3 Nephi 21, expounded


This is my understanding of this chapter, expounded verse by verse, beginning with the chapter heading.

The chapter heading

The chapter heading reads as follows:

Israel shall be gathered when the Book of Mormon comes forth—The Gentiles shall be established as a free people in America—They shall be saved if they believe and obey; otherwise they shall be cut off and destroyed—Israel shall build the New Jerusalem, and the lost tribes shall return. [A.D. 34]

For the most part, whoever wrote this heading got it right.  However, the first statement is incorrect.  Israel shall not be gathered when the Book of Mormon comes forth.  The Book of Mormon came forth (or was published) in 1830.  That was about 179 years ago.  Now, ask yourself, during the past 179 years, was/is Israel gathered?  (The answer is no.)  How about the church?  Is the church in a gathered or scattered state presently?  (The answer is scattered.)  So, this heading is obviously incorrect.

Verse 1 – A sign unto the remnant of Jacob

And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

“these things” — The Lord here is talking about the gathering, in which Israel is restored to the lands of their inheritance and Zion is established among them.  The sign will show to the remnant of Jacob that the gathering of Israel and the establishment of Zion is about to take place. In other words, the sign occurs first, the gathering of Israel and establishment of Zion occurs second. (The Lord began talking about this gathering in 3 Nephi 20.)  Note: the description of the sign takes up seven verses (3 Nephi 21: 1-7.)

Verse 2 – The unabridged record of the Savior’s Nephite ministry

And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them;

“these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father” — The “these things” referred to by the Savior is not the abridgment of the Savior’s Nephite ministry which we have in the Book of Mormon, which apparently was the assumption made by whoever wrote the chapter heading, but the unabridged record found on the Large Plates of Nephi.

“shall be made known unto the Gentiles” — The unabridged record of the Savior’s ministry among the Nephites is to first go to the Gentiles.

Verse 3 – Unabridged record goes first to Gentiles

Verily, verily, I say unto you, when these things shall be made known unto them of the Father, and shall come forth of the Father, from them unto you;

“from them unto you” — The unabridged record is to first come forth and be shown to the Gentiles and then the Gentiles will bring it to the remnant of Jacob.

Verse 4 – Anarchy must reign among Gentiles

For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;

“established in this land” — At some point the Gentiles would come into the land and become established here.  This has already occurred.

“be set up as a free people by the power of the Father” — The government of the Gentiles would be broken up at some point and they would be brought into tribal anarchy.  This is still a future event. Some have assumed that this event referred to the establishment of the Constitution of the United States and the independence of Americans from Great Britain.  However, the Lord here is talking about the Second Act (the Strange Act), not the First Act.

“that these things might come forth” — Tribal anarchy must first come to the Gentiles because their system of government and their man-made laws are incompatible with the laws of the Savior given in the unabridged record of his Nephite ministry.  The Lord’s people would not be able to live the laws in that record while under the Gentile governmental system because that system would prohibit them from doing so.  So, the order of the prophecy is that first the Gentiles come here and establish themselves (erecting their own forms of government), then their governments are broken up and they enter into the freedom of tribal anarchy, and finally the unabridged record comes forth.

“a free people” — Here are some other prophecies that speak of the same time and event when the Gentiles shall become a free people:

“And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.”  (D&C 87: 4)

“Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand?”  (D&C 38: 22)

Verse 5 – Unabridged record taken by Gentiles to remnant of Jacob

Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;

“these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter” — This refers to the unabridged record.

Verse 6 – Gentiles given a last chance to repent

For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

“that they may be numbered among my people” — This is the final chance of the Gentiles to peacefully repent, prior to the gathering of Israel.  If they believe the unabridged record and repent, they become Israelites and are gathered with the remnant.  If they do not believe the record, they are to be bound into bundles and burned.  Everything hinges upon the reaction to the unabridged record.  Nephi had view of this last, unabridged record coming forth when he wrote:

For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.  (1 Nephi 14: 7)

When Nephi wrote the following, he had view of the numbering of Israel in that day when the unabridged record (and other records which will come forth) would be shown to the Gentiles and Jews:

For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son, who is the Holy One of Israel.  (2 Nephi 30: 2)

Verse 7 – When remnant receives unabridged record, it will be a sign to them

And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.

Verse 8 – The reaction of kings

And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

“when that day shall come” — The day referred to here is the day that the remnant of Israel receives the unabridged record, which is the day that the sign is manifest.

“it shall come to pass” — This is after the sign is manifest.

“kings shall shut their mouths” — The Savior here is paraphrasing Isaiah 52: 15, which says:

So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

The reason why the kings will be so awed into silence is because they will witness the gathering of Israel, which must come by the miraculous power of the Father.

Verse 9 – The marvelous work occurs during this time period, not before

For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

“in that day” — The day referred to here is the day that the unabridged record comes forth.  The Lord here is referring to the Second Act (the Strange Act).  The First Act is when the Book of Mormon comes forth, which is a preparatory (D&C 133: 58 ) record.  It is the Strange Second Act which is known as the great and marvelous work, or the marvelous work and a wonder, etc., not the First Act.

“and there shall be among them those who will not believe it” — Despite the convincing power of the unabridged record (see 1 Nephi 14: 7) and the many signs and manifestations of the power of God, as well as the testimony of prophets, leaving them without excuse, there will be many who will disbelieve the record.

“although a man shall declare it unto them” — Prophets will again be in the land.

Verse 10 – Angels and messengers of heaven will be sent

But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

“my servant” — The Savior is here expounding upon Isaiah 52: 13-14.  Although the noun is singular, it encompasses every Elias that will participate in gathering Israel and restoring all things, including the Elias who heads up this dispensation.  Isaiah 52: 7, although singular, is read the same way:

How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Verse 11 – Already expounded here

Verses 12 and 13 -Unrepentant Gentiles shall be vexed by remnant of Jacob

And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.  Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

This will happen after the Gentiles reject the words of Christ found in the unabridged record.  This is to stir them up to repentance.  The Lord has used the Lamanites in this manner before.  (See 2 Nephi 5: 25.)  Another prophecy that talks of the same event is found here:

And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.  (D&C 87: 5)

(Not all Gentiles, though, will reject the words of Christ.  The above will only happen to those Gentiles who are unrepentant and reject the Lord’s words.  The other Gentiles, who repent, become numbered with Israel and gathered.)

Verses 14 to 21 – Utter destruction upon the still unrepentant Gentiles

Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots; and I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds; and I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers; thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands; and I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel; and I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

“wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent — After the vexation, which will be to stir the Gentiles up to repentance, which will be their very last chance to turn from their evil ways, the Gentiles who still remain unrepentant will be destroyed.

“whosoever will not repent” — This destruction will come upon the unrepentant among both the Jews and Gentiles.  It will be even according to Nephi’s words in 2 Nephi 30: 2.

Verse 22 – Establishment of church and covenant people of the Lord

But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

“establish my church among them” — The repentant Gentiles, for this verse is speaking of the Gentiles, who believe the unabridged record will become the church of the Lamb of God spoken of by Nephi (see 1 Nephi 14) and will be numbered with with Israel and become part of the covenant (to be gathered) that the Father made with Israel.  This land (America) will be their land of gathering.

Verse 23 – The repentant Gentiles will assist the remnant of Jacob in building the New Jerusalem, not the other way around

And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

“they shall assist my people” — It is commonly thought among LDS that it will be the Lamanites who assist the Gentile LDS to build the New Jerusalem, despite what the Savior says here.  In other words, that the LDS will be the chief builders of the New Jerusalem while the Lamanites will be their helpers.  This is because interpreters of this scripture cannot see that conditions will change among men and that this scripture will be literally fulfilled, as it is written.  The converted Lamanites and others of the house of Israel (by lineage) will be the chief builders of the New Jerusalem, while the Gentile converts (Israelites by adoption) will be their assistants.

“that they may build a city” — The New Jerusalem will be built prior to the Lord’s Second Coming, not after as many LDS believe.  It must and will be built first, before the Israelites are gathered in under the Lord’s wings, as a place of refuge and defense from the storms that will usher in the Lord’s Second Coming.

Verse 24 -The Gentiles will assist the remnant of Jacob in gathering those scattered

And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

This work of gathering happens after the New Jerusalem is built, not before.  All of these events occur prior to the Lord’s Second Coming.

Verse 25 -The saints will be endowed with power and enter into presence of the Lord

And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

This is when the following scripture will be fulfilled:

And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God; and the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.

And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.

For when the Lord shall appear he shall be terrible unto them, that fear may seize upon them, and they shall stand afar off and tremble.

And all nations shall be afraid because of the terror of the Lord, and the power of his might. Even so. Amen.  (D&C 45: 66-71, 74-75)

Verse 26 – Back to the sign, the lost tribes of Israel

And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.

“at that day” — The Lord here is coming back to the sign.  The day He is indicating is the day that the unabridged record goes to the remnant of Jacob.

“among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost” — The Lost Ten Tribes must return with their prophets and their scriptures before the Lord’s Second Coming.  Nephi spoke of this in 2 Nephi 29.  The gathering of Israel, all of Israel, will occur prior to the Lord’s advent.

Verse 27 – First, Israel to be restored to Christ

Yea, the work shall commence among all the dispersed of my people, with the Father to prepare the way whereby they may come unto me, that they may call on the Father in my name.

“all the dispersed of my people” — This is Israel in its scattered state, prior to the gathering.

“with the Father to prepare the way” — The Book of Mormon and events of the First act are part of that preparation.

“whereby they may come unto me, that they may call on the Father in my name” — The records that go forth to the scattered Israelites will convert them to Christ.

Verse 28 – Second, converted Israelites to be restored (gathered) to lands of inheritance

Yea, and then shall the work commence, with the Father among all nations in preparing the way whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance.

The gathering does not occur until Israel is converted to Christ.  Only after their conversion does the Father covenant to gather them, not before. (See 2 Nephi 30: 2.)  Once they are in the covenant, and have accepted the new records, they will be gathered.

“with the Father among all nations in preparing the way” — Again, the First Act is a preparatory act, but there will be a further preparation during the Second Act.

Verse 29 – The Gathering

And they shall go out from all nations; and they shall not go out in haste, nor go by flight, for I will go before them, saith the Father, and I will be their rearward.

I think that verse is fairly plain.  No exposition needed, except maybe to say that the gathering will not occur by car or plane (“not go out in haste, nor go by flight.”)

