This is my understanding of this section.
The section heading
Revelation and prophecy on war, given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, December 25, 1832. HC 1: 301–302. This section was received at a time when the brethren were reflecting and reasoning upon African slavery on the American continent and the slavery of the children of men throughout the world.
D&C 87, as currently written
1. Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2. And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4. And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5. And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6. And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7. That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8. Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen. (D&C 87)
In order to expound this prophecy, I will render a plainer translation.
TAV D&C 87; (TAV=The Anarchist Version)
Truly, this is what the Lord says concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls—and the time will come that war will be poured out upon all non-Israelite tribes (States), beginning at South Carolina, for see, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other non-Israelite tribes (States), even the non-Israelite tribe (State) of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other non-Israelite tribes (States), in order to defend themselves against other non-Israelite tribes (States); and then war shall be poured out upon all non-Israelite tribes (States)—and it shall come to pass, after many days, those who are ruled shall violently overthrow their rulers, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
And it shall also come to pass that the Israelite remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the non-Israelite tribes (in tribal anarchies) with a sore vexation.
And in this way, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and also the fierce and vivid lightning, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed has made a full end of all non-Israelite tribes; that the cry of the set-apart ones, and of the blood of the set-apart ones, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Armies, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
Wherefore, stand, all of you, in set-apart places, and do not allow yourselves to be moved, until the day of the Lord come; for see, it comes quickly, says the Lord. Amen. (TAV D&C 87, changes in italics)
TAV D&C 87, in verses
1. Truly, this is what the Lord says concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls—
2. and the time will come that war will be poured out upon all non-Israelite tribes (States), beginning at South Carolina, for see, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other non-Israelite tribes (States), even the non-Israelite tribe (State) of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other non-Israelite tribes (States), in order to defend themselves against other non-Israelite tribes (States); and then war shall be poured out upon all non-Israelite tribes (States)—
3. and it shall come to pass, after many days, those who are ruled shall violently overthrow their rulers, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
4. And it shall also come to pass that the Israelite remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the non-Israelite tribes (in tribal anarchies) with a sore vexation.
5. And in this way, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and also the fierce and vivid lightning, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed has made a full end of all non-Israelite tribes; that the cry of the set-apart ones, and of the blood of the set-apart ones, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Armies, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
6. Wherefore, stand, all of you, in set-apart places, and do not allow yourselves to be moved, until the day of the Lord come; for see, it comes quickly, says the Lord. Amen. (TAV D&C 87, changes in italics)
D&C 87: 1 and TAV D&C 87: 1—The War Between The States
1. Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; (D&C 87: 1)
1. Truly, this is what the Lord says concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls— (TAV D&C 87: 1)
This seems to me to be fairly self-explanatory, but taking this single verse alone might confuse the matter. D&C 87: 1-4 (which is paragraph 1 of TAV D&C 87 or, if you prefer, TAV D&C 87: 1-3) is a complete prophetic thought. Although verse 1 is mentioning The War Between The States (known to Northerners as The Civil War and to some Southerners as The War of Northern Aggression), the whole prophetic message is that The War Between The States is the beginning of the end of all States. The War Between The States was fought over the rights of man, and more specifically over the right of secession, but only started the struggle that would ultimately end in tribal anarchy (freedom) for humanity in D&C 87: 4. (See Abraham Lincoln for more information about The War Between The States.)
D&C 87: 2 and TAV D&C 87: 2 — The War Between The States Begins
2. And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. (D&C 87: 2)
2. and the time will come that war will be poured out upon all non-Israelite tribes (States), beginning at South Carolina, (TAV D&C 87: 2)
“nations” — The words “nations” and “Gentiles” are synonymous to the prophetic mind. Originally, the word “Gentiles” simply meant “nations,” regardless of which one, but later it referred only to non-Israelite nations. To the ancients, though, a “nation” wasn’t the modern State we think of. Nations were tribes. The prophets of all ages, who have prophesied of the Gentiles, have always referred to non-Israelite tribes. Joseph, however, being both a true prophet of God who understood the ancient use of the terms, and a citizen of a modern State who understood the modern use of the terms, choose his words carefully, when using “nation” and “Gentile” in this prophecy, to key us in as to what this prophecy was talking about. “Nations,” therefore, in this verse is referring to non-Israelite tribes that are established (or tied to the land) under (or by) State governments.
