An alternate view of the keys

Note: This article is 22,421 words long. As a result, I highly doubt anyone will read it in its entirety, therefore I am hyper-linking all the section headings so that you can quickly jump to any section you may be interested in.

Section Headings


The current viewThe divine right of prophets and presidenciesThe divine right of kings (and of popes)The mandate of heavenAll of the above divine right theories are falseMore on the current view of the keysPriesthood is not authority; it is a languageDefining the keys requires the Doctrine and CovenantsThe meaning of the conjunction “or” in the scripturesKeys = authorityMore scriptures that use “or” as an alternative definition of the same thingPriesthood and authority linked togetherEveryone who holds the priesthood possesses keysBy the authority (keys) of the priesthoodActive vs. inactive (suspended) keysHow priesthood keys are to be usedPriesthood keys are a testWhen suspended keys should not be activatedSuspended keys are good for nothingImpeding the work of the LordGraph of current view of priesthood keysGraph of alternate view of priesthood keysA priesthood machineThe priesthood in motionPriesthood is useless without activated keysAn example of activated quorum keys


A second set of keysThe keys of the churchThe law of common consentAll things to be done by common consentLord upholds servants only if there is common consentThe consent of the governedUnrighteous dominionTwo sets of keysBoth sets are neededThe keys of the church validate the keys of the priesthoodThe divine purpose of the church keysThe keys of the church are absoluteGod uses keys to prove His peopleIsrael to be led by the keysOrdinations voted by churchLicenses voted by churchLicenses can be revokedExcommunications (and priesthood invalidations) by vote of churchWho decides?The proper way to use the keys of the churchThe sisters and the keys of the churchHow ecclesiastical abusers deal with the sisters


Spektator’s questions answeredAnswer to question #1Answer to question #2Background on Alma the elderAlma the elder, priest of NoahIniquity with consentEnter AbinadiAlma’s priesthood authorityAnswer to question #3The break up of the church and the loss of the keysAn earthquake will break up the churchBoth sets of keys will be lostAmmonihah reduxHow the broken up churches will make moneyProphecy of no more Gentile stakes will be fulfilledName changesThe blood of the saints will be spilledThe fulfillment of 3 Ne. 16: 10-15A repeat of the ZoramitesHow the Zoramites treated the poorBroken up Mormon churches will lack charityIsaiah’s prophecy of the broken up Mormon churchesEarthquake imageryThe reason for the earthquakeConclusionEndnotes


The current view

Chapter 14 of Gospel Principles, which is this year’s Melchizedek Priesthood manual, gives the modern, LDS teaching on the keys:

Keys of the Priesthood

There is a difference between being ordained to an office in the priesthood and receiving keys of the priesthood. President Joseph F. Smith taught:

“The Priesthood in general is the authority given to man to act for God. Every man ordained to any degree of the Priesthood has this authority delegated to him.

“But it is necessary that every act performed under this authority shall be done at the proper time and place, in the proper way, and after the proper order. The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood. In their fulness, the keys are held by only one person at a time, the prophet and president of the Church. He may delegate any portion of this power to another, in which case that person holds the keys of that particular labor. Thus, the president of a temple, the president of a stake, the bishop of a ward, the president of a mission, the president of a quorum, each holds the keys of the labors performed in that particular body or locality. His Priesthood is not increased by this special appointment; … the president of an elders’ quorum, for example, has no more Priesthood than any member of that quorum. But he holds the power of directing the official labors performed in the … quorum, or in other words, the keys of that division of that work” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 141; italics in original).

To this we can also add the concept of suspension of keys.

Full provision has been made by our Lord for changes. Today there are fourteen apostles holding the keys in suspension, the twelve and the two counselors to the President, to be brought into use if and when circumstances allow, all ordained to leadership in their turn as they move forward in seniority. (Spencer W. Kimball, “‘We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet’,” Ensign, Jan 1973, page 33. Address delivered Friday morning, October 6, 1972.)

Here is an itemized summary of the mainstream, LDS understanding of keys:

  • Priesthood = Authority “Priesthood…is the authority given to man to act for God.” Anyone who has been ordained to the priesthood has this authority.
  • Keys = Power Keys constitute “the power of directing…labors.”
  • Only Prophet Holds All Keys (in Activated State) The fulness of (or all) the “keys are held by only one person at a time, the prophet and president of the Church.”
  • 14 Apostles Hold All Keys (in Suspension) “There are fourteen apostles holding the keys in suspension, the twelve and the two counselors to the President.”
  • Prophet May Delegate Some (Active or Unsuspended) Keys To Others “He (the prophet) may delegate any portion of this power, in which case that person holds the keys of that particular labor.”
  • Presidencies Receive Delegated (Active or Unsuspended) Keys All the presidencies of the church receive delegated keys, “the president of a temple, the president of a stake, the bishop of a ward, the president of a mission, the president of a quorum”, etc., each receives delegated, active keys.
  • Keys Do Not Increase Priesthood The “Priesthood is not increased by this special appointment; … the president of an elders’ quorum, for example, has no more Priesthood than any member of that quorum.”

To reiterate: according to this view, priesthood is authority, keys are the power to direct the official labors of the church and possessing keys (powers to direct official labors) does not increase priesthood (authority). For example, the prophet, who possesses every key in full activation, has no more authority (priesthood) than that of an elder who possesses none of the keys. Although authority is equal among all priesthood holders, power is not. Power, in the form of keys, is concentrated and centered at the top (the prophet) and is then disbursed to the various presidencies down below as he sees fit. The quorum member never receives any keys, whatsoever, unless he is called to a position that requires keys, such as a presidency. The only exception to this rule is the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, each member of which receives every key in suspension.

The divine right of prophets and presidencies

The mainstream view of the keys of the priesthood is a top-down perspective that resembles, and appears to be based upon, the doctrine known as the divine right of kings, which in turn was based upon the Roman Catholic doctrines known as papal primacy and papal supremacy. The latter two doctrines might rightly be termed the divine right of popes.

The British crown represented the establishment church system — the Church of England. Moreover, the king, by royal edict, was “lord sovereign head” of the Church. Even many years subsequent to the official separation of the Church of England from the Church of Rome, Anglicanism remained thoroughly steeped in the tyrannical and despotic traditions of popery. In Rome, the pope was sovereign head of the Church; but in England, it was the monarchy. The “divine right of popes” was exchanged for the “divine right of kings.” (Peter Kershaw, Reemergence of the Divine Right of Kings, 1997,

Due to the similarities between it and the divine right doctrines, I will call the modern, LDS view of the keys the divine right of prophets and presidencies.

The divine right of kings (and of popes)

The divine right of prophets and presidencies can only be understood in light of the divine right of kings, so let’s briefly review some divine right of kings basics:

1. In every kingdom, the king’s power comes directly from God, to whom the ruler is accountable; power does not come to the king from the people and he is not accountable to them.

(The divine right of prophets and presidencies would be: “In the kingdom of God on earth, the prophet’s power (keys) comes directly from God, to whom the prophet is accountable; power (keys) does not come to the prophet from the people (church members) and he is not accountable to them.”)

2. In every kingdom, the king makes the final decisions on all aspects of government (including the church). Other people and institutions that exercise political power do so as delegates of the king, and are subordinate to him.

(The divine right of prophets and presidencies would be: “In the kingdom of God on earth, the prophet and presidencies make the final decision on all aspects of church government. Other people and institutions that exercise ecclesiastical power (the presidencies) do so as delegates of the prophet, and are subordinate to him.”)

From the above we can see the parallels between the divine right of kings (and of popes) and the divine right of prophets and presidencies. The divine right of kings, popes, prophets and presidencies are all, essentially, the same doctrine applied to different institutions. These theories can be expressed in the following way:

The Divine Right of Kings is “the belief that the legitimacy of nothing the king does can be questioned.”

The Divine Right of Popes is “the belief that the legitimacy of nothing the pope does can be questioned.”

The Divine Right of Prophets and Presidencies is “the belief that the legitimacy of nothing the prophet and presidencies do can be questioned.”

(If you wish to learn more about the history and doctrine of the divine right of kings, you can try Wikipedia, the Encyclopaedia Britannica, or just do an Ixquick search. You may also wish to look up papal primacy and papal supremacy.)

The mandate of heaven

The Mandate of Heaven is a traditional Chinese philosophical concept concerning the legitimacy of rulers. It is similar to the divine right of kings in Western philosophy in that both sought to legitimize rule from divine approval; however, unlike the divine right of kings, the Mandate of Heaven is predicated on the conduct of the ruler in question. The Mandate of Heaven postulates that Tian (heaven) would bless the authority of a just ruler, but would be displeased with a despotic ruler and would withdraw its mandate, leading to the overthrow of that ruler. The Mandate of Heaven would then transfer to those who would rule best. (Wikipedia entry for Mandate of Heaven.)

Modern LDS believe that if a prophet of God were to try to do something contrary to the will of God, He would kill the prophet. This stems from Wilford Woodruff’s statement, which is pretty much taken as scripture by all LDS:

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

The God-will-strike-him-dead theory of how He deals with misleading prophets may also have derived from the following scripture:

While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning. (D&C 85: 8 )

Of course, this theory flies in the face of the actual scripture that shows how a sinning prophet is supposed to be dealt with:

And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood; and their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him. Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness. (D&C 107: 82-84)

Similar to the mandate of heaven, the divine right of prophets and presidencies leaves open the possibility of prophets sinning. But then it merges into the divine right of kings, leaving the actual removal of the prophet in the hands of God (instead of in the hands of the people, as called for in D&C 107: 82-84.)

All of the above divine right theories are false

There is no such thing as a divine right of kings, nor are there such things as papal supremacy and papal primacy, nor such a thing as a divine right of prophets and presidencies. These are all foolish and vain imaginations. And I will show it in this article. Nevertheless, although I am going to confine myself to exposing only the fallacy of the divine right of prophets and presidencies, these principles can be equally applied to kings and popes, too.

The strategy I will take in destroying the divine right theories is to expound upon the doctrine of the keys, for in my recent research into priesthood, it was the doctrine that showed the falsehood of those theories.

More on the current view of the keys

Before expounding on the keys, I must again list the itemized summary of the mainstream view because I need to make some refutations:

Priesthood = Authority “Priesthood…is the authority given to man to act for God.” FALSE. Priesthood, as explained in another article of mine, is a divine language. It is accompanied by authority, but is not authority, per se.

Keys = Power Keys constitute “the power of directing…labors.” FALSE. Keys are the authority of the Priesthood, not the power of the priesthood.

Only Prophet Holds All Keys (in Activated State) The fulness of (or all) the “keys are held by only one person at a time, the prophet and president of the Church.” TRUE.

14 Apostles Hold All Keys (in Suspension) “There are fourteen apostles holding the keys in suspension, the twelve and the two counselors to the President.” TRUE.

Prophet May Delegate Some (Active or Unsuspended) Keys To Others “He (the prophet) may delegate any portion of this power, in which case that person holds the keys of that particular labor.” SORT OF TRUE. What really occurs when keys are delegated is that the keys that the receiver previously held in suspension are now activated. In other words, they now have the right to use their keys. ALSO SORT OF FALSE. Saying “any portion of this power” is misleading, because keys are authority, not power.

Presidencies Receive Delegated (Active or Unsuspended) Keys All the presidencies of the church receive delegated keys, “the president of a temple, the president of a stake, the bishop of a ward, the president of a mission, the president of a quorum”, etc., each receives delegated, active keys. SORT OF TRUE. What really occurs when keys are delegated is that the keys that the receiver previously held in suspension are now activated. In other words, they now have the right to use their keys.

Keys Do Not Increase Priesthood The “Priesthood is not increased by this special appointment; … the president of an elders’ quorum, for example, has no more Priesthood than any member of that quorum.” TRUE. Every priesthood holder holds all the priesthood keys; it’s just that some keys are active while others are suspended. The prophet is an exception, for all his keys are active.

Priesthood is not authority, it is a language

Please see the previous article of this series for an in depth exposition of this principle. The relationship of authority to priesthood is that priesthood is accompanied by authority, or is inseparably connected with it. In one particular verse of scripture, because of this tight connection, priesthood and authority are even spoken of as being the same thing, but in every other verse of scripture, the two concepts are kept distinct. (Later on in this post I will address that one verse of scripture that links priesthood and authority together.)

Defining the keys requires the Doctrine and Covenants

The concept of priesthood keys is derived from but one verse in the Bible. Said the Savior to Peter:

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matt. 16: 19.)

Both the Catholic and Mormon churches agree that the above scripture is speaking of the keys of the priesthood, but that doesn’t say much about what constitutes keys, except that they are used to bind and loose, or, in the vernacular of a key, lock and unlock. Fortunately, Joseph Smith received many revelations which expounded on the doctrine of keys. So, it is to the Doctrine and Covenants that we must look.

The meaning of the conjunction “or” in the scriptures

Many of the scriptures in the Doctrine and Covenants that mention the word “keys” also utilize the conjunction “or,” therefore, it is necessary to know the possible shades of meaning that “or” may have. Here is the entry on “or” taken from the American dictionary in use during the time of Joseph Smith:


OR, a termination of Latin nouns, is a contraction of vir, a man, or from the same radix. The same word vir, is in our mother tongue, wer, and from this we have the English termination er.

It denotes an agent, as in actor, creditor. We annex it to many words of English origin, as in lessor, as we do er to words of Latin and Greek origin, as in astronomer, laborer. In general, or is annexed to words of Latin, and er to those of English origin.

OR, conj. [It seems that or is a mere contraction of other.]

A connective that marks an alternative. “You may read or may write;” that is, you may do one of the things at your pleasure, but not both. It corresponds to either. You may either ride to London, or to Windsor. It often connects a series of words or propositions, presenting a choice of either. He may study law or medicine or divinity, or he may enter into trade.

Or sometimes begins a sentence, but in this case it expresses an alternative with the foregoing sentence. Matt. 7 and 9.

In poetry, or is sometimes used for either.

For thy vast bounties are so numberless, that them or to conceal or else to tell is equally impossible.

Or is often used to express an alternative of terms, definitions or explanations of the same thing in different words. Thus we say, a thing is a square, or a figure under four equal sides and angles.

Or ever. In this phrase, or is supposed to be a corruption of ere.

OR, in heraldry, gold. [L. aurum.]

(Taken from the entry of “or” found in the 1828 Noah Webster’s Dictionary of the English Language.)

The “or” word that concerns us is the conjunction “or,” which has five shades of meaning. But of those five, only the two shades marked in red text above can apply to the scriptures we are studying in this article.

Keys = authority

Okay, so let’s write out some scriptures.

D&C 107: 15 as it stands in our books

The bishopric is the presidency of this priesthood, and holds the keys or authority of the same. (D&C 107: 15)

The same scripture using or as a connective that marks an alternative, corresponding to either

The bishopric is the presidency of this priesthood, and [either] holds the keys or [the] authority of the same.

INCORRECT SENSE. The above cannot be the meaning of the word or because we know that the bishopric both holds keys and authority, not one or the other.

The same scripture using or as an alternative definition of the same thing

The bishopric is the presidency of this priesthood, and holds the keys[,] or authority[,] of the same.

CORRECT SENSE. This is the only possible meaning of the word or in this sentence, therefore, KEYS = AUTHORITY in this scripture.

D&C 68: 17 as it stands in our books

For the firstborn holds the right of the presidency over this priesthood, and the keys or authority of the same. (D&C 68: 17)

The same scripture using or as a connective that marks an alternative, corresponding to either

For the firstborn holds the right of the presidency over this priesthood, and [either] the keys or [the] authority of the same.

INCORRECT SENSE. The above cannot be the meaning of the word or because we know that the firstborn both holds keys and authority, not one or the other.

The same scripture using or as an alternative definition of the same thing

For the firstborn holds the right of the presidency over this priesthood, and the keys[,] or authority[,] of the same.

CORRECT SENSE. This is the only possible meaning of the word or in this sentence, therefore, KEYS = AUTHORITY in this scripture.

More scriptures that use “or” as an alternative definition of the same thing

The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church— (D&C 107: 18)

The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, agreeable to the covenants and commandments. (D&C 107: 20)

In the above scriptures, “higher” means “Melchizedek Priesthood” and “lesser” means “Aaronic Priesthood.” The word “or” is used, in these sentences, “to express an alternative of terms, definitions or explanations of the same thing in different words.”

Priesthood and authority linked together

Here is the one verse of scripture that links priesthood and authority together, using the word “or.”

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. (D&C 121: 37)

The last phrase, “Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man” could mean, depending on how the word “or” is interpreted, “Amen to [either] the priesthood or [to] the authority of that man.” This could be a valid interpretation because priesthood could be referring to the rank and file priesthood holder who is not in a position of leadership and has no active keys (authority), whereas authority would be referring to priesthood leadership that holds active keys (authority).

On the other hand, “Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man” might also be interpreted as “Amen to the priesthood[,] or the authority[,] of that man.” This interpretation equates priesthood with authority (priesthood = authority, meaning priesthood = keys.) It might be a valid interpretation because without keys, priesthood cannot be used for anything. That is not to say that priesthood literally is authority (or keys, as defined in D&C 107: 15 and 68: 17), but that they go hand in hand, just as “the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven.”

It appears that the Priesthood = Authority camp are basing their interpretation on D&C 121: 37, using the conjunction “or” to “express an alternative of terms, definitions or explanations of the same thing in different words.” Such a literal approach, though, comes into conflict with the scriptures that define keys as authority, because, if Priesthood = Authority = Keys, then that means that everyone who holds the priesthood possesses keys, which is not what our priesthood leaders are teaching. (They teach that only the leaders hold keys.)

Each person will have to come to his or her own conclusion as to the meaning of the word “or” in that verse.

Everyone who holds the priesthood possesses keys

When any man has either of the two priesthoods conferred upon him, he holds all the keys of that priesthood.

The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—to have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, agreeable to the covenants and commandments. (D&C 107: 18-20)

This is the reason why keys do not increase priesthood. Priesthood already comes with every key. However, not all keys are active. Many of them are held in suspension, while others are active.

By the authority (keys) of the priesthood

All priesthood ordinances are performed by keys (authority). Whenever an ordinance is performed in which the authority is stated, it usually goes something like this:

“[Person called by name], in the name of Jesus Christ and by the authority of the [Melchizedek/Aaronic] priesthood which we [hold/possess], we lay our hands on your head and ordain/bless [etc.]…”

Because keys = authority, it would be just as valid to state the following:

“[Person called by name], in the name of Jesus Christ and by the keys of the [Melchizedek/Aaronic] priesthood which we [hold/possess], we lay our hands on your head and ordain/bless [etc.]…”

Active vs. inactive (suspended) keys

What sets priesthood holders apart is the number, and type of, active keys they hold. Some keys are always active, regardless of what priesthood office is held, while other keys are active only while specific offices are held or when they are taken out of suspension (activated) by some else’s active keys.

Keys that are always active require no one’s permission to use them. Melchizedek priesthood blessings of comfort or of health fall into that category of keys.

Keys in suspension can be taken out of suspension in two ways. The first way is when a man is ordained to an office and calling that requires certain keys to be activated. During this ordination, he will be “given the keys” that pertain to that office. This doesn’t mean that he gets something more, it merely means that he now has the right to use some of the suspended keys he already possessed while he is in that office and calling. This “delegation of keys” is really just an activation of certain keys that he possessed in suspension. Nothing more.

The now-activated keys can be used by the newly called and ordained priesthood officer to perform the duties of his calling, as well as to temporarily activate the suspended keys of priesthood holders within his jurisdiction.

Temporary activation of keys by a jurisdiction officer is the second way that keys can be taken out of suspension. For example, the active keys for ordinances of church record (baptism, confirmation, etc.) are held by specific priesthood offices (bishops, stake presidencies, etc.) These men can perform the ordinances themselves using their active keys or they can give permission to other priesthood holders to perform them. No further ordination is needed, no further conferrals of priesthood or of keys. A simple, “okay” from the one holding the active keys of that office suffices. The man performing the ordinance is then authorized because his own set of suspended keys that pertained to those ordinances are temporarily activated by the active keys of the jurisdictional priesthood officer.

Thus, it is incorrect to say that one man holds keys, while another doesn’t. Just as it is said that the twelve apostles hold all the keys in suspension, while the prophet has active keys, so the same applies to all men who have the rights to the priesthood. All men, then, are on an equal playing field, having been given everything in the first ordination.