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73 Comments

  1. building the New Jerusalem, not the other way around

    And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
    – you equate the remnant of Jacob to only the lamanites, isn’t the blood of ephraim and manassah the remnant of jacob… also it appears that you suggest that today’s lds living in america are gentiles adopted in to israel… are they not rather the true scattered israel that the Lord has preserved for His work… For instance Joseph is literally of the blood line of Ephraim…

  2. derek asked, “you equate the remnant of Jacob to only the lamanites, isn’t the blood of ephraim and manassah the remnant of jacob”

    From the Book of Mormon we know that Lehi was of the tribe of Manasseh, that Ishmael was of the tribe of Ephraim and Mulek was of the tribe of Judah. There also might have been other tribes among them, but that’s all we know. It appears that for the most part, the descendents of those people, those that survive today, are of the tribe of Manasseh (descendents of Lehi.) The Book of Mormon prophets were likely all of Manasseh, also, including perhaps even Zenos, Zenock and Neum, which were prophets of the old world. Prophets of the lineage of Manasseh operate differently than those of other lineages.

    “also it appears that you suggest that today’s lds living in america are gentiles adopted in to israel…are they not rather the true scattered israel that the Lord has preserved for His work… For instance Joseph is literally of the blood line of Ephraim…”

    The Savior’s words are clear in verse 22 that the Gentiles would be numbered with “this the remnant of Jacob.” The operative word “this” was referring to the people the Savior was talking to at that time, meaning the remnant of Jacob living in America at that time, which were composed of (that we know of) the tribes of Ephraim, Manassah and Judah.

    We see the fulfillment of this in patriarchal blessings. The large majority of Gentile LDS are of Ephraim, while the minority are of Manasseh. Very few are of other lineages. Obviously, whether one is adopted or a literal descendant is unknown unless your lineage is traced back far enough to discover its origins. Many current Gentiles LDS can trace their lineage to Europe, and Ephraim pops up all over that place.

    Obviously, as the 10 tribes made their way north, some stayed behind in certain spots, leaving descendants which intermingled over time with Gentiles. But there are those of the opinion that the whole of the 10 tribes actually intermingled with, and became completely integrated into, the Gentile northern nations. And thus, when we baptize a Gentile, we are really baptizing one of the blood of scattered Israel, whose blood has been diluted with Gentile blood.

    I do not hold to such a theory. Yes, some of the 10 tribes must have undoubtedly stayed behind and interacted with the Gentiles, bringing diluted Israelite blood to the world, but the bulk of the 10 tribes kept going north, north, north until they entered into the bowels of the earth to be hidden from the view of those on the outside. At some point these 10 tribes will return with their prophets and their scriptural records, prior to the gathering, and prior to the Second Coming of the Lord, for we need all the records (and all the tribes and prophets) in order to gather all things in one (in Christ) in the dispensation of the fulness of times. Additionally, any of the records kept by those of the 10 tribes that integrated with the Gentiles of the north (the Israelites that stayed behind) needs to come forth, too.

    The Lord refers to three distinct groups of people: this the remnant of Jacob (the pure blooded Lehites, Ishmaelites and Mulekites living in America), the Gentiles (those not of the pure blood of Israel) and the rest of the house of (pure-blooded) Israel, which consists of those not included in the previous two groups. Joseph Smith was both an Ephraimite and a Gentile. His lineage is traced to Europe, so, he is probably one of those Gentiles of diluted Israelite blood, perhaps in his case less diluted than other Gentiles.

  3. It appears that for the most part, the descendents of those people, those that survive today, are of the tribe of Manasseh (descendents of Lehi.) The Book of Mormon prophets were likely all of Manasseh, also, including perhaps even Zenos, Zenock and Neum, which were prophets of the old world. Prophets of the lineage of Manasseh operate differently than those of other lineages.

    Do you have references to validate the assumptions

  4. The thing I am most curious about is, where does it indicate that Ishmael was of Ephraim?

    Adding my own opinion to this, I don’t really believe there is any of the blood of Israel unmixed. There are no pure races. Everything is mixed. And clearly there were more migrations to the Americas that Lehi’s seed mixed with other than just Mulekite.

    This has interesting implications for the previous post about the State of Israel. The idea of Jews being pure Israelites and Palestinians being pure Ishmaelites (the argument used by Mormons to justify the state of Israel’s oppression of everyone else) just doesn’t hold up to evidence. The Jews returning to Israel have mixed pretty well with Europeans (as evidenced by the whiter skin). The Palestinians are likely to be just as Israelite in genetic terms as anyone. Anytime the Jews were removed from Jerusalem, it generally wasn’t completely depopulated. It was primarily the rich, aristocratic members of society that were taken away, while the poor were left. The conflict between the Jews and Samaritans in Christ’s time had less to do with race, and more to do with the conflict between rich and poor, each blaming the other for why they were conquered in the first place. Also, years of separation had led to differences in religious development. That seems to be pretty much still the same situation today. The returning Jews are descendants of Jewish aristocracy and developed their Rabbinical traditions, and the Palestinians are descended from the poorer Israelites who were converted to Islam.

    So anyway, I feel pretty strongly that the gathering of Israel will be from numerous Middle Eastern countries as well as other areas. I also believe that they primarily concern individuals who repent and seek to establish a Zion society, though blood certainly has some to do with it. But all blood as been mixed. As John the Baptist said “the Lord is able of these stones to raise up children of Abraham.”

    There are some interesting points in this post about the gathering here on this continent. There are certainly some pretty interesting prophecies given in the teachings of Christ in the Book of Mormon that clearly have not been fulfilled yet!

  5. derek asked, “It appears that for the most part, the descendents of those people, those that survive today, are of the tribe of Manasseh (descendents of Lehi.) The Book of Mormon prophets were likely all of Manasseh, also, including perhaps even Zenos, Zenock and Neum, which were prophets of the old world. Prophets of the lineage of Manasseh operate differently than those of other lineages.

    Do you have references to validate the assumptions”

    I believe that what4anarchy is the one that explained to me that the remnant of Jacob on this continent is mostly of Manasseh. This comes from his interviews with patriarchs who have said this, I believe, from the blessings they have given.

    In my dealings with what4anarchy, who is what I call a “tribist,” I have learned to distinguish or discern the differences between at least the two tribes that make up the bulk of present church membership: Ephraim and Manasseh. I believe I have come to recognize how Ephraimites and those of the tribe of Manasseh generally act and speak. In a way, I have become a “tribist” like what4anarchy. (By tribist, I mean that I can personally meet someone and based upon the responses of the conversation or the actions taken by the person, fairly accurately determine the man or woman’s tribe, whether of Ephraim or of Manasseh.) There are tribal traits, if you will, whether you know it or not. So, based upon my understanding of, for example, the traits of the tribe of Manasseh, I would place Zenock, Zenos and also probably Neum in the tribe of Manasseh.

  6. Joseph Owen asked, “The thing I am most curious about is, where does it indicate that Ishmael was of Ephraim?”

    This supposedly comes from the Book of Lehi which was translated by Joseph Smith into the now lost 116 manuscript pages. According to Erastus Snow, Joseph apparently revealed this fact to some of his contemporaries (see Journal of Discourses 23: 184-185). Franklin D. Richards also, apparently, said this information comes from Joseph Smith. And Orson Pratt also identified Ishmael as being an Ephraimite. As we don’t have the Book of Lehi in front of us, we cannot confirm the truth or accuracy of these statements other than by the Holy Ghost. It appears that the general authorities and membership of the church have just assumed that these statements are true, as evidenced by the Book of Mormon Index entry on “Ishmael,” which calls him an Ephraimite.

    Concerning your other comments, Joseph, 2 Nephi 30: 2 gives the Lord’s definition of who are His covenant people and, as He has covenanted to gather His covenant people, and no one else, my understanding is that unless the people in that area of the world (or any area, really) fit that description, they are not part of the gathering covenant and will not be gathered by Him or His power, though they may attempt to gather by some other power.

  7. Joseph Owen, I just came across this article which seems to echo your comment about Israelite and Palestinian blood. Here is a quote:

    What if the Palestinian Arabs who have lived for decades under the heel of the modern Israeli state are in fact descended from the very same “children of Israel” described in the Old Testament?

    And what if most modern Israelis aren’t descended from the ancient Israelites at all, but are actually a mix of Europeans, North Africans and others who didn’t “return” to the scrap of land we now call Israel and establish a new state following the attempt to exterminate them during World War II, but came in and forcefully displaced people whose ancestors had lived there for millennia?

    Here’s the link: Controversial Bestseller Shakes the Foundation of the Israeli State. You might want to also check out the comments that follow the article.

  8. LDS Anarchist,

    Thanks for your response. And I especially appreciate your statement that 2 Nephi 30:2 clarifies who will be gathered. I definitely believe in this scripture, and I hope nothing in my comments was interpreted as contradicting it. In fact, the assertion made in 2 Nephi 30:2 was my intended point. Blood lineage may be involved, but, as the New Testament teaches, those in Abraham’s lineage are ultimately those who “do the works of Abraham.”

  9. Joseph Owen, I was just supporting your comment with another scripture and stating that I agreed with the conclusion you have come to. After I wrote my comment and looked at what you wrote, I realized that I had basically said the same thing in a different way. So, you can consider it a seconding of your motion. 😉

  10. LDSAnarchy-

    I enjoyed your article…

    You made the following comment;

    ““be set up as a free people by the power of the Father” — The government of the Gentiles would be broken up at some point and they would be brought into tribal anarchy. This is still a future event.”

    I agree with you that the time when the Gentiles become free is a future event, however It seems to me that the thing that makes the gentiles free is not anarchy but rather the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth;

    “For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be ESTABLISHED in this land, and be SET UP as a free people by the POWER OF THE FATHER, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled…”

    “Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws BUT MY LAWS when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand?” (D&C 38: 22)

    1828 Websters definition
    ESTAB’LISHED, pp. Set; fixed firmly; founded; ordained; enacted; ratified; confirmed.

    Thanks for your consideration-

  11. OWIW, the saints had already been given the kingdom when D&C 38: 22 was revealed.

    Wherefore, gird up your loins and be prepared. Behold, the kingdom is yours, and the enemy shall not overcome…Therefore, be ye strong from henceforth; fear not, for the kingdom is yours. (D&C 38: 9, 15)

    Yet, despite having the kingdom of God, they were not yet free. The problem lay in that they still had kings and rulers over them.

