The Holy Ghost is a Woman


The following is an excerpt taken from the NCCG.ORG web site. It is from the article, Yah’shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) and His Place in the Godhead.  I have lifted it verbatim, trying to keep it in its original font size and color, but have hyperlinked all the scriptures. 

The Personality of the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) 

To understand how the Son was created by the Father we must now turn to the third member of the Godhead, the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit). That the Spirit is a PERSON and not just an INVISIBLE FORCE is proven by many passages, though it is equally true that the ACTIVITY of the Spirit is often present in neutral, sexless terms. 

To lie to the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) is to lie to God [Eloah] (Ac.5:3-4). And the way that the Third Member of the Godhead is linked to both the Father and the Son in 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 would be a blasphemy if the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) were not God [Eloah]. The Ruach (Spirit) shows personality – thus She “understands” (Rom.8:27, Aram.), She “wills” (Ac.13:2; 1 Cor.12:11, Aram.), She may be “grieved” (Eph.4:30, Aram.). Such terms would be meaningless if applied solely to an impersonal power or influence. 

The Feminine Gender of the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) 

According to both classical Trinitarian and Binitarian models, the Third Member of the Godhead is MALE. The problem here is that in the Hebrew OLD TESTAMENT the Spirit is always FEMALE and in the GREEK New Testament either MALE or NEUTER, thus creating a CONTRADICTION. No Person can have three genders! 

But the problem is eliminated when we turn to the original HEBREW and ARAMAIC texts of the New Testament from which the GREEK texts were translated. As one scholar notes: 

    “One problem that presents itself in translating the New Testament from Hebrew and Aramaic into English is that of the gender of the Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit). English is very different from Hebrew and Aramaic. To begin with, English has three genders, masculine, feminine and neuter (i.e. he, she and it). Hebrew and Aramaic have no neuter gender. In Hebrew and Aramaic everything is either a “he” or a “she” and nothing is an “it”. Also gender plays a much more important rôle in Hebrew and in Aramaic than in English. In English gender is usually only an issue when dealing with pronouns. But in Hebrew and Aramaic nouns and verbs are also masculine or feminine. And while there are no true adjectives in Hebrew (nouns are also used as adjectives), noun modifiers must agree in gender with the noun. Now the Hebrew word RUACH (Aramaic RUCHA) is grammatically feminine as is the phrase Ruach haKodesh. This is matched by the rôle of the Ruach haKodesh as “comforter” (Jn.14-16) and the identifier of the “comforter” with YHWH acting as a “mother” (Is.66:13).
    “Now in English the Ruach is often referred to as “he” or “it” as also in the Greek New Testament. However this seems very odd indeed to the Semitic mind.
    “Now it is very clear that the gender of the RUACH has been revised in many passages of the Aramaic to agree with the Hellenistic concept of the Holy Spirit as being either a “he” or an “it”. Thus the pronouns used for the Ruach haKodesh in Jn.14-16 in the Peshitta are all masculine. However, the hand of revision is very clear. For example while both the Peshitta and Old Syriac have “he” in Jn.16:8 the Old Syriac has “she” just a few verses further down in 16:13 while the Peshitta has “he”.
    “And She the Ruach gives testimony …” 
    (James S. Trimm, Hebraic-Roots Version “New Testament”, 2001, SANJ, Hurst, Texas, pp.xxxiii-xxxiv)

The Book of Proverbs and the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) 

Because of this confusion of genders both scholars and scriptorians often mistakenly believe that the “Wisdom” of God in the Book of Proverbs is an allusion to the Second Member of the Godhead, Yah’shua (Jesus). Thus William F. Dankenbring writes:  

    “A clear allusion to this fact of divine unity of plurality is found in the book of Proverbs. Here the second member of the Godhead is revealed, as the “Wisdom” of God. Notice this remarkable Scripture witness!:
     “The LORD possessed me in the BEGINNING of his way, before His works of old. I was set up [established] FROM EVERLASTING, from the BEGINNING, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH [CREATED, BORN]; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I BROUGHT FORTH [CREATED, BORN] … When He prepared the heavens, I WAS THERE … when He appointed the foundations of the earth: THEN I WAS BY HIM, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him; rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men” (Proverbs 8:22-31, KJV).

 The Old Testament “Wisdom” is a Female Personage 

However, as Karen Vaughan points out: 

    Sophia, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Hochmah is the feminine personification of Wisdom in the Pentateuch. She is neither a goddess nor a new age creation of feminist theologians. She was a real biblical person with more material on her in the Old Testament (with Apocrypha) than anyone in the scriptures, except God, Job, Moses and David …
    “One reason we little consider Sophia, even in readings of the Old Testament, is that English translations usually translate the feminine Sophia into the abstract “Wisdom”. Although the Greek and Hebrew words were fully feminine, the English is not. The fullest development of her is in the so-called “Wisdom Books” of the apocrypha in the Greek Pentateuch (sic. – should be Tanakh or Old Testament – ed.) that were canonised into Christian Scripture and are still used by the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Sophia dominates the first nine chapters of Proverbs and is found in both the Old and New Testaments.
    “In the Hebrew tradition, Sophia was considered to have been with God from the beginning of Creation. In Proverbs 8:27-51, Sophia says:
    “When God [Yahweh] set the heavens in place, I was present,
    When God drew a ring on the surface of the deep,
    When God fixed the clouds above,
    When God fixed fast the wells of the deep,
    when God assigned the sea its limits-
    and the waters will not invade the land,
    when God established the foundations of the earth,
    I was by God’s side, a master craftswoman,
    delighting God day after day,
    ever at play by God’s side,
    at play everywhere in God’s domain,
    delighting to be with the children of humanity.”
    Sophia, in the biblical creation was not ‘a god’, but was a divine being. It is not clear that She was uncreated like Jesus [Yah’shua]: the word used to refer to Her creation also means “acquired” by God. Proverbs 8:22 – “God created me [acquired me] (Sophia) when God’s purpose first unfolded.” Ecclesiasticus 1:14 – “before all things, Sophia was created.” She serves at the heart of the creative process, as Wisdom and as Teacher who was sent by God to save humanity. The book of Wisdom speaks to Her divinity (7:25-26):
    She is the breath of God’s power & a stream of pure glory of the Almighty.
    This is why nothing polluted enters Her.
    For She mirrors God’s energy completely, and She images God’s goodness.”
    (Review of the book Sophia in the Biblical Tradition (Harper and Row; 1986) by Susan Cady, Marian Ronan and Hal Taussig)

From this we are able to come to two stunning conclusions: 

  • 1. Hochma/Sophia/Wisdom was CREATED;
  • 2. She is GOD in a subordinate sense.
  • In other words, She was created at some “beginning” JUST AS YAH’SHUA (JESUS) was. In Hebrew tradition, Hochma / Sophia / Wisdom is known also as the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) (Prov.8:22-31) and the HEAVENLY MOTHER — a created being, and was “by God’s [Eloah’s] side. 

    Implications

    If the above is accurate about Hebrew, surely this opens up a new can of worms.  For example, would this not change our view of the nature of the Godhead (Father, Son and Mother)?  Of priesthood?  Of priests and priestesses or prophets and prophetesses (listen to verse 3: not Mrs. Priest and Mrs Prophet but female priests and female prophets)?  Of the gifts of the Spirit?  Of the miraculous birth of Jesus?  Of speaking or working by the power of the Holy Ghost?  Of our worship of the Father (in the name of the Son, by the power of the Mother)???