How priesthood keys are to be used

AND when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (Matt. 10: 1)

The phrase used above, “he gave them power against unclean spirits” can also be translated as, “he gave them authority over unclean spirits.” As the authority of the priesthood are the keys, we could also say, “he gave them keys over unclean spirits.” With that in mind, let’s re-read that verse and look at the 7 verses that follow it.

AND when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them keys over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thadaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. (Matt. 10: 1-8)

“Freely ye have received; freely give” (Matt. 10:8.) The apostles had received keys to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out devils. Jesus gave them these keys without them having to pay Him and then commanded them to use the keys. They were to likewise give these keys to others without receiving payment.

This principle of generosity, of sharing or giving the keys to other men, is according to the principle of charity. This is why the scripture says that men, to whom the rights of the priesthood have been conferred, are to “let [their] bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith” (D&C 121: 45.) They are to use their active keys to activate the keys of other priesthood holders.

Priesthood keys are a test

Why is only one man’s keys active (or three men in a presidency) while the rest of the quorum’s keys are in suspension?

The reason why the Lord “gives keys” to presidencies, meaning that these presidencies can actively use the keys themselves and also use them to activate others’ keys, is so that the presidents may learn charity and become ministers and servants of all. It is to provide an opportunity for the leaders to live the principle: freely you have received, freely give.

It is also to test the presiding officials, to see if they will be stingy and keep their keys alone active, or if they will activate everyone’s keys, or if they will activate only the keys of their friends and associates, their favorites. The Lord wants to see if His presiding officers will play favoritism and nepotism.

The genius of the priesthood lies in the unequal disbursement of active and suspended keys. The “giving of keys” is not designed to be a mechanism of control, but it can be used as one, thereby providing an adequate test to all presidencies. The Lord gives active keys to the presidencies and inactive keys to the rank and file in the priesthood quorums, and then sits back and sees what His leadership sons do. Do they use the active keys to abuse and control or to minister and serve? Are they stingy with the active keys or do they use them to activate all the others?

When suspended keys should not be activated

There is really only one condition in which suspended keys should not be allowed to become active: formal disciplinary action. If a man has not had formal disciplinary action he is innocent (for all are innocent until proven guilty by two or three witnesses—the law of witnesses) and should be allowed to have his keys activated.

Every member of the church, having been baptized and confirmed has received a remission of his or her sins and is therefore presumed to be justified. Likewise, a man or boy who obtains either priesthood has already been interviewed and found worthy (righteous or justified). If a man is accused of sinning after those ordinances, it must be proved by the testimony of two or three witnesses that 1) the sin occurred and 2) that the man is unrepentant. If all those conditions are met, a judgment occurs. However, if not all of the conditions are met (for example, there may be only one witness or there may be no witnesses, or only hearsay, or the man confesses and repents, etc.) then he is presumed to be innocent. Because of the presumption of innocence (the guiltless or justified state) there is no reason to withhold key activation of all priests who have no judgments against them.

However, in the modern church, the law of witnesses is not always followed and men are not always presumed innocent until proven otherwise. Often, the presumption is guilty by association, by the appearance of evil, by bucking Mormon cultural norms, etc., without any evidence of actual sins being committed. In such cases, keys activation is often withheld.

Suspended keys are good for nothing

It is through use of the priesthood that men become more Christlike. When men are baptizing, confirming and performing other ordinances, the Spirit can work through them to sanctify them. Prohibiting a man who has no judgment against him from using his priesthood is priestcraft.

(Priestcraft happens when a priesthood leader sets himself up “for a light unto the world,” becoming a false Christ or false Savior. Leaders engaging in priestcraft force priesthood holders within their jurisdiction to accept and obey their leadership counsel as if it were spoken by Jesus Himself, before permitting them to use their priesthood keys.)

Impeding the work of the Lord

Those who hold active keys can use them to impede the work of the Lord by making it more difficult for men to come to the Lord. They can do this by giving additional (extra-scriptural) requirements to the commandments of God, such as the Pharisees did. Some additional requirements could be, for example:

  • Baptisms only on one day of the week, or one day of the month (for example, scheduling all pending baptisms for the stake baptism day.)
  • Specific dress required for ordinances.
  • Specific beliefs required before ordinances can be performed (creeds).
  • Specific words required for ordinances (formalism).
  • Submission tests and power plays (deal-making: “you do this to demonstrate your loyalty and I’ll let you perform the ordinance.”)

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with baptizing on any of the seven days of the week, or at any hour of the day (even in the middle of the night!), but by using the active baptismal keys to narrow down the window of time in which baptisms may be performed, the one who holds the active keys to that ordinance creates an artificial hoop that one must jump through. If one wishes to be baptized on a different day or time and the active key holder will not permit it, this creates an artificial conflict in which the person must bow to the active key holder’s wishes or be labeled a rebel (a sinner), and thus now unworthy of baptism. The artificial requirement, then, in this example, has impeded the work of the Lord.

The keys of the priesthood are flexible enough to be used in this tyrannical manner so that the active key holder (the leader) can be properly proved.

Graph of current view of priesthood keys

The standard view of the priesthood keys (the divine right of prophets and presidencies) creates a pyramidal church hierarchy with one man at the top, fourteen men below him, multiple presidencies below them, and the vast multitude of quorum members at the bottom. Each level is subordinate to the ones above it, the top level being subordinate to no one but God.

In the divine right of prophets and presidencies, all priesthood holders are dependent upon the prophet and 14 apostles. No one holds all the keys except them, so, should the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve suddenly die, those keys go down to the grave with them, never again to be restored, unless God sends more angels. This organization, then, has a weak link at the top. Remove the top and everything else crumbles. Also, the presidencies “serve” the quorums by ruling them, or telling them what to do. This type of “service” is based on the Gentile kingdoms.

Graph of alternate view of priesthood keys

When a priesthood key is “given” in conjunction with a presidency, what is actually given is the right to use the keys of that presidency that are already inherent in the priesthood (for the priesthood itself already holds all the keys to preside) and to use the keys to activate, or take out of suspension, the keys held by quorum members in the jurisdiction of the presidency.

This alternate view creates an inverted pyramidal church hierarchy. The president serves the quorum by using his active keys to empower the quorum, meaning to activate the suspended keys of the quorum. He then empowers the quorum so that they can use their priesthood more fully.

As the graph shows, God, the prophet, and the apostles are the foundation of the priesthood, being below all and supporting all, like a building. Because every priesthood holder holds all the keys, some active, some suspended, God can call any one of His priesthood bearing sons to fill any position of this divine edifice. It is simply a matter of activating the keys inherit in the priesthood. There is no way weak link to such an organization because even if the prophet and apostles die suddenly, other priesthood holders can fill their place and every quorum and presidency can be reformed.

A priesthood machine

The priesthood is designed on a stacked, radial pattern, like spoked wheels stacked one on top of the other, their central axes connected. Each wheel of the machine is a quorum. The central point of a wheel is the one with active quorum keys, the quorum presidency. The connection between the axes is how keys are delegated from presidency to presidency. The spokes are quorum members who have suspended quorum keys. As long as the quorum members’ keys remain suspended, the wheels don’t turn and the priesthood machine comes to a grinding halt.

The priesthood in motion

Once the central point activates the suspended keys of the quorum, the wheel starts to turn. The priesthood begins to operate with authority (keys) and becomes useful in creating divine motion.

Priesthood is useless without activated keys

In the above illustrations, each stacked wheel is aligned at the central point. If we could see all the wheels (quorums) of the priesthood, we would notice that bottom-most wheel is the First Presidency. The wheel on top of that would be the Quorum of the Twelve. Etc. The bottom-most central point (the prophet) activates the keys of (delegates keys to) the central points above him (the presidencies) and the presidencies are supposed to use them to activate the keys of the spokes of their wheels. In an ideal situation, all of these stacked wheels would be turning, all keys activated. However, our situation is far from ideal and turning wheels may be few and far between.

On top of the gears of the priesthood machinery are the members of the kingdom, who benefit from all this priesthood service. Once again, the priesthood is seen as an inverted pyramid, or inverted hierarchy.

An example of activated quorum keys

The man who baptized Wilford Woodruff was, apparently, a mere member of an elder’s quorum, not an elder’s quorum president, not a set-apart missionary, just a rank and file quorum member. Nevertheless, it appears that back then, the quorum member keys were activated and they were free to use them to further the work of the Lord. Here is the account:

On December 29, 1833, Wilford Woodruff finally heard the gospel from authorized servants of God. He recounted: “For the first time in my life, I saw an Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That was Zera Pulsipher. He told me that he was inspired of the Lord. He was threshing grain in his barn when the voice of the Lord came to him and told him to arise and go to the north, the Lord had business for him there. He called upon Brother [Elijah] Cheney, his neighbor and a member of the Church. They traveled sixty miles on foot…in deep snow, and the first place they felt impressed to call upon was the house of my brother and myself. They went into the house and talked with my brother’s wife, and they told her who they were and what their business was. They told her that they were moved upon to go to the north, and they never felt impressed to stop anywhere until they came to that house. When they told her their principles, she said her husband and her brother-in-law both were men who believed those principles, and they had prayed for them for years. They appointed a meeting in the schoolhouse upon our farm.

“I came home in the evening, and my sister-in-law told me of this meeting. I had been drawing logs from the shores of Lake Ontario (I was in the lumber business), and I turned out my horses, did not stop to eat anything, and went to the meeting. I found the house and the dooryard filled with people. I listened for the first time in my life to a Gospel sermon as taught by the Elders of this Church. It was what I had sought for from my boyhood up. I invited the men home with me. I borrowed the Book of Mormon, and sat up all that night and read. In the morning I told Brother Pulsipher I wanted to be baptized. I had a testimony for myself that those principles were true. Myself and my brother…went forth and were baptized—the two first in that county.”

Elder Pulsipher baptized Wilford Woodruff in a creek on December 31, 1833, and confirmed him on that same day. Three days later, Wilford Woodruff received the Aaronic Priesthood and was ordained to the office of teacher. This was the beginning of a lifelong ministry in the Lord’s service. Looking back on that day, he said, “My mission immediately commenced.”  (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, 2004, pgs. 37-38.)


A second set of keys

THERE are, in the church, two priesthoods, namely, the Melchizedek and Aaronic, including the Levitical Priesthood. Why the first is called the Melchizedek Priesthood is because Melchizedek was such a great high priest. Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God. But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood. (D&C 107: 1-4)

Notice that it was the church—not God, not the priests (which is a subset of the church), but the membership of the church itself—that changed the name of that order of priesthood. Modern LDS might find it a little strange that ancient church members were telling priesthood holders what to call their priesthood, yet there it is in our scriptures. And there is no indication that they sinned in the practice. So, we could ask, “By what authority did the church change the name of the priesthood?” That is the $64,000 question.

As explained previously, authority and keys are synonymous. In the scriptures, they mean and are the same thing. So, when we ask, “By what authority?” it means the same as asking, “By what keys?”

One thing is certain, the keys used by the church to change the name of the priesthood were not the keys of the priesthood. Only the men of the church who possess priesthood hold priesthood keys. Every other baptized member is without priesthood keys. That includes all the females, as well as all the males who have not yet had priesthood conferred upon them. The entire group of baptized and confirmed people, who make up the church of God, have received a set of keys separate and distinct from the keys of the priesthood.

The keys of the church

Hearken, O ye people of my church, to whom the kingdom has been given; (D&C 45: 1)

Lift up your hearts and rejoice, for unto you the kingdom, or in other words, the keys of the church have been given. Even so. Amen. (D&C 42: 69)

The people of the Lord’s church have been given the kingdom, which is defined as the keys of the church. Contrary to what the footnote to “keys of the church” in D&C 42: 69 and also the Triple Combination Index would have you believe, the keys of the church are not synonymous with the keys of the priesthood, but are a second set of keys given to every single church member, whether they possess priesthood or not.

The law of common consent

Church keys are exercised or manifested through the law of common consent, which in turn is based on the majority principle. This means that the people of the church vote on issues and whatever the majority decides, goes. This is known as the voice of the people.

All things to be done by common consent

And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen. (D&C 26: 2)

For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith. (D&C 28: 13)

I ought not to harrow up in my desires, the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto them according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction. (Alma 29: 4)

And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. (1 Samuel 8: 7)

Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people. (Mosiah 29: 26)

From the above scriptures we learn that in the church, the keys of the priesthood are subject to the keys of the church, and not vice versa. This is why we find the Lord commanding his prophet Samuel, who possessed a fulness of active priesthood keys, to obey the will of the people in all things. This is why we find the seer-king Mosiah commanding his people to make it a law among the people that only the majority decisions will stand. And why we find the seer Alma explaining that even God Himself is not exempt from this law, that God Himself gives whatever men truly desire to them, regardless of what it is. And finally, it is why we find the Lord commanding and explaining to His church that every church decision absolutely must be done by common consent.

Lord upholds servants only if there is common consent

Now, I say unto you, my friends, let my servant Sidney Rigdon go on his journey, and make haste, and also proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the gospel of salvation, as I shall give him utterance; and by your prayer of faith with one consent I will uphold him. (D&C 93: 51)

The principle is that the servants (those who hold priesthood) must hearken to their masters (the church), whom they serve. If the people say RIGHT and a prophet says LEFT, but then the prophet forces a LEFT upon the people, he transgresses because the Lord will only uphold (sustain) a prophet (or any other servant-minister) if there is common consent among the people. If the church withdraws its consent at any point, the Lord ceases to uphold the servant. Even if the servant has been obedient to the Lord in all things and is righteous, and it is the church that is wicked (which is the reverse of how it normally is), if the servant attempts to assert his authority over them (which the church has removed), he transgresses the law and the Spirit leaves him.

The consent of the governed

It all comes down to a principle known as the consent of the governed. This principle can be defined in the following way:

The Consent of the Governed means “that nothing the leader/ruler (king, pope, prophet, etc.) does is legitimate unless the people consent to it.”

The consent of the governed is a true principle that invalidates all divine right theories. Any king, pope, prophet, priest, president, leader, or ruler that claims legitimacy based upon divine approval, regardless of what the people say or without consulting the people, is a liar inspired by the devil. This is because God Himself recognizes the heavenly principle of the consent of the governed. In fact, He is the Author of it. In a word, He has termed it agency. A war in heaven was fought over whether this principle would continue to exist, or be replaced by a divine right doctrine. That war continues here on earth. Currently, the principle is still firmly in place, both in heaven and in the scriptures of the church of God. Legitimacy, then, is determined only by the people, not by God.

Unrighteous dominion

Unrighteous dominion is dominion without the consent of the governed.

If the Lord attempts to assert dominion without the consent of the governed, He engages in unrighteous dominion. The same applies to the servants of the Lord.

Why? Because the Lord’s authority is only legitimate with the consent of the governed (His creations). The instant that consent is ignored or withdrawn, the Lord no longer has authority nor power over those people, nor do His servants. The Lord’s almighty power is called agency, and consists of the agencies of everything He has created.

His dominion is without compulsory means, meaning that all things obey Him because they want to obey Him, not because they have to or are forced to. His almighty power comes from their combined agencies, freely and voluntarily obeying Him. Were He ever to try to force obedience upon any of His creations, He would lose respect and honor in the eyes of everything with agency (the created Universe) and would cease to be God.

Therefore, the priesthood cannot be used without the consent of those it is intended to serve. It is their agency that authorizes the priesthood, both ordinations and licenses.

Two sets of keys

There are, then, in effect, two sets of keys. There are the keys of the priesthood which come from the Lord and which are kind of like the Lord’s own personal agency. Then there are the keys of the church, which also come from the Lord, but which are sort of like the personal agencies of each member of the church. In the beginning, the Lord gave to us our agency and in like manner, both sets of keys come from Him, nevertheless, one set represents His Own Person, while the other set represents us.

Just as one man can’t fire a nuclear-armed missile because it requires two men with two sets of keys, which is a fail-safe mechanism, so both church and priesthood keys are needed to get anything done. The Lord’s keys of the priesthood are recognized by the entire Universe. Nevertheless, they only work with the keys, or say so, of the church they were designed to serve. If the church does not give its say so, or withdraws its consent, the Lord’s keys are powerless, for the Lord cannot override agency or He ceases to be God.

Those who obtain priesthood must likewise make sure that the agency of those they serve is never abridged in any way. If so, the priesthood keys of both prophet and presidencies become illegitimate.

Both sets are needed

Legitimate churches of Christ must possess both sets of keys. Once an understanding of the double set of keys is obtained, discernment among the Christian churches becomes fairly easy. For example, Roman Catholicism claims to possess the keys of the priesthood from Peter, nevertheless, they possess no keys of the church, for their priesthood does not operate by the common consent of their members. Therefore, the Roman Catholic Church is not a legitimate church of Christ and has not been legitimate for more than a thousand years, theirs being a false priesthood.

The breakaways from Catholicism, the Protestants, although restoring the keys of the church through the law of common consent, lack the keys of the priesthood. In the case of the Restoration churches, only the main body (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) possesses to this day, both sets of keys. All of the splinter groups that have broken off from the main body since the days of Joseph Smith to now have been a minority of members, meaning that they did not constitute “the voice of the people.” The keys of the church are only found with “the voice of the people,” therefore, all splinter groups are illegitimate because they lack one set of keys (the keys of the church.) Even though some of these groups have been properly ordained, their priesthood is invalid without the keys of the church.

The keys of the church validate the keys of the priesthood

The LDS church is not exempt from this divine principle. Although we claim that our ordinations have been correctly performed and that the keys of the priesthood have been transferred in an unbroken line, if the keys of the church are ever lost to the our church, meaning that there is no more majority voice, then the keys of our priesthoods won’t work, either. Nevertheless, while a majority voice exists in the church, through the law of common consent, even if the ordinations strayed from the prescribed, divine pattern, as long as the keys of the church continue to say those ordinations and ordinances are valid or legitimate, then the Lord recognizes them as valid or legitimate. It’s as simple as that. So, the LDS church is very safe from losing its two sets of keys, as long as the church keys are continually employed.

The divine purpose of the church keys

The keys of the church allow the members to authorize, disapprove of, or invalidate any church activity, calling, plan, institution, or plan. Members can wield these keys to add or remove scriptures from the canon, or even to reject new revelations. They can use them to modify any part of the church or priesthood organization or protocols, as demonstrated by the changing of the name of the holy priesthood.

The membership keys have near total jurisdiction over the conferral, ordination and licensing of priesthood, its keys and its ordinances. About the only thing church keys can’t do is remove priesthood from someone, as only God can do that, though using the keys members can invalidate a man’s priesthood and keys. The keys of the church, then, are the safeguard set up by the Lord to keep the priesthood in check.

Church keys balance out priesthood keys. Through the law of common consent the members are empowered to exercise their keys in either appointing or disapproving of priesthood officers and priesthood licenses. They can nullify anything coming from the priesthood, can appoint or remove officers, can revoke licenses and can even invalidate priesthood through excommunication. As priesthood holders must hearken to all things that the majority membership desires, the set of church keys, which is the kingdom that has been given to the members, is the first and chief set, even the master set.

This great authority and responsibility has been laid upon the members because they have agency, which must reign supreme. Also, this is wisdom in the Lord, for the members (the church) make up the greater part of the people (the voice of the people), while the priesthood leadership and other servants make up the lesser part, so the odds are in favor of the church choosing the right and the leadership choosing the wrong. (See Mosiah 29: 26.)

The keys of the church are absolute

I want to stress that the keys of the church, held by all baptized members, are absolute. What the members say, goes, in all things. This is why it was the church, and not the priesthood, that changed the name of the priesthood from “the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God” to simply “the Melchizedek Priesthood.” (See D&C 107: 1-4.) Even the priesthood of God is subject to the keys of the church. If church members today wanted to call the Melchizedek priesthood after some contemporary high priest, who they considered great, they have the right to do so and the priesthood leadership could do nothing about it except hearken to their word. If they did not obey the membership, they would be guilty of sedition and rebellion against their masters (the church), whom they are supposed to serve.

God uses keys to prove His people

Because the keys of the church can decide all matters, even within the priesthood itself, the church of God will be judged by Him according to how they use them. For example, members can use their keys to sustain minister-servant priesthood holders, who do not maintain power or influence by virtue of their office, or they can use them to sustain ecclesiastical abusers. If we have wicked leaders in the church, it is because we have a wicked church choosing and supporting the wicked leaders (Mosiah 11: 1-6), for the power exists to remove all wicked leaders in a heartbeat. It is as simple as raising a hand in opposition. You can’t get much simpler than that. The Lord has made it extremely easy to get rid of all the snakes in church (see 1 Nephi 17: 41) so that we are left without any excuse.