    But, verily I say unto you that in time ye shall have no king nor ruler, for I will be your king and watch over you. (D&C 38: 21)

    The Gentiles (not the converted Gentiles, mind you, but the Gentiles prior to receiving the future Nephite record) will, at some point, have their kings and rulers (or kingmen, if you will) removed by the power of the Father (as you have noted), meaning that the secret combination will be destroyed. The Father will destroy the secret combination not by destroying those that pertain to it or through the preaching of the gospel, but by destroying the means that the secret combination uses to obtain power: government, bringing all us slaves (if we are not free then we are captives or slaves) into the freedom of tribal anarchy. It is the power of the Father that will make “a full end of all nations” (see D&C 87: 6), including this nation. Concerning this nation (USA), in particular though, we will be broken up and brought into tribal anarchy before many of the other nations.

    The establishment of the (non-converted) Gentiles has no permanency, except if they repent and believe the gospel of the Lord, otherwise they will be swept off this land, as no one can inherit it except those who are numbered with the house of Israel. Although we do know that the hand of the Lord was in the establishment of the (non-converted) Gentiles upon this land, as the constitution of the land (see What the Lord has said about the Constitution and especially D&C 101: 77) was established by God, etc., it does not mean that the Gentiles have received an inheritance upon this land without accepting the gospel. The Gentiles were kept away from here so long as the Nephites remained faithful to Christ and his gospel. Once they rejected it, the Lord brought the Gentiles to this land as a scourge to the remnant, to scatter them, etc. In other words, had the Nephites stayed firm, the Gentiles never would have come and disturbed their peace. But we know the history and now the Gentiles are here. As long as the full Nephite record remains hidden, they (the Gentiles) can remain in their blindness and ignorance upon the land, believing whatever brand of Christianity or religion they choose, but once the record comes forth, everyone will be judged by the records and the great division will decide who inherits and who does not. At that day, only the house of Israel, and those Gentiles numbered with them, will be permanently established.

  12. For the record, I am not OWIW, I am his wife. Sorry for the confusion, we use the same computer and you must be amazing to figure that out.

    I have read some of your articles and have really enjoyed them and wanted to comment on this one.

    The point I am making is that there is a difference between individuals who have been given the kingdom (given the keys of the kingdom) vs. the kingdom being ESTABLISHED and ready to roll forth in power.

    Section 38 is a promise to the individuals holding the keys of the kingdom that they personally, in the ultimate sense, will not be overcome.

    Nevertheless, the prophet Daniel observed that the horn would indeed PREVAIL against the Saints until the return of the Ancient of Days and judgment is given to the Saints. That’s in Daniel 7:21-22.

    A second witness to the prophecy of Daniel is contained in section 103:6-8 wherein it is revealed that the kingdoms of the world will overcome the Saints of the 2nd watch.

    It is important to note that the kingdom of God in the 3rd watch smashes the kingdoms of the world… hence, it does not appear that there will be a significant time of anarchy prior to the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth.

    My point is simply that in your comment below, you seem to be attributing the “Power of the Father” that makes the gentiles a free people as a state of anarchy, when in fact, it is the establishment of the kingdom of God that makes
    a people free.

    “be set up as a free people by the power of the Father” — The government of the Gentiles would be broken up at some point and they would be brought into tribal anarchy.”

    When the spokesman returns to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, he proclaims liberty… because the kingdom has returned.

    While you might make a good case for the fact that no government is better than wicked governments, anarchy has never truly made a people free in the ultimate gospel sense.

    My interpretation of the following scripture is that God and the laws of his established kingdom are what make us free, not anarchy.

    D&C 98:6-8

    8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

  13. Anarchist,
    If a psychologist was to put an abstract picture of nothing in front of you and ask you what you see you would say.., I see anarchy…
    Is the point of Zion to follow Gods laws or to live in anarchy? (If they are really the same then GO ANARCHY!!!) Can you not find a better word to explain Following our Lord/King than anarchy? Is anarchy really a code word for living the higher law?

  14. Mrs. Watcher, welcome to the blog! It is good to see a husband and wife team that are united on prophetic interpretation.

    It is also good to see LDS (such as yourself and truthseeker) talking about the possibility of anarchy being in the prophecies, even if they don’t see it written there.

    I have reviewed the scriptures you brought up and I see no either/or scenario (meaning it is either this or that because this invalidates that and vice versa), but a both this/and/that scenario. In other words, Daniel and D&C don’t invalidate the anarchy prophecies. Both will happen. I think we have a misunderstanding in timelines and also in scriptural terminology. I see now that I must expound D&C 87. Perhaps that will make things a little clearer. I’ll do that in my next post.

    Also, there seems to be a misunderstanding as to what anarchy is and isn’t. I recommend reading the blog post, The role of free agency in political systems, while you wait for my D&C 87 post to be published. Thanks for the comments, both of you.

  15. Truthseeker and waitingandwatching:

    I look forward to LDSA’s analysis of Doctrine and Covenants 87, but in the meantime https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/category/anarchism/ does give a better idea of what is meant by anarchy in this context. I may not agree with LDS Anarchist on everything, but he does make good points. It should be understood that anarchy is derived from “an-archons” meaning “without rulers” not “without rules.” I have not seen anywhere in this blog a claim contrary to the reality that following God’s laws makes us more free. But God doesn’t force anyone to live His laws (in contrast to earthly governments).

    For truthseeker and waitingandwatching, I am curious, once God’s kingdom is fully operational here on earth, what happens to those who choose not to believe? Are they burned by hell-fire instantly? That, to me, does not accord with what the Spirit has testified of Gospel truths to me.

  16. Joseph-

    Since I am staying in Wendover tonight on business and would rather read blogs than gamble, I thought I would enter the discussion, although I don’t necessarily speak in behalf of MRS Watcher or Truthseeker.

    I don’t necessarily disagree with many of the Anarchists points while using his personal interpretations of the word Anarchy, however for the purposes of this discussion I prefer to use the standard interpretation from Websters Dictionary.

    Of course, I prefer using the 1828 although, in this case, since the term Anarchy doesn’t show up in scripture, I can see why some may prefer to use the more current Websters.

    Nevertheless, for purposes of this response I’ll use the 1828 definition;

    AN’ARCHY, n. [Gr. rule.]
    Want of government; a state of society, when there is no law or supreme power, or when the laws are not efficient, and individuals do what they please with impunity; political confusion.

    Please note that the above definition of the word anarchy is categorically contrary to the definition of Zion. In a Zion society all participants are in a state of unity and agreement without any confusion. And all participants have submitted and subjected themselves to the laws of the Kingdom of God while anarchy usually without law or the laws are not efficient.

    From reading the above mentioned posts, it does not seem to me that Mrs Watcher is challenging whether anarchy is going to take place in the prophetic future. Her comment appears to be saying she doesn’t think there will be a prolonged time of anarchy PRIOR to the return of the Kingdom of God to the earth. I believe the scriptures support this speculation.

    Clearly, the time that anarchy takes place and gains traction is AFTER the kingdom returns.

    There are several places in scripture that speak of a great polarization and separation that is going to take place once the Kingdom returns. Here is just one example;

    “..and at that hour cometh an entire separation of the righteous and the wicked” D&C 63

    The Book of Mormon tells us that the time will come when people will have to choose between laboring for Money vs laboring for Zion… and those who choose to labor for money will perish.

    “But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.” 2nd Nephi 26

    Your remarks below, imply that you have received personal revelation to the contrary and that perhaps you find it offensive that God would destroy those that choose not to believe;

    “..I am curious, once God’s kingdom is fully operational here on earth, what happens to those who choose not to believe? Are they burned by hell-fire instantly? That, to me, does not accord with what the Spirit has testified of Gospel truths to me.”

    According to the word of God, those who don’t believe, that choose to labor for money instead of Zion, will perish. If this contradicts what the spirit has testified to you, that is something you will need to reconcile for yourself.

    Modern revelation also reveals that there will be a complete separation between the righteous and the wicked. I believe the following definition of Zion is contrary to the above definition of Anarchy. The following description of what will be taking place among the wicked however, does seem to be consistent with the above definition of Anarchy.

    “and it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the most high God; and the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it; and it shall be called Zion.

    And it shall come to pass, among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor, must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
    And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.
    And it shall be said among the wicked, Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible, wherefore we can not stand.”

    The above scriptures in the context of the above definition of Anarchy suggests to me that the only FREE people in the gospel context of being free are those who submit themselves to the Laws of Gods Kingdom. Conversely, those who fight against the Kingdom of God will be in a state of war, a state of lawless confusion, a state of Anarchy and they will perish.

    It therefore seems more accurate and appropriate to me to equate the “power of the father” that makes Gods people “free” with the submission to the “Kingdom of God” rather than attributing the bringing forth of freedom as a result of “anarchy”.

  17. In Section 105, the Lord says HE will “fight the battles of Zion”. That implies that those who are not of Zion, will have to fight their own battles.

    The big question is , What and where is the introduction, or entrance into Zion? so that I will not have to sleep on my sword, so to speak? I want to have the Lord fight my battles, but in order for him to fight my battles, I will have to be the embodiment of Zion.

    I feel the answer is found in Section 98.

    First, we must live according to what the Lord defines as constitutional law, and seek for and uphold honest, wise, and good men to administer the same. Constitutional law belongs to all mankind, and is not exclusive, or inclusive; and supports that principle of freedom that maintains rights and privileges. But those rights and privileges cannot be had at the expense of sacrificing another’s rights and privileges. I think the key word is, that constitution law is law which belongs to all mankind in a society.

    Second, I think it is important not to deviate outside the bounds of “whatsoever is more or less than this, or these” for all that is outside the bounds specified “cometh of evil.” In other words, there is a line that cannot be stepped over regarding living according to constitutional law. It is important to note that even the righteous can be fooled to step over that line as is evidenced in Helaman 6 where it states that “even the righteous were seduced to participate in the spoils of the Gadiantons.” Those who participate in any government program, or receive any entitlement at the expense of another’s being compelled to give up his/her rights and privileges is outside of the bounds. They are not privy to the protection that comes from living the law of the Lord. It is important to develop the skill of recognizing when that line is stepped over, and when it is not.

    Third, It is important to choose to according to laws that are constitutional, and give up living according to laws that are unconstitutional.

    This is where the rubber meets the road. Because choosing laws that are constitutional will get you in trouble with the “powers that be”, and will be very inconvenient. Choosing Laws that are constitutional require exercising faith in the Lord

    Once we are open to the blessings that come from living according to constitutional law, we will open our hearts to the plight of all mankind. In oher words, Constitutional law belongs to all mankind, and we are called to be the salt of the earth. We belong to all mankind. We are to be Saviors on Mount Zion.