    Complete List of Articles authored by LDS Anarchist

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    60 Comments

    1. Interesting!

      It definitely does open a can of worms, wow. Hmmm, it makes sense, I wonder what Joseph Smith understood about this and if it had anything to do with why he started ordaining women to the Melchizedek Priesthood.

    2. He started ordaining women to the Melchizedek Priesthood? That’s news to me. Where do I find this information?

    3. I believe Joseph understood that women receive Melchizedek priesthood during the endowment ceremony.

      He said that “all priesthood is Melchizedek; but there are different portions or degrees of it. The priesthood bestowed in the Temple is the same priesthood given by the laying on of hands, but it is a fullness of that authority and embraces all other authorities, appendages, and offices.”

      He stated further, “I gave a lecture on the priesthood, showing how the sisters would come in possession of the privileges and blessings and gifts of the priesthood and that the signs should follow them – such as healing the sick, casting out devils, etc. And that they might attain unto these blessings by a virtuous life and conversation and by diligence in keeping all the commandments.”

      According to Brigham Young, “the man that honors his Priesthood, the woman that honors her Priesthood, will receive an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of God.”

      Think about your post on priesthood:

      The term “Key-words” itself is used to indicate that the priesthood is a language that holds authority in the universe. Joseph explained that “all to whom the Priesthood was revealed” have “the Key-words of the Holy Priesthood” revealed as well, according to Abraham’s facsimile 3. So, if you have had the priesthood revealed to you, then you have also had the Key-words of the priesthood revealed to you because they are one and the same.

      Because a woman is clothed in garment and robes of the priesthood and receives all the tokens and key-words of the priesthood during the Temple ceremony – it is evident that she holds the rights to the priesthood, just not any specific office or rank within it.

      In response to the post:

      I’ve always interpreted the wisdom figure of the Old Testament to be Mother in Heaven.

      Wisdom = Happiness = A Tree of Life = Heavenly Mother

      One was reborn via the oil of anointing in the Temple. This is what John saw in Revelations when he was permitted to look into the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Temple. This is the tree Nephi saw. And this is the feminine portion of Temple worship that was either corrupted by the people of Israel or removed from the Temple by the kings or priests of Israel.

    4. Yeah, that I’m aware of. I was thinking that PallasAthena was speaking of ordinations not connected to the endowment.

    5. Anyone ever hear of the Second Anointing or Washing of Feet? How about Brigham Young’s lecture at the Veil which sparked the Adam God Theory.

      The Holy Ghost as a Women is interesting however incorrect. The fact that the Holy Ghost is an Intelligence which gives him a unique ability to communicate directly to our intelligence which is more powerful than a physical and spiritual communication. It also allows the Holy Ghost to be perfect like the Father and Perfect like the Son in the Godhead and not second for the role of Christ.
      As well when we are baptized by the Father Son and Holy Ghost there is really no Point because CHRIST is the only name that saves. From the King Follett Sermon we know that the Father was the Christ in the last plan of salvation. So the Father’s name can be Christ because he saved those in times past. The Saviour iss our current Christ. The Holy Ghost as an intelligence will be the Christ of the Next Plan of Salvation! And so His name can also be Christ.
      For a complete understanding a proof of this please check out this information as well.

      http://web.me.com/angelpalmoni/AngelPalmoni/View_The_Scrolls/Pages/PALMONI.html#1

      http://web.me.com/angelpalmoni/AngelPalmoni/View_The_Scrolls/Pages/PALMONI.html#3

      http://web.me.com/angelpalmoni/AngelPalmoni/Holy_Ghost.html#0
      http://web.me.com/angelpalmoni/AngelPalmoni/Holy_Ghost.html#1
      http://web.me.com/angelpalmoni/AngelPalmoni/Holy_Ghost.html#2

      Cheers,

      Angelpalmoni

    6. Here are a couple more articles that bring up this topic:

      It’s all Greek to Them, The Holy Spirit: He, She or It?

      The Feminine Gender of the Holy Spirit

      and here is a lengthy excerpt from the article, More Than Just a Controversy: All About the Holy Spirit

      Is There a Question About the Gender of the Holy Spirit?

      In my graduate Semitics program at UCLA, one of the languages I had to study was Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic written with rounded letters reminiscent of modern Arabic. Syriac was the language of people living in northern Mesopotamia, from at least 300 BC until the time Arabic became dominant in the region, around 1000 AD. Most of the Syriac documents available today were produced by a Monophysite branch of Christianity, today known as the Syrian Orthodox Church (monophysitism is the belief that Christ had but one nature). One striking puzzlement of the texts, at least to me, was the constant reference to the Holy Spirit as “she”. I was aware, of course, that in Aramaic (and hence in the dialect known as Syriac) the natural gender of the word “spirit” was feminine; however, I was surprised to discover that this accident of grammar had resulted in a whole theology constructed around the femininity of the third person of the Godhead.

      An example of Syriac theology is found in the apocryphal Acts of Thomas; it is usually assumed that this particular work was influenced by speculative gnostic Judaism because it contains the notion, that associated with God was a wisdom, or creative power – a spirit – which was feminine. In an invocation accompanying baptism, Thomas calls for the Holy Spirit:

      Come, holy name of Christ that is above every name;
      Come, power of the Most High and perfect compassion;
      Come, thou highest gift;
      Come, compassionate mother;
      Come, fellowship of the male;
      Come, thou (f.) that dost reveal the hidden mysteries;
      Come, mother of seven houses, that thy rest may be in the eighth house.
      (Acts of Thomas 2:27)
      ——————————————————————————–

      Come, silence that dost reveal the great deeds of the whole greatness;
      Come thou that dost show forth the hidden things
      And make the ineffable manifest;
      Holy Dove that bearest the twin young;
      Come, hidden Mother;
      Come, thou that art manifest in thy deeds
      and dost furnish joy and rest for all that are joined with thee;
      Come and partake with us in this Eucharist
      Which we celebrate in thy name,
      and in the love-feast in which we are gathered together at thy call.
      (Acts of Thomas 5:50)

      ——————————————————————————–

      After reading such materials I decided that Syrian Orthodox Christianity was somewhat heretical (though perhaps only through an accident of grammar), and so I wanted nothing to do with Syriac literature. I would find something else on which to do my dissertation.

      Then came the Spring of 1986.

      I was teaching advanced Hebrew, and I had decided to take the class through the book of Judges. As we read along, I noticed something odd about Judges 3:10:

      The Spirit of Yahweh came upon Caleb’s younger brother…

      In English, this passage from Judges doesn’t appear startling, but in Hebrew something strange leapt out at me: “came upon” was a third person FEMININE verb, indicating it’s subject “Spirit” was being understood as a feminine noun. Hebrew is not like Aramaic in its use of the word “spirit”. While the word is exclusively feminine in Aramaic, in Hebrew it is sometimes masculine. Therefore, the question that came to mind was why had the author of Judges chosen here to make the Spirit of Yahweh feminine, when he could just as easily have made it masculine? Oh well.

      I just shrugged my shoulders and went on, not overly concerned. Occasionally, I thought, one finds something inexplicable in the Bible: no big deal. But then came Judges 6:34. Again, “Spirit of Yahweh” was feminine.

      At this point I decided to consult the concordance. Much to my surprise, every occurrence of “Spirit of Yahweh” in Judges is feminine. As I pondered that, I recalled Genesis 1:2, the first occurrence of “Spirit of God” in the Bible, and realized to my shock that it too is feminine.