“this place” — The place being referred to is the place mentioned in verse 1, namely, South Carolina. The Prophet is associating South Carolina with the nations that would have war poured out upon them, because, to the prophetic mind, South Carolina is a nation. In other words, the State of South Carolina is really a non-Israelite tribe established (meaning they are land-owners, or tied to the land, which is why they are also known as a place) as a State government. The Prophet could have worded it as follows and it would have retained the same meaning:
“and the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at the nation of South Carolina“
D&C 87: 3 and TAV D&C 87: 2—The War Between The States Morphs into World Wars Between The States
3. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations. (D&C 87: 3)
2. for see, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other non-Israelite tribes (States), even the non-Israelite tribe (State) of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other non-Israelite tribes (States), in order to defend themselves against other non-Israelite tribes (States); and then war shall be poured out upon all non-Israelite tribes (States)— (TAV D&C 87: 2)
“nations” — Like the previous verse, all uses of the word “nation” or “nations” here are referring to State governments, meaning non-Israelite tribes established (as landowners) under State governments.
“war shall be poured out upon all nations” — Eventually, all these State governments will be fighting amongst themselves. In other words, this is World War but still among the States. To be clearer still, all of this is but an extension of The War Between The States, as the World Wars will still be Wars Between States.
D&C 87: 4 and TAV D&C 87: 3—The End of the States and Beginning of Tribal Anarchy
4. And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war. (D&C 87: 4)
3. and it shall come to pass, after many days, those who are ruled shall violently overthrow their rulers, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war. (TAV D&C 87: 3)
“slaves” — This refers to those who are ruled in the States.
“rise up against” — Although the prophecy only states that the slaves will openly oppose the masters, as in armed conflict, my understanding is that the slaves, which vastly outnumber the masters, will defeat them, therefore I have rendered this saying as “violently overthrow,” to indicate the result of this revolution.
“masters” — This refers to those who rule the States.
“who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war” — The armies of the States will be overcome by the people themselves and these many (oppressive) State governments and military dictatorships will topple, bringing about a new world order of tribal anarchies.
D&C 87: 5 and TAV D&C 87: 4—The Indians Get Their Revenge
5. And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation. (D&C 87: 5)
4. And it shall also come to pass that the Israelite remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the non-Israelite tribes (in tribal anarchies) with a sore vexation. (TAV D&C 87: 4)
“remnants” — This refers to the descendants of the Nephite/Lamanite civilizations.
“shall become exceedingly angry” — The Gentiles, now living in tribal anarchy, are going to do something so exceedingly bad to the Indians, that the Indians will be fairly berserk with anger towards them.
“shall vex” — Once the non-Israelite tribes destroy the States which held them captive, they will no longer have the protection afforded them by the military might of the State. As a result, when the Indians decide to repay them for the wrongs done to them by the white man, wrongs committed both in the present and the past, the Gentiles will fall before them. This verse speaks of the same event recorded in 3 Nephi 21: 12-13.
“the Gentiles” — The phrase “the Gentiles” is synonymous with “the nations,” but Joseph used Gentiles here instead of “nations” to indicate that the Gentiles would be in tribal anarchies when this part of the prophecy was fulfilled. Joseph walked a fine line between what the modern man understood and what the ancient man understood by the terms “Gentiles” and “nations” and the wording is, I believe, sufficiently clear, but I’ve rendered it plainer still.
D&C 87: 6 and TAV D&C 87: 5—The End of the Gentile Tribes
6. And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations; (D&C 87: 6)
5. And in this way, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and also the fierce and vivid lightning, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed has made a full end of all non-Israelite tribes; (TAV D&C 87: 5)
“sword…bloodshed” — Although there will be bloodshed on both sides, Gentiles killing Israelites, Israelites killing Gentiles, the lion’s share of bloodshed will be Gentiles killing Gentiles. These wicked tribes will kill each other off. This will be one of the ways that the Lord will use to protect his people from destruction.