    Section 105 tells us what is “required of our hands” to be introduced to Zion society. And this is to “impart of our substance to the poor and afflicted” and “deliver them in time of trouble”; “go unto Zion”, and “[release] our moneys” to build Zion, and “be united according to the law of the Celestial Kingdom”. (verses 3,4,8)

    Those “churches that are scattered abroad” (This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) were waiting for the Lord to deliver the afflicted in their time of trouble. And then upon condition of the Lord delivering them, they would come to Zion, and give of their moneys.

    But the Lord says that this “deliverance” is not what He requires of himself, but from us, not Him. What he says his part is, is that he will fight the battles of Zion.

    What does this have to do with the discussion above?

    I feel between a rock and a hard spot when I consider the scripture that states that “those who labor for money will perish”. Do any of you realize how hard it is to give up that labor,and labor for Zion instead? I have tried to implement it. Several years ago, I was inspired to set up my office as a ministry, and request anonymous donations to support my family. That way, I wouldn’t be working for money, because I wouldn’t know how much people would pay (I am a chiropractor). I would turn my office into my “begging station”, and take on the stance of offering what I do without price, but aside from the service that I would offer, I would request an anonymous donation to support my family. In trying to implement this, I realized how much I do work for money. I resent being paid too little, and I love being given more-than-expected gifts. For this reason, I chose to have all donations be anonymous. That would be an important blog for someone to explore, “How to effectively labor for Zion and not for money. And another point, is it even possible to labor for Zion when Zion is not set up?

    The big question that I see is “How can I set myself up to receive the protection that would come from the Lord fighting my battles?”

  18. Onewhoiswatching:

    I realize now that my above post sounded more harsh than I intended. I’ve been struggling with winter blues, a cold, and the beginnings of spring fever and it’s attendant anxieties.

    It should be understood that I have not come across a political “ism” that I’ve been able to commit to entirely, and this includes anarchism. That said, “archo-socialism” or
    libertarian left” are terms that have always best described my own political beliefs, and fits very well with what is described in 4 Nephi in the Book of Mormon. While I am willing to consider LDSA’s predictions of the total collapse of government prior to other events preceding the second coming, I have in other comments already expressed my own concerns about “tribal anarchy.” It may be inevitable, but my faith in it’s stability is not that great. Despite my own reservations, however, I do feel LDSA has made some good points that should not be dismissed just because of his use of the word “anarchy.” There are dictionary definitions for words, connotations for words, and then what people actually mean when they are using those words. Anarchy as a political system is different from the dictionary definition of anarchy. As an example of this, Percy Bysshe Shelley wrote a poem using anarchy in it’s negative context, but he was a devotee of William Godwin, who is one of the major original thinkers in political anarchy. But I don’t want to get overly bogged down in semantics.

    In terms of 3 Nephi 26 verse 31: This is a very important scripture to me. But no time line is given. I know lots of people who labor for money, and only money, but they haven’t perished yet. This life is a test, and it will still a be test in the Millenium, since the earth won’t be completely sanctified until after. Since our current economic and political systems will have been smashed to pieces it might be difficult to labor for money, but individuals will still reject the fullness of the gospel, and will be allowed to do so. There won’t be a government forcing it’s will on anyone. God allows us to make our own decisions. That’s all I meant by my own personal revelations concerning the matter.

    You do bring up good points, and I certainly agree that the true Zion will not be a disordered society.

  19. Joseph

    I agree with your following statement

    “I do feel LDSA has made some good points that should not be dismissed just because of his use of the word “anarchy.” There are dictionary definitions for words, connotations for words, and then what people actually mean when they are using those words. Anarchy as a political system is different from the dictionary definition of anarchy”

    That is why I had made the previous statement;

    “I don’t necessarily disagree with many of the Anarchists points while using his personal interpretations of the word Anarchy”

    I don’t think any of us are that far apart in our views, the problem is largely that of definitions and semantics and all of that “book larnin” type stuff.

    Regarding your following statement;

    “I know lots of people who labor for money, and only money, but they haven’t perished yet.”

    I don’t think that statement applies to our time right now. I think it is a prophecy pertaining to a future event.

    I think the time is going to come when everyone is going to be forced to make a choice between Zion and Babylon. That is when that prophetic statement will take on a literal application.

    Those who submit to Gods Kingdom and flee to Zion will consecrate and labor for Zion and money will have no use in a Zion society. Those who take the mark or what ever the system of “buy and sell” commerce is being offered and who fight against Zion will perish as the judgments of God roll forth upon them.

  20. Typo correction: when I said “archo-socialism” I meant “anarcho-socialism.”

  21. Oh, and onewhoiswatching, I would concur that we are in agreement on many points concerning Zion. Thanks for your thoughts.

  22. I truly like the idea that you all are trying to pull the mysterys out of the scriptures. How ever the real issues are not being addressed. And untill you serve God in truth and righteousness as mentioned in the 76th section of D&C you shall never get to the deeper mysterys ,that section has been realized in my self so I know what it takes, you must sacrifice all that you have and all that you are to obtain the fullness. If you had done these things you would be conversing about much different things, I don’t mean to judge you but only to point it out to you, in love and kindness. yours truly Brand Nu

  23. Good One Brand Thorton

  24. It’s interesting to view the various ideas on what it means to transition into a Zionist society. I noticed some one mentioning their own personal efforts at complete withdraw from our current dependence on Money and the typical Jobs we are employed in to sustain ourselves.

    I find it odd that someone would even try to Attempt living a Zionist Life at this point.

    While I can certainly empathize with the Desire to live this way….It’s not currently even Possible.

    Thousands of group and individual attempts have failed at doing this and always will.

    There is an Element necessary for the Transition that is not Present in ANY prior attempts to do this with the exception of the recorded Biblical sucesses…Enoch, Melchezidek ect…

    I saw the comment made that those who work for money will not survive. And there is your KEY. Not the money itself but the NEED for it’s existence.

    The implication behind that statement indicates a whole new approach to understanding how to meet needs. And any kind of Monetary System devised to accomodate Temporal Needs First is in Juxtiposition to understanding of the need to place Spiritual things of the Kingdom BEFORE Temporal matters.

    The Patterns of behaviour we encounter in a Telestial World are Naturally in opposition to God’s view of things….”My ways are not Man’s Ways”.

    So ANYTHING devised to accomodate our Human View of meeting needs will ALWAYS find it’s primary focus on meeting TEMPORAL needs first….Food, clothing, & a Roof over our heads.

    The ONLY way to Transition into the OPPOSITE of mode of considering SPIRITUAL matters above TEMPORAL needs is to first REMOVE the Temporal Distraction.

    This is not something that is even Possible without the Direct Assistance of Heaven.

    It’s not just a matter Desire, it’s a matter of making the JUMP to Complete Withdraw from the Conditions imposed upon us at the time of the Fall of Adam and RETURNING to the Former Conditions that existed BEFORE the Fall.

    So TWO Elements must be Present for this JUMP to Zion to occur.

    1. A set of World Wide Catostrophic Circumstances that would CAUSE COMPLETE Involuntary withdraw from the World we are accustomed to.

    This would not create the “DESIRE” we have to move to Zion but rather FIRST the “NEED” for it. NOW it doesn’t become an OPTION that people could try out if they like as has been attempted on so many occasions, but rather becomes a NECESSITY.

    “Necessity is the Mother of Invention” and in THIS CASE The NEED to make the JUMP from a Telestial World “Mind set” to a Terrestrial World “Heart Set.”

    In the World we now live in the Bigger emphasis is the use of our Brains Trumping the Use of our Hearts in deciding how to meet the needs of a Very Material World.

    To Transend making a World OPPOSITE to that…The need to place our Hearts before our Brains in deciding how to meet the needs of a Higher order is paramount in it’s sucess.

    Let me put it to plain everyday terms.

    We as people of a Telestial Mind set don’t have the Capacity to for making this JUMP without Direct Help from someone or ones who have already been RAISED to that Higher Level of understanding and can not only SHOW US the WAY but ALSO provide the necessary TEMPORAL ELEMENTS needed for surviving the TRANSITION for those not quite up to the SPEED of those chosen Exemplars.

    And WHY would those Temporal Elements be needed for a time?….Because God must FIRST INITIALLYREMOVE THEM TOTALLY in order to Create “THE NEED”.

    The Coming New World Order of Satan is COUNTERFITTING this very same Process yet has a Different Agenda when it comes time to Provide the “NEEDS” that derive from the Man Made Chaos that is Planed & Generated to Create the NEED for “CHANGE”.

    God will simply USE their Folly to Bring about the “NEED” in our Hearts for ZION.

    2. The second element beyond the NEED being Created by God ALLOWING Satan to do His Thing, is for God to implant the SPIRITUAL INGREDIANT to make use of the NEED Created by Temporal Commodities becoming NON EXISTANT.

    This way we have NO CHOICE but to Depend on God or Perish among those of Satan’s Order….Those who recieve His Mark. Satan’s offer is an IMPLODING ILLUSION to TEMPT us to ‘Return To Egypt” where there is a False Promise of the Essentials we Crave as HUMANS.

    The whole idea of going to Zion is to get BEYOND those HUMAN DESIRES to satisfy the needs of the Flesh.

    So God must send people ( 144,000 & 1 OVERCOMERS of the Flesh ).

    Not only can they Provide the Spiritual Insite we’ll need but also the Temporay MANNA from Heaven to Get us through the “WILDERNESS” of TRANSITION.

    The need for Divine Assistance in the form of the Lord’s Man Like unto Moses and His Trusted Assistants the 144,000 Overcomers of the Flesh….Is the Very Reason that HUMAN attemps to implement this Zion Utopian Condition is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to accomplish without this Special Help in the form of God Sending these Special Helpers & then Creating the NEED for Zion which eventually becomes “DESIRE” to Perpetuate it & Ultimately a Society becomes “ONE” WITH IT as it becomes WHO we ARE..

    That sort of thing doesn’t JUST HAPPEN nor can it come about through simple “HUMAN” Desire and Understanding.

    It requires AT LEAST the Understanding of an ANGEL to pull this off….Hence God sends His Angels….

    Unless you have ascended to that Particular Level , then what the HECK are you even doing trying to ATTEMPT IT ?

    You are trying to assume Authority & Knowledge you DO NOT POCESS.

    Kick Back & Calm Down….The “CONDITIONS” necessary to Create this NEED are now ALMOST IN PLACE.