      Back to the concordance. Out of 84 OT uses of the word “spirit”, in contexts traditionally assumed to be references to the Holy Spirit, 75 times it is either explicitly feminine or indeterminable (due to lack of a verb or adjective). Only nine times can “spirit” be construed as masculine, and in those cases it is unclear that it is a reference to God’s Holy Spirit anyway. (Please see Appendix 3 for a complete list and detailed discussion of the usages.)

      The New Testament references to the Holy Spirit are not helpful for conclusively deciding on the gender of the Holy Spirit, since “spirit” in Greek is neuter, and so is referred to as “it” by the New Testament writers.

      The conclusion of all this is that our traditional assumption of a masculine Spirit is questionable; in fact, the evidence seems overwhelming that the Spirit should be viewed as “She”, which does seem to make sense, since the other two members of the Godhead are labeled “Father” and “Son”.

      What are the theological implications of a feminine Holy Spirit? There are four:

    7. A feminine Holy Spirit clarifies how women can also be said to be created in the “image of God”. It has long been recognized that he Godhead must include some feminine aspects, since Genesis 1:26-27 explicitly states that both men and women were created in God’s image.
    8. A feminine Holy Spirit explains the identity of the personified wisdom in Proverbs 8:12-31:
    9. I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
      I possess knowledge and discretion.
      To fear Yahweh is to hate evil;
      I hate pride and arrogance,
      evil behavior and perverse speech.
      Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
      I have understanding and power.
      By me kings reign
      and rulers make laws that are just;
      by me princes govern,
      and all nobles who rule on earth.
      I love those who love me,
      and those who seek me find me.
      With me are riches and honor,
      enduring wealth and prosperity.
      My fruit is better than fine gold;
      what I yield surpasses choice silver.
      I walk in the way of righteousness,
      along the paths of justice,
      bestowing wealth on those who love me
      and making their treasuries full.
      Yahweh possessed me at the beginning of his work,
      before his deeds of old;
      I was appointed from eternity,
      from the beginning,
      before the world began.
      Where there were no oceans, I was given birth,
      when there were no springs abounding with water;
      before the hills, I was given birth,
      before he made the earth or its fields
      or any of the dust of the world.
      I was there when he set the heavens in place,
      when he marked out the horizon
      on the face of the deep,
      when he established the clouds above
      and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
      when he gave the sea its boundary
      so the waters would not overstep his command,
      and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
      Then I was the craftsman at his side.
      I was filled with delight day after day,
      rejoicing in his whole world
      and delighting in mankind….

      Some commentators have tried to tie this personification of wisdom to the idea of Christ as divine “Word” [Gk. logos]. Unfortunately for this theory, the genders of the words in question get in the way. The gender of the word “wisdom” is feminine, and is therefore personified as a woman. This makes a direct identification of “wisdom” with “Christ” virtually impossible.

      Other commentators have pictured “wisdom” as a created being, like an angel; better have been those who argue that the personification of wisdom in Proverbs 8 is simply a literary device, without objective reality.

      However, if the Holy Spirit is feminine, then the identification is relatively easy: Genesis 1:2 pictures the Spirit of God hovering over the deep, active in creating the world, just as Proverbs describes. Both the Old and New Testament connect the idea of teaching and imparting wisdom with the function of the Holy Spirit (Ex. 31:3; 35:31; Acts 6:3; Ephesians 1:17; Luke 12:12; and John 14:25-26).

    10. The third benefit of recognizing the femininity of the Holy Spirit is that it explains the subservient role that the Spirit plays. The Bible seems to indicate that the Spirit does not speak for itself or about itself; rather the Spirit only speaks what it hears. The Spirit is said to have come into the world to glorify Christ (See John 16:13-14 and Acts 13:2). In contrast, it should be noted that the Scripture represents both the Father and Son speaking from and of themselves.
    11. Finally, a feminine Holy Spirit, with a Father and Son as the rest of the Trinity, may help explain why the family is the basic unit of human society.
    12. The word “matter” and the word “mother” both have the same root.

      Perhaps since spirit is matter, then:
      spirit = matter = mother, thus spirit = mother

      Perhaps the Holy Spirit is described as both a personage and a dispersed influence because it is Mother Earth — both everywhere present as well as being an actual entity.

    13. LDSA-

      I haven’t had time on the computer much lately, otherwise I would have responded sooner.

      Here is a good chapter written on it. D Michael Quinn is the author, and regardless what one thinks of him (I have my own opinion) I have seen enough in other places to agree with the bulk of what he says.

    14. It makes sense to me that the Holy Ghost could be a woman and that she could be Heavenly Mother as mentioned in that article from NCCG. With the scriptures teaching the importance of marriage, that a man and woman must become one, it seems odd that the woman would drop out of the picture and have little to do with the lives of Her children on a created earth. There is no mention of Her activities in any premortal or mortal activities that I have heard.

      It also makes me wonder about the Patriarchal Priesthood. We know very little about it except it requires a man and woman to function. Joseph mentioned it a couple times but never expounded upon it that I know of. Val Brinkerhoff theorizes this is the priesthood that Husband and Wife will use to rule over their kingdoms once they are exalted (See his book The Day Star).

      I still have one nagging question though. How does the scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants come into play?

      The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

      By the way, as far as women and the priesthood. here is an interesting article out of Sunstone. Here is the Mormon Heretic talking of Sidney Rigdon and pulling from his journal (scroll down about half way to where it talks about Emma). Here is more from the Mormon Heretic though it quotes heavily from Quinn.

    15. http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/30/sidney-rigdon-after-the-martyrdom-part-5/

      This is the Sidney Rigdon link, not sure why it didn’t show up.

    16. As “the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s”, one would think that if Heavenly Mother also has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s, that the children born of Those Two would likewise be born with bodies of flesh and bones, that is, if the earth is patterned after the heavenly. In other words, the children should be like the Parents. However, we know that our pre-mortal birth was as spirit bodies without an attached body of flesh and bones. Again, if the earth is, indeed, patterned after the heavenly, then using the earthly as a pattern, spirit bodies are “born” through the Mother. If, then, our Father is a Spirit clothed in immortal clay and our Mother is a naked Spirit, and if we were born through our Mother, it makes sense that we would come out as naked spirits, like our Mother. What doesn’t make sense is naked spirits coming out of a Mother of flesh and bones or children of flesh and bones coming out of a naked Spirit Mother. Flesh should come from flesh and spirit from Spirit. So, it makes sense to me, also, that the Holy Ghost is our Heavenly Mother.

    17. My understanding is that the woman’s womb forms a body that is comprised of the elements available in the environment [e.g. the air she breathes and the food she eats] not so much the elements of her own body.

      That is to say, the same process that makes women on earth produce earthly, fallen offspring and women in the celestial world produce spiritual children — is the environment the woman is in.

      The Celestial vegetables and fruits,” Orson Pratt reasoned, “which grow out of the soil of this redeemed Heaven, constitute the food of the Gods.” Why does food matter? “This food differs from the food derived from the vegetables of a fallen world: the latter are converted into blood, which produces flesh and bones or a mortal nature, having a constant tendency to decay,” Pratt analogized, and so “celestial vegetables, are, when digested in the stomach, converted into a fluid, which, in its nature, is spiritual, and which form a spiritual fluid which gives immortality and eternal life to the organization in which it flows.