“famine” — There will be famine caused by man, and also famine caused by God (the hailstorms.)
“plague” — There will be plague caused by man, and also plague (the scourge) caused by God.
“earthquake…thunder…lightning” — With plasma discharges, both planetary and interplanetary, the Lord will first chasten the Gentiles, to perhaps cause some to repent, and then destroy them off the face of the earth.
“wrath” — The Lord’s wrath will be kindled against the wicked, unrepentant Gentiles because they fight against and seek the destruction of his people.
“indignation” — The Lord will be indignant because the Gentiles will refuse to repent and accept the sacrifice of God’s Only Begotten Son, making a mockery of God’s plan to save them. Despite the mighty words of God brought forth to the Gentiles in the new records, the wicked Gentiles will reject them.
“chastening” — In spite of their obstinancy, the Lord will do all things he can to get them to repent, until he can no longer stay his hand and must return to Earth at the appointed time, meaning that those who are not in the proper (safe) places, and in the proper spiritual state, will be burnt up at the brightness of his coming.
“consumption decreed” — This is talking about the Second Coming, which will consume many people.
“nations” — This refers to the non-Israelite tribes who refuse to repent and gather to Zion. Those that repent will be numbered with the tribes of Israel. You could substitute the word “Gentiles” here so that it reads, “a full end of all Gentiles.” It means the same thing. Joseph probably chose the word “nations” instead of Gentiles because it sounds pretty harsh that the Gentiles will be consumed. But, the meaning is not that the Gentiles will be destroyed, but that all unrepentant people will be destroyed, while all repentant people will live. The unrepentant are not numbered with the house of Israel, and in fact, they fight the house of Israel and Zion, therefore these people are Gentiles; while the repentant people become Israelites and thus cease to be Gentiles.
Again, it sounds harsh, this repent or die doctrine, but that is only because we do not, yet, have the full Nephite record, which will cause a great division among the people. When that record is revealed, no man will be left without excuse. They will either reject the Lord openly, calling the Sun at noonday darkness, or accept Him with full purpose of heart. There will be no middle ground. It will polarize everyone.
D&C 87: 7 and TAV D&C 87: 5—The Reason the Gentiles will be Destroyed
7. That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies. (D&C 87: 7)
5. that the cry of the set-apart ones, and of the blood of the set-apart ones, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Armies, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies. (TAV D&C 87: 5)
“saint” — The term “saint” signifies one who is set apart for a sacred purpose. The term “holy” also means the same thing.
“cry…blood” — The Gentiles, living in tribal anarchy after the end of their State governments, and after the Nephite record is revealed, who reject the message, shall fight against the people of the Lord, spilling their blood and causing the people to call upon the Lord for vengeance. This is the reason why they are destroyed. Had they merely left Zion alone, the Lord would have left them alone. But as the Nephite record will be polarizing in its effect, those who reject it will desire and seek the destruction of those who accept it, necessitating the intervention of the Lord of Armies.
“Lord of Sabaoth” — This is a title of Jehovah that means Lord of Hosts, hosts meaning armies, as in both the armies of Israel and the angelic armies of heaven. The Lord, acting as the Lord of Armies, will utilize both the mortal Israelite armies to afflict the unrepentant Gentiles, as well as the angelic armies of heaven, in the last days. (See 3 Nephi 20: 16-17 for the work the angelic armies will do.)
D&C 87: 8 and TAV D&C 87: 6—Establishment of Zion and Her Stakes is Our Only Hope
8. Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen. (D&C 87: 8)
6. Wherefore, stand, all of you, in set-apart places, and do not allow yourselves to be moved, until the day of the Lord come; for see, it comes quickly, says the Lord. Amen. (TAV D&C 87: 6)
“holy places” — This is referring to Zion and her stakes, which are places set apart for sacred purposes. Temples also fall into this category, as temples are at the heart of any stake of Zion.
“be not moved” — This is the same as saying, “become established” or “fixed.” It is referring to land ownership. It is referring to the gathering of Israel and the restoration of them to the lands of their inheritance.