    There are 144,000 & 1 Saints just “WAITING” for the Starting Gun to Go Off.

    And JUST BEFORE that Happens….Heavenly Father will QUIETLY SLIP His Servant & Assistants away to Heaven and Endow them with thier FOREORDAINED Glory & Commissions to IMPLEMENT God’s Great & Marvilous Work & A Wonder.

    The REST of His children who have not quite reached their level of Spiritual Understanding will mearly have to Follow their INSTRUCTIONS & EXAMPLES.

    Like I’ve said Many Times before….This AIN’T Rocket Science….It’s a Loving Father Simply Providing for the Special Needs of His Children at a VERYSPECIAL TIME in History.

    The New Moses will see us through the “WILDERNESS” of Transition inot the PROMISED LAND OF ZION…Peace of Heavenly Cake…..

  25. Brand, it’s Good to hear your thoughts. To me, your thoughts on this subject, sort of typify the Frustration that is building within a People wanting to understand these things and chomping at the bit to engauge in it.

    But in that Frustration, people are mealry bouncing off the walls of sorted Scripture describing it.

    Many have recieved the Second Comforter where God comes to “OUR” Level but NO ONE HERE right now, has yet to ascend to GOD’S Level.

    And THIS is the POINT…. Untill someone DOES ascend to “GOD’S” Level, then we are left to viewing the Matter of Zion from a SPECTATOR’S Position.

    There is NO WAY to Play the Game from the Bleachers.

    This Frustration can ONLY be Allieviated by someone on Earth Ascending to the “Fresh Air” of Heaven and Returning to Open That Window of UNDERSTANDING for the REST of us to BREATHE it’s Fragrance.

    A picture is worth a THOUSAND WORDS & SO TOO, would be a Real Live Picture from Heaven….The Lord’s Final Servant to Prepare the Way of God’s Return.

    How would a Servant DO THAT unless He had ventured to the Place of God’s Eventual Departure & came back to INFORM us as to WHAT & WHO we are to PREPARE FOR ?

    ZION will ALWAYS remain a Secret UNTILL that Certain Someone here on Earth NOW, Travels to Heaven & Reports Back to Earth.

    And WHEN will that Happen ?….As they say in Comedy…..”When The Timing Is Just Right “.

    This is God’s REASON for giving us The SIGNS to look for.

    To Recognize ENVELOPED Signs of History as it Unfolds, is to Understand it’s TIMIING.

    TIMING is EVERYTHING at this point. No One EXCEPT God’s Foreordained Servant can POSSIBLY bring us to an UNDERSTANDING of these things.

    I’m Quite Confident that He KNOWS who He IS. But even HE would have to AWAIT the Moment in Time when His Knowing who He Is, Becomes WHO He WILL BE..

    You are not addressed by Different Names given to us by God for NOTHING. New Names imply NEW IDENTITIES and New Work.

    UNTILL such a Moment in Time ARRIVES….OLD NAMES continue to assume OLD IDENTITIES in Order to CONSEAL their SECRETS.

    Zion is to soon Manifest itself in the NAME by which the Man called to TYPIFY it’s Meaning is DISCLOSED BY GOD…..Which is something that has ALREADY been Revealed…..There is a “LORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS” to PRECEED Our “LORD OF SALVATION”.

    BOTH are Lord’s. BOTH have Served the Father since the Very Begining. BOTH will Bring About Zion with the FORMER to “PREPARE THE WAY” for His BEST FRIEND the GROOM to the Bride of Zion.

    He who has ALWAYS pointed our way to Christ & the Father will now DO THAT in the Flesh ….That Eventually becomes HIGHER than Mortal Flesh.

    While “The Lord of Salvation ” ( Jesus Christ ) holds the Key to RESURECTION, “The Lord Our Righteousness” ( The Holy Spirit ), pocesses the KEY to Understanding the Process of TRANSLATION to a TERRESTRIAL ORDER , which JUST SO HAPPENS, to be the Very Same Order to be Prepared for those to become Part Of who will be Governed by Christ upon His Return.

    Our Purpose in Establishing Zion at this Particular Junction in the Earth’s History is for the Purpose of Providing the TRANSITION from the Telestial Order to the Next Higher Order.

    This has been the LIFE’S PURPOSE of the Holy Spirit from the time of the Fall….To Prepare & Bring Poeple unto CHRIST who is NOW knocking at our DOOR.

    It’s Simple Team Work .

    Zion will be Understood when the Man who UNDERSTANDS IT ….Explains it , by SHOWING it to us.

    It’s just NOT QUITE the Time for that ….But it AIN’T Far Off.

  26. Brand (NU ),… THAT couldn’t be Expressed in a Better Way. Is it a Recent Experience ? Apparently so from the Addition to your name.

    I went to the date on your above comment and realized it was from last year.

    I’m So Happy for you Brother.

    I know where you are coming from and it has been that way for me since I was 20 years old.

    It’s an AMAZINGLY WONDERFUL THING….Beyond Words to Describe.

    It’s something that has Driven my NEVER ENDING DESIRE for Others to Experience.

    I’m looking Foward to meeting you some day soon.

  27. One more thing Brand…While I have at times been entralled with the Mecanics of the Gospel like So Many on this Blog are……I’m with YOU on the Greater Importance of simply LIVING IT & Reaching it’s FULNESS.

    All the Mechanical & Logistical Understanding in the World can only get us So Far untill we ALL BECOME …. Brand NU.

  28. Let me Boil this Zion Thing down to a drop.

    Zion can NOT be realized as a Place untill it is FIRST Found in the Heart as Brand was alluding to.

    To find it in the Heart means to Transend the Boundaries of Material Need.

    THAT’S a Tough Boundry to Cross….Especially for a Large Group of People to achieve that at Once.

    Achieving that Goal in one felled swoop is NOT POSSIBLE given the disparity of Conditions of the Heart as it applies to the Lord’s people.

    So for Many to eventually to GET THERE … someONE First has to GO THERE…….

    “The Scout” who travels to the Destination & Returns to show the others the Way.

    Right Now there is only ONE person on Earth who knows HOW to Get There but is Obviously Awaiting the Proper Time to begin His “SCOUTING MISSION”.

    His QUE comes from the Father who knows the Proper Time.

    This whole Scouting Mission would have it’s Roots in a previous “Planing Session” that would ENABLE the Scout to Prepare for His Scouting Mission.

    You DON’T just have a Big Mission thrown in your lap without The Boss allotting the necessary Time to Prepare for the Trip…

    If God’s PEOPLE are not expected to embark on this journey unprepared or in Hasty Flight, then why would the SCOUT ?

    The Scout WOULDN’T. He would need a Fairly Long Life Time of FIRST Recieving an Introduction to “NATURE” of His Future Call. SECOND He would need Plenty of Time to come to understand the SPECIFICS of what that “NATURE” Implies, and FINALL, He would have to PAITENTLY AWAIT the Father Giving Him the “QUE” that the Proper time for His Scouting Mission had ARRIVED.

    So untill the SCOUT is CALLED and makes His Trip to Heaven, how could Anyone Else POSSIBLY Figure out the TRAIL TO ZION ?

  29. I mentioned in a previous statement that someone would have to ascend to Heaven & return to let us know WHAT & WHO we are to prepare for.

    Does defining WHAT & WHO sound like a DUH statement to you ? You say of course JESUS is the “WHO” we are looking for and ZION is the “WHAT” we are to accomplish in preparing for His Return.

    If you think that is a DUH Satement then you HAVEN’T GOT The FOGGIEST NOTION as to what that statement implies and you are in Deep Need of some Spiritual Training.

    BRAND knows what I’m refering too.

    Not training in DOCTRINE that so many of you are Experts at, but rather training involving the TRUE NATURE of Christ & Our Father.

    If YOU have NOT STOOD in their PRESENCE , then YOU need to come to this Level of UNDERSTANDING “WHO” God is.

    You HAVE to know the “WHO” before you can know HOW to do the “WHAT”.

    The Man Father has chosen to Lead us as Moses led the children of Israel to the Promised Land of HIS Day, is a Man who “KNOWS” our Father & Brother. Not just our BROTHER.

    Many here no, have come to “KNOW” our Brother but ONLY ONE “KNOWS” our Father as well.

    His KNOWING our Father is the REASON our FATHER is to INAGURATE this Great Work to soon comence. It’s the WORK of our FATHER , NOT our Brother, though our Brother will assist in this work.

    The Man like unto Moses ( The One Mighty & Strong ) has an INTIMATE Relationship with the Father as does Jesus. This is why So Much emphasis has been placed on his mission in the Scriptures.

    It does NOT superceed the Mission of our Savior but is an EQUAL necessary COMPLEMENT to His Mission ,as a Wife’s Role would compare to Her Husband’s.

    ZION is the WIFE To Be for Christ. The Man like unto Moses ( The Holy Spirit in the Flesh ), TYPIFIES that WIFE (ZION ).

    A Man who KNOWS how to Prepare the Bride. He is able to DO THIS by being as JACOB was….A MA MA’S Boy rather than Daddy ISSAC’S Boy.

    And I don’t mean this in ANY Perverse sense of that staement , but rather as a statement sugjesting that the Man Like unto Moses ( The Holy Spirit ), HAS the SPIRITUAL QUALITIES of His Heavenly MOTHER as did JACOB mirror His Mother REBECA’S Spritual Qualities and was the reason SHE was given to know by God, that JACOB & NOT Essau was to inherit the Birthright.

    Bottom line is….Jesus is a mirror image of our Father, while the Holy Spirit is a MALE image of our Mother.

    This is the FINAL ASPECT to REAVEALING the FULL NATURE of the Celestial Kingdom WITHIOUT giving away it’s SECRET to UNBELIEVERS.

    It is Revealed in TYPE through a MALE image of the BEST KEPT SECRET in Heaven.

    How many who have walked the Earth to THIS Point in Time …have met our MOTHER ?

    When God says NEW THINGS are to be revealed …He’s not KIDDING.

    But they will ONLY be Descerned by those who come to “KNOW” this MAN LIKE MOSES who is not just capable of revealing our Brother & Father, but our Mother as well.

    Would you LIKE to Meet Her ?

  30. Exicitement & Anticipation are what’s Fueling my thoughts I share.

    These things were NEVER a Secret to begin with. They are PLAINLY revealed in the Scriptures. But only a few are able to Plainly SEE them. And only ONE knows their Full Meaning.

    I don’t quote much Scripture as do most people on this site because I’m not having to SEARCH their meaning. I KNOW their meaning.