Just as priesthood keys are a test to priesthood holders, so church keys are intended to prove all church members. If the time ever comes when the keys of the church are used as a rubberstamp to approve of everything the priesthood desires to do and says, because of the titles of their offices, the keys will cease to function as a check on the priesthood. At that point, the church keys will convert the minister-servant status of priesthood into an honor of men, with celebrity status, allowing ecclesiastical abusers to take control of every priesthood office. If this were to happen on a church-wide scale, the voice of the people (the church) would be choosing iniquity, causing the judgments of God to come upon the church. (See Mosiah 29: 27.)

Israel to be led by the keys

The following verse is often misinterpreted as referring to only the priesthood keys.

Keep all the commandments and covenants by which ye are bound; and I will cause the heavens to shake for your good, and Satan shall tremble and Zion shall rejoice upon the hills and flourish; and Israel shall be saved in mine own due time; and by the keys which I have given shall they be led, and no more be confounded at all. (D&C 35: 24-25)

Israel is to be led by both sets of keys: the keys of the church and the keys of the priesthood.

Ordinations voted by church

No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church; but the presiding elders, traveling bishops, high councilors, high priests, and elders, may have the privilege of ordaining, where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called. (D&C 20: 65-66)

Exception: where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called.

Licenses voted by church

The elders are to receive their licenses from other elders, by vote of the church to which they belong, or from the conferences. Each priest, teacher, or deacon, who is ordained by a priest, may take a certificate from him at the time, which certificate, when presented to an elder, shall entitle him to a license, which shall authorize him to perform the duties of his calling, or he may receive it from a conference. (D&C 20: 63-64)

Licenses authorize a priesthood holder to perform the duty of his calling. Without a license, you can’t use your priesthood.

Licenses can be revoked

And a commandment I give unto you, that you should fill all these offices and approve of those names which I have mentioned, or else disapprove of them at my general conference; (D&C 124: 144.)

Excommunications (and priesthood invalidations) by vote of church

But he or she shall be condemned by the mouth of two witnesses; and the elders shall lay the case before the church, and the church shall lift up their hands against him or her, that they may be dealt with according to the law of God. (D&C 42: 81)

The church can vote to cast out (excommunicate) members from the congregation. If the excommunicant was a priesthood holder, their priesthood is now invalidated for that congregation. Should they continue baptizing and performing other ordinances while an excommunicant, the church would not recognize the ordinances, priesthood and priesthood keys used as valid.

Who decides?

Let’s recap. Who decides who gets the priesthood? The church, by vote.

Who decides who gets what office of the priesthood? The church, by vote.

Who decides which priesthood holder receives a license to perform the duty of his calling? The church, by vote.

The proper way to use the keys of the church

The Lord hasn’t really given any specific instruction to the church on how to use their keys. D&C 121: 34-46 is probably the best rule of thumb to use when deciding whether a man or boy should a) get the priesthood, b) should be ordained to an office, c) should receive a license, d) should have his license revoked, e) should be removed from office or f) should have his priesthood invalidated (through excommunication).

The sisters and the keys of the church

Historically, the keys of the church have always been, essentially, in the hands of baptized women and children, as their numbers have made up the “voice of the people.” During times when plural marriage was practiced, the combined female vote was overwhelmingly more numerous than its male counterpart, but even during these monogamous modern times, the women of the church still control the outcome of any vote. In any given branch, ward, stake or district of the church, the women and non priesthood-holding children routinely far outnumber the priesthood-holding men. Numbered alone, even without including children, the female members typically make up more than 51% of any sized church congregation. This means that if the females of the modern church were to vote as a block, every decision would be decided solely by them, regardless of how the combined male vote was cast. Even if the men were to vote as a block to oppose the females, they still would be powerless to stop them.

Thus, the keys of the church have been placed firmly in the hands of the women of the church. This is by divine design, just as the keys of the priesthood have been placed firmly in the hands of the men of the church.

The female human being is a highly sensitive creature; some might even say hypersensitive. She is able to detect abuse quite easily and quickly. As she lives out her life in an atmosphere of continual subjection to authority—first to her parents, then to teachers, then to government and work authorities, then to her husband—she becomes accustomed to forever having to obey someone else. As long as that person is as kindly as Christ is, her nature is happy, but the slightest abuse suffered and she becomes miserable. Nevertheless, due to societal norms, a female isn’t often able to free herself from bondage to one or another authority figure.

Her entrance into the Lord’s church through baptism, though, is designed by the Lord to be an entrance into freedom. No longer is she a second class citizen, standing behind a man, but is on equal ground with men, having equal voting rights as them, and having, together with her sisters, the combined capacity to pull down all abuse and abusers by vote. No longer need she obey by virtue of someone’s title (father, husband, police officer, teacher, elder, president, etc.), but is free to discard one’s title altogether and obey only the Christ-like ones and vote down the devilish.

Because women often get the brunt of the abuse that goes around by tyrannical men, and because they are usually the first ones to detect it, the Lord has given the keys of the church to the sisters, so that finally the women are empowered to rein it in.

How ecclesiastical abusers deal with the sisters

The tremendous power of the keys of the church, wielded by the sisters as a voting block to end ecclesiastical tyranny, or merely to vote their conscience, even if it contradicts the leadership position, presents an insurmountable obstacle to would-be priesthood tyrants. There simply is no way around it. If the sisters wake up to the existence of the keys of the church and exercise their voting power, leadership positions lose all their awesome titular authority, terror and clout. The strategy, then, used by leaders, is to talk only of the keys of the priesthood and to never mention the keys of the church. Because no one can exercise a right they don’t know they have, as long as the sisters remain ignorant of this authority, given to them by the Lord, men are free to rule in the church as priest-king tyrants.

Many men believe that women scriptorians are few and far between and leaders know that even those who regularly study their scriptures will often go to their priesthood leadership for answers on scriptural questions. This presents a wonderful opportunity for a leader to give an answer that solidifies his own authority and her need to obey and sustain him, as well as her need to sustain her other leaders. In fact, the leadership has gotten to the point where they hardly use the word “vote” any more. The act of raising a hand for (not against) is now widely called “sustaining”—(while raising one’s hand against is called “not sustaining”)—and it is continuously taught that it is our duty to sustain our leaders (presumably by raising our hands for them). This means that a woman who raises a hand in opposition is not “sustaining her leader,” therefore, she must be sinning.

By getting away from the word “vote,” which has no stigma if you vote your conscience, for or against, and by using the word “sustain,” the leadership has invented a new sin and multiplied guilt and fear. Now everyone is afraid to exercise his or her church keys and the priesthood is free to engage in ecclesiastical abuse with nothing to hinder its progress.

Hopefully, with this article, the word will get out to the sisters that they need not fear voting their conscience. In fact, I’ll speak directing to you sisters:

Sustaining your leaders and voting in church are two different things. You are to vote your conscience and then, after the vote is counted, whoever is voted in is the person you sustain, meaning that your prayers and support should go out to that person. Raising your hand for any measure proposed by a leader is not sustaining him or her. Raising your hand for or against any measure proposed by a leader is voting. If the measure passes, it means that the voice of the people desired it to pass. You then sustain that measure or that person with prayers, faith and support, not because you are sustaining the person or measure (which, perhaps, you disagreed with), but because you sustain the voice of the people, who are the true leaders.

The same principle applies in life outside of church. Let’s say that there are two candidates for Police Chief and you vote for candidate #1. But after the vote is counted, the voice of the people elects candidate #2. Do you just ignore the new Police Chief’s authority and disregard his commands after he’s been sworn in because you didn’t vote for him? No, instead, you prayer for him and sustain him in his office, because you respect the voice of the people.

To use another example, consider the pre-existent vote that took place, where some went with Jesus and others went with Lucifer. Jesus had the voice of the people with him, yet Lucifer and those who voted for him were not considered sinners for voting against Jesus. It was only when they rebelled against the voting outcome (against the voice of the people) that they ran into trouble and were cast out of heaven.

In like manner, voting one’s conscience is no sin in the eyes of God. It is rebellion against the voice of the people that brings swift divine judgment. When your leaders say to you that you need to “sustain your leaders,” or if they ask you if you “sustain your leaders,” it may be wise to ask yourself who are your leaders? In principle, the only mortal leaders we are commanded to sustain or “hearken to in all things” are the people’s voice, meaning the majority vote of the membership. If you do this, you are in principle and in fact, sustaining your leaders.

So, vote your mind and conscience without fear of repercussions, for there are none. And use your God-given, innate ability to detect tyrants to discover them and vote them out using your keys.


Spektator’s questions answered

Spektator asked me three questions, which I decided to answer in this post.

Can a man who has ‘lost’ his priesthood through unrighteous dominion [be] able to ordain others? I have to think that it is not in keeping with God’s will that I can pass the priesthood on to another if I have not met the qualifications myself.

Secondly, Alma the elder received his ‘priesthood’ directly from God (Alma 18). Does God have the right to bestow the priesthood to whom He desires? I believe he does, but this does negate that absolute need for priesthood lineage.

Finally, does the Gentile Church really dispose of the priesthood when the scroll rolls? I go back to the blessing that Israel gave Ephraim – that he would be a multitude of nations – as an indication that we are both Gentiles and of the house of Ephraim. Your thoughts? (Spek’s three questions)

Answer to question #1

Can a man who has ‘lost’ his priesthood through unrighteous dominion [be] able to ordain others? I have to think that it is not in keeping with God’s will that I can pass the priesthood on to another if I have not met the qualifications myself. (Spek’s 1st question)

A man who has ‘lost’ his priesthood through unrighteous dominion can ordain others if he is authorized by the keys of the church, which are held by the people of the church and are activated by the voice of the people through the law of common consent. God’s will controls the powers of heaven aspect of priesthood, which is contingent on qualifications of the priesthood holder, but His will does not supercede the will of His people. As it is the will of God that the voice of the people is hearkened to, if the voice of the people say an ordination is valid, it is valid.

Answer to question #2

Secondly, Alma the elder received his ‘priesthood’ directly from God (Alma 18). Does God have the right to bestow the priesthood to whom He desires? I believe he does, but this does negate that absolute need for priesthood lineage. (Spek’s 2nd question)

Background on Alma the elder

In the land of Lehi-Nephi and the land of Shilom (Mosiah 9: 6), the righteous king Zeniff (Mosiah 9: 1) conferred the kingdom, just before he died (Mosiah 10: 22), upon Noah, one of his sons (Mosiah 11: 1). After becoming king, Noah turned wicked (Mosiah 11: 1-2) and caused his people to commit all manner of wickedness; of especial note is that Noah and his people began practicing polygamy with concubinage and whoredoms (Mosiah 11: 2), which was contrary to the commandment received by the prophet Lehi (Jacob 3: 5).

King Noah put down all the priests that had been consecrated by king Zeniff (which priests were after the order of Melchizedek), and consecrated new ones in their stead (also after the order of Melchizedek), prideful ones that likewise practiced polygamy with concubinage and whoredoms (Mosiah 11: 4-5, 14).

Alma the elder, priest of Noah

Alma was one of these new priests (Mosiah 24: 9). At the time of his calling, he was a young man (Mosiah 17: 2). Like the other priests, Alma’s lifestyle was one of laziness, idolatry and whoredoms. He used his priesthood to deceive the people with vain and flattering words so that they also became idolatrous (Mosiah 11: 7). His was a paid ministry, receiving his salary from the royal treasury, which was filled by a 20% direct tax laid upon the people’s possessions.

Iniquity with consent

In all of this wickedness, both Alma, the other priests and king Noah had the support of the people. The people did as king Noah and his priests did. When king Noah became a wine-bibber, the people did also (Mosiah 11: 15). There is no indication in the record of Zeniff that king Noah, Alma, and the rest of the priests did these things without the consent of the people. On the contrary, the record indicates that the people both sustained the king and his newly consecrated priests, rejoiced in their lying and flattering idolatrous doctrines, and participated in the riotous living (Mosiah 11: 14).

Enter Abinadi

Because of this iniquitous union between people and priesthood, in which there were no dissenting votes, only common consent to break the commandments of God, when the Lord sent Abinadi, a non-priest prophet, to deliver a divine message, it was looked upon as a disturbance of the peace of the people (Mosiah 11: 28). Both the people and the king were angry with Abinadi and both attempted to have him caught and killed (Mosiah 11: 26), because attempting to create discord and divisions in the people is subversive behavior and worthy of death. As further evidence, Abinadi’s non-priestly authority was even brought up (Mosiah 11: 27).

Abinadi escaped, but was sent back two years later with another message from the Lord. This time he was captured, imprisoned, publicly interrogated, judged and finally killed by fire, but not before he delivered his final message and teachings to the wicked priests and king.

Alma was among the audience of priests during this remarkable interrogation. He was astonished at Abinadi’s answers (Mosiah 12: 19) and was cut to his heart (Mosiah 13: 7). He saw Abinadi’s face shine, as did the people (Mosiah 13: 5), and was filled with wonder and amazement (Mosiah 13: 8). Although the priesthood records did not show that Abinadi possesssed priesthood, it was apparent to Alma that Abinadi spoke with authority from God, and not only that, he also spoke with visibly manifested power from God (Mosiah 13: 6.)

After Abinadi finished his speech, king Noah commanded his priests to take him “and cause that he should be put to death” (Mosiah 17: 1). Of all the priests, only Alma believed the words of Abinadi and he alone pleaded with the king to let Abinadi go in peace.

Instead, the king became even angrier and had Alma thrown out of the royal palace (Mosiah 11: 9) and then he sent his servants to find and kill him (Mosiah 17: 3), but Alma fled and hid himself. While in hiding, he wrote all the words of Abinadi (Mosiah 17: 4), then, after repenting “of his sins and iniquities,” began a private ministry among the people, in which he taught Abinadi’s words (Mosiah 18: 1-3.)

Eventually, about 204 people believed his words and he baptized them, forming a church of Christ. He then ordained 4 priests (after the order of Melchizedek) to teach the church. The church increased in size to 450 people with 9 ordained priests before they departed into the wilderness to escape king Noah’s army which he sent to destroy them.

Alma’s priesthood authority

Okay, Spek, now that we have Alma’s background laid out, I’ll answer your question.

First, let me state that I don’t believe that the scriptures support the view that Alma was an excommunicant. Mosiah 24: 9 states that Alma “was driven out before the king”, while Mosiah 17: 3 states that the king “caused that Alma should be cast out from among them, and sent his servants after him that they might slay him.” Neither of these verses strike me as a description of a formal excommunication procedure (in the modern sense.) This sounds, to me, like a forcible ejection from the palace, followed by some servants sent afterward to permanently keep Alma’s mouth shut. (In an ancient sense, this may have actually been the manner, under the law of Moses, or under a perversion of the same, to excommunicate a priest, namely, by throwing the man out and slaying him. As Alma was not killed, such an excommunication procedure was not brought to completion.)

Alma may have been removed from the palace so that a unanimous vote by the priests could take place in condemning Abinadi to death, for one dissenting vote in a capital punishment case may have nullified the procedure. The servants sent out later to slay him may have had the same purpose, that of prohibiting him from returning and casting a dissenting vote during the three days that Abinadi remained alive before a guilty verdict was passed. During this time, and afterward, while Alma remained in hiding for many days, there is no indication in the account that he was formally excommunicated (in neither a modern nor ancient sense), so I think it is fair to go under the assumption that he still retained his priesthood, being a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

But even if it is assumed that he was excommunicated, what we know of the modern priesthood shows that an excommunicated priest does not lose his priesthood, but is merely told not to use it. If and when an excommunicated priest is re-baptized, there is no re-conferral and re-ordination to the priesthood and its offices, but he is merely given a blessing in which he is told that his former covenants and privileges are restored, including his priesthood. This means that the voice of the church can invalidate an excommunicant’s priesthood for that particular church—which means that every single one of his keys goes into suspension—but has no authority to remove it. This may have been one of the reasons why Noah felt it necessary to send servants to slay Alma, so that he wouldn’t be able to use his priesthood among the people.

From the record, Alma’s priesthood lineage appears to be: from Zeniff (righteous) to Noah (righteous, then later wicked) to Alma (wicked, then later righteous).

The voice of the people supported Zeniff, so his priesthood was valid. The voice of the people also supported Noah, when Noah was righteous, so his priesthood was valid. Later, when Noah turned wicked, the voice of the people still supported him, so his priesthood remained valid. And the voice of the people supported Alma while he was wicked, up to the time he was thrown out of the palace, so his priesthood was valid until that time.

Nevertheless, Alma began a private ministry, in the which he established a church of Christ, which was separate and distinct from the church of Noah’s priests. This congregation of 204, and later of 450 people, possessed the keys of the church of Christ established by Alma, thereby validating Alma’s priesthood with their common consent. (The general population did not possess the keys of the church of Christ, for they were not a part of the church of Christ, but held to the law of Moses alone.)

So, we have a situation in which validly ordained priests after the order of Melchizedek (Zeniff and priests, Noah and priests, and Alma and priests) had established two different churches, one based upon the law of Moses alone, the other based upon the law of Moses plus the gospel of Jesus Christ. Both congregations sustained their priesthood teachers with the keys of their respective churches.

All of these priests (even the wicked ones—think back to what Lucifer said in the temple: “It is an emblem of my power and priesthoods“) had authority from God (Mosiah 18: 18), not just Alma, for they were all properly ordained and sustained by their respective congregations. The only difference was that Alma and priests also had the power of God with them (Mosiah 18: 17), for they purified their hearts and sanctified themselves before God, becoming priesthood made flesh.

So, although God does have the right to bestow priesthood upon whomever He chooses, priesthood lineage is consistently shown in the scriptures to be a necessary part of the plan of salvation, meaning that He uses an already ordained man to pass priesthood on, instead of doing it Himself. This follows the pattern and principle of “freely ye have received, freely give”, which allows an ordained man to serve his fellowmen.

Answer to question #3

Finally, does the Gentile Church really dispose of the priesthood when the scroll rolls? I go back to the blessing that Israel gave Ephraim—that he would be a multitude of nations—as an indication that we are both Gentiles and of the house of Ephraim. Your thoughts? (Spek’s 3rd question)

Yes. The Gentile Church will lose its priesthood in a couple of ways, the first being that they will lose the keys given to them.

The break up of the church and the loss of the keys

The loss of these keys appears to be connected with the break up of the church. (See 3 Ne. 6: 14.) At some point in the future, the united and centralized church of God (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) will become separate churches led by priests. (See 2 Nephi 28.) These priests will be after the order of Melchizedek, having previously been ordained high priests holding the calling of stake president in the former LDS Church. Each former stake president (now priest) will be autonomous, meaning that each one will preside over a separate and distinct Mormon church, not affiliated with any of the other Mormon churches of the broken-up LDS Church. When this prophecy is fulfilled, these priests will contend with the other priests who presided over the other former LDS Church stakes, for primacy and supremacy. Each will lift himself up as the new leader of the church, but none of them will gain the voice of the church (majority vote.) The corporate LDS Church will cease to exist, to be replaced by a plurality of Mormon churches, most of which will divide along former stake boundaries. Within some of the stake-like churches, there may be men who were bishops of wards (or presidents of temples) when the LDS Church broke up that will attempt to go-it-alone. They will form their own, smaller, ward-like churches, but most congregations will be as large as stakes were, for there will be the feeling that there is safety in numbers. Nephi’s prophecy applies to these bishops and temple presidents, as well, for they are also ordained priests after the order of Melchizedek. After the break up of the LDS Church, both the stake presidents and the few lone bishops will drop the titles stake president and bishop, which pertained to the former LDS Church, and call themselves simply priests, and they will drop the titles stake and ward and call their congregations churches, thus fulfilling Nephi’s prophecy to the very letter.

An earthquake will break up the church

The reason for the break up appears to be from an earthquake during some future general conference in which the general authorities of the church will be killed by a collapsing conference center. This will leave the affairs of the church in the hands of the stake presidents, who will begin bickering as to how to re-assemble the corporate and ecclesiastical mess and will end up going their separate ways. These men will divide up the assets of the corporate church among themselves, which include meeting houses, temples and businesses. None of these priests will be able to obtain a majority vote in their favor and the membership of the church will be divided among stake-like churches.