Okay, I think that I’ve expounded enough for today.
Complete List of Articles authored by LDS Anarchist
15 Comments
LDS Anarchy 
“Stand ye in holy places”. If the present Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is in a state of apostasy, as has been demonstrated by OWIW, in all his posts. Then where are the holy places? And if all the temples are null in void, because the Church is not practicing the Law of Consecration, and because the Nauvoo Temple was never completed (which means we were rejected as a church with all our dead), what use are our temples?
Will the Holy places be established by Joseph and Sidney, when they return?
Just Peachy:
I believe that the church has greatly fallen away from the restored truth and every day draws closer and closer to Babylon. This does not mean that the Lord has not reveled truth through the temple and in the church.
While I believe that standing in Holy places in its basest form is creating holiness in your life and home, you also can still find holiness in the temple of God. The temple in the end may very well bring damnation on some and salvation to others. Damnation for changing the ordinances and not appreciating the truth taught in it, and salvation for those that attend and seek to learn in spite of the presence of imperfection.
Remember, even when over come with money changers in Christ’s time, the temple was still considered holy by our Savior.
Don’t reject all the Lord has given because man has corrupted many of the ordinances. We are expected to live what we know. Use personal revelation to revel truth and then live that truth.
Make your life a holy place.
I liked the article. I especially liked the linked article about Abraham Lincoln. I am a big fan of Mises.org, diLorenzo is somewhat affiliated with that group so I have heard him before.
Troy
What is important is to expound on what exactly is the definition of the word “holy”.
LDS Anarchy defines holiness as being “set apart”. I also say that the word derives from the word “whole”. So another definition is “holiness is a state of not only being ‘set apart’, but also a state of being whole and complete”. A holy place is a place that exhibits as an attribute a state of wholeness and completion.
I see that this is why it was stressed by the Lord that the Nauvoo Temple be completed: so that it could truly be called “a holy place”.
As is recorded in the scriptures, the Lord said that if the Saints did not complete the Nauvoo Temple, the Lord would reject the church with all our dead. I know many endowments were hastily performed in it before it was completed. Endowments were even performed while the saints were starting their trek westward.
Perhaps the act of performing a sacred and holy ordinance inside of a building that the Lord commanded to be finished, but was not (meaning, it was unholy) was a desecration to the Lord. I know that Boyd K Packer has twice said that the temple was completed; but those who research the subject can clearly ascertain that it was not.
It seems that all the other temples have been built on top of that one incompletion. In other words, we, as a church have not been responsible for the incompletion of that edifice. Our forefathers, through the act of performing endowments in an unfinished building, have called something incomplete, and lacking wholeness, as being holy “enough” (if there can be such a thing) to perform the most “holy” of all ordinances: the endowment.
It appears that we have built temples and labeled them holy without completing and being responsible for what our forefathers (and our current leaders) have brushed over, and swept under the carpet. This could even be a trespass against the Lord that has not been properly reconciled.
It states in Section 98:47 “But if the children shall repent, or the children’s children [that would be us], and turn to the Lord their God, with all their hearts and with all their might, mind, and strength, and restore four-fold for all their trespasses wherewith they have trespassed, or wherewith their fathers have trespassed, or their fathers’ fathers, then [mine] indignation shall be turned away;”
To make our current temples “holy places”, the desecration of our second, (and even our first) temple must be properly reconciled.
OWIW has quoted another scripture, I believe it is Section 125, or 128, that says that our work for the dead will not be acknowledged by the Lord if we are not living the Law of Consecration. Early in our history, we traded living the Law of Consecration for the banking industry. Today, we even have a bank called Zion’s National Bank.
A nice feeling does not make a place holy. I have felt feelings of peace while I am in the temple, but feelings can be deceptive. For this reason the Lord says, “I will tell you in your mind and in your heart.” We cannot call something “Holy” just because it has a nice feeling attached. It also has to make sense to our minds. Sometimes we honor our feelings and do not honor being responsible.
I also feel that just because we have rebuilt the Nauvoo Temple, that that doesn’t properly reconcile not having completed the first edifice “on time”.