    And the MOST IMPORATNT MEANING can not be gained by READING them but rather LIVING them .

    You say we must STUDY before we can KNOW. I say that to understand DOCTRINE….THAT would be a True Statement. But to KNOW GOD, does NOT rquire a Broad understanding of Doctrine & is SOMETHING many of you need to REALIZE.

    BRAND’S statement in his last comment , is what has Prompted me to make ALL the comments I have made to this particular subject.

    I want to Personally THANK You Brand, for not just pointing this out to your Brothers & Sisters on this Blog, but I want to THANK YOU for Reminding ME of this.

    For the past twenty years I have been instructed by our Father to come to an understanding of the DOCTINES of His Kingdom. And BELIEVE me….I HAVE..

    But as we NEAR the time when the Trumpet will Sound, I have been stuck in a RUT of not being able to RECAPTURE “PAST MOMENTS” that are ESSENTIAL for my COMPLETING what God has Assigned me to do.

    It was simply because my FOCUS has necessarily been on DOCTRINE..

    The Time for DOING that has come to an END. And it was YOU who helped me through that FOG of not REMEMBERING what is WAS that I should NOW be doing in order to Consumate a PROMISE given to me by our Father a Long Time Ago.

    I Really Have a SPECIAL FEELING in My Heart for you Brother, though we’ve not yet met…But I’m SURE we HAVE….

    Brand, AWESOME THINGS are about to Take Place. Not right this minute, but within 2-3 more years.

    I Feel a Close Kinship with the SPIRIT you have expressed in the comments you make on these various subjects. They are the KIND of comments that seem to REIGN IN all the others that are made….MOST of which I TOO, have thoroughly enjoyed.

    I want you & your Family to come SIT with my Family, when God’s Promises to me begin to Take Shape.

    I Know that Father has a SPECIAL PLACE for you at our Table…….

    See you when the GUN GOES OFF !!!

  31. By the way…I often use the Word “Father” because it’s the one we are most accustomed to hearing. Truth be more Accurate…I’m not quite as Formal as my Brother and I think of Father as being more like “DAD”.

    I eat dinner in front of the TV while watching the History or Discovery Channel & I grew up in rather Poor Spiritual as well as Temporal Conditions. And Spong Bob can entertain me as well as Religion, Science, Politics or History & not necessarily in that order.

    Where as my Brother liked hanging out by the SEA, I Love Surfing & Diving in it.

    If my Brother were here driving a Car on the Interstate He would Rarely enter the Left Lane, where as THAT LANE Belongs to Me.

    Where my Brother is my Fathers RIGHT Hand Man, I am His LEFT.

    Where as my Brother probably didn’t have much Formal Schooling, I may as well Not Have, as I droped out of High School and left Home at 15.

    While He was a Pretty decent Carpenter, So am I, as well as an ex Iron Worker & Retired Marine. I’ve had more time to Work….

    Where as my Brother DID have some Special Schooling when Growing up…So have I.

    Where as my Brother has lived the Martyers Life, I’ve been required to Plow the Long Furrow.

    Where as my Brother Pocesses the Loftiness of Moses, I have been living as Aaron in the TRENCHES making “Bricks” with my Commrads in Slavery to Earthly Bondage, but am Waiting the Day to MEET Him in the Desert.

    Where as my Brother is King , I am His Lowliest of servants. Yet we are Best Friends like David & Johnathan.

    Where as my Brother is the Spitting image of our Father, I take on the Much Better Appeal of our Mother….Not Fabio…But maybe not Fred Mcmury either…Sorry Fred…

    Where as I placed MY Spirit upon HIM to Assist Him with His Mission, HE will place HIS Spirit upon ME to Assist me in mine.

    There is ONE THING I DO have in common with my Brother….We have BOTH been to HELL & BACK …only HIS TRIP was a little quicker.

    And I have ONE THING in common with YOU…..MY LOVE FOR MY BROTHER….

  32. Rob, I appreciate your desire for communication. But please, I would ask you to not take 2 days worth of writing directed at primarily ONE of your brothers. Personal email correspondence would be more appropriate. I am very interested in what you have to share as well. Only please, do not state that no ONE of us know anything really about how to implement ZION only to follow up with pages of comments telling us just how ZION will be implemented. And if you examine your copious words on the topic of mortal desire and seeking never being enough to complete the equation and then go back and read everyone else’s comments you will find that they in no way contradict eachother. Just pointing that out. Remember by your fruits we can know you. Thanks brother.

  33. Sorry for the ranting. As I look back upon these statements 3 years later, they seem very inappropriate and pompous to me. What an ass I appear to myself. I guess spiritual immaturity is a mental disorder that can be overcome in time. I’m sorry for being so offensive and acting as a know it all.

  34. Author, it seems like you skimmed over the last part of v3.

    that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them;

    Any idea why the Lord makes it sound as if he speaks about two peoples?

  35. That’s verse 2, not 3, abir. (Said after going on a wild goose chase to track the sayings down.)

    The first “concerning” is speaking of the people who were present while the Lord was uttering those words:

    that they may know concerning this people who are [present tense] a remnant of the house of Jacob

    The second “concerning” is speaking of the people of the future, the descendants of the Lehites of that time, who would be scattered by the Gentiles:

    and concerning this my people who shall be [future tense] scattered by them

  36. I enjoyed the article, but I am interested in why you think the Savior is referring to the Plates of Nepi and not the Book of Mormon in the opening verses? Mormon 5:10-15 seems to indicate that he wrote his abridgement for the very purpose that Christ refers to in 3 Nephi 21.

    I am also a little surprised that you do not think His prophecy of the Gentiles being set up as a free people has not been fulfilled. Why is that? Even if you feel as though the LDS church is off track, it is hard not to believe the Gentiles have been set up in a free country, the words of Christ have been revealed, and the gathering has began.

    I am interested in your opinion of the remnant treading down and tearing in pieces the unrepentant Gentiles. Is this a spiritual prophecy, such as taking leadership of His Church, or is it a physical fulfillment, such as when the House of Isreal entered the Promised Land?

    Thanks for your time in writing this article.

  37. LDS Anarchist. Thanks for your site! I reference it seems more & more regularly. I know this is an old post and the last comment didn’t get a reply. Hope you’re still reading these.

    you stated:

    ” — Tribal anarchy must first come to the Gentiles because their system of government and their man-made laws are incompatible with the laws of the Savior given in the unabridged record of his Nephite ministry. The Lord’s people would not be able to live the laws in that record while under the Gentile governmental system because that system would prohibit them from doing so. So, the order of the prophecy is that first the Gentiles come here and establish themselves (erecting their own forms of government), then their governments are broken up and they enter into the freedom of tribal anarchy, and finally the unabridged record comes forth.”

    Could you extrapolate other scriptures that defend this stance? And how does Ezra Taft Benson’s comment fit in with this, “It is my conviction, however, that when the Lord comes, the Stars and Stripes will be floating on the breeze over this people.” or the comments made that if the constitution was to be saved it would by by the Elders of Israel. IF the constitution is saved, how does this fit in with your theory of the government falling and tribal anarchy?

    I’m curious to hear your response prior to sharing my own thoughts and my own personal translations that I have yet to read/hear on a few key verses that seem to bring light to the discussion.

  38. Could you extrapolate other scriptures that defend this stance?

    I suppose I could, but I cannot do it now. I do not have the time currently to search the scriptures and get you some references. If I had the time, I would do it. Off-hand, I think this post, The scattering of Israel ain’t over, yet, gives evidence that this nation will cease to exist and another nation will take its place, in order for certain Book of Mormon prophecies to be fulfilled, so there’s that.

    As for Ezra Taft Benson’s comment, well, he may be right that “the Stars and Stripes will be floating on the breeze over this people.” Certainly there may be some U.S. flags that may survive until the Lord’s coming, and certainly there may be a flag that goes floating on the breeze over the people at that time, but as for the U.S. government existing in that day, not a chance.

    RE: the constitution being saved, well, there is only one part of the constitution that is divinely inspired, and so, yeah, sure, that part of the constitution may be saved, since they are divine principles. See the Talking to myself post for more on that.

    Btw, I am glad you like the site and have found it useful. I do still read the comments, although lately I’ve been unable, at all, to put up anything new, due to time and opportunity restraints. Hopefully, this state of affairs will cease and I’ll be able again to both respond to the comments in a timely fashion and put up new posts.

  39. It seems I completely missed this comment by Nathan:

    I enjoyed the article, but I am interested in why you think the Savior is referring to the Plates of Nepi and not the Book of Mormon in the opening verses? Mormon 5:10-15 seems to indicate that he wrote his abridgement for the very purpose that Christ refers to in 3 Nephi 21.

    The Savior said this:

    verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself

    We got the part that He was presently declaring, but not the part that came after, for the Savior spent three days ministering there, and we only got a part. The sign, then, concerns the full record, not the abridgment.

    I am also a little surprised that you do not think His prophecy of the Gentiles being set up as a free people has not been fulfilled. Why is that? Even if you feel as though the LDS church is off track, it is hard not to believe the Gentiles have been set up in a free country, the words of Christ have been revealed, and the gathering has began.

    Only anarchism represents “a free people,” not the erection of a state government. This country is not free. Stop paying the property taxes on that house that you own and see whether you really do, in fact, own it, or whether the state will come along and take it from you after you stop paying those taxes. Even when you’ve supposedly bought and paid for a house in full, you still do not own it. How, then, are you free?

    I am interested in your opinion of the remnant treading down and tearing in pieces the unrepentant Gentiles. Is this a spiritual prophecy, such as taking leadership of His Church, or is it a physical fulfillment, such as when the tHouse of Isreal entered the Promised Land?

    It will be a literal fulfillment, but it will also be fulfilled spiritually, for the remnant will also take control of the spiritual leadership.

    Sorry it took so long for me to respond.

  40. Nathan, you asked
    I am also a little surprised that you do not think His prophecy of the Gentiles being set up as a free people has not been fulfilled. Why is that?

    Another evidence to me is:
    2Ne 10:11 “shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land”
    I think the USpres has usurped even more power than even a British king had:
    taxation without representation, indefinite detention without trial, national security letters, executive orders bypassing the congress, undeclared wars, secret courts just to name a few.