The Wasatch Fault is the largest, normal vertical fault in the world. It is also the likeliest fault to have a large, catastrophic earthquake of all the known faults within the interior of the United States. A big earthquake is expected to occur sometime in the next 50 years. It runs 240 miles long and passes through the Salt Lake region, near the cites of Nephi, Salt Lake City, Brigham City, Provo, etc. Almost 75% of Utah’s population lives near this fault. Liquefaction is also of grave concern for this area. Liquefaction is when the ground becomes mixed with water and acts like a liquid, instead of like a solid, kind of like quick sand. (Remember the Savior’s warning about houses built on sand falling.) When liquefaction occurs during an earthquake, it is the largest, most massive buildings that fall or sink quickest into the earth. Keep in mind that the conference center is gargantuan.

Each of the segments that make up the Wasatch Fault is capable of delivering around a 7.1 magnitude earthquake. That’s fairly large, but not large enough to destroy the conference center, which was built to withstand such seismic shaking. However, it may be that the earthquake that downs the center will simultaneously trigger another 7.1 earthquake in one (or more) of the surrounding segments, causing a ripple effect of catastrophic devastation, like multiple pebbles thrown onto a still water’s surface. The building, faced with two (or more) simultaneous 7+ magnitude earthquakes, their waves coming from different directions and intersecting, would be subjected to an unknown, but very large seismic magnitude. It is unlikely the conference center engineers constructed it with such a scenario in mind.

Both sets of keys will be lost

The loss of the keys of the priesthood occurs because the quorums of the First Presidency, the Twelve Apostles and the Seventy will cease to exist, due to the deaths of their quorum members, leaving only the active keys used among the stakes. As there will be no unity among the priests, they will not be able to come to any agreement concerning the reconstitution of the general authority offices; therefore, the GA quorums will remain defunct.

The loss of the keys of the church will occur because no priest will be supported by the voice of the people (a majority). Only minority factions will be left to support this or that priest. Without the keys of the church functioning, the remaining keys of the priesthood will be invalid, for a majority of the membership will be against all other Mormon church priest leaders, invalidating their priesthood.

(Because stakes don’t have jurisdiction over other stakes, they cannot excommunicate members from other stakes or otherwise remove the names of the people residing in other stakes from the church rolls. For this reason, although the membership found outside of any of these churches will not be considered by them as bona fide members of the Lord’s church, technically they will still be on the records of one of these churches as baptized and confirmed people and will constitute a majority voice against those found within the church in question. The law of common consent, then, despite multiple apostate Mormon churches, will apply across the board to all churches, as if they were still one church. Nevertheless, the several churches inability or unwillingness to come to any agreement will be the death toll of the keys of the church, which must be wielded by a majority.)

This situation, then, will cause a complete loss of both Melchizedek and Aaronic Priesthoods, meaning that no one Mormon church will recognize the priesthood of any other Mormon church, necessitating that the Lord step in and set things right (the great and marvelous work.) This second act of the Lord, though, will be accompanied by power (meaning the working of miracles.) The priests of these churches, seeking to keep their members, will then counsel them to not believe in the miracles that will be reported and witnessed by many people. They will use the former LDS Church assets they received in the break-up of the church to enrich themselves and their congregations, and will use their control of a temple (if a priest was lucky enough to gain control of one) and their meetinghouses as perks of membership in their particular Mormon church to attract new members and keep membership numbers high. Even the permissiveness of iniquity will be a drawing point, for, if you are taught that you can sin as much as you want and still be saved, attending church becomes a joy. The selling point of the only true priesthood will also keep members from straying and following “new prophets” among the people. Thus, these Mormon churches will quickly spiral down into all manner of apostate wickedness as detailed by Nephi’s prophecy.

Ammonihah redux

So, the LDS Church will be broken up after the fashion of the city of Ammonihah. Just as the Ammonihahites prided themselves at how invincible they were, only to end up being destroyed in one day, so the church will be broken up in one day’s time. An earthquake will be used because this is what earthquakes do best: break things apart. It will happen as a whirlwind (tornado), without warning and suddenly, taking virtually everyone, both priesthood and membership, by surprise. (Well, except for those who read this article…)

How the broken up churches will make money

Separate, individual churches, led by a priest, will no longer have access to the general church funds, as there won’t be any more general church, only separate and distinct Mormon apostate churches. Funding, then, will be of principle concern for the priests. A paid clergy will arise, ecclesiastical funding drives will occur, and the Mormon apostate churches will more closely resemble their apostate Christian church counterparts.

Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins. (Mormon 8: 32)

This doctrine of forgiving sins for money will introduce a plague of wickedness into the churches. As the break up will occur during an economic depression and work will be scarce, the churches will be used by the priests “to get gain”, for all want salvation, even in economic hard times. Worthiness will no longer be an issue for baptism, confirmation, entrance to the temple or ordination to the priesthood. Only how much money you have will be the question asked. All manner of iniquity will be acceptable to these churches, in their attempt to get gain. In fact, iniquity will be celebrated and even encouraged, for the more iniquity there is, the more money there is to be made.

Prophecy of no more Gentile stakes will be fulfilled

The law of tithing will no longer be observed according to revelation (D&C 119 and 120) and the prophecy found in D&C 119: 6-7 will be fulfilled for the scattered churches (which were formerly called stakes in the LDS Church), namely, that these churches will cease to be “stakes of Zion”.

And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you. And this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen. (D&C 119: 6-7)

Thus, Isaiah’s prophecy concerning the stakes never being removed, had view of the stakes established by the Indians, after the city of Zion is built, and not of the Gentile stakes established during the foundation movement begun by Joseph Smith.

Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. (Isa. 33: 20)

Name changes

No longer called (legally) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which will be a dissolved corporation, the apostate Mormon churches will bear some other name, to distinguish themselves from the other apostate Mormon churches, bringing into view the curious passage in 3 Nephi 27: 1-12 about the name of the Lord’s church. This same Book of Mormon passage will be quoted to the apostate Mormon churches who will bear various and sundry names, including the names of men, by the prophets and missionaries bearing the new scriptures and fulness of the gospel of the Father. In other words, just as we LDS use the Bible of the Gentiles to preach to the Gentiles, so the new missionaries will use the Book of Mormon of the Mormons to preach to the apostate Gentile Mormon churches.

The blood of saints will be spilled

Apostate Mormon churches will kill or seek to kill the saints residing within their congregations. They will also kill or seek to kill prophets of God and missionaries sent to them, repeating the history of the Nephites after their own church of God had broken up (see 3 Ne. 6: 14.)

And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people…Now there were many of the people who were exceedingly angry because of those who testified of these things; and those who were angry were chieflythey who had been high priests…Now there was no …high priest that could have power to condemn any one to death save their condemnation was signed by the governor of the land. Now there were many of those who testified of the things pertaining to Christ who testified boldly, who were taken and put to death secretly by the judges, that the knowledge of their death came not unto the governor of the land until after their death. (3 Ne. 6: 20-23)

In like fashion, the priests of the broken up Mormon churches, who had been high priests (stake presidents) in the unified Church, will become angry with the new preachers of righteousness and seek to kill them.

This is one of the tipping points (the death of saints, prophets and missionaries) that will cause the Indians to go through them and wipe them off the face of the earth. The broken up Mormon churches will be the most wicked people on the planet. They will also be the most prideful of all the Gentiles. Thus, they will receive the judgment of God first.

The fulness of the gospel of the Father includes, among other things, abundant manifestations of the power of God in the form of the gifts of the Spirit. When the broken up Mormon churches reject the fulness, they will be rejecting both new scriptures that will come forth, new prophets sent by the Lord, and also abundant miracles that will witness to the truthfulness of the message of the new scriptures and prophets. They will be left without excuse and will know with a surety that it’s all true, but will still deny and reject it. The saints in their congregations who repent and accept the fulness will be cast out or slain as troublemakers, inciting the anger of the Lord. The Indians will then be let loose upon the Mormon Gentiles, killing all those who refuse to be numbered Indians. (The saints, or repentant Gentile Mormons, who are cast out will go to the Indians and become numbered with them, becoming part of that Manassehite tribe.) These Manassehite Indians will then build the city of Zion, assisted by the Ephraimite Gentile Mormons who have become numbered with them. With the massacre of the unrepentant Gentile Mormons by the Indians, the church of the lamb of God (as it will then be called) will no longer be led by Ephraim, but by Manasseh. A Josephite prophet will be a principal player in all of this.

And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy. Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren. (2 Nephi 3: 22-24)

The fulfillment of 3 Nephi 16: 10-15

And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel. And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father. But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16: 10-15)

The Gentiles spoken of in this scripture are the Mormon Gentiles. Not the Mormon Gentiles of today, but the ones who will be the members of the broken up Mormon churches. These people “shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth,” meaning that they will be the most wicked of all the Gentiles. This is a subset of the Gentile population and is defined as they who are considered “salt that hath lost its savor,” meaning baptized members of the Lord’s church. These wicked Mormons in these wicked, broken up Mormon churches, will both sin against the gospel of the Father, which they received through Joseph Smith AND reject the fulness of the gospel of the Father, which arrives later, after the break up of the LDS Church.

The Mormon Gentiles who repent will become numbered among the Indians (Manassehites) and survive the Indian invasion. The unrepentant Mormon Gentiles, though, will get slaughtered, and thus, their priesthood and its lineage will be wiped out. It is the prophetic plan to completely remove the priesthood from the Gentiles, in the day of restoration of the tribes of Israel, so that only Israel, and those who are numbered among Israel, possess priesthood.

A repeat of the Zoramites

Alma 31 contains a description of the Zoramites. The broken up Mormon churches will evolve into Zoramites and begin treating the poor among them in much the same way as the Zoramites did. This is another reason why the Lord will come out against them in His anger.

How the Zoramites treated the poor

And it came to pass that after much labor among them, they began to have success among the poor class of people; for behold, they were cast out of the synagogues because of the coarseness of their apparel—therefore they were not permitted to enter into their synagogues to worship God, being esteemed as filthiness; therefore they were poor; yea, they were esteemed by their brethren as dross; therefore they were poor as to things of the world; and also they were poor in heart…And they came unto Alma; and the one who was the foremost among them said unto him: Behold, what shall these my brethren do, for they are despised of all men because of their poverty, yea, and more especially by our priests; for they have cast us out of our synagogues which we have labored abundantly to build with our own hands; and they have cast us out because of our exceeding poverty; and we have no place to worship our God; and behold, what shall we do? (Alma 32: 2-3, 5)

Broken up Mormon churches will lack charity

The description of charity is the OPPOSITE of how the broken up Mormon churches will treat the poor:

And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. (Moro. 7: 45)

Charity suffers long, is kind, and is not easily provoked, but the broken up Mormon churches will have strifes, malice and persecutions:

And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts. (Morm. 8: 36)

Charity does not envy, yet the broken up Mormon churches will envy:

Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches. (Morm. 8: 28)

Charity is not puffed up, yet the broken up Mormon churches will be puffed up:

Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up. (2 Ne. 28: 12)

Charity does not seek her own, yet the broken up Mormon churches will not notice any who are not rich and healthy like themselves:

Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not? (Morm. 8: 39)

Charity does not rejoice in iniquity, yet the broken up Mormon churches will very literally rejoice in iniquity:

Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity. (Morm. 8: 31)

Isaiah’s prophecy of the broken up Mormon churches

The prophecy found in Isaiah chapter 3 will be re-applied to the broken up Mormon churches: the Gentile hypocrites who profess to know the Lord. Like the Israelites before them, their prophet (vs. 2) will be taken away (vs. 1) by the Lord, they will be oppressed by their neighbors (vs. 5), including the neighboring Mormon churches, and behave proudly (vs. 5.) They will seek for a ruler of their broken up churches (vs. 6-7) because the unified church will now be ruined (vs. 6, 8.) Their wickedness will openly and publicly provoke the Lord (vs. 8 ) because they will “declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not” (vs. 9.)

Isaiah’s description of the broken up Mormon churches—they grind upon the faces of the poor:

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people. The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses. What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord God of hosts. (Isa. 3: 12-15)

Isaiah’s description of the rich women of the broken up Mormon churches and the judgment of God upon them:

Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts. In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, the chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, the bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, the rings, and nose jewels, the changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, the glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails. And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty. Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war. And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground. (Isa. 3: 16-26)

The Indians will wipe out the wicked men of the wicked Gentile Mormon churches, leaving women desolate and desperate to marry any husband, even if they have to share him with other women (in polygamy.)

Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war. (Isa. 3: 25)

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. (Isa. 4: 1)

The only ones left alive after the Indians destroy the wicked among the wicked Gentile Mormon churches will be the penitent. These will become numbered among the Indians.

And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: (Isa. 4: 3)

But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel. (3 Ne. 16: 13)

Earthquake imagery

The scriptures have a lot of earthquake imagery in them, using words such as “tumble, shake, disturb, quake, earthquake, tremble, broken up, division,” etc. Let’s review:

Wicked Churches Must Shake

But it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments but build up churches unto themselves to get gain, yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devil—yea, verily, verily, I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble and shake to the center. (D&C 10: 56)

For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet. (1 Ne. 22: 23)

For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed. (D&C 132: 14)

Voice of Angel Shakes the Earth

Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder. (1 Ne. 17: 45)

And as I said unto you, as they were going about rebelling against God, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto them; and he descended as it were in a cloud; and he spake as it were with a voice of thunder, which caused the earth to shake upon which they stood;…And now behold, can ye dispute the power of God? For behold, doth not my voice shake the earth? And can ye not also behold me before you? And I am sent from God…And now Alma and those that were with him fell again to the earth, for great was their astonishment; for with their own eyes they had beheld an angel of the Lord; and his voice was as thunder, which shook the earth; and they knew that there was nothing save the power of God that could shake the earth and cause it to tremble as though it would part asunder. (Mosiah 27: 11, 15, 18)

But behold, the Lord in his great mercy sent his angel to declare unto me that I must stop the work of destruction among his people; yea, and I have seen an angel face to face, and he spake with me, and his vice was as thunder, and it shook the whole earth. (Alma 38: 7)

Voice of God Shakes the Earth

For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God. Yea, behold at his voice do the hills and the mountains tremble and quake. And by the power of his voice they are broken up, and become smooth, yea, even like unto a valley. Yea, by the power of his voice doth the whole earth shake; yea, by the power of his voice, do the foundations rock, even to the very center. Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved. (Helaman 12: 8-13)

And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire. (Ether 4: 9)

Great and Abominable Church and Kingdom of Devil to Fall

But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof. For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish; (2 Ne. 28: 18-19)

The Lord Will Cause a Great Division

For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire. (2 Ne. 30: 10)

The First Division Is Among the Church

And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord. (3 Ne. 6: 14)

The Second Division Is Among Everyone Else

And the people were divided one against another; and they did separate one from another into tribes, every man according to his family and his kindred and friends; and thus they did destroy the government of the land. And it came to pass in the thirty and first year that they were divided into tribes, every man according to his family, kindred and friends; nevertheless they had come to an agreement that they would not go to war one with another; but they were not united as to their laws, and their manner of government, for they were established according to the minds of those who were their chiefs and their leaders. But they did establish very strict laws that one tribe should not trespass against another, insomuch that in some degree they had peace in the land; nevertheless, their hearts were turned from the Lord their God, and they did stone the prophets and did cast them out from among them. (3 Ne. 7: 2, 14)

The House Built on Sand

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matt. 7: 24-27)

Therefore, whoso heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock—and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them not shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand—and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell, and great was the fall of it. (3 Ne. 14: 24-27)

But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation; and when the rain descends, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon them, they shall fall, and the gates of hell are ready open to receive them. (3 Ne. 18: 13)

And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall. (2 Ne. 28: 28)

The Great and Spacious Building Will Fall

And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth. And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit. And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. And now I, Nephi, do not speak all the words of my father. But, to be short in writing, behold, he saw other multitudes pressing forward; and they came and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press their way forward, continually holding fast to the rod of iron, until they came forth and fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree. And he also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building. And it came to pass that many were drowned in the depths of the fountain; and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads. And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not. (1 Ne. 8: 26-33)

And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (1 Ne. 11: 35-36)

And the large and spacious building, which thy father saw, is vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men. And a great and a terrible gulf divideth them; yea, even the word of the justice of the Eternal God, and the Messiah who is the Lamb of God, of whom the Holy Ghost beareth record, from the beginning of the world until this time, and from this time henceforth and forever. (1 Ne. 12: 18)

A conditional promise that house will not be broken up if the United Order obeys the Lord (and we all know what happened…)

I give unto you this privilege, this once; and behold, if you proceed to do the things which I have laid before you, according to my commandments, all these things are mine, and ye are my stewards, and the master will not suffer his house to be broken up. Even so. Amen. (D&C 104: 86)

The reason for the earthquake

But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts. But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof. For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish; for behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good. And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance. Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment. (2 Ne. 28: 17-23; see especially 18-19, in red bold type.)

The great and abominable church must tumble to the earth and great must be the fall thereof, for the kingdom of the devil must shake. Why? So that they which belong to it are stirred up to repentance. If the earthquake doesn’t happen, according to its timetable, they will not be stirred up to repentance. And if they are not stirred up to repentance, the devil will grasp them. And if the devil grasps them they will be stirred up (by the devil) to anger and perish. What will they be stirred up to anger against? The new prophets, the new scriptures and the fulness of the gospel of the Father which will be sent to them, according to the Lord’s timetable. The “for behold, at that day” phrase, in bold type above, signals the day when the fulness of the gospel of the Father is sent to them and rejected by the wicked among them (the vast majority). Fortunately, though, some will repent due to the kingdom of the devil shaking, allowing these repentant persons who now find themselves within one of the many broken up Mormon churches to more easily accept the new prophets, new scriptures and fulness of the gospel of the Father which will be sent to them. Were it not for this shaking of the kingdom of the devil and the tumbling to the earth of the great and abominable church, every last one of those belonging to it would reject the new stuff coming from the Lord, because they would follow their general authority leaders’ counsel of rejecting it. Essentially, the Lord is going to turn things upside down, or pull the rug out from underneath the members of His church’s feet, causing a division among His people, so that each man must make his own decision when the new good news is sent, instead of relying upon someone else. Nevertheless, the vast majority will still follow their new broken up Mormon church priests, as these priests will introduce false and vain and iniquitous doctrines, allowing all manner of iniquities in their churches, so that they become addicted to wickedness.

Why the leaders? Because when the marvelous work and a wonder commences, it will begin among the Lord’s house by causing the “wisdom of their wise and learned” to perish and the “understanding of their prudent” to be hid. The rulers and seers of the people are going to be covered by the Lord. Among the LDS, the general authorities are the wise, learned, prudent, rulers and seers. They shall perish in an earthquake and be hid (or covered) by the roof of the conference center falling upon them.

For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. For behold, ye have closed your eyes, and ye have rejected the prophets; and your rulers, and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity…Therefore, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, yea, a marvelous work and a wonder, for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid. (2 Ne. 27: 5, 26)

Building the conference center (a great and spacious building) was unwise, not smart (unlearned), not prudent. The designers, planners and builders of that particular edifice did not know that it would one day collapse, leading to the dissolving of the corporate Church and the dividing of the members of the one church into many smaller broken up churches. Had they known this, they never would have built it. It was an error on their part, a grave mistake, but the Lord, knowing of the future earthquake, will use it to further His divine purposes. If and when that building does collapse, it won’t mean that all of these dead leaders were wicked men and that the judgments of the Lord were upon them. The Lord allows the consequences of stupid actions to follow.

2 Nephi 27: 27 begins the prophecies which speak of the priests of the broken up Mormon churches, which will descend into iniquity.

And wo unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord! And their works are in the dark; and they say: Who seeth us, and who knoweth us? And they also say: Surely, your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay. But behold, I will show unto them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that I know all their works. For shall the work say of him that made it, he made me not? Or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, he had no understanding? (2 Ne. 27: 27)


The good news is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is still God’s church. The keys are still here, both of the priesthood and of the church.

The bad news is that it appears the Gentile priesthood holders are failing the test that the Lord has given to them in their handling of the keys of the priesthood. Instead of using the keys to serve their fellowmen, many are using them to aggrandize themselves and become rulers in the kingdom, patterned after the Gentile kingdoms.

Even more bad news is that it appears that the Gentile church membership is failing the test that the Lord has given in the handling of the keys of the church. Instead of keeping the priesthood under control and weeding out the snakes, the membership is lifting on a pedestal every man whose office they consider to be high, and thus choosing to support iniquitous priests.

The really bad news is that it looks like the Lord is going to put a stop to this madness quite abruptly, in the form of an earthquake, causing a division among His church.