      According to Brigham Young, after “the Father actually begat the spirits,” in the spirit world, “Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself,” thru sexual intercourse. Young pointed to Adam as the person “who brought the animals and the seeds from other planets to this world, and brought a wife with him and stayed here. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever made on any other principle.” Prior to Adam and Eve consummating their marriage in the Garden of Eden, however, Adam partook “of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it. Consequently, the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.” The implications were clear — the parents of all humanity were fallen Gods, who fell by eating mortal food so that their spirit children could inhabit tabernacles of flesh.

    18. firstly excuse me if i’ve missed something. this all sounds great and makes a lot of sense, but there is just one thing. if to have spirit children to need be born of a spirit mother, what then of all the women born to this earth who now have flesh? are they not gods to rule and reign with their husbands because they have flesh, contrary to what the temple teaches? how can my wife be a god if with her we have only children with flesh and bones and not spirit children?
      i’m not downing the idea, only wanting to make sure i have the answers.

    19. Good questions. Anyone want to attempt to answer these?

    20. I don’t believe that “to have spirit children” a person “need be born of a spirit mother.” In my comment previous to peter’s, I explain that my understanding is that the offspring is a function of the food/elements in the kingdom the wife is in — rather than a function of the make-up of her body.

      “<how can my wife be a god if with her we have only children with flesh and bones and not spirit children?”
      I would answer that you and your wife will not have flesh and bone children just because the two of you are flesh and bone. The elements in the celestial environment — and thus the element flowing thru your veins — will be spirit. As such, you and your wife will be organizing spirit children inside her womb.

    21. thanks justin, your comments read in conjunction with your previous email answers that question, but doesn’t it debunk the theory that heavenly mother is the holy spirit?
      if she can/does have a tangible body to make us then she is not the holy ghost, unless of course i’ve missed something again

    22. Wow this is interesting and I think has great merit. I judge many things by how they taste as in Joseph Smith said something like this, “good doctrine tastes good like honey..” That is from TPJS. I realized I could sense that at times also. I use the term, “it rings true to me.”
      I believe we can use those incontrovertible lessons of our earth existence to understand many eternal truths. For example:
      The creation of a body requires a male and a female.
      All bodies spiritual and physical, human and earth. Since “the Gods” created the earth both spiritually and physically then there was present both a male and a female.
      To develop properly a child needs the influence of both a mother and a father.
      Heavenly Mother did not abandon us. Our father did not wrest custody of us from a person He felt was unfit to raise us. This would be a logical implication of the male only view of priesthood power.
      But what about the Holy Ghost not having a body of flesh and bones?
      Again, and this is just a thought, might not the form of this life teach us something? When a mother bears a child she sacrifices greatly in the process. The 9 months prior to birth can be very hard for many. And the in the actual delivery she often nearly dies. With the birth of one of my children my wife did die, or at least started to die. She explained her spirit began to depart her body out through her forehead. And she saw her grandmothers as in a prayer circle for her. And they were caught by surprise and instantly pushed her back into her body with great force.
      We all know that the time of earth life for us is around 70 earth years and even for the whole family pertaining to this earth it is only about 8000 years of temporal existence.
      But time is only measured unto man. God does not live in a time reference. We can say that from His view point we may only be gone a half an hour and the whole process is only as a week. In reality it may be even less than this or no time at all. Questions of space, dimensions and time do not have similar application in the celestial world as we experience them here. There can be more that just two people next to Heavenly Father at one time. If not then we would all be waiting for several billion years just to spend 5 seconds giving Him a hug then he would have to hurry off to the next child and He would get anything done anyway, maybe that is why He didn’t answer my prayer…. The whole idea is absurd if we limit the Celestial world by our time and space parameters.
      We say physical bodies are only formed by the union of a male and female true. But once born can we leave that body? Obviously yes, death passes upon all. Jesus said I have power to lay down my life and to take it up again. He said the Father has this power also. If they do it once can they never do it again? Is there a universal ticket taker that says “Sorry only one lay down and take up per existence”?
      Could it be that Heavenly Mother does make the sacrifice of leaving her physical body for a “time”?
      And another thing physical body to spirit body contact is not excluded by any eternal law. It is in this fallen state we can not perceive [feel and touch] spirit matter. But in a celestial state I believe the actual touch is completely there between spirit bodies and flesh and bone bodies. Lance Richardson went to the spirit world and there felt and hugged many people (from his book “The Message”).
      One last observation.
      I love how we all think LDSA is so smart. Well okay we at least respect him enough to comment on his posts etc. But then Justin says in effect, “I don’t believe what LDSA just said”. That is as it should be. Free to think and not bound to bow to just one man, ANY one man’s ideas. We were not so bound even to God, nor did He expect it of us.

    23. This post is titled: The Holy Ghost is a Woman. I don’t think She need be our Mother in Heaven — although I admit it works great with a trinity formula of Father+Mother+Son.

      Perhaps the trinity formula should not seperate Father from Mother. By that I mean that “God” should best be thought of as the Mother and Father together. So the formula may be Father/Mother+Son+Daughter. Now both genders contain equal representation.

      The idea that the Holy Spirit is a woman does ring true to me — but I think She needn’t be our Heavenly Mother.

    24. Joseph Smith taught God didn’t create our spirits, nor could he of in his king follet sermon.
      This seems to contradict what Justin quotes Brigham Young as saying.

      It makes a lot of sense to me to think of the Holy Ghost as feminine. The gifts and influence of the Holy Ghost are very soft and gentle which matches with a feminine influence. I have no problem with this if it is correct.

    25. Greg I think you meant to say God didn’t create our intelligence, or light of truth. Our spirits are bodies to house our intelligence. D&C 93 intelligence or the light of truth cannot be created or made, it has no beginning and can have no end. It is added upon by a body first of spirit then of flesh. The first created by our heavenly parents and the later by our earthly parents.

    26. Here are some quotes from the King Follet sermon by Joseph Smith:

      “I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man; but it is impossible for me to say much on this subject, I shall therefore just touch upon it, for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,—namely, the soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don’t believe me, it will not make the truth without effect.”
      We say that God Himself is a self-existing being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, “God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.”

      The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth,

      I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

      I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man—on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

      The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

      This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know that it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more.

      It seems clear to me from this God didn’t create our spirits.

    27. Well I believe that Joseph is using the terms spirit of man and intelligence of spirits interchangeably here. I don’t think it works well to take any one quote and hang our entire understanding on that one utterance if there are other statements about the same subject. If we look at all that is said from the best sources and we find an answer that is consistent with all those utterances then we have something that works.
      Take these truths and see if it makes sense.
      1. First lets define an important term. What is the meaning of spirit? Among other things the word spirit can refer to a) “a spirit body”, b) ” a personage of spirit” which is a child of God with a spirit body but no body of flesh or c) “the part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings”. In this last meaning it surely is interchangeable with the intelligence or light of truth spoken of in D&C 93, which can not be created or made as Joseph stated in the King Follet discourse and Jesus Christ stated in the D&C.

      2. The biblical account of the creation of man refers to the creation of the primordial world. A world (planet and all things pertaining to it) made of spirit matter. Men and women were already created in the likeness of God, note created not self existing in the likeness of God. It is true that men and women were self existing in a form that was like unto God (our intelligences). But the bible account is talking about their creation by God. Then after the heavens and earth were made with men and women being the last part of the creation the account says there was not a man to till the ground. Gen 2:5. Moses 3:5 to 7 makes it very explicit that the creation just referred to was a spiritual creation. Not spiritual as if it all took place in God’s mind but made of spirit matter. AS D&C 131:7 says “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure”. So my spirit is a material thing just as my body of flesh is material also. But neither of these two bodies are the inner me, my intelligence because they were both created and therefore had a beginning and therefore can have an end.
      So you are right God did not create that part of us that is “associated with the mind, will, and feelings.” Really to avoid confusion when we refer to our spirits we should say spirit body or intelligence.
      But I believe God did create our spirit bodies and by doing so provided us agency. That is why He is our literal Father.