I have not put my children in public school because I consider the source of the public school system which is funded by enforced taxation to make that system rotten to its core. The doctrine of the priesthood cannot be present there when the core of the system is corrupt (The doctrine of the priesthood “flows without compulsory means; see Section 121).
Perhaps this analogy can also be applied to our temples. All our work for the dead is not acknowledged because our whole system is built on corruption, and a lack of responsibility that was exhibited by our forefathers. this has never been reconciled. Rather than covering all this up with more temple building, perhaps we should don sackcloth and ashes and seek from the Lord the gift of repentance for our negligence, and the negligence of our “father’s fathers”.
So I ask again “Where are the holy places”?
Just Peachy, the section referred to by OWIW was section 85. However, it does not mean “that our work for the dead will not be acknowledged by the Lord if we are not living the Law of Consecration.” When I return later, I’ll give my understanding of that epistle.
Thanks, I was looking throughout those two sections and couldn’t find it.
Okay, Just Peachy, about section 85. My understanding is that Joseph was having problems with the bishop in Zion, Bishop Edward Partridge. He was not fulfilling his calling the way that he was told to do so by God. He was supposed to receive consecrations of the saints and appoint to them their inheritances. In other words, he was supposed to appoint inheritances ONLY by consecration. Bishop Partridge wasn’t doing this. Some members were arriving and not entering into the law of consecration, yet obtaining inheritances from the bishop nonetheless. In other words, he was capitulating to these people, as they refused to deed over their property. Joseph, in frustration that the bishop wasn’t acting as he was supposed to, wrote to W. W. Phelps, the editor of the Evening and Morning Star publication, who published parts of the letter.
So, the revelation doesn’t mean that if we are not living the law of consecration, our temple work is invalid, it means that if we have received an inheritance by means other than consecration, we and our posterity are screwed. In other words, the revelation is talking about the way inheritances are received, and condemning those who do it in the wrong manner. Last I checked, no modern bishop of the church is appointing inheritances in Zion and last I checked, no LDS has received an inheritance in Zion by a bishop, therefore, these verse DO NOT APPLY TO MODERN LDS. When inheritances in Zion are again appointed to saints by bishops, it must be done in the way specified in this revelation. Until that happens, you needn’t lose sleep over this issue.
Just Peachy, I am not picking on you. I’m just wondering about another thing you stated in your comment, concerning the church being rejected because they did not complete the Nauvoo temple. I’m sure you are referring to D&C 124: 32 (which was given on 19 January 1841), which states:
I don’t usually quote from church manuals, but the D&C Institute manual states the following:
Is the Institute manual incorrect? If it is not incorrect and the font was finished and baptisms recommenced on 21 November 1841, then the church was not rejected, as the saints fulfilled the conditions, namely, that they perform the baptisms for the dead after the appointed time was over. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
Dear LDS Anarchy,
Thank you for your kind welcome in your last post to me… and thank you for taking the time to explain you views on section 87. Your views are interesting.
I absolutely love that you provide a platform for discussion! There are not very many places where you can go and have discussion and differences of opinion and that we can see each other’s opinion and after prayerful study, we can agree or disagree. What a blessing to have an open forum. How delightful to be able to articulate our opinions and prove them through the scriptures.
First – Mrs. W., I’m glad to find that you enjoy the blog. Hopefully, it continues to prove useful to you and others. Thanks for the compliments.
Second – I wanted to mention and link to a video I came across today. It covers the State and its relationship to society; it talks about anarchy, especially the Spanish anarchists, the corporate institutions, the media, the relationship between psychopaths and corporations, propaganda, wage slavery, presuppositions, the worship of the State, intellectuals, professional sports and many other power and hierarchical structures and centers and the effects of that power on the population at large.
The video is important to the discussion of D&C 87 because the more one understands about the nature of the State, the more one understands the causes that will lead up to the overthrow of the State found in D&C 87: 4, as well as to why the prophesied tribal anarchies must come. I recommend that all who enter this blog view the video. Here is is:
The Evilness of Power
Third – I’d like to mention an article I recently came across which also applies to a discussion of D&C 87. It explains the inherent strengths and stability of tribal anarchy, but also gives the one weakness it has that can cause it to revert back to some from of a State. Although the States will be dissolved during the events of D&C 87: 4, this does not mean that all of the tribal anarchies will remain in anarchy. My understanding is that there will be attempts at the recreation of States among some of the anarchies. The following article explains what can cause this to happen.