The really, really bad news is that it looks like, according to prophecy, that this will have the effect of causing the current membership, who have a shiny, goody-two-shoes exterior and a rotten interior, to show their true colors, instead of all the current hypocrisy, so that every conceivable iniquity will be openly and joyously practiced in the broken up churches that come after the great earthquake.

The good news is that all of this is in preparation for new prophets, new scripture and more good news (the fulness of the gospel of the Father.) But this good news is only good for those who repent, accept the fulness and become numbered with the Indians. However, for those, the even better news is that the city of Zion will be built soon after these events start happening.

For us right now, though, considering the depths of wickedness that the broken up churches are slated to descend into, it may be time to count our blessings and enjoy the relative peace and tranquility that we have now in the unified church. Sure it’s lukewarm, but at least the worst that is happening is excommunication, not the murdering of saints…


Here are some additional thoughts inspired by this post.

Alma the elder was a polygamist with concubines. After hiding for many days and starting his own private ministry, who would be the first people he would trust to preach to? Probably his wives and concubines. The record states that he repented, but as he already had wives and concubines, his repentance probably didn’t mean he divorced all of them except his first wife, as that would have been sin, but he most likely kept his wives and concubines (in grandfather clause fashion) and merely preached monogamy from here on out per Lehi’s revelation.

The people who accepted Alma’s message would also have had plural wives, for they were led into the same sins as king Noah, therefore, this was a church of practicing polygamists who had repented and now were espousing monogamy, while still retaining their plural wives.

As the women’s liberation movement didn’t exist back then, and there were no feminists that I am aware of, culturally the wives would have stayed with their husbands even if their husbands changed religions (as Alma ended up doing), and followed their husbands wherever they led them, even if they did not get baptized themselves. But, I’d say it was a good chance that Alma’s wives and concubines converted to Alma’s new religion, for this was the culture anciently: for a woman to follow her husband and to cleave unto him.

King Noah and priests possibly changed the monogamous affairs of the kingdom to polygamy in order to quickly grow the population, to better protect themselves from the Lamanites that surrounded them. As plural marriage was permitted under the law of Moses, but not under the law of Lehi, this may have been presented as a return to the ancient way of doing things, before Lehi adulterated things with new revelations. More people also meant more industry and taxes. The people, both men and women, might have gone along with the new scheme because they recognized, like Noah, that there is safety in numbers. Active procreation, with wives, concubines and harlots, may have been actively preached over the podium and promoted by the government, as a wartime measure. King Noah and his people did not have the land protections of the other Nephite populations. They were dwelling right in the heart of Lamanite territory, so thinking out of the box may have been easier for them in their precarious position.

Monogamy may have been initiated by the Lord through Lehi among the Nephites to keep their numbers small, so that they would have to humble themselves before the Lord to get His protection from the warring Lamanites. With populations of similar size, the Nephites might have quickly forgotten the Lord and wiped themselves out in wars with the Lamanites far before their time. Or, perhaps they might have wiped out the Lamanites, which would have frustrated the Lord’s plans, as the promises of the Lord were that the Lamanites would forever dwell upon the land. A worst case scenario might have been a repeat of the Jaredites, with Nephites and Lamanites wiping each other out. Monogamy may have been the Lord’s way of both extending the lives of the Nephites and protecting the lives of the Lamanites. As for the Lamanites, who also practiced monogamy, the Lord seems to have blessed them with greater fertility, perhaps even the twin gene, and with greater strength, so that they multiplied and replenished exceedingly fast (must faster than the Nephites) and also were bodily stronger than the Nephites. All this so that the odds were intentionally stacked against the Nephites, to cause them to turn to the Lord for help.

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  1. Regarding the capital murder trial of Abinadi, you said:
    “For one dissenting vote in a capital punishment case may have nullified the procedure.”

    A unanimous vote for execution would actually nullify the procedure. An “all-for-death” vote was thrown out because it was assumed that if no one would vote for mercy, then there must be some unjust grudge against the accused. If Noah wanted a guaranteed execution based off the vote, then it would have been in his best interest to keep Alma in the voting pool.

  2. “I highly doubt anyone will read it in its entirety.”

    I just finished reading it in its entirety and it was worth it. I will be coming back and using the hyperlinks to re-read some points.

    Amazing article.

  3. I also read it all. Thank you for your posts. Thank you for your spirit. I have learned much. I have no problem with what I have read so far. As I have read certain principles which I had previously learned came to mind. You messages increase my desire to be more faithful and live, or as you explain be more congruent to Heavenly Father. I know, nothing doubting that He has spoken to me, calling me by name He testified who He is and how much He loved me with an accompanying witness of the Holy Ghost. He then asked if I could have this same love towards all others. This was not in audible words but the meaning was precise and clear. It was not the first time I had received a witness from the Holy Ghost nor the last. It was over 35 years ago. I wasn’t perfect and sinned after that event too. I think I am writing this to confirm and increase the faith of any who might see it. I specifically want to tell you that I believe what you are saying has great merit because of the way it increases my desire to love God more. I have questions but will wait till I read it again. For now might it not be completely possible that satan inspired men would bring down the conference center?

  4. “In the case of the Restoration churches, only the main body (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) possesses to this day, both sets of keys. All of the splinter groups that have broken off from the main body since the days of Joseph Smith to now have been a minority of members, meaning that they did not constitute “the voice of the people.””

    So how did Alma’s “breakaway church” obtain the keys of the church — wasn’t the majority of the members with the apostate church of Noah?

  5. Nevertheless, Alma began a private ministry, in the which he established a church of Christ, which was separate and distinct from the church of Noah’s priests. This congregation of 204, and later of 450 people, possessed the keys of the church of Christ established by Alma, thereby validating Alma’s priesthood with their common consent. (The general population did not possess the keys of the church of Christ, for they were not a part of the church of Christ, but held to the law of Moses alone.)

    My understanding is that these weren’t just different churches, but altogether different religions. For example, the Christian, Jewish and Muslim religions, although using some of the same scripures, are fundamentally different. Noah’s people weren’t Christians, while Alma’s people were. This was the first time among the Nephites that the believers of Christ were organized into a separate religion, establishing the first church of Christ. The apostate people of Noah never had the keys of the church of Christ, for they were not members of a/the church of Christ.

  6. I don’t want to beat a dead horse but the point of Alma having a new church is the only explanation why Mosiah had him ordain new priests etc when Alma and his people came to Zarahemla. So now for my continuing question. Is the reason you see an earthquake as the cause of “covering the seers” (the verbiage there kind of strengthens your thoughts) because of your skill you have obtained in understanding prophesy or is it more a whispering of the spirit? The latter which I do not degrade in the slightest. Your statement that your source is the holy spirit in one of your replies is as Joseph said about true doctrine, “sweet to my soul”.

  7. So Zeniff held the priesthood keys — which he passed on to Noah — but you’re saying that he did not have the keys of the church [of Christ], so those did not get passed on, but were given firstly to Alma?

  8. dyc4557, I received two personal revelations over the past year and a half concerning the break up of the church by an earthquake. My (prophetic) interpretation of those revelations is that the earthquake will do this by destroying the conference center during a general conference, resulting in the conditions I detailed in the post.

    After this prophecy formulated in my mind, I thought I had to be wrong, for I did not want to believe that such things would happen. So, I searched the scriptures specifically to debunk it, but I instead found scriptural (prophetic) support for this view. According to my understanding of prophecy, I kept coming to the same conclusions, no matter where I looked in the scriptures. So, I cast aside my initial desire for the interpretation to be false and accepted the interpretation wholeheartedly. It is now my personal understanding that these events will occur as I explained in the post.

    In other words, although I can’t categorically state that the Spirit directly stated to me that the conference center will be taken out, I can categorically state that I believe that my interpretation of those revelations is correct and will come to pass. I do not doubt, in the least, that these events will occur as stated. So, I know that the break up of the church will happen and that it will happen by an earthquake, for the Spirit told me these things, but the rest I do not know. Nevertheless, I have faith that the rest will happen as detailed in the post due to both my understanding of prophecy and also according to the gift to prophesy, which I have.

    In addition to the scriptural confirmations, there is also that guy who claims to have received a vision in which he saw the conference center being destroyed by an earthquake. So, this may be the law of witnesses at work. But even if what he saw was the result of eating too much red meat the night before, I still stand by the above descriptions.

  9. Justin wrote:

    So Zeniff held the priesthood keys — which he passed on to Noah — but you’re saying that he did not have the keys of the church [of Christ], so those did not get passed on, but were given firstly to Alma?

    My understanding is that there was no organized church of Christ among the Nephites from the time of Nephi (son of Lehi) to the time of Alma the elder, although anyone who “comes to Christ” through baptism and confirmation and the reception of the Spirit is literally “the church of Christ.” Therefore, in that sense, there were members of the church of Christ from Nephi onward, but there was no organized body of church members who congregated in their own, separate church. The people lived and were taught to live the law of Moses by the priests, who were all high priests after the order of Melchizedek. Some of those priests and people believed in Christ, others did not (Noah). Some of the priests also taught the Prophets, or the prophetic writings and sermons of the prophets among them, from Lehi onward, as well as the prophets of the Old World. So, they taught the Law (the first five books of Moses) and the Prophets (the prophetic writings). But the Nephite prophets, in particular, taught of Christ, and not every priest or person believed the words of every prophet that came among them. Plus, not every prophet was on the priesthood rolls (Abinadi) and so, there was the general population, the priests and teachers (the priesthood), and the individual prophets among the people, but no organized church of Christ.

    The Jews in Jerusalem, apparently, had some kind of an organized church, for Zoram spoke to Nephi many times of the “brethren of the church” and “elders of the Jews” among them, but the Nephites apparently never had such a church organization like their Old World counterparts. They didn’t pertain to this or that church, or have bodies of believers organized into separate congregations, each congregation, although separate, still belonging to a united general church, such as we see in Mosiah 25: 19-24. It was only from Alma onward that a church was established, with a high priest (president) presiding over the high priesthood.

    The keys of the church belong to the church, or to the people, not solely to the priesthood, so everyone holds the keys just by being born. We held them in the heavens and we hold them now. These keys are only exercised by a majority. Church keys are not passed on or delegated, they are merely exercised or not exercised, or are suppressed by tyrants (who usurp authority over the people). When Alma started preaching his new religion, it was the keys of the church (held by the unbaptized people he preached to who had accepted Christ and desired to enter into a covenant with Him) that authorized him to establish a new church, for his listeners were the ones who authorized his priesthood and allowed him to baptize and organize them into a separate body of believers. After he had baptized and formed them into a church, it was the baptized members who principally held the keys of the church, not the unbaptized ones, for now a church existed in which were vested these keys. The unbaptized people still exercised their keys in allowing or disallowing Alma’s priesthood or in granting him permission to baptize them, but additionally, the members of the church also had a say-so as to whether they permitted anyone to enter into their church, as well as other ecclesiastical matters.

  10. Regarding the topic of women being the main holders of the keys of the church — is it appropriate to have priesthood holders voting in Church settings?

    In other words, do I hold the keys of the church as a baptized member with agency — and hold the inactivated keys of the priesthood as having the rights conferred on me?

  11. Yes, to both questions.

  12. If there was “no organized church of Christ among the Nephites from the time of Nephi (son of Lehi) to the time of Alma the elder,” what sort of structure was present, if any?

    I did a brief search on terms I’d associate with some form of organization resembling what the hierarchy defines as “church”, and have included them below. Alma 4:4 seems to be the motto these days, “And they began to establish the church more fully… ,” but I was at least hoping there was evidence to the contrary in the scriptures.

    Let me preface this by saying I would LOVE for there to have been no organization whatsoever then, now or ever for that matter. Perhaps it’s the little anarchist in me, but I would love to believe that. Much the way the original revelations to Joseph had no discussion or mention of establishing any church, and only later did the interpretation of “church” come into play, I’d love for it to be just a personal relationship existence we teach to each other.

    That being said, here are those examples which suggest some form of organization between “Nephi (son of Lehi) to the time of Alma the elder”:

    (1) Nephi spoke extensively of churches, though I doubt his was the form he saw in his visions (1 Ne. 13-14, 1 Ne. 22, 2 Ne. 6, 2 Ne. 9, 2 Ne. 25, 2 Ne. 26, 2 Ne. 28).
    (2) Alma ordained priests (Mosiah 18)
    (3) Jacob + Joseph ordained priests (2 Ne. 5)
    (4) Prophets, priests and teachers labored diligently (Jarom 1:11)
    (5) Jacob stating that he and Joseph had been called as priests and teachers (Jacob 1)
    (6) King Benjamin “appointed priests to teach the people, that thereby they might hear and know the commandments of God, and to stir them up in remembrance of the eoath which they had made.” (Mosiah 6)
    (7) King Noah replaced the priests of Zeniff with his buddies (Mosiah 11).

    There are a few other examples that I’d consider intimating a hierarchy or organization, but these represent the vast majority. Though I think the D&C 10 definition of church would be fantastic to apply both then and now, can we safely assume that all of these above examples were devoid of religious organization at all? Where did Alma get the idea to assign one priest for every 50 people (Mosiah 18), if not from somewhere in his past? Sure, the idea that it was “pure revelation” would be fantastic, but in all likelihood it was from somewhere in his past.

    Turning to Noah, I view Noah doing what he did as a mix of government AND religion. The 1/5th tax was made up of 1/10th taxes and 1/10th tithing. His “building program” was based on these taxes and tithing proceeds. They replaced spiritual guidance and revelation with physical manifestations of growth (new vineyards, “many elegant and spacious buildings,” a “spacious palace,” a tower built near the “temple,” many “buildings” in the land if Shilom, a “tower” in Shilom, etc.) (Mosiah 11). How could Noah and his priests flatter the people, unless it was in the context of religion? Can we (people in general) be flattered through our civic and governmental lives? Perhaps. Can we (people in general) be flattered through our religious lives? I think that’s the more likely scenario…

    Mosiah 11 lays most of this out, and I fully admit I could be misinterpreting this discussion, but the language I see is a mix of religion AND politics, but especially religion.

    Now, I guess my question would now turn to organization. If Noah’s actions weren’t an example of an organized religion (gone wrong, I might add), I’m not sure what one would be. The mere fact that he replaced the priests of his father with his own friends, and “changed the affairs of the kingdom,” suggests (to me) at least a modicum of organized religion. I would surmise that the existence of the temple, near where they built a watchtower (because they’d lost the spiritual ability to foresee), would also be an example of an organized religion. I have a hard time visualizing that the building and creation of a temple (which I’d guess was fairly difficult to build in the day) was done without any religion present.

    Others prior to Noah and Zeniff also had temple(s). I’m not sure we can say if they used the same temple Nephi built (2 Ne. 5), but nevertheless temple(s) was/were present (i.e., Jacob taught in the temple, went up to the temple, etc).

    So, are we to presume that in spite of human nature (D&C 121), these people avoided any and all religious organizations for a period of some 450 years (from 600 B.C. to 150 B.C.) or more? That somehow, in spite of the natural mans designs to institute order and control and domination on others (or anyone, really) throughout the entire history of mankind, that somehow the Nephites + Lamanites somehow managed to live, work, fight and labor to preach the gospel in absence of any organized religion That somehow Noah didn’t realize that perhaps the most profitable business model was to institute a flat tax AND tithing program, guilting people into paying both required taxes and a required tithing? Then spending that money building a mini-fiefdom which was their way of professing that God was prospering them (Mosiah 12:15)…after all, nothing presents better proof that “all is well in Zion” then a fantastic building program (temples, conference centers, palaces, vineyards (i.e. businesses), etc). Not that there isn’t a parallel for today hidden in there somewhere…

  13. I haven’t gone to church for a year, except now and then, because I don’t agree “with what is being taught”.

    I have a female friend who raised her hand in opposition to sustaining the stake president, in stake conference. Since then she has been treated as an apostate, by everyone from the stake president down to her husband. She is anything but apostate. For example, she wont read anything that isn’t printed or sanctioned by the “brethren”.

    I don’t want to go back to church because I don’t feel I can “sustain” the leadership by giving them my consenting vote. I get what you said, that sustaining comes after the voting, and I haven’t gone because I thought my vote was showing the “powers that be” that I was agreeing to sustain rather than simply giving my vote. So…if I were honest, I would raise my hand in opposition, and then I would get the same treatment my friend has received. So my question is, Do you think it is alright in the eyes of the Lord to just stop going, rather than putting myself through the discomfort of “opposing”?

    I have had a problem with the secret handshakes engaged in by our recent prophets, with leaders of the nation. I don’t feel I can “vote” for them. And I see that all of us are engaged in “unrighteous dominion”, since we all take part in government funded programs that are kept afloat by forced taxation, or legal plunder. So…I really couldn’t vote for anyone, not even myself!

    On another point, I have a son who is eight and has not been baptized. He wants to be, but also, he wants me to baptize him. The bishop said I can baptize him is I go to church when I can, and I start paying my tithing. I consider myself worthy to perform the ordinance, but I don’t want to because I don’t want to go to church right now, and I don’t want to pay tithing right now. So I thought it interesting how you brought up how those with active keys hinder those with suspended keys.

    Anyway, thanks for the article, I now have something to consider that I haven’t before.

  14. Hell-raising Love Monster asked:

    So my question is, Do you think it is alright in the eyes of the Lord to just stop going, rather than putting myself through the discomfort of “opposing”?

    I am reminded of the following:

    Sustain inspired leaders and withdraw support from uninspired leaders

    The proper, scriptural way that the Lord has set up whereby membership can “modify the misbehavior of the leadership” is by withdrawing a sustaining vote. Most people feel that once a vote is cast, it must remain cast until the end of the term of office. The election of California Governor Schwarzenegger should have put an end to that line of thinking. Just as the Lord giveth and taketh away, so the membership has the power to sustain and withdraw support.

    I might suggest a couple of important things to keep in mind when withdrawing support from an uninspired leader. First, this is not a way to punish him, but to encourage him to sanctify himself so that he may again have your support. And second, keep firmly in mind the difference between what are the commandments of God and the counsels or petitions of an uninspired man. As long as you continue to keep the commandments of God, you will remain on safe ground.

    For example, having entered baptism and made a covenant with God, we are to partake of the sacrament each week. So, not attending a ward that has an uninspired bishop is not an option. However, just attending the portion in which the sacrament is passed, partaking and then skipping the rest of the meeting, might be. On my mission, many baptized members did just that, as they had covenanted to partake of the sacrament each week, not listen to every talk given in that meeting.

    (Taken from Apathy is not a problem, it’s a symptom and a solution.)

    and also

    Leave boring sacrament meetings after partaking of the sacrament

    If you are tired of banal, boring, lame sacrament meeting talks and seriously consider going inactive, don’t. Just go to church, partake of the sacrament, and as soon as the priests and deacons are dismissed to sit with their families, walk out and go home. You can return later to attend the Gospel Doctrine class, Relief Society or Priesthood Meetings, if you want or need to. If Gospel Doctrine is lame, skip that, too. (However, to remain in good standing, priesthood holders must attend their priesthood meetings, even if they are boring.)

    Doing this will allow you to keep your sanity for a few more years. Also, if enough people in your ward participate in collective ditching, the bishopric may get the message that boredom is not a generally accepted principle of the gospel and may make needed improvements to the sacrament meeting. But don’t hold your breath on that one.

    (Taken from Spicing up your church experience.)

    So, generally speaking, I don’t think that inactivity is good either for the individual or for the church as a whole. The Lord has commanded us to partake of the sacrament, and we should, if at all possible. Obviously, there are justifiable reasons for not attending sacrament meeting, such as a lack of transportation, sickness, etc. Persecution or putting the spiritual, physical, social or emotional welfare of you or your family in danger may also be justifiable reasons not to attend. Hopefully, there are no wards out there that actively persecute their own members. But as there are harassment laws that are in place to stop such things, all you have to do, usually, is drop the word “harassment” in a conversation with someone heaping persecution on you and they usually clam up. No one wants a law suit.

    No one knows your exact experience. Only you can tell if you are justified to stay home or not, keeping in mind the commandments of God to partake of the sacrament. Also, keep in mind that inactivity is bad for the church as a whole, because dissenters who leave allow the church to become even more tyrannical in nature. Instead of diluting the tyranny and actively opposing it, by their departure they make it more concentrated and more tyrannical (free to do what they want without any opposition).

    There is an opposition in all things, by divine design. Good is supposed to oppose evil. So, I think it is our duty to exercise our agency in opposing anything we see contrary to the laws of God, according to our understanding of those laws, no matter where it may be found, even if in the church of God itself.