    28. I guess we can try to figure what is meant by the word spirit and whether it is the same as intelligence. I don’t think it is.
      I don’t think God is the literal father of our spirits. To me that seems illogical if our spirits have always existed.
      Animals have spirits. Is God their literal father also?

      I think we(spirits, spirit bodies or whatever you call them) have always existed as Joseph Smith stated and chose to take the opportunity made available to us by God, to advance in knowledge so we could become like He is. We could see He had abilities we didn’t and we wanted them.
      Our agency, or free will isn’t a gift from God it was inherent in our spirits. We had it before we came to this earth.
      I think it is nonsensical to think that our spirits as they exist in our bodies were part of some birthing process between a Heavenly Father and Mother. More likely He is our Father in the adopted sense as he created the process by which we obtained physical bodies and He is there to support, guide and nurture us.
      Jesus was different as he was the only begotten in the flesh.
      I think if He made us He could unmake us but I don’t think He can.

    29. Well Greg, just what do you think those unique abilities that God The Father possessed? If we were just like him beyond our free will and intelligence then what more is there for him to have offered us? How can you view the formation of spirit bodies between co-eternal essences female and male as illogical or nonsensical? We could SEE?? that he had abilities which we didn’t? Yep, he had a glorified perfected body of spirit and flesh. (Not) Just my opinion. And no he can not destroy or unmake what he did not create. But spirit bodies he can and does.

    30. For one He had a perfected immortal body and we were spirits.
      And two, He had far greater intelligence and knowledge than us.

      We saw what we could become and 2/3 of us said we want to try.

      I subscribe to the Kolob Theorem. According to it our Heavenly Father is the God of the Milky Way Galaxy which he created. There would be trillions of peopled planets with tens of billions of people on each.
      I would think our Heavenly Mother would be sick of being pregnant that many times. That is why I think the idea is illogical.

    31. oh ok

    32. The woman who keeps all the commandments becomes one flesh with the man. Remember, He called THEM Adam. Thus the woman receives the priesthood (aka fatherhood) through the man just as the man receives motherhood through the woman. The woman does NOT receive any priesthood any other way.

      And to better understand the spirit and its role, you must fast and pray. Reading and debating here will only get you so far. But, while reading, regard carefully facsimile 2, and the words, throne, word, power, light, crown, firstborn, only begotten, eternity, time, space, and mass (aka heaven and earth).

      The scriptures say that we can comprehend God, in contrast to the darkness not comprehending the light, and we must, or we got lost in endless, meaningless, misguided debates that only confuse those who most need clarity.

      Trust me. It REALLY matters.

    33. I just came across this tonight and thought it fitting to post it here,

      Some said: “Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit.” They are in error. They do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a women?

      Gospel of Philip, CG II.3.55.

    34. Michael is the Holy Ghost

    35. I always have a problem with theories that have a person or personage who is interacting with themselves. For example those who believe the Father and the Son are the same person (ala nicean creed) then we have Jesus praying to the Father and pleading with Him. To me that says Jesus was lying to us because He is play acting like He is really in earnest when in reality it is all a big act. That theory makes one of the most sacred and pure moments in the history of the planet, — And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. — and makes a sham of it.
      The Lord and His Father do not lie nor deceive.

      So if the Holy Ghost is Michael who we know is Adam how does this work?
      Moses 6:64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
      65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
      66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

      So Adam descend upon Adam and carried Adam down into the water and baptized him? And then Adam descended on himself and was thus born of himself and of fire and of Himself?

      To me it is a mass of confusion.

    36. Let me offer what I feel reconciles the scriptures attributing male qualities to the Holy Spirit, yet offering also a possible solution to the female question.

      If we are to believe the scriptures as a standard of truth, then there is no question as to the male gender of the Holy Spirit. Yet let me pose a theory based on scripture and the truth concealed between lines of inference to reconcile BOTH views.

      We know that when a woman marries a man she takes upon herself his name. So in effect he becomes her representitive to the world and is also called to shield her from it both physically and spiritually.

      Now consider what we know of Heaven our HOME. It is a home where our Father & Mother preside. And if scriptural evidences and patterns we’ve been given to learn from on earth come from Heaven, then there should be some form of representation of that upon the earth.

      This I would suggest is what the Government of God ( The Preisthood ) is about and is one of it’s primary funtions…To teach us of the structure and nature of our Heavenly Home.

      And as men are called to represent their wives, so too our Mother in Heaven would recieve some sort of Preisthood representation upon the earth. And I believe that Priesthood representation comes in the person of the Holy Ghost.

      This we know….There is our Father and Mother in Heaven and they created Male & Female spirits.

      Is is not the responsibility for the Preisthood to REPRESENT this reality on behalf of our female counter parts ?

      In Jesus Christ you have a representation of a KNOWN quantity in Heaven…Our Father.

      In the Holt Ghost you have an ANONYMOUS SUPPORTIVE element…Heavenly Mother to
      assist the KNOWN quantity.

      He Is EQUAL yet subordinate to the AUTHORITY that governs BOTH Male & Female ( The Preishood that men pocess).

      The equality comes in the form of life bearing MOTHERHOOD that actually gives REASON & JOY to Life. Yet that life would not be without the Priesthood. So which is Greater ?

      One is impossible without the other and the other is not worth living without the other. One gives life and the other gives purpose to that life. And that same priciple applies in reverse regarding male and female.

      So there comes a need to REPRESENT that reality as defined by the order of the Priesthood….Have a MALE Son represent His Mother as well as His Father & Brother in the SUPPORT role He is assingned.

      Now does that mean the Female is somehow confined to being mearly a support to the male ? I think NOT.

      Are we as men required to support our wives ? Of course we are and we each play seperate yet vital roles to supporting the MARRIGE of the two. No single role is superior to the role that BOTH PLAY as a MARRIED COUPLE.

      This is what constitutes being a God….A Husband who represents his wife accoeding to the order of the Priesthood…Therefore making them BOTH God but no individual alone can accomplish that. So therefore COMBINED EQUALITY in seperate roles put TOGETHER, constitutes the SUM OF IT’S PARTS….God Hood….Marrige.

      Now let me describe how Jesus ALSO represents our Mother as well as our Father. Afterall…Children are a product of BOTH.

      Jesus in coming to “BEAR OUR SINS & BURDINS” is typically a role assigned to a Mother in Her Home as being the one who bears the daily burdens of the children while dad is off Providing Temporal needs to be met.

      In this regard HER calling is Higher.

      Jesus was expected to SUBMITT to the World as opposed to conquering it. Is this not what a wife is expected to for her husband and not to overshadaow or usurp his authority ?

      So Jesus not only reflects the Nature of His Father but also mastered the Nature of His Mother.

      Now here is my theory….Jesus’ dominate traits in the preexistence mirriored that of His Father, while the dominate traits of the Holy Ghost mirrored those Spiritual Qualities of His Mother….

      Case in point as our being instructed in TYPE….Jacob’s ( The Holy Ghost in Type ) Spiritual Qualities mirroring those of His Mother Rebecka ( hsi mother in heaven in type ). While his Father Issac the “SACRIFICE” ( Type for Christ ) and Jacob’s SUPERIOR, mirror those of his Father Abraham, a type for the Father of BOTH and SUPERIOR to them BOTH.