Has the State Always Been There? How Tribal Anarchy Works
Dear Just Peachy,
I sure enjoyed your comments and appreciated your points.
You stated;
“So I ask again “Where are the holy places”?
I hope you will forgive me for interjecting my thoughts since you seemed to be directing your comments to the Anarchist..
As I have read the articles of OWIW and studied with him and on my own, I have come to the belief that God very clearly identified the holy places of gathering where amazing things did take place in the 2nd watch and will take place in the 3rd watch. They are places like Kirtland, Jackson, Far West, and Nauvoo. However, it is one thing for the sacred places to be identified, it is quite another for them to be made holy.
The scriptures received through the Prophet Joseph Smith give us the great secret about HOW these sacred places are to become sanctified;
D&C 119
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.
6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you.
7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen.
From this we find that the holy places become sanctified when the Saints obey his laws including consecration upon the designated places of gathering.
There is another point I would like to make regarding the redemption of the dead and the church manual used in another reply as an authority on the topic;
The manual is paraphrasing D.H.C.4:426 “There shall be no more baptisms for the dead, until the ordinance can be attended to in the Lord’s House; and the Church shall not hold another General Conference, until they can meet in said house. For thus saith the Lord!” (Oct. 3,1841)
That particular quote by a church apologist in the “Church Manual” is suggesting that the issue pertaining to the dead in section 124 is whether the “font” is completed. However I think the real issue which is clearly laid out in section 124 and in the History of the Church was whether the Lord’s House was completed by the appointed time.
While the manual is paraphrasing from the history of the Church, it seems to be leaving out the importance of completing the Temple while adding the focus on the font.
The opinion from the manual doesn’t appear to use scriptures or quotes to back up the point being made.
On October 23,1841 on page 440 of D.H.C. it states, “President Young, Elders Taylor and Richards, then made some very appropriate remarks, showing and proving the absolute necessity of finishing and completing the House of the Lord now building in Nauvoo, in preference to anything else that can be done, either by mental or physical exertion, in spreading light, knowledge, and intelligence among the nations of the earth.”
“This font was built for the baptisms for the dead until the Temple shall be finished, when a more durable one will supply its place.” Nov 8, 1841 page 446-7 D.H.C.
Finally, the clincher to knowing whether or not the Nauvoo temple was completed or not is in D&C124:45 The saints would not be moved out of their place if they hearken to the voice of His Servants.
Back in 1992 the OWIW wrote a book entitled “The Apostasy and Redemption of Latter day Israel”. It was over 100 pages with nearly 400 references from the scriptures and LDS Church History. Approximately one tenth of it covered the topic of the failure of the Church to finish the Nauvoo Temple.
There is a wealth of information pertaining to this topic in his book.
I have scanned those pages and put them at the following link for you and anyone else that might be interested in studying this issue a little deeper;
http://www.specialoffersbulletinboard.org/unfinishedtempleandnauvoohouse.htm
Again, thanks for sharing your thoughtful observations.
And Thank You!
Thank you for answering very succinctly my question, without feeling a need to defend the church.
From your answer, I also get that we can’t properly pay tithing without living the law of Consecration. Am I correct?
I also get that there are no “holy places” unless the Law of Consecration is being lived fully.
I also get that I can’t live the Law of Consecration by myself. It has to be under the direction of the Lord, and his annointed.
Wow! Thanks for the link.
Dear Just Peachy,
Here are some ideas on your questions:
You said:
“From your answer, I also get that we can’t properly pay tithing without living the law of Consecration. Am I correct?”
My study on this topic indicates to me that the word “tithing” is often, if not always synonymous with the word consecration when used in the scriptures. Additionally, after one is tithed, or consecrated, they are to continue paying one-tenth of their “interest” annually.