  15. I would say that an Earth Quake to shake things up in a metting at the Great & Spacious Building seems consistent with what I would think to be an apropriate thing to do.

    We should ry to think as Christ would & that sure seems to be an apropriate thing to Happen. For years Leaders with a deaf ear to the Lord have “SHAKEN” His House up as well.

    But is I were to guess at the Apropriate time for such a thing to happen it would be after the events described in chapter 66 of Isaiah. Get Avraham Gileadi’s interpretation of this by Googling ISAIAH DECODED COMMENTARY by Avraham Gileadi.

    Put your Revelation of the Earth Quake & The senerio described in that chapter of Isaiah together….And I think you would have a winning combo.

    I would pose a Question to you regarding your Prophecy….Did you ACTUALLY SEE IT IN VISION of did it come by Revelation ?

    Surely the Scriptures say that many people of these days would have Visions & Dreams. And seeing as the “Official Prophets” have stoped having them, is ALL THE MORE REASON for OTHERS to be having them.

    Remember the KEY ELEMENT to the Lord Cleaning His House is accomplished through the Instrumentality of a TRUE PROPHET “SENT” from the PRESENCE of God with GREAT POWER.

    The Earth Quake would be a Fitting End to a Meeting that was INTERUPTED by this GOD SENT PROPHET to appear SUDDENLY as ELIJAH did before AHAB.

    REMEMBER Elijah steping between the False God Statues and causing them to FALL on His way out the Door of THAT MEETING ?

    EVERYTHING of major consequence has it’s Type….Maybe THIS was IT….Only NOW an EARTH QUAKE brought on by the Lord’s True Prophet at the Conclusion of a CONFERENCE MEETING…

  16. And as far as the Great & Spacious Building is concerned….We take Jabs at the Conference Biluding as being this Symbolic Building as seen in Lehi’s Vision.

    But I wonder NOW if he was ACTUALLY SEEING the Conference Center in his Dream…

    And like you said in your Personal Prophecy……It REALLY DOES FALL ….Like in Lehi’s Dream…

    Lehi in that Dream, having Partaken of the Fruit of the Tree of Life, could be in Type for the Final True Prophet sent from the Presence of God after HE Partakes of the Fruit of that Tree.

    Sounds like that is EXACTLY what is occuring with the Guy in Revelation in the first couple of chapters who “OVERCOMES” and recieves the SAME.

    All pieces to the SAME BIG PUZZLE…

  17. I get updates on the latest earthquakes in my email, so today when I read an email alert that there was a large earthquake (7.2 in magnitude) in the Mariana Islands Region, I thought that there seemed to be an awful lot of earthquakes happening this year in the 7+ magnitude range. So, I checked out the USGS 2010 Significant Earthquake and News Headlines Archive. From the list it did appear to me to be a lot of 7+ mag earthquakes, but I didn’t take the time to count them nor to compare this year with other years. Instead, I did a Google news search on earthquakes and found this blog post:

    Mariana Islands, Ecuador, Peru Earthquakes over 7 on Richter scale

    Apparently the author was looking at the same data I was, but actually took the time to count. There have been 17 of these 7+ mag earthquakes this year, the most ever. And there were two back to back 7+ mag earthquakes that happened today and yesterday, plus another 7+ mag earthquake that happened three days ago.

    I must confess, I am perturbed. These earthquakes may mean nothing, but I also had an inspired dream a little over a month ago in which a great earthquake played a major part. And to add fuel to my imagination, for the past month my neighbors have been playing their music really loud, with a lot of bass, causing my home to shake and shiver. In fact, in all seriousness, just about every day our home trembles.

    So, I keep getting presented with earthquake imagery, in one form or another.

  18. I searched “earthquake october 2010” on a search engine this morning, and I found plenty of sites that support such an idea:

    NEW PREDICTION: 11/11/08 — Seattle was first, earlier in the year. This will be much, much worse. Parts of San Francisco will look like they were hit by a nuclear bomb when a magnitude 7+ or 8+ seismic shock tears through the city in October 2010. Jaws will drop as people watch the news coverage live on television during the aftermath of this apocalyptic disaster. To make matters worse there will be major fires ignited in several sections of the city. Still, the Los Angeles earthquake to come later will be beyond what the imagination can conceive.

    This site is for the organization of a earthquake preparation drill: Register now for the 2010 ShakeOut on October 21 at 10:21 a.m.! More than 6.9 million Californians participated in 2009, to practice how to protect themselves during earthquakes, and to get prepared. We now invite you to “Secure Your Space” to reduce damage and injuries.

    Here’s a comment from this youtube video: Doing my own astronomical work, I thought I had the earthquake narrowed down to between September 25, 2010 and October 13, 2010 …. with the strongest chance being on October 4, 2010.

  19. Justin, I followed those links and found another site,, that is giving a prediction (it is claimed to be a prophecy from God) for a major earthquake to happen in California on 9/3/10 (September 3rd). On that web site there were some comments of others who claimed to have received an independent witness from the Spirit that a large earthquake was coming to California on or around that time, or who claimed to have received a confirmation of that prediction. These are from Christians and they are warning other Christians to depart from the area around that time.

    What I find particularly interesting is that in the prophetic dream I had, the number 9000 was given. One 9 and 3 zeros. That could mean 9/3. I still don’t have confirmation. I suppose I could just do a fast with prayer to figure this out…

  20. To add to this:

    My wife received a dream concerning an earthquake last night. She does not follow the discussions online that I do — so I believe it to be another true witness about this future event.

    I have been feeling that the October earthquake that breaks up the Church would take place in 2011 — this new information will cause me to return to the Lord in prayer to seek confirmation as well.

  21. I re-read the section on the earthquake this morning. I found it interesting that you wrote:
    Liquefaction is also of grave concern for this area. Liquefaction is when the ground becomes mixed with water and acts like a liquid, instead of like a solid, kind of like quick sand.

    My wife’s dream specifically dealt with liquification of the ground — more so than the ground shaking.

  22. LDSA:

    I’m on an email group and someone shared this article with the group. One of the members of the group responded to your article by saying this:

    “Thanks for sending this article – and this is exactly why we have such huge misunderstandings for what “priesthood” is. The thinking behind this article is VERY Tree of Knowledge and very much based upon the physical/carnal (Natural Man desire for power) and NOT the Spiritual. This type of thinking about the priesthood and who’s got it, is really a game of button, button who’s got the button. This leads to fighting over the button to see who ends up with it. and a severe problem of Ego pride in those who “think” they “Have” it. And whoever has the button is the king of bunker hill. This is one of the reasons that Elijah MUST return (according to the Prophet Joseph) to “Re-Veal” the Priest-Hood. If he does not, then the whole earth will be utterly wasted at the coming of the Bridegroom – for the Love of men will have waxed completely cold, and there will be NO Priest-Hood.”

    Thought you might be interested. I should probably divulge that I generally don’t agree with the guy who wrote this. He was responding to a portion of your article – the part on how Noah and his priests, Zeniff and his priests and Alma and his priests had some form of priesthood….fwiw.

  23. Getting geared up for some earthquakes? Thought you might enjoy this cool video:

  24. Tom,

    “O…that the mountains might flow down at thy presence” and “Yea, when thou comest down, and the mountians flow down at thy presence”. (D&C 133: 40, 44)

    That’s what the video looked like to me, a mountain (or hill) flowing down.

  25. Justin, I have no indication of when the conference center quake will happen, except for one: if Israel and Iran clash, then the Utah quake will follow on its heels. So, I am focussing on the Middle East for the sign of the impending Utah quake. Specifically, I’m waiting to see if anyone dares to inspect Iranian ships, per the new sanctions. If that happens this month or next month, my feeling is that that will be the war trigger. But as yet, I’ve gotten no signs of these two events.

    I can’t say the same regarding a California quake. Just in the last few days, there have been some news out of California concerning the largest computer simulation ever of a large (8.0) Californian earthquake and also a new report published that shows that the San Andreas Fault is much more active for large quakes than previously thought. Apparently, it is overdue for a catastrophic earthquake. Then there’s the Rapid system coming online, allowing seismologists to “browse” earthquake data and also the report of the American-Samoa tsunami of last year being caused by the super rare occurrance of an 8.0 quake followed by two simultaneous 7.8 quake (together equalling another 8.0)! All of this news has been presented to us seemingly back to back in the last few days.

  26. Anon, I’m not sure what he meant by “The thinking behind this article is VERY Tree of Knowledge and very much based upon the physical/carnal (Natural Man desire for power) and NOT the Spiritual.” Is he saying that my conclusions are wrong?

  27. LDSA:

    Help me out on a few things I’m missing. Why do you feel a Utah quake would follow on the heels of the Iran/Israel war coming in November? November 8-12 are some really hot days, in the sense that something’s coming that will be really ugly, and most indicators seem to point to the whole Iran/Israel thing.

    Re: Anon’s comment. I took it to mean that the original author was saying he disagreed with, if not your conclusions, then at least your discussion on the holding of priesthood and the exercising of the same. I’m still trying to get past all the Hy-PHEN-at-Ed words, but based on what he wrote, I’m not sure he read more than a snippet of your article – it is some 22,xxx characters long after all. Beyond that I’m just blowing spitwads at the ceiling.

  28. Tom, November? I don’t see where I said November. If I did, it was a typo. I’ll look for it again and correct that.

    The Utah quake would happen during a General Conference, either this October or next April, etc.

    The Israel/Iran thing would happen, I believe, either this month (August) or next month (September). If the conflict happens during either of these months, then I feel confident that a Utah earthquake would happen THIS October. My current understanding is that these two events are linked. At first the only indication I had was that one would follow the other, and I didn’t know which one would happen first, or that they would happen simultaneously. Now, though, my understanding is that the Iran/Israel conflict happens first.

    Why do I feel this way? Honestly, I don’t know why. If I switch it around (Conference Center falling first, the State of Israel being broken up second) it just feels totally wrong to me. But when I consider Israel first, Confernce Center second, it feels right. I can’t say I’ve received revelation on this. And I haven’t seen it in vision or a dream. Perhaps it is the spirit of prophecy.

  29. LDSA:

    I put November. That might screw up your timeline a little, but November is really huge in the linguistical sense and seems to be pointing to the Israel/Iran thing happening right around the election. The language surrounding those dates is about 10-fold more charged than what happened around 9/11 and the resulting changes to our world from that event. If that holds true for November, then we could be looking at something pretty ugly, though I’m admittedly not sure.

    I’d go here to read the latest report from HPH.

  30. Tom, regarding Anon’s comment: What threw me off was the “this article is VERY Tree of Knowledge” statement. Wasn’t sure how to take that. I found the list where the author made the comment. It’s on the LDS Remnant list.

    Tom, I admit, I’m not too familiar with Half Past Human. I followed your link and read two articles on the November 8 date, but I’m not sure how they arrived at that prediction. I wonder if they have made accurate predictions in the past and how often their predictions come true.

    At any rate, the way I operate regarding the future is to take all predictions, from any source (including myself), as just a guess, with one exception: if I personally have received something from the Spirit that corroborates. As of today, I haven’t received anything concerning November…

  31. My comments are always too long and so if you want to get to the kernel of this one skip down to the lines after the break.
    I was trying to return to sleep and began daydreaming about future possibilities regarding the return of the prophet Joseph Smith Jr. I imagined a scene in a stake center during a testimony meeting after the covering of the seers and the break up of the church as we see it today. Someone is bearing their testimony and then a man enters the building and walks to the front and some of the congregation recognize him as the man in the daguerreotype from LDSA. All listen attentively to what this stranger says. But none more than the people who have seen the daguerreotype. He teaches a little about prophecies which those present have heard but have never thought of in this manner as Jesus did on the road to Emmaus. Then the man states he is Joseph Smith Jr. and is there to set in order the house of God. Other testimony is given. Those to whom the spirit have testified provide additional witness.
    I have no idea if it would start on such a small scale. But surely there would be a meeting and testimonies born and then a sustaining vote taken just as occurred on April 6th, 1830.
    And while thinking along this line something occurred to me and this is the kernal of this comment.

    I thought of the fall of the conference center and the death of all the apostles currently holding the priesthood keys of the present LDS church. I thought, “Of course how could it be any other way?” The actual gathering to Zion and building it up will be the predecessor to the millennial dispensation as was the earthy ministry of Jesus. Peter James and John had the keys to the new Church of Jesus Christ but were not instructed to replace the church of the Jews (dispensation to Moses) until after the resurrection of Christ. All dispensations are restorations from a falling away. How could we have new apostles of a new church (am I correct in understanding that it will be called the Church of the Lamb of God or similar?) if there were still even so much as one living apostle from the old church? New wine in old bottles doesn’t work. Not that every apostle from the old church would be apostate but that he would no longer be an apostle in the new church. And don’t we all know that except for excommunication the manner apostles are released is in their death? The fall of the conference center would be the Lord releasing all the apostles of the LDS church.
    Okay I am going to try and sleep now. I would like to see if there are holes in my logic. Feel free to poke.

  32. I don’t see any holes.

  33. I don’t want to alarm anyone with all this earthquake talk. I still don’t have any confirmation on anything. I’ve just been trying to figure out this prophetic dream I had recently. Today, a thought struck me about the number 9000 that was in my dream. I wondered if it could also indicate the seismic magnitude of the earthquake, namely, 9.0 on the Richter scale. So I did a search on 9.0 earthquakes and found this study published in 2008:

    Supercomputer Unleashes Virtual 9.0 Megaquake in Pacific Northwest

    Apparently, scientist discovered there had been a 9.0 mag quake off the Pacific Northwest coast on January 26, 1200, and decided to run a computer simulation. Here’s a quote from that article:

    What the scientists learned from this simulation is not reassuring, as reported in the Journal of Seismology, particularly for residents of downtown Seattle.

    With a rupture scenario beginning in the north and propagating toward the south along the 600-mile long Cascadia Subduction Zone, the ground moved about 1 ½ feet per second in Seattle; nearly 6 inches per second in Tacoma, Olympia and Vancouver; and 3 inches in Portland, Oregon. Additional simulations, especially of earthquakes that begin in the southern part of the rupture zone, suggest that the ground motion under some conditions can be up to twice as large.

    “We also found that these high ground velocities were accompanied by significant low-frequency shaking, like what you feel in a roller coaster, that lasted as long as five minutes – and that’s a long time,” said Olsen.

    The long-duration shaking, combined with high ground velocities, raises the possibility that such an earthquake could inflict major damage on metropolitan areas — especially on high-rise buildings in downtown Seattle. Compounding the risks, like Los Angeles to the south, Seattle, Tacoma, and Olympia sit on top of sediment-filled geological basins that are prone to greatly amplifying the waves generated by major earthquakes.

    Scientific research seems to be uncovering a seismic history much more active and dangerous than previously thought for the west coast. I wonder now if one or more west coast “mega-quakes” could create a domino effect on other faults, such as the Wasatch Fault, even re-activating ancient unknown faults throughout the nation. Perhaps this is the reason I was given a dream of a California earthquake, even though my mind has been focussed on a Utah quake.

    Again, I’m just thinking out loud. Please don’t panic. 😉

  34. Yesterday, I learned from an LDS man who reads this blog that another LDS man (in the man’s ward) has been having impressions about an impending California earthquake. Apparently, the latter man was impressed to go out to his balcony and pray to God after general conference last April and exactly when he started his prayer that large Mexico earthquake struck, which he felt. Since then, he’s been feeling impressions to prepare for another large earthquake by the next general conference in October.

    I didn’t talk to the second man, so I don’t know if his impressions were of a Utah quake or a California quake, but as the first man never said anything about Utah, I’m assuming it was regarding California.

    In our correspondence (me and the first man), there were a couple more things that occurred to me.

    1) Another 9 number has appeared. First, there was the number 9000 in my dream. Then there is 9/3 from 9000 (one 9 and 3 zeros), meaning September 3rd. Then there is 9 for the month of September. There is 9.0 meaning the magnitude of the earthquake. Finally, California is 9 years overdue for a major earthquake (per the new study of the San Andreas Fault, which shows that a major quake occurs a maximum of every 144 years and it’s been 153 years since the last one.)

    2) The three scenarios appear to be linked to each other. Let me explain:

    A California quake could be linked to a Utah quake, the CA one triggering the Utah fault (and other faults). So, the CA quake would precede the Utah quake.

    A California quake may be linked to an Iran/Israel conflict. If a CA quake causes economic devastation to the CA economy, it may do the same to the US economy, which will, in turn, affect the world economy. So, a very large CA quake may cause Israel to act now, before the money which comes from the US (intended for Israel) potentially runs out. So, the CA quake would precede the Iran/Isael conflict.

    And finally, it is my understanding that is the an Iran/Israel conflict is linked to the Utah quake and that that conflict will precede the Utah quake.

    So, despite the distance and differences between these events, there appears to be some sort of link between them all.

  35. Yet another 9. A Christian man had a vision on July 24th, 2010 in which he saw the address numbers on his house, 864, turn into a 9. Read his account here. Besides that, what I find particularly interesting is that he said, “Why would it change from three digits (864) to one digit (9)?” In my own dream (the second half of it which I haven’t disclosed), I saw one thing turn into three things, the exact opposite of his vision. Although different, I find it curious that in his vision there was a 1, 3 and 9, as in my dream. (I suppose I’ll mention, also, that there was an implied number 4 in my dream, though I don’t recall seeing the four of anything together, though four total, yes. So, it was a 1 into 3 visual cue with an implied 1 into 4 symbol.) This is interesting, also, because in this man’s dream, there were four numbers total: 8, 6, 4, and 9. My dream also had “groupings” of four: 1 into 3 (3+1=4) and 9000 (4 digits).

  36. Well — so far I’ve only seen news of an earthquake in New Zealand on 9/3. Although it is only 6:15pm on West Coast time.

  37. I don’t believe the lack of an earthquake Sep 3 indicates a lack of truth to a future event of the conference center coming down. I have been praying for things to change rapidly in the spiritual realm of Christ’s church on earth, meaning the people who are following Christ not the organization of the LDS church. But the two are intricately related. The apostate church is preventing many of Christ’s church from living His laws. God will bring an end to this state of affairs. It is just a matter of how and when.
    I have prayed for it to be soon. I will still pray for it.

  38. Here is my current understanding which I wrote on the prophecy forum on Sept 2 concerning a California earthquake.

  39. Regarding the 7.0 earthquake that happened yesterday (Sept 3), Christchurch, New Zealand, was shaken and broken up. Christchurch! Lol!

  40. How prone we are to think things are not happening because talking heads are not talking.
    I was checking for a comparison of earthquake activity. I found something quite astounding. I think news reporters are only reporting what they are told by officials. In history we call that second person accounts and it is counted as unreliable. A good history requires first person records; a report by a person who was there.
    A news reporter rarely or never reports based on raw data. They report what someone tells them. Well no one appears to be talking about what the raw data is screaming.

    The US geological Survey or USGS monitors earthquakes all over the world but especially in the US since they have the equipment and their own people to do the monitoring.

    I checked out a table they have here:

    It shows number of earthquakes in the US from 2000 till 2010.

    Year Num.
    2000 2342
    2001 2261
    2002 3876
    2003 2946
    2004 3550
    2005 3685
    2006 2783
    2007 2791
    2008 3618
    2009 4260
    2010 5558

    The 2010 is only up till today Sept 8th. So a linear (conservative to the point of under estimating) projection of the rest of 2010 would estimate 8337 for 2010.
    Now the vast majority of that increase is in the number of magnitude 2.0 to 4.9 quakes. But that increase is huge. Some will say, “Yes that is good it shows a lot of pressure being released in many little tremors and not a few big dangerous quakes.”
    The future will tell us better than I can speculate. But to me the earth and the sun react to the spiritual life of God’s children here on earth. If there was a thermometer reading showing the level of wickedness among the people of the US and perhaps especially among the LDS I would say the average daily reading is showing a very marked upward (more wickedness) trend.

  41. Luke Thomas of uses unorthodox (some would say ‘quack’) methods to predict California earthquakes. He’s been making predictions since 2006. Apparently he claims a 75% accuracy rate. I don’t know if that is true or not, but his latest web site update is quite interesting. Look at what he wrote:

    September 26-02; Earthquake risk in California

    EARTHQUAKE WATCH; 6.0 to 7.0 earthquake likely in California; Most likely in the Salton Sea or Chino Hills, Los Angeles area. September 29 – October 1

    NOTE; The main earthquake should hit on September 30th. However, the foreshocks should occur on September 27-28.

    NOTE; Click on earthquake forecast maps for more detail.