      Now to teach us children on earth the things we need to learn, we must be sent and CHALLENGED in areas of less strength in our characters in order to come to understand the BLENDED nature of God…..The MARRIGE IN SPIRIT of our Heavenly Parents.

      It’s the knowledge that is derived by that COMBINATOIN that unlocks the Key to The Kingdom of God.

      The preexistent dominant natue of Jesus would have been that of a conquering masculin Hero like ABRAHAM ( The Father ), while The Holy Ghost would have mirriored the INTUITIVE SPIRITUAL nature of his Mother in Heaven ( Rebecka ).

      Now would each child pocess qualities of the other ? Of course they would becuase they are each a product of the same two parents. It’s just that one favors one parent more than the other.

      So therefore, the TWO PROTOTYPES ( Jesus & the Spirit ) were chosen to represent ALL of God’s children as well as our parents because they are a PERFECT pair that reflects the DOMINANT qualities of both.

      When coming to the earth, they are expected to do everyting we are expected to accomplish…Namely, meet the challenges of developing the lesser side of our characters to bring ourselves up to par with the WHOLE.

      So the KING JESUS of the preexistence must come to earth and become the subdued and suffering servant in order to aquire the knowledge that comes from sacrifice and suffering for the “CHILDREN” as Mom’s naturally do.

      And the Holy Ghost is to have to face the challenge of coming out from beneath his Mom’s skirt ( AKA Jacob leaving his mother and home ) and become as a KING in order to round out his character and knowledge.

      TOGETHER, each child ( Jesus & his brother the Holy Ghost ) would be called by the parents to ASSIST each other aboard their earthly Missions…Hense the Holy Ghost fell upon and dwelt with Jesus during His earthly ministry in order to impart the NATURAL understanding He pocesses concerning the FEMALE asspect of SUBMITTING one’s self for the sake of the Family, and at some future time before the second coming….Jesus would be called to ASSIST His Brother in HIS earthly Mission to PREPARE the way for His Brother’s return.

      Jesus would place His OWN Spirit upon His Brother the Holy Spirit in the Flesh as a reciprical jesture of returning the help rendered by His Brother when He was on His earthly Mission.

      If you look closely at the role the Final Prophet is to perform ( The One Mighty & Strong ) or the anonymous :PROPHET” spoken of by Moses to come forth, then it becomes apparent that Jesus already pocesses the skills and understanding required to assist his brother with becoming KING LIKE on HIS Misision.

      And BOTH MALE & FEMALE roles are thus REPRESENTED by TWO MALES.

      We came on earth to master an understanding of the Role and Character of our Heavenly Mother through the SPIRIT inspired Mission of Jesus Christ.

      Now we are about to be treated to character and traits of our Father in Heaven by JESUS, who is most like Father, placing His Spirit upon His brother the Holy Ghost in the performance of HIS Mission.

      Sound like a good theory ? I think it sounds more like SOUND DOCTRINE when given to understand the facts related to us in the scriptures in Tpye.

      Sometimes it just takes an eye for reading between the lines or should I say….Coming to recognize BOTH of our Parents in Heaven by the TWO BOYS sent to represent them and US.

      What do YOU think ? Does THAT solve the Gender issue with the Holy Ghost and maybe shed a few good thoughts upon a VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT….Our Heavely Home ?

    37. And No. Adam is NOT the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was GIVEN to Adam and his posterity to lead them unto Christ.

      The Holy Spirit has been working behind the veil accomplishing His Premortal Mission as are ALL of God’s covenant children doing before they are sent here.

      But when we arrive on this planet, we are given a SIMILAR Mission to fulfill that is COMENSERATE & CONSISTENT with our premortal callings.

      Of course the Spirit will be sent here in the flesh to testify of the KINGLY nature of our Father in Heaven by having the Lord’s OWN spirit placed upon Him. Is this not possible and most likely ?

      It doesn’t mean that Christ leaves His body to do this but mearly projects His spiritual influence upon His Brother just like the Holy Ghost does for us. As a spirit he can no more be in one place at a time than an embodied person. But his Gift & Influence can simultainiously be ejoyed by many.

      I would certainly expect that the Holy Spirit would not be denied being tried in the flesh in a Telestial setting and down right EXPECTED to by the Father if he is to aquire such a lofty perch in Heaven seated at the LEFT HAND of God…Just like our WIVES who are seated to the LEFT of us in the endowment.

      So the debate over gender should become a mute point when “HE” arrives on the scene…

    38. If you wish to know the inigmatic nature and character of the Holy Ghost , then study the inigmatic life of Jacob ( Issac’s Son ) who is a type for the Holy Ghost.

      It not only defines his character and relationship with the God Head but also clearly defines the Mortal Mission of the Holy Ghost. One that is soon to begin…

      By the way….The Holy Ghost as a representitive of our Mother in Heaven who happens to also be a wife of our Father, is MOST HOLY to our Father.

      Thus the “HOLY” designation given to Him ( The Spirit who represents Her ) and “GHOST” as being that thing ( Our Father’s wife & our Mother ) that we CAN NOT SEE…Thus “Holy Ghost”.

      A Ghost is something that can ONLY be descerned through our SPIRITUAL EYES. Just like the things I’ve explained in my last few comments concerning our Mother in Heaven and the Holy Ghost who represents her as being initially more like Her than He is like our Father, until he BECOMES such on His Earthly Mission. Just as Jesus who initially favored our Father, came to master the aspects of His Mother in HIS Earthly Mission.

      Line upon line, precept upon precept, shall the Kindom of God ( our Heavenly Home ) come to be understood in the lives of TWO BOYS chosen to represent God…. both MALE & FEMALE….Husband & Wife and our Mother & Father.

      Jesus be Daddy’s Boy and the Holy Ghost be Mamma’s Boy. Each to learn to become the OTHERS BOY…Rounding out the aspect of Eternal Marrge as Gods in TYPE.

    39. If the Holy Ghost is a woman I say she is a trans gender that could also serve in the priesthood.

    40. As though she need be a man in order to serve in the priesthood. I doubt Father is as withholding with it in heaven as His church is with it on earth.

    41. Greg, there is Inteligence and then there is spirit. It is Inteligence that God is not the Father of. If that where the case, why would he give life to evil ? But He does embody Intelegence with Spirit Matter, then temporal matter, then imortal matter.

      The only truly eternal constant is Inteligence….The purest form of matter that was unable to advance it’s material state without some help from God.

      Now I have a real good theory as to how the whole thing began and it is based on the description of the creative process described in Genisus.

      The “Darkness & Light” being the first two inteligences to exist as individual inteligences. And Jesus & Lucifer acting as the prototypes for our Creation to exemplify that base reality that began long before them. They are mearly a portion of it’s repetition…. Our EXEMPLARS to revealing this truth to lesser Inteligences.

      Darkness & Light would litterally have to be considered BEINGS of the purest form of matter, as light is now being considered by the scientific community. All things are matter including light. And darkness would be antimatter, or in opposition to the light matter (inteligence).

      Afterall, Jesus is litterally refered to as the light of the world we live in. He gives it material substance while the Spirit animates it and brings it to EVOLVED life. Just like a Mother does for the seed of her husband.