  41. not even close. obama still doesnt get to bang everyones wife on their wedding night, he doesn’t kill prophets and apostles, he cant levy any sort of taxes he wants, he doesn’t get to own slaves, he can’t take any woman he wants to wife, he’s not going around conquesting free tribes like the scots and irish, and outlawing their language, he doesn’t get to decapitate michelle for only giving him daughers. i recognize him as being a satanist and member of the most wicked and perverse combinations, but he is a kingman, not a king.

    part of the problem is trying to interpret the BOM as only applying to the USA. the establishment of a free people that fought wars against their mother gentiles and then trampled the house of israel underfoot, while carryng the bible among them is not unique to the US but true for almost every single country in north and south america. there are many countries that made much fuller use of the book, there are even countries here with names taken from the bible. USA wasn’t even the first independent country in the promised land, that was paraguay, a land founded by priests and missionaries, unlike america, founded by freemasons and slaveholders, and where guarani. a lamanite language, is still widely spoken and is an official language. The USA is far less free than many countries in south america, where education is “given to all men liberally,” in the tribal consecratory manner instead of the white gentile/nephite tradition.

    “And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches.”

    they also have free healthcare, unlike the USA where people die due to not having the money to buy healing (you can buy anything in this world with money, even healing that you used to only get from god and his priesthood) uruguay no longer imprisons people for growing flowers, unlike the politicians in the USA who “turn aside the just for a thing of naught,” and continue funding the drug war and the cartels, killing and imprisoning people for using plants “which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” every single military dictatorship in south america has been proven unequivicaly to have been installed, armed, funded and mantained by the secret combinations in the USA. the BOM is not meant to be a record for US citizens alone, but for all the gentiles and remnant in the promised land, and lehi didn’t inherit only the USA, but all of this land, ie this landmass.

    the USA is not more free than the rest of the promised land, i think it is demonstrably less free than many other countries here, and it has been proven to “seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies”

    however, in the indian reservations in the USA, or the lands that the secret combinations have “given” to the remnant, there are different laws, there are different taxes, and there are different authorities. if the gentiles would truly repent and number themselves among the remnant and be one with them, they would suddenly find brigham and josephs dream of a free people independent of wicked king-men and their officers much closer to realization.

  42. Anarchy – I agree that the original Bill of Rights (first 10 amendments) are what is referred to ALONG WITH the wording of the constitution. Without the rest of the original constitution, the Bill of Rights have no power. The form of government AND the Bill of Rights ARE the constitution. It’s only the amendments that alter the function/change the core of the original constitution and original 10 amendments that are evil and need to be changed (such as the 16th & 17th amendments) in order to save the constitution. (I hate to use caps but have no other way of accentuating)

    Even with your view, that the constitution (frst 10 amendments according to you) could be saved, but not the nation, then for what purpose would it be saved, if the very thing it was created for was to create a nation and saving it would only be to preserve the nation?

    Also, a careful study of the words of Ezra Taft Benson will show he was not just referring to “a flag” or even “some flags” except for what they represent as a nation. He was inferring that he believes the nation would still be intact.

    One scripture that I believe people are using to defend the nation falling or the leadership of the church going astray is that of 3 Nephi 16:10. I believe they have the interpretation of this scripture all wrong and that this scripture doesn’t infer anything of the sort.

  43. remnant,

    “3/5ths of a person for apportionment” is not language inspired by God. The form of government given by the Constitution is man-made, and that doesn’t get God’s approval, for He only approves of what is inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is true that we Americans call the Constitution the entire document, but in the scriptures, when the word of the Lord uses the term “constitution” with His approval, He is not talking about the entire document, but only those parts that are inspired by Him.

    The Federalists advocated the core document (sans amendments), while the Anti-Federalists advocated the Bill of Rights. The Anti-Federalists were inspired of God, not the Federalists. It is not a question of “this is evil and that is good,” but of “this is of men and that is of God.” Only the Bill of Rights was inspired of God, the rest (including all the rest of the amendments) came of uninspired men.

    Even with your view, that the constitution (first 10 amendments according to you) could be saved, but not the nation, then for what purpose would it be saved, if the very thing it was created for was to create a nation and saving it would only be to preserve the nation?/blockquote>The Bill of Rights is not to create a government, but to protect a people from government oppressions. This government will cease to exist, but there will be other governments that take its place and the next governments to occupy this land must have these same protections, and thus they must and will be retained, for they are principles to be used in all governments, which is why they belong to all people and have God’s approval.

    Also, a careful study of the words of Ezra Taft Benson will show he was not just referring to “a flag” or even “some flags” except for what they represent as a nation. He was inferring that he believes the nation would still be intact.

    Yeah, I know. I wrote that tongue-in-cheek. Regardless of his beliefs, though, this nation is toast. His belief is based on the so-called hanging-by-a-thread prophecy and a misunderstanding of what God was talking about concerning the Constitution in the scriptures. If he understood properly that God was referring solely to the Bill of Rights, then he could have been able to understand that that prophecy, if indeed it is a true prophecy, could come to pass even with the demise of this current form of government and he would not have needed to hold fast to his erroneous belief that our government would never cease to exist.

    3 Nephi 16:10 says the following:

    And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

    Are you saying that people are using this scripture to show that the U.S. gov. will cease to exist and the church leadership will go astray?

  44. That’s a stretch to disconnect the 10 amendments from the actual constitution. The one is the government, the other to protect the people from the government. Remove the government, you have no need for the amendments and no formal way to enact or enforce any laws (or protect anyone’s rights).

    It’s also a stretch to infer that the most outspoken pro American prophet in this dispensation didn’t understand what the scriptural meaning of “constitution” was in D&C 101.

    The saving of the constitution hanging by a thread is at our door. If it will be preserved, it will be Elders of this church (you and me), but we must believe it in order to do it. It will be preserved and so will the nation, in order for the Lord to fulfill his covenants and gather the Lost Tribes of Israel.

    Yes, I think people have interpreted 3 Nephi 16:10 to allude that the church has gone astray and that the nation will fall, both of which are false in my opinion. I find it interesting that the Lord specifically states: “I will bring the gospel from among them” and in most commentaries, people replace “take” for “bring”. The Lord is not taking the gospel away from the Gentiles. Just the opposite!

  45. it will be the remnant of joseph and the repentant elders of israel, it will most certainly not be a bunch of white dudes acting on their own.

    you need to read the whole chapter, the gentiles reject the fulness, they do not go around spreading it to the world along with american culture and american military

  46. dallonj-

    Who do you believe are the Remnant of Joseph/Jacob? Who are the Gentiles? Are we to assume that the “Gentiles” refers to ALL of those considered Gentiles, or just the unbelieving of the Gentiles? Are most of the “Gentile” members of the church in this land literal descendants of the House of Israel or merely adopted in? What of those Gentiles that are not committing the whoredoms and abominations, etc.? If the Gentiles do repent, what are they promised? Who will they be numbered with? (see 3 Nephi 21: 6,22). The answers are hidden and may not be what you think.

  47. Let me know when you see white Mormons and lamanites calling themselves one people. The repentant Gentiles refuse to continue being Gentiles, as repentant lamanites at one time refused to live among or be called lamanites any longer, but we’re fully joined to the nephites, even willing to let their children risk death to protect them. Compare that to Brigham youngst extermination order for the utes at Provo lake and provo canyon

  48. Anonymous-

    I believe White Mormons and Lamanite Mormons do call themselves as one people with the simple term “Mormons” or more particular, brother and sister. While there may be some who may not embrace it as others do, you seem to be categorizing all “white” members with the unrepentant Gentiles or the term Gentiles exclusively to “white” members, when in reality, the term also encompasses those who are not members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who are gentiles and in fact outnumber members approx. 42-1 in the Land.

    If you are the same “anonymous” in previous comments, you also seem to use the terms USA, Gentiles and members of the church (repentant or not) synonym-sly with the secret combinations. Was this intentional?

  49. That’s nice but lamanites calling themselves Mormons is not a fulfillment of a prophecy that Gentiles will be numbered among lamanites. The scriptures never use the term gentile to mean non-Mormon, only to mean non-Israelite lineage. The Gentiles in the Book of Mormon are easily identifiable as according to nephites they’re the people who came across the ocean with the bible and started oppressing and scourging the lamanites, and they are described as being white. Joseph smith called himself and the entire church present at kirtland Gentiles, the lie that white Europeans are actually Israelites came later in brighams day. I am categorizing whie members as unrepentant, almost all of our members in the US have more money than our members in Africa an. South America can understand and they have rejected the fullness to consecrate and share their goods with them. Part of the repentance process outlined by Jesus is no longer self identifying as a gentile, but living among lamanites, and being one with them. If you aren’t doing that then you have not repented and are counted among the unbelieving Gentiles, the believing Gentiles refuse yo be Gentiles any longer and renounce the wicked traditions of their fathers.

    Secret combinations built to get power and gain are among all people, but they have a deep and entrenched foothold in US government, their signs tokens and symbols being all over the money and govt buildings here. They are within our church and are seeking to take control of it, as any other church, but they have a special interest on corrupting Mormonism since it is the only church which opposes the plan to exterminate the lamanites, along with the rest of the house of israel. No other church has revelations commanding then to take wife from them, to live with them, to learn from them, and no other church teaches that they will be instrumental in the last days in executing judgement on the wicked in the last days, or that they will be the principal workers kn the process of building the new Jerusalem. This teaching is well known to the combinations and they want to prevent it by continuing their genocide against the house of Israel worldwide. Secret combinations are not the same thing as ignorant white people, or the US gov or LDS INC. But all have been greatly deceived and controlled by the combinations

  50. That’s nice but it does not fulfill the prophecy that Gentiles will be numbered among the lamanites and join them in building the new Jerusalem. Calling each other Mormon and not consecrating does not entail repenting of our fathers rejecting the fullness. Gentiles are identified in the BOM as whit people from across the sea who brought the bible with them and both personally slaughtered and sent thief neighbors to slaughter, oppress and destroy the lamanites, fulfilling Leviticus 26 on them. A repentant gentile will repent of the generations of abominations commited against the house of Israel, and recognize that they and their ancestors have been in Satan’s power, and that they have been helping secret combinations accomplish their goals. Part if the repentance process outlined entails rejecting gentileness and leaving it behind, just as becoming a proselyte meant in the old days.