    Oct 03: 77%
    Oct 02: 83%
    Oct 01: 96%
    Sep 30: 98%
    Sep 29: 94%
    Sep 28: 82% – foreshocks
    Sep 27: 82% – foreshocks
    Sep 26: 52%

    Oct 03: 77%
    Oct 02: 83%
    Oct 01: 96%
    Sep 30: 98%
    Sep 29: 94%
    Sep 28: 82%
    Sep 27: 82%
    Sep 26: 52%

    What caught my eye, in particular, is that he estimated the risk for a 6.0 to 7.0 earthquake to be 98% for Sept. 30! To me that seems like an absurdly high number to put on a prediction. I’m curious as to what data he has been looking at to arrive at such a number.

    As for me, my feeling is that if there is going to be a major earthquake (that devastates the economy) happening in California this year, it will happen in the next five days (including today), with the most likely date being tomorrow (the 27th). If nothing happens this month, then I feel confident that we will have to wait until next year for an Iran/Israel conflict and a major Utah quake.

  42. I do not have high confidence for the trifecta of California/Iran and Israel/Utah happening this year. I will be monitoring the news for quake info over the next few days b/c these signs greatly interest me — but I have not received any manifestations from the Spirit that these events definitely will be happening this year.

  43. The Spirit hasn’t told me a thing about this, either, despite my inquiries. That bothers me a great deal. Usually when there is nothing to worry about, the Spirit calms my mind and puts my fears to rest, such as happened on September 2nd. The fact that I am still anxiously watching for an earthquake this month with no word from the Lord doesn’t sit well with me. Here are some of the things I’m currently looking at:

    I see Uranus, Jupiter, Earth, the Sun and Saturn all lined up:

    Astro Bob blog: Planets line up, world doesn’t end

    One article on this alignment states, “Apart from Jupiter being aligned with the sun with Earth in the middle, we have Uranus which is at just a 0.9 degrees tangent from Jupiter and Earth.” There’s that number 9, again…

    Some volcanoes have dramatically woken up, of late. See The Volcanism Blog for more info.

    I’ve already covered some of this.

    Did you hear about that recent freak storm that made its way to New York City, spawning two tornados and a macroburst?

    I’ve coved some of this already. But, for example, Luke Thomas, in his tweets, is now tweeting about this impending earthquake he is expecting on September 30. He sounds freaked out and is asking people to retweet it. One of his tweets state, “Dangerous amount of frictional heating across California.” Minutes after I commented above about his 98% risk for Los Angeles and how I’d like to know what data he’s looking at, he tweeted, “NEW data is pointing to a 6.0 to 7.0 South California earthquake Sep 30.” I, personally, was going under the assumption that if a great quake is to happen this month in California, we’d see a lull in earthquake activity and then an increase just before it struck. Looking at the Latest Earthquakes M5.0+ in the World – Past 7 days today, I see that Sunday had the most M5.0+ quakes of the week, with 10 quakes listed. The runner up had only 5 such quakes. Also, I see Monday beginning with three M5.0 quakes in the first half hour of the day. (The day has just started.) All three quakes on the Reykjanes Ridge.

    I also see an alarming number of news reports of cities around the world having their emergency services practice earthquake drills, using a catastrophic earthquake as the test. What gives that suddenly all the police, etc., departments have to practice dealing with great quakes? Many within the ranks are complaining of the waste of funds to practice such improbable events. I wonder if perhaps the people calling the shots have received information of late that the improbable has now shifted to probable?

    Many of the natural disasters have an electrical connection (plasma cause). I wonder if electrical state of the Earth and solar system has changed?

    War with Iran
    There has been a lot of news articles about high Iranian officials of late warning the U.S. and Israel not to attack them, that they are prepared to take the war globally should they try anything. Why all the sudden threats to back off? Do they have intel that U.S./Israel is planning something? And what’s with the cyber attack on Iran?

    These and other observations continue to keep my mind fixated on this topic…at least until the month has passed…

  44. Thanks for putting all that together. I’ll be watching these things too.

  45. A few of us in my branch have received spiritual confirmations which indicate 2012 as the year. Two of us are familiar with the discussions here on LDS Anarchy (I have a very personal spiritual experience that even led me to google that oxymoronic juxtaposition of words in the first place) One of us is not.

    I prayed in the temple employing the truest order of prayer I knew at the time. I thought of the spiritual confirmation I already had of the scriptures and of the message they relay to anyone willing to see about the break-up of the church. I expressed my testimony of that to GOD and continued my prayer stemming from that seed of faith. I wanted to know about the conference center and the earthquake. As Moroni invites the faithful to do, I prayed specifically to know whether “these things are NOT true”. My desire was to be led toward him and know that I would not mislead others either. I sought confirmation in that manner. And once I had made of my left and right brains a sea of glass, I was immediately overtaken with the profound sadness of that day. It was a personally felt sadness but augmented by the mourning of others. It was terrible and made me weep. I thought I saw a vague image of grey skies and people but it was suddenly interrupted by a feeling of peace and calm. I knew that in this way the Lord’s purposes would be accomplished and things would end up beautifully if I only trusted Him. (this is highly personal but I know that is given as any gift for the benefit of all who will receive it)

    The other man in my branch who is very close to me and also familiar with the details of what we are watching for, prayed specifically to know IF these things ARE true and felt peace.

    Since those individual experiences but before ever sharing them in any detail with one another, we have jointly received additional, external affirming signs. Two sudays ago we were in class. The teacher explained that the lesson was going to be about apostasy. To start she asked the other man (who was sitting right next to me at the time) to read Amos 1:1. It started off as a perfectly boring intro to a unfortunately typical boring sunday school class until he read the last five words of that verse. “1 The words of Amos, who was among the herdmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.” The words grabbed our ears instantly and we both turned quickly and looked at one another surprised. Something was felt. Apparently the word earthquake appears only 4 times in the old testament. And this self same earthquake is mentioned by Isaiah when comparing past to future. That gave us much to consider. And then just this last Sunday we found ourselves once again bracing for the the boredom, only to be caught by Isaiah 1. (I have found amazing amounts of symbolism in this chapter but those specific verses read aloud in class were 11-15)

    11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
    12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
    13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
    14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
    15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

    Of course the phrases “vain oblations,” “new moons” stood out to us. Then even more specific were the words “assemblies” and “solemn”. It was piercing the language of disgust that The Lord uses to describe all of this. In Spanish the word full in verse 11 is translated as “hastiado” which describes the feeling one gets after eating too much, you know when the very sight of food becomes atrocious to you, in other words, fed up.

    The third man who is not familiar with the blog prayed with concerns about being able to prepare spiritually and physically in enough time before any destructions and judgments commence. In a dream he saw his ex-mission president who for him represented someone he could trust. His mission president said many things to him but my friend could recall only one of those things upon awaking. He said “You have two years. Get ready.” This was made known to me only yesterday while putting chairs away after the meeting. I told him that I felt strongly we must prepare for 2012. And he replied, “I’m glad you know it, I already know it is true because…” at which point he told me of the dream.

    The three of us as witnesses to the same things decided to meet together after church. In my home we discussed the meaning of these things and studied together in 3rd and 4th Nephi. John Taylor’s vision came up. We were all familiar with it. I had recently re-read the beginning portion of it. We saw as further evidence of the impending destruction beginning with Salt Lake, the fact that the very first segment of President Taylor’s vision deals with “all the houses of Salt Lake” which were seen to bear “badges of mourning”. There was much else discussed as far as personal preparations for our families and our brothers and sisters in the branch. But I wanted to bring these revelations to the discussion here and open up to my brethren (and the few sisters who sometimes comment) here.

  46. Earthquake in Iran? The events and places are getting mixed-up. War in California?

  47. From a news site this morning:

    If you went on Twitter or Facebook on Tuesday morning, you may have heard that a major earthquake is due to strike Southern California in the next few days. But is it real?
    “80 HOUR MAJOR EARTHQUAKE WARNING; 6.0 to 7.0 earthquake likely in S California in the next 80 hrs,” a message from Twitter user “Quakeprediction” said. It was ‘retweeted’ by more than 1,000 people, causing it to spread quickly over the popular social networking website and leaving people wondering if it is real.

    The rumor even forced the California Emergency Management Agency (Cal EMA) to put out a special statement to say it is a hoax. “Although the broad scientific community has been working relentlessly to give us better information about earthquakes and their behavior, being able to predict when earthquakes will strike is not something they can do at this point,” said Cal EMA Secretary Matt Bettenhausen.

    “The fact is that we live in a very seismically active state where an earthquake may occur anytime. That means we must take steps now to prepare for any event,” Bettenhausen continued. “Rumors can be scary, but being prepared is something that can truly help you feel better about your ability to survive the next big quake.”
    The purpose of the “Quakeprediction” Twitter account and its website is likely to cause panic and confusion, as the person or people behind it have spread numerous false warnings over the past year. It regularly ‘predicts’ major earthquakes to hit California, but none have turned out to be true.

    The United States Geological Survey (USGS) agreed that it is not possible to predict an earthquake. “Neither the USGS nor Caltech nor any other scientists have ever predicted a major earthquake,” the agency said. “They do not know how, and they do not expect to know how any time in the foreseeable future.”

    However based on scientific data, probabilities can be calculated for potential future earthquakes. For example, the USGS said, scientists estimate that over the next 30 years the probability of a major earthquake occurring in the San Francisco Bay area is 67% and 60% in Southern California.

    “The USGS focuses their efforts on the long-term mitigation of earthquake hazards by helping to improve the safety of structures, rather than by trying to accomplish short-term predictions,” the USGS added.

  48. If you can’t follow OWIW’s link above, click here to read the article.

  49. I am wondering about how you have placed the order of events: Cali earthquake, Iran/Israel war, and Gen Conf earthquake?

    I was reading thru a set of my notes, and I had written, “The nations of the earth won’t be touched until the Lord passes judgement on His covenant people — first the Gentiles, then the Jews. Currently, the Lord is still waiting for the Gentiles to reject the fulness of His gospel — the earthquake and “sword of destruction” comet will not come until they do.

    To me, this indicates a reversed order:
    Gen Conf earthquake [passing judgement on the Gentile Mormon Church], Iran/Israel war [destroying the land of Israel to open the Jews up to repentence and acceptance of Jesus Christ], and then Cali earthquake [destroying the financial markets of the nations of the earth].

  50. Justin, my understanding is that we are still in the mercy phase. I do not view the CA and Utah earthquakes as judgments upon the Gentiles. Their purpose will be to stir up the people to repentance, as well as to fulfill the prophecies. The Iran/Israel conflict, I suppose, could be considered a judgment upon the Jews gathered there, but it will be, in reality, the work of the secret combination, not the work of God, for the secret combination plans on destroying Israel. (It will become a sacrifice.) The prophetic order is that first comes the scattering, then comes the gathering, then comes the judgment upon the church (first) and then upon the nations. The Utah quake will be an act of mercy, allowing the Gentile church to repent of their idolatry (prophet worship). After that, they will descend into all manner of iniquity and reject the fulness of the Father’s gospel and then judgment will be passed upon them and they will be wiped out.

  51. Quake evidence raises red flag in North Quadrant development (Oct. 6, 2010 – Salt Lake Tribune)

    “A 120-foot gash dug near the northwest tip of Salt Lake City reveals new evidence of four magnitude-6.5 earthquakes along the West Valley Fault.

    “Now geologists are scrambling to determine how active the fault is and whether it is connected to the better-known Wasatch Fault rimming Salt Lake Valley’s east bench. If it is, scientists warn a future earthquake would be even more severe than historical projections.”

    Scientists discover West Valley Fault Zone (Oct. 6. 2010 – Deseret News)

    “SALT LAKE CITY — Scientists have discovered evidence of four big earthquakes that rocked the Salt Lake Valley long before pioneers arrived. And they’re not on the well-known Wasatch Fault on the East Bench. “

  52. By way of information:

    A person with a Scribd account has posted this article —
    It says 46 people have read it.

  53. Well, next week is my local stake conference. It will be interesting. A moment of truth for me. Either there will be change or I will be obligated to rise in opposition of the stake president. You see my sp has wrongly accused me of violating Temple covenants and having adulteress relationships and has arbitrarily deactivated my recommend without investigating the truth and facts of the situation or even asking me about it. A little history is that my wife had a mental illness meltdown and abandoned me and our family of 4 kids over a year and a half ago. I started seaching online for the next someone special though I still haven’t gotten the civil property settlement final decree for our divorce. After discovering the my rewcommend was deactivate I went to see the sp and we had an heated exchange of words and he figuratively threw me out of his office. I have written letters to the 1st pres and q12 and shc. No response after 3 months. SP says he will not give me my recommend until I humble myself to him or the prophet directs him to do so. Anyway I suppose I’m sharing for some support. Pray for me. Any thoughts?

  54. Raise your hand-up in opposition — as far as comfort goes, as the Church progresses to the point prophesied in 2 Nephi 28, the temples will be used progressively more-and-more as mere revenue stream.

    ?This might be preparing you for that time?

    The other option is to continue to live “social Mormonism” — and tell the S.P. that you “repent” for the sake of getting this whole thing off your back.

    I offer my prayers three times a day, and I will make mention of you and your situation for the next week.

  55. Living righteously in an apostate church sooner or later will require us all to be punished by that church. I appears your tie has come. I am in the same boat as far as my marriage is concerned. The government papers are not finished. But the marriage is over and I know God supports me in my choice to divorce. In fact He proved that if I decided to not proceed with the divorce He would withdraw His spirit from me.
    So I have no fear of doing wrong by dating and pursuing relationships with other women. And neither should you. Your sp is just exercising unrighteous dominion.
    All of need to recognize that actions motivated by seeking the approval of men or seeking to avoid the punishments of men will never bring us the blessings of God. It is a super huge problem with living in an apostate church. At some point we will each have to be willing to be excommunicated or at least punished for being righteous otherwise we will not be found worthy to be with God. D&C 98 12-15 I believe covers it. I know I am trying to avoid a confrontation. But someday it should not be avoided.
    I will pray for you and when my time comes I know you will pray for me.

  56. That scripture is a great reference. Being a true follower of the Savior will always put us at odds with babylon and its minions. What is most important is being willing to give up everything for Him. I’m trying to get there. The more I try to let the Spirit completely guide my life, the more unpredictable things become and the more I find myself doing and saying things I wouldn’t have before.

    I find this quote to be true as well::
    “the nearer man approaches perfection, the clearer are his views, and the greater his enjoyment, till he has overcome the evils of his life and lost every desire for sin; and like the ancients, arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his Maker and is caught up to dwell with Him.”

  57. Thanks for the support guys. I’ll let you know what happens next week.

    God Bless 🙂

  58. Elder and Sister “Chantdown” will be chanting down the blessings of heaven on your behalf throughout this week as well…Be strong.
    We had a little confrontation with our SP a week ago ourselves. In the which I found myself (just like Deej described) “doing and saying things I wouldn’t have before. ” My sweet wife prayed for me as I talked with him in our doorway. And I wondered where it was coming from. At one point I even layed my hands on him and it was like the dude shrunk before my very eyes. HA! Well the overall result in this case was a decent converstaion like never before with this Brother….made possible by the recognition that we are equals.
    Your situation sounds much more serious and sticky. But know that you are not even close to being alone in this. God will guide you.

  59. Well, today was my big day. I have no spectacular happening or event to report. There was no change of presidency no GA present unless you count the Mission president. During the sustainings at the appropriate point I did stand and said ” I revoke common consent” there was deathly hush. I stated my name and that I was of the Priesthood and that I have direct knowledge concerning the unrighteous dominion and priestcraft of the SP. The conductor 1st counselor said we will speak with you after the conference. That was it. Nothing. SP got to do his song and dance to the members. No one of any authority has yet approached me. I presume at this point I will be quietly called in for a secret court of love or not. Maybe they will just ignore me and hope I will just go away. Anyway it is out of my hands now. I have done what I can do within the law and it is up to God now to do as He pleases.

  60. Wow. To me that sounds spectacular. I’ll keep you in my prayers.

  61. Wow — great story. Good to hear you were able to stand for the right thing. I doubt any in attendance will forget that conference.

  62. That’s amazing!

  63. Can I ask what the “unrighteous dominion and priestcraft” are in your stake?

  64. Thanks and God bless you all for your support. It is much appreciated.

    For Jose and anyone else the nuts and bolts of my story is that my bishop and sp have wrongfully accused me of violating my temple covenants and having an adulteress relationships. Demanding that I repent, confess my sin to them and submit and humble myself to them. My wife has abandoned me and our 4 children over 2 years now. I have begun dateing and getting to know other women though I still do not yet have the final property settlement decree. The civil divorce process is being drugged out by her family because they don’t want to care for her as she is mentally ill. She is abusive to our children and tried to kill me. Social services will not allow her with the children or they will take the children away. sp has never talked to me about the circumstances he has only taken the false accusations from my wife’s family bishop in Utah. sp has arbitrarily deactivated my Temple recommend without just cause and refuses to return it to me unless the prophet himself tells him to do so. The storie gets even murkier. Maybe I will post more about it later. I have writen letters to the 1st P, Q12 and my local HC and no response from anyone in 3 months. What am I to do? Maybe I should start to enjoy the company and date other males if I can’t associate with females?

  65. This is an transcript of an interview I had with my bishop the sunday before Christmas 2010. This was after I had ended a relationship with a woman (not for him) and he said he was going to recommend me for my Temple recommend but had to consult with the sp first then a few weeks later we had this interview.

    Interview Transcript

    Bishop: I’m not going to be able to give you a recommend.

    Member: That is unfortunate.

    Bishop: yes.

    Member: Why is that?

    Bishop: Well, largely because of the issues of the notes and those kinds of things.

    Member: That’s not a criteria.

    Bishop: I know that. But you’re angry.

    Member: And again that is not a criteria.

    Bishop: The Stake Presidency is concerned about you and I am.

    Member: He’s exercising priestcraft by doing this?

    Bishop: yea uhmm.

    Member: I want to be judged according to law and not by his own opinion.

    Bishop: You’re very distracted and taking exceptions with him. It would indicate that you’re upset, angry er…

    Member: What exceptions am I taking with him?

    Bishop: Just your attitude.

    Member: Well, again you guys accuse me wrongly of committing….violating my Temple covenants. What covenant did I violate? The law of chastity? No. I did not have sex with anybody.

    Bishop: Well, the fact that you’re argumentative with me now. Wait a while. Repair this. Have you ever offered an apology to him.

    Member: Have you ever offered an apology to me?

    Bishop: I don’t believe I owe you an apology.

    Member: I believe you do.

    Bishop: This interview is over. Anyway the thing is I can’t get you a Temple recommend.

    Member: Okay well.

    Bishop: Because of the very conditions that exist in your own heart. I can’t give you a Temple recommend until you’re ready to receive it. I have no malice towards you. I don’t. None. The options aren’t anything. I haven’t accused you of anything other than what you have been informed and that you have been in the company of another sister that is not your wife it was really important I asked you that accountability.

    Member: And again that‘s not wrong.

    Bishop: ah…now you’re angry. You sent in those messages to both him and me.

    Member: I’m calling you guys to repentance. You haven’t repented yet. You are the guys who are wrong.

    Bishop: So, you’re calling me to repentance?

    Member: Absolutely, sir.

    Bishop: Our interview is over. I report my stewardship to the stake president.

    Member: It would be nice if he would talk to me or have somebody else call me up.

    Bishop: Why don’t you get on his calendar and I’ll come…I’ll come down there with you. Want me to set this up.

    Member: I want to get this cleared up.

    Bishop: Well, you going to have to…

    Member: My next step will be to take this to a lawyer and get it civilly resolved.

    Bishop: You are going to have to demonstrate that you are worthy to receive your Temple recommend.

    Member: I believe I have, sir. I am not unworthy. Ask the questions. I will answer them all correctly. That is the criteria, sir. Your personal opinion is not the criteria.

    Bishop: Are you angry at me?

    Member: Yes, I am because you are exercising unrighteous dominion and priestcraft.

    Bishop: You said that word?

    Member: Absolutely.

    Bishop: I’ll setup the appointment with the stake president and we can go down there. I’ll e-mail him after 5 o’clock.

    Member: He can come up here. How about that.

    Bishop: He will probably want you to come down there to talk to him. He is our ecclesiastical leader.

    Member: He is in my service. He is my servant. He serves us. He is a servant leader. He is not a corporate leader.

    Bishop: He is a sincere and humble servant of the Lord. He is your stake president.

    Member: I don’t believe that at all.

    Bishop: You don’t believe he is the stake president.