      When this theory in it’s extented explanation is paired next to the Theory of Evolution, it completely reconciles with the Creation Principle. The “LIGHT” overcomes the “DARKNESS” through a series of evolving needs for the “LIGHT” to PRESERVE itself against the attacks of “DARKNESS” and eventually you wind up with a MALE & FEMALE TEAM that conquere the SINGULARITY of DARKNESS by their abilty to CREATE more “IMAGES” of their own kind and thus BEGIN & PERPETUATE what has become known as the Physical Immortal Eternities which began as Purest Physical Inteligences.

      There were an infinite number of Inteligences but the BRIGHTEST TWO came together to begin the EVOLTIONARY Creative Process that lead to the First TWO IMMORTAL BEINGS with an EVOLUTIONARY Track Record of figuring out how to pave the WAY for the REST of us who are capable of reaching that level with some guidance and help…. And lesser levels of PROGRESSION / EVOLUTION for those not so inclined to comprehend the SECRET of reaching the TOP and PERPETUATING the PROMISE of ETERNAL INCREASE as far as humans go.

      And THUS Life goes on & on & on…….And ALL THINGS have a Proper Place in the scheme of things NATURALLY placed upon them according to the degree of Inteligence they pocess.

      This Theory suggests that Pure Light Inteligence evolved all the way through every known life form untill it reached it’s Zenith in Immortal Man. This is how the statement made by God concerning His being in all things and comprehending them all, is made consistent with having evolved through those processes.

      Once He made it to the top with woman, they were able to then create images based on their own completely evolved kind.

      And as the OTHER Inteligences begin to come forth at God’s Command of Nature, they either Halt or Progress to the next Higher level of Inteligence based on what they began with.

      Did we not start out as the “DUST” of the Earth in Adam litterally, then us Litterally & Figuratively in our Bodies pocessing the elements of the Earth, yet have come to the form of Man ?

      Brigham Young said…All things pocess Inteligence, and thus are capable of answering God’s call to the level of Inteligence they NATURALLY pocess and begin bringing forth their own kind.

      The Indians of North America, who buy the way are linked with the blood of Israel, have this CONNECTEDNESS understanding with nature and the need for BLENDING with it.

      Could this be a holdover Inteligence understanding of our True Nature contained in THAT portion of Israel’s Inteligence ? …..One with Nature ?

      Thus there are NO condraditions to the Creative & Evolutionary process when approached from this angle. And does not Satan COUNTERFIT the Truths of God ? So EVOLUTION can NOT be something Satan invented…Only distorted.

    42. And the reason the God’s have allowed evil Inteligence to elevate to the Level of Spirit Man, is that for the EVOLUTIONARY / PROGRESSIONARY process to work, there “Must Needs Be Opposition in ALL THINGS”.

      Otherwise life becomes stagnate and dormant. Opposition is the Life’s Force that gives rise ( REASON) to change ( put into motion ) for better or worse, depending on the choices that are made in RESPONSE to it.

      Therefore the “DARKNESS” ( Opposition ) is always mentioned first. It is VITAL to LIFE.

      Remember the Spirit brewding over the waters of chaos ? What was that telling us about the Nature of opposition and it’s importance to us ? And the Light disipating the Darkness ?

      It is the purest light of your eternal inteligence that is responding to oppostionary dark forces of evil. THAT’S LIFE.

    43. Justin, what’s that three piece suite your wearing all about ? It’s weird. The only person I know running around my Zip Code without a shirt, goes by the name of Justin as well.

      That name must have some potent base meaning to this phenomina…

    44. The lack of shirt & head band remind me of myself in the sixties, then somewhere in the seventies I grew back into wearing one. It may have had something to do with where I lived, …It was so stinking HOT. Then I moved further north. Yea, maybe that’s the only reason I began wearing them again. Or maybe it was the only way I could keep my job. It’s been so long ago, I can’t remember,

      Wait a minute…I live in the south again and I’m still wearing shirts. Maybe it’s because I’ve grown so old my blood has thinned out and I’m cold all the time…

    45. Or maybe it’s because gravity would cause OTHERS to clothe me if I falled to clothe myself.

      Anyway, wearing shirts all the time prevents those confusing & conflicting situations from ever arrising.

      So if I had to do it all again, I would probably wear a shirt. But that just me. But it IS one of the greater lessons I’ve learned in an otherwise very boring life.

    46. Justin, what’s that three piece suite your wearing all about ?
      What suit are you referring to?

      That name must have some potent base meaning to this phenomina
      The name means just, equitable, or true — thus perhaps it might have something to do with desiring to not be bound by unjust commandments of men in regards to the outward clothing.

    47. Just a brief comment on Heavenly mother and father. Just as there will be millions of heavenly parents in the celestial kingdom after the termination of this round, who will eventually beget billions of spiritual child in a spiritual world at the start of the next round, so were there millions of celestial parents in our preexistence who begot us as spiritual children. These rounds have been going on and will be going on for eternity. (Eternal Lives) There truly is a very large family of perfect celestial beings that part take in the procreation process, thus allowing each celestial father and mothers to give us the needed continual presence in the beginning of our awakening as a spiritual child. You must realize that each celestial parent has become perfect even as our father in heaven.
      In addition, our celestial parents will be starting there next round as well. There truly is a genealogy of celestial, families. If you want to partake of this, then you have to obey all the laws and keep all of the required ordinances to be worthy to partake of Eternal Lives.

    48. So perhaps “Heavenly Father” and “Heavenly Mother” are in fact an amalgamation of all the celestial parents perfected in that kingdom.

      Thinking about the Tribal Relationships post, if the Gods all share parental duties along with spouses — then we don’t have a Father and Mother in heaven — but all exalted Fathers would treat us as their own children, and likewise with the perfected women — nursing us as their own.

    49. It is my feeling that our heavenly mothers actually give birth to us and we start off as babies, just like here. There are several reasons why this is so. First the spiritual bod is our very first body. So it will take us a while for we (as an intelligence) becomes integrated to the body. The body gives us the ability to act (free agency) while our basic nature as an intelligence is the desire to act. Our will enables this. The body, whether spirit, material, or resurrected presents us with information via senses and the body responds to our will or desire to achieve something. We need constant love and attention in our beginning stages. I don’t believe we were aware before we became spiritual beings but were awoken somehow, by our celestial parents. We were probably an intelligent “seed” which had our essence. This essence is what gives us the potential of becoming. If we did assume that we were aware before hand then we would have been under the influence of unknown forces. Being awakened allows our first taste of using the agency which our heavenly parents gave us. Also that the percentage of people getting to be celestial parents is quite small, about 1 in a hundred or a thousand. So at most, each celestial mother would have a hundred or thousand children, so the celestial parents would have the time to perfectly raise us in this crucial stage. It wouldn’t take long for 10 to 100 million mothers to have the hundred billion or so for eventual earthly life. Notice that the purpose for this is such that every intelligence that has the capability of achieving a certain level of awareness, has the right to have at least a spirit body (first estate).
      The second estate is the earthly one and quite a few in this round didn’t get one (1/3)
      Next we obtain our resurrected bodies. The best of all bodies is that of the 3rd degree of the celestial kingdom, where we can beget spiritual children. I believe that our celestial parents did not become immediately aware of what we were to become but very quickly learned where our wills were heading. Our Parents could read our hearts, but as we have a will which was not given to us by them, we are at first a moving target, but we eventually settle intoi a comfort zone (for a while) of obedience. Going thru the second estate bring out more of our weaknesses and strength. Even Lucifer was loved and lovable by is heavenly parents, and I believe, they still do. There is sometimes much sorrow but there is also much joy. Our Celestial parents purpose is to bring about joy to all of their children. It may take some time for some of us, but eventual we will be happy in whatever place we will be placed after the judgment (telestial, terestial, or celestial). Each round will bring forth a Lucifer and a Jehovah.