If the Lords Church is living a lesser law at this time and is encouraging it members to pay a tenth as a preparatory law prior to the implementation of the true law of consecration, that is of course a personal decision between you and the Lord.
Here is some of the scriptural documentation I have found in my study:
Section119:1 states that the Lord requires all our surplus (that which remains when use is satisfied) property. Then he states that that is the beginning of the tithing of his people.
In each parenthesis is the Webster’s 1828 definitions.
Vs. 4 states; “after that, those who have thus (to this degree or extent) been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest (any surplus advantage) annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.”
It appears we must give all except what we need to live, first, and then from then on one tenth of any surplus advantage.
You said:
“I also get that there are no “holy places” unless the Law of Consecration is being lived fully.”
That is what the scriptures appear to be saying.
I believe the book of Malachi to be a last- days expose on Latter-day Israel. It tells us that latter day Israel robs the Lord in tithes and offerings. Have we not done that by rejecting the law of consecration? Have we not been “partial in the law” as Malachi observes?
Is this not what the Lord was alluding to in section 84?
D&C 84: 57
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
You also said:
“I also get that I can’t live the Law of Consecration by myself. It has to be under the direction of the Lord, and his anointed.”
It appears that way to me. To live the law of consecration in its fulness, it must be with the body of Christ’s Church and it must be under the direction of the proper priesthood authority.
A person named Vanka commented at a Washington Post article — giving a shout-out to the LDS Anarchy blog:
I got around to putting up DAC 87 on the 1st Act Scriptures blog, and sure enough, there appear (to me) to be two voices in it. I am half-way tempted to re-do the above post and replace the D&C 87 quotes with DAC 87 material, since the DAC version seems so much plainer to me, but I guess I’ll just leave everything as is. People can see the new version by clicking the above link.
As I started to read this post again, nearly four years having past since I wrote it, I wondered if I would still agree with what I wrote. Well, it turns out that I do see something that I would change.
In the TAV, I wrote above, “that the cry of the set-apart ones, and of the blood of the set-apart ones, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Armies, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.” That could have been worded a little better, such as, “that the cry–of the set-apart ones who yet live, and of the set-apart ones who have been killed–to be avenged of their enemies, shall cease to come up from the earth into the ears of the Lord of Armies.” Or something to that effect. The construction is kind of hard to nail down in modern English. It sounds so Hebraic the way Joseph wrote it, like a machine or direct translation. (Which is one of the reasons why I like his revelations.) The TAV was my attempt to make the text plainer, as far as English speakers (who don’t know Hebrew) were concerned. So, seeing that I left “that the cry…of the blood of the set-apart ones” in there, well, that ain’t no English construction. That sounds like Hebrew, to my ear. It’s understandable (at least, it is understandable to me,) that it is speaking of martyred saints who are crying to the Lord from paradise for vengeance, but it may not be so plain to others. So, I probably ought to have changed the construction a little bit, to make it plainer.
Also, back in 2009, I didn’t notice the two voices in the text. I didn’t see that when the Lord speaks, He talks of earthly wars, meaning wars between humans. And when the other voice speaks (the voice of the Spirit), She elaborates on the prophecy of the earthly wars and goes into the warfare that the Lord will wage with His divine powers. You can see this plainly in DAC 87, that They speak off Each Other. (Not sure how to capitalize that…) In these DAC revelations, One starts a thought, the Other finishes it, the First goes off on a tangent, the Second agrees and brings it back in, or goes further off on the same or different tangent, interjecting new thoughts right in the middle of the Other’s thoughts, even in mid-sentence. It’s like two separate people with the same mind; distinct, yet in total agreement with each other. It’s both bizarre and beautiful, at the same time, like a harmonious dance in which you never know what’s coming next, for it is always going to be a surprise maneuver.
Some of these texts have three or more voices. Sometimes the Spirit will quote the Lord, who will then speak the words of the Father. Then you get prophets who also add their own voice in there, like Isaiah does, so that you get at least four voices, or even more if angels are quoted or quotations of other prophets are also in the text. Despite the speaker, though, the mind is the same. Okay, I see now that I have gone off on a tangent…