    Member: No, I don’t believe he is a humble servant of the Lord, especially by his priestcraft and unrighteous dominion and the way he has treated me. How he has treated me through you.

    Bishop: I’m not sure he has treated you badly.

    Member: Revoking…arbitrarily revoking my Temple recommend without just cause.

    Bishop: I don’t have the key….I have the keys to recommend a Temple recommend but not the keys to grant it. He does. So, I think maybe you should talk to him as well. I do not feel I should issue a recommend because of the way you dress. You’re angry at me. You’re angry at the Priesthood leadership. You speak out against….

    Member: Rightfully so sir because you guys have wrongfully accused me of things which I have not done! And again you have not investigated or asked questions or followed the instructions in the church handbook of instruction Book 1, sir! Maybe we ought to get the book out and sit down and read it together!

    Walked out of office.

  66. I’m sorry for the rant if it seems so.

    Thanks for allowing me to express it and air it out a bit.

    God Bless All

  67. “…because of the way you dress.”

    Just out of curiosity, how did you dress?

  68. I’m glad I hit refresh before I commented — I was going to ask LDSA’s comment as well. What was he referring to?

  69. Well, I refer you to the spicing up your church experience thread.

    I sometimes wear colored shirts, tie or no tie. Game show corporate casual thingy with polos and blazers, sometime dress jeans, T and blazer with tennis shoes. Loud and wacky ties, totally non conserrvative. The biggest thing is when I wear my eye patch with reference to JST Mark 9. This spring I plan on going retro 80s with Miiami Vice white suit with pastel Ts and sandals. LOL.

  70. Mind you that my ward here in Northern VA near Washington DC is nicknamed little Utah because of the huge populace size in a small geographic area and most members are military, FBI, government and corporate big whigs and lawyers. I’m one of them working at the Pentagon. LOL.

  71. In my ward there are regulars who wear blue jeans with a white shirt and slacks with a polo and blazer — with no issues [as far as I know].

    It’s amazing how location can be such a determinant for problems LDS are likely to encounter. So much for “the church is the same everywhere we go” — lol.

  72. Update: A GA has contacted me directly via phone at my home. We are to speak later this week.

  73. Makes sense — that would be who the SP has to “report” to. However, I’d expect him to be more dogmatic than your SP.

  74. Update: I spoke with GA last week and last night my SP called me and said the GA had spoken with him and advised him to schedule a meet with me and my BP at BP office in our Ward. However the meet is schedule for later in April. More to come. Note: it wasn’t the ES that called to scheduled but it was the SP himself. hmm.

  75. i printed this off and was reading it this week… it was really good, and interesting for me to come across in light of a dream i had about 4 or 5 months ago. i had been fasting and praying a lot about the second coming and such things because i had been studying it a lot because it was becoming quite grievous to me. it was really making me worry quite a bit. so i prayed that the lord would show me what i need to know pertaining to his second coming this short dream occurred that night. i saw temple square it as kind of a hazy scene but i remember seeing the ground shake and rumble and begin to crack with one crack growing in length and spreading out rapidly towards the temple. when the crack hit the temple the temple started to shake an from the bottom up getting more violent in its ascent, once the shaking reached the angel Moroni it shook so violently that the statue fell from its place and shattered all over the pavement. and then the shaking stopped and things became calm. my focus was then directed to the top of the temple where i saw a man hunched over carrying a cross all i could make out from his face was his beard but i assumed he was the savior. when he got to the middle spire where the angel Moroni stood before i saw him ascend to the top of the spire where he rested and that’s where i woke up. it was vague but that’s basically what i saw. I understood it for myself to mean that the only way I or anyone is going to be prepared for the second coming is if we root the idolatry out of our lives and take up the cross and follow the savior not the graven images that assume the role of the savior in our minds. the idea of an earthquake hitting the conference center to me seems legit. if we aren’t willing to stand up for the savior and make him the real centerpiece we will have to tremble and we will have to shake greatly..

  76. i am so glad i come back every so often to read comments. jew1967 i am to visit my brother in may. he lives in bristow. i am going to ask him to re-baptize me into my own tribe. if interested i would be happy to perform any ordinances for you into your own

  77. Hi Andrew, That’s nice of you. Feel free to contact me directly at jew1967 at comcast dot net and maybe we get together for a dinner or some rootbeer. 🙂

  78. I made a comment earlier saying that as members of an apostate church we would face the need to stand up to that fact and be branded as apostate by that church. I believe this has universal application. I think of the article written by LDSA describing how the law of plural marriage could be lived even now by entering into non state marriages and living as friends sharing a house but yet be married. Then so long as no one in the group testified against the other members the Church tm would have no ammunition to accuse.

    But this is avoiding the inevitable. And I believe the Lord prefers that we at some point stand up and be counted. Just as jew1967 did when he publicly revoked his support of the stake pres. I have now on this website stated my opposition to the LDS mandate that we all enter into state licensed marriages and that they will punish anyone who doesn’t adhere to their mandate. If you don’t have a state license they will not allow you to be baptized or sealed.
    But if what I say is true that God is displeased with such requirements then it would also be true that He will bless us for opposing such things by our actions.
    I believe I have proved the truth of this theory.
    Most who know my comments have seen that I was told of the Lord I needed to divorce my wife even from a temple sealing. This I have done.

    I have also received a great blessing from God by proceeding with a very unconventional course of action which was offerd to me as a result of asking in a prayer of faith. I will write a post on it soon. I should probably place this comment also under the post how to receive what we pray for since this has really happened now in my life.

    Be brave, stand up against the apostate teachings of your LDS family and friends and God will provide you with miracles. That is my testimony to you all in these things. More in the post.

  79. Earthquake hits Mexico City — on cinco de mayo.

  80. Jew1967 – What finally happened? I can see how your response could have torqued them, but to deactivate your recommend without talking to you, without hearing your side of the story, is unscriptural and unrighteous.

  81. Well not much has happened. I still don’t have a Temple recommend after over a year of this fiasco. SP won’t take responsibility for his error and now won’t give me a recommend because I won’t sustain him as prophet seer and revelator of the stake tha twill not lead anyone astray.

    We have aWard confernce coming up ion acouple of weeks. I will again stand to withdraw consent and say a few things the congregation needs to know. Fall stake conference is coming around soon as well.

    I just have to suffer the injustice patiently until it is set right if it will ever be set right in this mortal probation. No worries though. Mashiach is himself keeper of the gate and employs no servant there.

    Thanks for your support and YAHWEH Bless

  82. jew1967:

    Thanks for posting your story here. I’m sorry to hear about your problems — but I’m glad to hear you are enduring them with patience — and that you are staying in the church to speak up against the injustice taking place, instead of leaving to just further concentrate the ecclesiastical abusers and their followers.

  83. I was reading through 2 Corinthians last night — and I thought of the minister-servant vs. the Gentile-king role of priesthood officers when I read:

    For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

    The primary message of the traveling apostles was that Jesus Christ is the Lord — they did not consider themselves or some “church” as the focus of preaching. The only thought they took of themselves was to act as servants [below] to the congregations for the sake of Jesus.

    Think about your most recent church service: was the church [ourselves] preached — or Christ Jesus as Lord? Are the priesthood officers considered as leaders — or as servants for the sake of Jesus?

  84. Back in August of last year, while washing dishes, I received a revelation which recalled to my mind the “gray and cloudy day” which I was shown earlier back in 2010. At that time I told everyone here of the subsequent signs pointing my mind to 2012. The revelation received in the temple which I referenced earlier also featured various numbers flashing through my mind but I have never been very strong in this life when it comes to numbers. The only thing I came away with from the set of numbers that appeared was the ‘4’ that they all seemed to fade into. I later came to see this as indicative of Oct. 7th 2012. 10/7/2012 breaks down to 13 which breaks down to 4 which connotes foundation. This would be the final sessions (sunday) of conference weekend. So with all of this I felt quite sure that 2012 would be the year. But then along with this 2011 revelation I received a personal reconfirmation of the things we have discussed on this particular post. At this point we were already waiting for the Lord to send us on a mission. To my surprise I was specifically told to prepare for the possibility of these things (California Quake, Iran Conflict, Conference Center) happening in 2011. I specifically felt the spirit say that God was waiting on the secret combinations to make their decision, their move. And the feeling was that this would determine the ever flexible and just hand of God’s actions among the children of men.

    Interestingly, August, September and October passed before God caused us to embark on our mission to CA and UT. And of course these things did not occur. But then while in UT in Dec. last year some very pertinent information was released by Pastor Lindsay Williams does not claim to have the gift of prophesy but who has exposed many of the plans of the secret combinations as they have been admitted to him by dying members of the these modern day gadianton robbers. So far, every one of his predictions have been accurate. And I was shocked to hear him announcing that his gadianton contacts had set Sep. as the month for war with Iran. I remember wondering why LDSA seemed so adamant about this trifecta of events going down in a back to back fashion. But I trusted in my personal revelation affirming to my mind the Aug, Sep, Oct. sequence of all this.

    Now, a literal news flash…I am very surprised to find that just as I felt to write of this, Lindsay Williams is saying that due to recent actions by Obama, the Iran conflict may or may not be on the calendar for Sep. Very interesting.

  85. I think what LDSA said was that Israel would attack Iran as we see it getting ready to do so. So signs that Obama is shifting his plans maybe a red herring and insignificant. I believe Israel will go forward with it even if it appears the US is not involved. The reality there is one puppet master over both US and Israel and I am not speaking of the overall satanic plot. Earthly agents men of flesh and blood (albeit more reptilian blood) are dictating to US and Israel what to do. Pastor Lindsay might be right that Obama is being told not to proceed. But it may be a PR move by the illumipukes to not stir up the US public too much. The conference center looks to me on track with the completion of the city creek project and the blatant LDS imagery and names and symbols used in the new box office hit The Hunger Games where the Capital is a SLC replica, the nation is called Panam pronounced in the movie by Donald Sutherland as Pan Am (across America) and all the youth are dressed and groomed as pseudo early Utah Mormon kids and Sutherland himself plays president of the nation which is made up of 12 districts all paying tribute to the capital. And the plot has the young heroine killing President oh yeah, President Snow. And President Snow as played by Sutherland has long white hair and a full beard Just not as long as Lorenzo’s. But in the movie is dressed in a complete replica of President Lorenzo Snow in that old tithing movie I think called The WIndows of Heaven. You can’t make this stuff up folks.
    And the movie if I understand correctly open on the same day as the ribbon cutting ceremony where H. David Burton spoke and said of the City Creek project it’s vital to create an atmosphere in Salt Lake City that people like and remember because…? What will he say for missionary work? For the spirit of Elijah? That the gospel (or even at least the LDS church) may be seen in a good light? No he used words and reasoning that dovetailed in with the new movie. he said,”Because Salt Lake City is the capital of Utah, it’s important that it is ‘dressed appropriately.”. I have never heard any thing that said church derived funds should be used to bolster the image of the state of Utah. He could have said many things. But the words The Capital is what he said. Oh yeah one blatant symbol. When President Snow speaks the background has organ pipe motifs.
    They are placing a future event image in the minds of the people.
    With that said will it for sure be this October? I don’t know. The purpose of prophecy is not to show us the date as much as it is to show us that the Lord knew it before. the purpose of the advance images is to prepare our minds for it and to tell our subconscious that “they” knew it was going to happen doing one of two things making them seem prophetic and/or telling us “we are calling the shots and you can’t stop us”.

  86. In the new Katy Perry video, Part of Me, which is just military propaganda to get young girls to enlist, I noticed that at the 2:24 mark, there is a close-up shot of a wristwatch that shows a time of 10:11. This shot is completely out of place with the rest of the video. Prior to this shot, Katy is climbing rope and we see her entire body. The lyrics of the song at this part of the video are:

    Throw your sticks and stones

    As “and stones” is being sung, the video switches into the next shot, which is a close-up of Katy’s wristwatch as she is still climbing up the rope. The lyrics, at this point, say:

    Throw your bombs and blows

    It then switches to the next shot at “and blows.” The close-up of the wristwatch coincides, then, with the lyrics about stones and bombs.

    Now, the video itself is a part of the propaganda machine of the Gadiantons, as demonstrated by the one-eye symbol shown at the end of the video in which Katy looks through the trigger of a rifle with only one of her eyes. (See the video at the 4:02 mark.) So, it has a blatant Gadianton symbol in it, in case there is any question about it.

    Gadiantons must mark themselves, or, I should say, all those cursed must mark themselves, following the scriptural pattern, and when the secret combination puts out plans, they must do so hidden in plain sight. In other words, the devil, like God, must make an announcement, a public announcement or warning, before destruction follows. But these public announcements, although in plain sight, are hidden by symbols, or are not understood by the masses, only by the initiates, which, in their view, is not the problem of the elite, it being the problem of the masses (for being so ignorant.)

    Anyway, this Katy Perry video and its curious wristwatch scene may be saying that “something big is going down” on October 11th, something that has to do with stones and bombs…

    [Edited to correct the wristwatch time from 10:06 to 10:11. Also, blowing up the video reveals that the wristwatch shows a calendar date of 10, as in the 10th day of the month.]

  87. I read this before and I was like, “mmmmhhh….maybe. I don’t know though.”

    Now, I can really see this happening. It makes sense. I have no revelation on the date. The scriptures speak of Jesus’ second coming as a thief in the night to those who are unprepared or as obvious as the seasons changing. This is the same for many things.

    To me, things have changed for me and I now see that these changes are happening. I brought up about the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled, because that point came to me. This has to do with all the things that are going on. I have been riding my bike to work lately and have had at least an hour each weekday to think and be more at peace (instead of blasting the radio in my car) and can think and meditate more up on all these issues.

    When Moses came down from the mountain, the earth split up…why not happen again? There are so many witnesses and prophecies of this as LDSA listed in this post. This really will be interesting.

  88. Re Katy Gadianton this is a part video (you like that rapid fire mix/compound?) the second hand on the clock is at 6.
    October 11 is a Thursday. I was always told Thursday was the day the 15 apostles always meet together. Is that the real day when the Church will change from the rule of the 15 to the rule of one. Perhaps one that was not taken and yet the one that was chosen to survive.
    Just idle speculation.

  89. I also have heard that they meet every Thursday.

  90. Okay as I traveled to a distant town in the back of a minivan today I was in and out of sleep and pondering. It hit me. There may be two dates on the watch in the video. One when the conference center falls and the other when the part two of the plan is accomplished, Mitt Romney a previous long shot LDS candidate becomes the honorable president elect. Nov 6th is election day. So you have 10/6 and 11/6 two parts of the same plot.

  91. LDSA, do you think that when the Lord commanded Samuel to obey the will of the people in choosing a king, it was after the majority of people explicitely voted to have a king? Or was it because the Lord knew the desire of the hearts of the majority of the people even without the actual voting and that was sufficient?

  92. Dropin, to me it looks like the people sent representatives of their will (the elders of Israel) to Samuel. So, this appears to have been a majority vote in which they took the initiative.

  93. The solar eclipse which occurred on May 20th is interesting. Chantdown told me It was most visible in SLC which they said was a “sweet spot” for it. I don’t know what that means but as Chantdown and I were talking about it I felt to check the significance of a full solar eclipse and it being in SLC and it being on May 20th.
    So I got a day count calculator on the internet and came up with these facts.
    The days between May 20th and Saturday Oct. 6th are 140 if you count Oct 6th.
    Then I saw that May 20th is the 141st day of the year. That makes from Jan 1, 2012 to May 20th exactly halfway to Oct 6th.
    I don’t know the spiritual significance of an eclipse other than the blatant fact that a solar eclipse is the covering of the sun which is the life of our planet and a symbol of the power of God or the blessings of God.
    Anybody have any thoughts on this?
    Also LDSA I just saw you comment on the inertialess rotor. I have to finish reading it but I have been working on a machine which is a motor generator which charges it own DC battery for a few years now. I know everyone thinks it is impossible yet the guy who made one doesn’t believe it is impossible. I am trying to find a simple and doable way to replicate that. But rather than use a 20 pound rotor I might be using an inertialess rotor which is in fact what a magnet is. That sounds crazy but I just this month learned of a guy who views magnets as a spinning rotor but not visible to us in this mortal view. I will finish reading your comment and get back to you.

  94. Here is a link for a sample of the motor the man built.

  95. Dear dyc4557,
    I followed the motor link and read the article/viewed the video, got hold of the book (but can’t make heads or tails of it due to lack of physics background).
    Is it possible to contact you, dyc4557 to ask some questions about your work on that machine? If yes, how?
    Can you go to LDSA’s wireclub page? Thanks.

  96. Yes I am there on wire club .

  97. Thomas Monson’s first talk in a general conference ironically references his final talk in general conference.

    He pledged his life to be what other people want him to be.

  98. I have watched this before and don’t remember if I noticed or thought of it in this light,
    but I think it is real wrong to live our lives trying to please people. I think we should be learning how to please God.

  99. Today they are grooming him [Monson] for the sacrifice…Fattening up his ego in celebration of his 85th birthday (which isnt till the 21st by the way)…focussing millions on his ‘Golden Days’…so that while Thomas and his adoring fans are caught in a nostalgic trance…they may take advantage of a New (Black) Moon to lend power to their ends and bring Monson like a lamb, steadily to the slaughter. They are calling it ‘Golden Days’ – ‘A Celebration of Life’…
    BUT…Retrospect for Life ….is not necessarily Respect for Life….

    Eyes to See and Ears to Hear will percieve the intentions behind the deceptive title….Its more like Fri. Aug. 17th 2012 – Dark Nights – A Preparation for Death.

    They are very shrewd and you know that they stand to make money off of this production in the future. Just like with Gordon B. Hinckley – Man of Integrity….or the aptly titled ‘ThIS IS It!’ (notice the word ISIS veiled between the two TTowers) video of Michael Jackson…or more recently with this ‘Sparkle’ movie featuring Whitney Houston.

    The Hunger Games ….a movie that foreshadows the Secret Combination’s plans for Monson and the Mormon people…is also set to release on dvd already….at midnight, a few hours after the president praising ceremonies end….the movie hit theatres the day after Monson performed the opening ceremonies for the huge City Creek Center Mall funded by The Church.

  100. A couple of days ago, I posted this at Zomarah’s blog:

    I’ve heard from several sources that Elder Russell M. Nelson has announced to a number of Stake Presidents that President Thomas M. Monson has received a revelation that will affect every man, woman, and child in the church. This revelation is supposed to be announced in the upcoming general conference.

    (Denver Snuffer, Sunday, September 23, 2012, Upcoming General Conference)

    After publishing the comment, I mentioned this information to my eldest daughter and she asked me whether the conference center destruction was going to happen this October.

    Her question made me ponder whether the earthquake I have been anticipating to occur before the conference center destruction will happen in the week before October General Conference.

    Later I read today’s Urban Survival blog, which had the following section:

    Waiting on Quakes

    No, the 6.4 this week up in the Aleutians is not the “hit” but while we wait for bigger things to come (possibly this weekend) there’s an interesting quake study out under the headline “Rare great earthquake in April triggers large aftershocks all over the globe…”

    Now, Urban Survival is always waiting for a big quake and always thinking one is right around the corner, even “possibly this weekend,” so that’s not really any news, but I thought it was peculiar that here I was pondering the likelihood of this, particular quake happening in the next seven days and then I read the above.

    Anyway, I followed the links that Urban Survival had on that April quake and found them interesting, so I’m posting them here:

    Rare Great Earthquake in April Triggers Large Aftershocks All Over the Globe
    by Staff Writers, Menlo Park, CA (SPX) Sep 27, 2012

    Study reveals complex rupture process in surprising 2012 Sumatra quake
    by Staff Writers, Santa Cruz, CA (SPX) Sep 27, 2012

    Indian Ocean’s 2012 mega-quake broke the records
    by Staff Writers, Paris (AFP) Sept 26, 2012

  101. Here is link from The Japan Times Online which claims that a study has been done by researchers that shows that a magnitude 10 earthquake is theoretically possible (in the area of Japan.)

    Magnitude 10 temblor could happen: study

    Here is an excerpt:

    A magnitude 10 quake would likely cause ground motions for up to an hour, with tsunami hitting while the shaking was still going on, according to the research. Tsunami would continue for several days, causing damage to several Pacific Rim nations.

    I think I remember seeing a Discovery or History Channel special on earthquakes in which it was said that a magnitude 10 quake was not possible. (Or maybe it was a magnitude 11 quake?) At any rate, this new research apparently sets the record straight about the possibility of mag 10’s.

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