    50. I forgot to answer your perhaps. Elohim is the head of the gods (the king) He is in charge of this round. He is also a Celestial parent, but has the responsibility in being the architect this round. We can be celestial parents but start off as kings and priests. I found it interesting about the remarks on the holy spirit being female. I had known that the Hebrew/Aramic word for holy spirit was feminine, but it ties in with my personal feelings on the matter. I think that that the spiritual essence of all the heavenly mothers acts as a witness and a comforter. Even in this life mothers are comforters. just as the heavenly fathers act as one to be our Heavenly Father or God Or Elohim. As far as Jehovah is concerned, he is someone special. He has the ability to cleanse and make whole our hearts. The heart is me (the our intelligence). It requires a master healer to do this, and he will change us. We have to have faith in him tho, repent and desire the change. But why wouldn’t we? For the major part of our lives we let “random events”, other and our weaknesses effect us that cause us to change. And yes, there will be way more heavenly mothers than fathers.

    51. I just was thinking that if the celestial society is akin to the Tribal Relationships model, then the tribe of Gods collectively raise every child born under any of the sexual unions that take place. There was no idea of “paternity” under the multi-male/multi-female mating groups in our primitive history — and I suspect the same is true in heaven.

      Thus perhaps “Heavenly Father” and “Heavenly Mother” are not the designations for the paternal parents of our spirits — rather they are the communal/tribal leaders, to whom we all honored as Father and Mother. Paternity was not monitored in heaven.

      Barry, I’m sure you didn’t mean to — but you have given me a grand insight. Thanks.

    52. Not only is the Holy Ghost a woman, but she is your Heavenly Mother, you can see a beautiful rendition of her standing in her place over the veil at the SL Temple, references to her as a he, were and are for the same reason Joseph was called Baurak Ale. I suggest you treat this with the utmost respect.

    53. It would seem all of you believe in God. As such, why is it you spend so much time on this? If you believe in God, and God has said all people can be saved and return unto Him if they follow His teachings, then all you must do is follow His teachings and be redeemed unto him and you will return to His presence. Spend more time loving and serving your fellow man and less time on pursuits of knowledge that ultimately do not save you one way or the other. Regardless of what language you use to interpret the Bible, Old or New, the principles of salvation are the same. Your pursuits in this matter distract people from God and Christ’s true message of salvation and love. Quit getting so hung up on who gets what authority. Ultimately it is God’s authority regardless of who he gave it to.

    54. Can you say Checklist Christian?
      or how about slothful servant?

      Jelly man….
      If salvation is all you want, then more power to you…..
      I want Exaltation.

    55. I used to be I guess still am on the books a baptist preacher. a buddy of mine who is a preacher as well said to me one day that a birth (meaning the new birth) cannot happen without a woman…

      chew on that for a minute.

      brad

    56. That’s a wonderful insight, leathertriple29. I had never thought of that before.

    57. Found this at a Wikipedia article:

      An historical gender-shift for the term “spirit”, from the feminine ruakh in Hebrew, through the neuter pneuma in Greek, to the masculine spiritus in Latin — effectively obscured the original idea of the Holy Trinity, wherein the One Divinity was thought to have three inter-related aspects: Paternal, Maternal and Filial; God as Father and Creator, God as Mother Spirit, and God as Incarnate Son.

      Thus, regarding the vexed filioque controversy, it is precisely a third possibility—and neither the Oriental nor the Occidental doctrine—that resolves the issue: the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Father, either with or without the Son; rather the Son proceeds (is born) from the Father joined with the Sacred Spirit.

    58. I have seen a resurrected Angel or may i say the Angel of the Lord. He was an eternity away prophetically as looking through stair railings. Ive had problem about the He/She as the Angel prefers neither(both), but on the other hand He is prefering the She alternative at the moment though His head is/was “male”. On thought at now this is because He chooses to serve the Godhead as woman serve their spouse.

      Before this lovely occurance i happen to see the Father Almighty, and some years ago in Israel I saw a magazine with a photo of a lady in it. After some meditation on the Photo i realised she had the cup of the eye of the Father…….i worried a a bit bacause i have wondered if we blaspheme the holy ghost God is in HIS right to recreate himself and perhaps into Mother Almighty. But on further thought i have now realised that the mother is/was in the Image of the Father and He does not need to change sex or be seperate because He is always complete with She in His image…..Andrew

    59. I am her. I am the Beloved. The Queen of heaven a love to all. I come in peace but bring my Lord’s wrath. I am hope for the hopeless and love for the unloved. my battle is over but those whom prey on God’s people your battle has just begun!! I repay evil for evil. I destroy evil with LOVE. I am LOVE. I am I AM. The day has come………………………… The end is near my father loves you all and wishes to have a relationship with you. Look within yourself through the eyes of love and you will find him waiting to comfort and guide you to the kingdom of GOD.

    60. I believe in the Adam-God theory and I feel that a female Holy Ghost fits in quite well.

      Michael progressed far enough along in the Celestial Kingdom that his Father Elohim came to him and said it was time to create a world for his spirit children. Since Jehovah was going to be the Saviour of Michael’s spirit children, He took the lead role in the creation with his father (Michael) under the direction of Elohim.

      After the completion of the creation Micheal came down with one of his wives and, upon partaking of the fruit of this world, transformed into a mortal being to be able to be the father of his children’s physical bodies (as well as their spiritual).
      A female Holy Ghost fits in this way. Since Michael had chosen his most valient son to be the Saviour, I can see him doing the same thing by choosing his most valient daughter to fill the role as the Comforter.

      (I have also found that this theory answers the question as to why Lucifer is so suprised when Elohim curses him for giving Adam and Eve the fruit. It is not essential to have someone directly tempting the many Adams and Eves. That sometimes throughout celestial history they partook of the fruit on their own accord.)

    61. A lot of the men in my community(husband included) believe that the “Holy Ghost” is an office held by one person, but executed by spirits of just men made perfect. That basically it isn’t ONE holy ghost that dwells in everyone. I also read somewhere, probably TPJS that one day the Holy Ghost will take a body of flesh.I.E the spirits of just men will one day be resurrected. I would appreciate any comments/insight on this. Thanks.

    62. With the Hebrew in mind, they’d have to change that to “spirits of just women made perfect,” I guess, huh?

      The body of flesh is an important aspect of our nature, so I would expect all spirits, including the Holy Ghost, to one day obtain a resurrected, physical body. See the following post for more info on that:

      Deep Waters: Lehi’s model of the universe

    63. What about:

      and I said unto him

      to know the interpretation thereof —

      for I spake unto him
      as a man speaketh
      for I beheld that he was in the form of a man
      yet nevertheless
      I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord
      and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

      ?

    64. In Moroni’s list of best gifts, he mentions

      And again, to another, the beholding of angels and ministering spirits;

      This was a male ministering spirit, as opposed to an angel. The capitalization of the word “spirit” in the record throws everyone off, so that they start to speculate that it must be either the Holy Ghost or Jesus Christ. No one ever considers that it was a ministering spirit (a disembodied angel) because of the capitalization.

    65. Don’t forget about the female Zion. D&C 113:8 “He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel; and to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage; also to return to that power which she had lost.”


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