedom can we obtain the greatest of God’s gifts even the gift of Eternal Life. People who attend the LDS church do not retain the freedom which God gave them.

    Its graduation day.

  44. DYC

    The greatest gift God has given any of us is freedom. Only by full use of that gift of freedom can we obtain the greatest of God’s gifts even the gift of Eternal Life.

    When I started reading this comment — I thought we were arriving at a point where we were going to conclude on some mutually-agreed upon ground:

    * Like — we all have the freedom to choose, and people should do the most good wherever they feel called to be at. Or something of that kind.

    And then I got to:

    People who attend the LDS church do not retain the freedom which God gave them.

    And realized that that would not actually be the case.

    I must say — to my ears, declaring that a person must leave the LDS church in order to “retain the freedom which God gave them” pursuant to them obtaining “the greatest of God’s gifts, even the gift of Eternal Life” sounds just as bad as telling them that they must join the LDS church in order to have such freedoms and gifts.

    Your position doesn’t sound much different to me than the position of a mainstream [you might use the term “Kool-Aid”] member — just on the other extreme end.

  45. Regarding incorporated entities…

    If you feel that the LDS Church corporation is a wicked tool of the devil that must be destroyed, the way to destroy it, if you feel so inclined, is to bleed it dry of funds. Now, how does one do this while still keeping the law of tithing, which feeds the corporation?

    The way you suggest, Elder Chantdown, as well as all those who call for a retreat from both the LDS Church and church, would cause one to break the commandment of God, concerning tithing. This, then, is not an option if you wish to remain right before the Lord.

    On another forum, someone wrote, “The wards do not receive budget from the members. All money that comes in goes upstream to the church. The wards then get a budget allotment from headquarters based on average sacrament meeting attendance the last month of each quarter.”

    Okay, so based on that information, assuming it is still correct, sacrament meeting attendance is how you bring the money back to one’s locality. Removing oneself from church attendance, then, just takes away money that could be used for local, charitable projects, based on the various local committees which have the job of coming up with the question, “What do we do with these funds?”

    But if you attend sacrament meeting, as I do (though I skip out immediately after partaking of the sacrament), that only addresses one part of the problem, the funds coming down the pike, which are almost always less than the funds going up the pike.

    I suggested recently that one way to starve the Church is to anonymously pay in silver coins of very small denominations. This causes the Church to take a HUGE loss in revenue, while still keeping you right before the Lord, since you are keeping the law of tithing.

    Normally, you get high funds going up and low funds going down. So, for example, let’s say an affluent ward sends up $25-50,000 a week in tithes, yet their annual ward budget (which comes from tithes coming down from SLC) might be $7-8,000.

    If you were to convert $50,000 into small denomination silver coins, as I suggested, you’d end up with 12,500 coins. When the LDS Church cashed this silver in, they’d get maybe $4,250 out of it. But they’d still have to send down the pike to that ward $7-8,000 for their annual budget. As long as the sacrament attendance is high, these funds must be sent to them.

    So, by taking a different strategy, you reverse the current upstream/downstream dynamic and start to bleed the corporation dry. Temple attendance by these members will not be affected, either, since they can donate their tithing anonymously and then just write in to the bishop at the end of each year, declaring themselves a full tithe payer.

    These strategies, which strike at the pocket-book of the corporation, which is its most vulnerable spot, are wiser options than simply breaking the Lord’s commandments and our covenants.

  46. Re: President Benson…

    I finally tracked down his saying which came to my mind when I tried to paraphrase it. Here is the saying:

    I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. (See JS—H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph. (See 1 Ne. 22:15–23.)

    This comes from his talk, “I Testify,” given 1988. And here is my paraphrase:

    I believe that it was President Benson that said something about coming clashes and bashes or conflicts or something, that the lines will be drawn and divisions will occur and there will be clashes between the two sides, louder and more violent and more fervent. Or something to that effect.

    So, I wasn’t that far off from what he actually said. I then went a bit further than he did and wrote:

    Such lines must and will be drawn in the church of God first, among the righteous who are found therein, and the wicked. These necessary clashes cannot happen if all the righteous dissenters leave.

    Now, Elder Chantdown, you wrote:

    I don’t think it wise to make such spiritual life or death situation based on an extremely biased Church President’s words.

    Let’s be clear on this point: I don’t base my sayings on what President Benson or anyone else has said. My standard is the scriptures and the revelations that have been given to me of the Holy Ghost. What Benson said is in line with the scriptures, which is why I paraphrased him. And he, essentially, paraphrased what is written there. Regardless of anyone’s opinion of the man, that saying of his will bear out.

  47. On naysayer what have you done? You trample under your feet she which gave you breath and coupled your cry. You toss her out like a bride stricken with infermity when she is but alive still. After all she hath given you. All you have learned at her lips. The very belief in truth and the way to find ceremony. She hath given you sight and with it you curse her facade. She hath given you ears and with them you hear only wailing. She hath given you mouth and with it you moan. Ne’r wouldst though amuse and entice we’re it not for the spirit thou hast seen in her. But deniest thou her heart and fault thou findest in all her members. And for what? To fill thine own belly. And with good words and fair speech deceivest thou the hearts of many. oh naysayer what hast thou done?

  48. Who is in denial, finewindes? To whom are you addressing your words?

  49. LDS Anarchist, they are not my words. They are from the mouth of his apostle. But they are addressed to me, to you, and to anyone offended by them.

  50. finewindes, whose apostle? And who is the apostle whose words these are?

  51. I’m more interested in what the words of [yet to be named]’s apostle, addressing [unidentified] offended person(s) are doing here. Were they meant to address something that was said or someone who was saying it? Did they have some bearing on the remarks that preceded them? Or were they just posted randomly for finewindes to allow any and all to see them — but were otherwise completely unrelated?

    Who’s the “she“? I’d say the LDS church given the context of the conversation here — but it reads like it could also be the Holy Spirit, Mother Earth, God, etc.

    what hast thou done?“, indeed …


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