    Secret combinations have strong footholds here in the US their signs and tokens are all over our money and govt buildings and institutions. The combinations are very well aware of the future role of the lamanites in treading them down and establishing the new Jerusalem, that’s why they’ve run a genocidal campaign against them since they first arrived here, hoping to delay the inevitable. That is also part of their frat interest in corrupting the LDS church, no other church has revelations commanding Gentiles to take wifes from among the lamanites, or to be numbered among them, or to help gather them. As such the combinations have been trying to kill our prophets since day one, and trying to alter the doctrine, trying to get is to believe the British royal family’s lie that there are tons of Israelites in Britain, even though Joseph called every member of the church himself included a gentile in kirtland

  51. To bring FROM means the same thing as to TAKE or REMOVE. And the reason the truth would be removed from Latter-Day Ephraimites is because they would not do what they were commissioned to do with it. Which was to bring it back to the remnant. But the first step would be to accept those things that comprise the gospel of The Father. Its kind of important to note that all of the scriptures which speak of this accepting/receiving from and returning the favor to the remnant by gentiles always use the term “Fullness of the Gospel”. There are a lot of problems with assuming that Mormons have or ever did have the FULLNESS of the gospel.

    Historical problems include the fact that the prophet of the restoration was murdered before the restoration was complete and was replaced with free-masonic leaders from the same group that murdered him. The restoration was never meant to be a mere restoration of Christianity. In fact that would have been superfluous since Christianity was in full effect and spreading like never before by this time. Essentially Christianity contained the same polemic and has been infected with the same sickness, namely that the Messenger who brought the principles to them was murdered and then replaced by members of the same establishment that killed Him.

    But the more pressing problem that prevents the prophecy from being FULLfilled at this point is that the FULLNESS of the gospel, whether through Judaism, Christianity, Islam or Mormonism has never been contained in the surface teachings. The Book of Mormon is very explicit as well as the Koran (the Torah and Bible being more artfully veiled in their language regarding this principle) on the point that the GREATER things or the GREATER part….lets say the bulk of the gospel can only be obtained by those who accept the tip of the iceberg which is put out as a tester (not as if it were the totality of the gospel but as a vessel or point of access for the GREATER things which come from beyond via the lesser things). There are many of these lesser things that have been outright rejected and others that have been mistaken for or misused as literal idols thereby shutting off the spirit meant to flow through temporal precepts from God to man.

    All of this means that repentant gentiles will no longer identify as Mormons or Christians (or Jews or Muslim for that matter). We can not count as restoration something which is not the original way. And God has been around a lot longer than Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and certainly much, much longer than Mormonism. If individuals want to use these mediums as channels to tune in to the GREATER things then they are welcome to do so, but they had better get to it. Get going or be damned (stuck, stopped, blocked in progression).

  52. Anonymous & “You” – It sounds as though you both believe the Book of Mormon to be true, but also believe the current LDS church leadership since Joseph Smith has gone astray. Am I accurate with this review? If I’m incorrect, please clarify. If I am correct, I’ll try to express why I believe that is false, using the Book of Mormon.

    I believe “Fulness” can have two meanings. One meaning would be the fulness as a period of time in which the necessary 1) priesthood authority, 2) ordinances, and 3) doctrinal knowledge are found on the earth to implement the Father’s plan of salvation for His children.

    This does not mean “Fulness” in the sense that all that could be revealed has been revealed, however we also know that we live in the last dispensation, the dispensation of the “fulness” of times where all things will be revealed. And so we look forward to adding to what we currently have. In this latter sense of the word, I don’t believe the church has ever claimed to have a fulness…yet. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”

    I shared many of your same views with regards to the interpretation challenges with 3 Nephi 16 & 3 Nephi 21 (to just name two chapters) however with time, I’ve discovered that the titles such as “Gentiles” and “Remnant of Jacob/Joseph” aren’t always who we think they are. In fact, I think these answers were meant to be difficult to understand and require learning certain other points in order to be able to understand them. Many members of the church in the United States are literal descendants of Joseph and therefore are of the House of Israel. One of you stated that this is a “lie”. There is actually ALOT of evidence to back this up beyond the patriarchal blessings that have been issued that also endorse this. If this is true, and I believe it is true, then perhaps our preconceived definitions of who’s who, could alter our understanding of these chapters and verses. One question you might ask is: If the Gentiles are of the House of Israel, then why does the Lord refer to them as Gentiles? Actually, asking yourself this question and then studying it out, may yield some additional understanding to the identifying and associating modern peoples with those mentioned in these verses.

    Lastly, to “bring the gospel from among them” does NOT mean to take the gospel away from the Gentiles. it appears to mean this, and add fuel to the incorrect fire that the Church will be removed from the Gentiles or that the hands of power will change from the current leadership to the Lamanites, or others of the Lost Tribes. This is simply not accurate nor supported by scripture.

    Without giving you my full take on this, run this phrase through your minds and try to determine any other meaning that the words “I will bring the fullness of my gospel from among them?” What has the Lord referred to as the fulness of his gospel? And, what does him doing so aid him in fulfilling the next couple of verses?

  53. Doctrine & Covenants 20: 8-10

    8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

    9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

    10 Which was given by inspiration, and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels, and is declared unto the world by them

  54. Your assessment is incorrect, the church is the same state it’s always been in, under condemnation for treating the BOM and the mission to bring it to the lamanites lightly. To pretend the church is living the fullness is an insult to the fullness. Maybe the Gentiles here in America are mixed blood Israelites, but they are numbered among the Gentiles, because they accept their leaders and their holidays and their evil traditions and hate and despise the house of Israel. This church will pass away and die like all other churches, this church is not the house of Israel, nor the gospel , and it is not fulfilling it’s true purpose, we will have our season, but by and by the harvest cometh

  55. Anonymous-

    “The church” is not synonomous with the gentiles. You’ll notice that in 3 Nephi 16:8, it states: “But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them.”

    The warning is to the unbelieving of the gentiles, not to the believing gentiles.

    Also, do you believe that this is only referring to the Lamanites? Did not the gentiles also scatter another people? (see D&C 103)

    I think you may be presupposing every reference of “remnant” in the Book of Mormon is in reference to the Lamanites and in this, I believe you’re mistaken. There indeed are promises made to our Lamanite brethren and they are and will continue to be fulfilled.

    It’s apparent that you believe the book of Mormon. However, if this is the case then I believe you misunderstand it. You stated:

    “This church will pass away and die like all other churches, this church is not the house of Israel, nor the gospel , and it is not fulfilling it’s true purpose”

    Then what do you make of this?: 1 Nephi 14:12-14

    “12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

    13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

    14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.”

    Take away the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints and there is no church that fulfills this prophecy. Without this church, the Book of Mormon would not have been preached to the nations. No one else has done it.

    The term “gathering” referring to the promise to gather the House of Israel, means conversion. the gathering is accomplished as the people become converted to the truths of the restored gospel and receive the required ordinances of the gospel. Without the church, there is no gathering. But the gathering has been in progress or has already commenced.

    “5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;

    3 Nephi 21:6-7

    “6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

    7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.”

    Daniel explained that the image in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream represented future political kingdoms and that “in the days of [those future] kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: … but it shall break” these kingdoms into pieces and consume them. “And it shall stand for ever.”

    In 1831, the Lord told Joseph that the keys of the kingdom of God had again been “committed unto man on the earth.” He said the “gospel (this church) [would] roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands … , until it has filled the whole earth,” just as Daniel had told Nebuchadnezzar.

    We are at a pivotal stage where the Lord is about the awaken the gentiles and the Lost Tribes and give them all an opportunity to repent.

  56. Take away the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints and there is no church that fulfills this prophecy.

    Actually, not even the LDS Church fulfills this prophecy, for it says of the saints of God, that “their dominions upon the face of the earth were small”. The latter-day saints have no dominion upon the face of the earth. The secret combination and the states of the world own and rule everything and everyone. Sovereignty has not, as yet, been given to the saints of God, therefore, this prophecy is still future to us. Just two days ago I sent off an email to Rock Waterman where I quoted this very verse and explained to him that my prophetic understanding was that the Bartering Currency had, as its prophetic purpose, the paving of the way for the fulfillment of this very scripture, so that the saints could finally have complete and absolute ownership of lands and supreme authority (sovereignty), i.e.: dominion. So, it is ironic to find that you bringing up this scripture.

  57. Anarchist-

    Your “prophetic understanding”? Didn’t realize who I was talking to…

    The Church doesn’t currently own lands in other nations?

    Do you also agree as some others on this post that the church has gone astray? Do you also believe the secret combinations run the church?

    Your logic doesn’t make sense to me. If I understand you correctly, you are stating that the this scripture (1 Nephi 14:12-14) is not in reference to the current church as we know it because…. the “secret combination and the states of the world own and rule everything and everyone.”? therefore the church either doesn’t own lands OR the church is part of the secret combination. Is this what you are saying?

    But, because of some bartering currency, the saints will eventually own their own lands in all the nations and then this scripture will be fulfilled? And somehow, with the bartering currency, they’ll be able to actually own their own lands and have “dominion” or in the sense that you were referring to before, “sovereignty”?

    “Dominion”, can have different meanings. It’s obvious that the church wouldn’t have dominion in the sense you interpreted, if it’s numbers were few or small. But according to you, they would with “bartering currency”? Please confirm if I’m missing something.

    Your associations may be revealing the answers to my questions above.

  58. While so many of you have been sleeping and also “ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth” a trap has been laid and you are in it.

    White Horse prophecy; (37) At this point he made a pause, and looking up as though the vision was still in view, he said, “there is a land beyond the Rocky Mountains, that will be invaded by the heathen Chinese, unless great care and protection are given”…….

    Ether: (24) …………………when ye shall see these things come among you, that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you.

    It has become common knowledge that Senator Harry Reid and a law firm of which Harry Reid is the primary mover with his son Rory has brokered a illegal pact with the Chinese for land in Southern Nevada. This land will eventually provide a travel corridor from Northern Mexico, through Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Montana to Canada. See “Defending Utah, article ” Governor Hebert sells out Utah to the communist Chinese” this will be beachhead for a invasion of the western United States.

    (11) You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed; it will hang by a thread, and that thread as fine as the finest silk fiber.

    Obama signed on to a UN Treaty to disarm the American citizens in September 2013 and is to take effect Dec.14 of this year.
    Obama just signed a national park directive for lands of critical environmental concern that will basically steal 1.8 million acres of southern Nevada.

    In April of this year the BLM sought to finish a plan to provide a travel corridor for the “Chinese invasion”, it was to steal land from the “last standing Rancher, Cliven Bundy” it was meet with resistance from the militias and was at least temporarily defeated. A side note to this is the Zion National bank of Utah owns property that was once owned by Ranchers that were put out of business by the BLM. Two LLC owned by Harry Reid has purchased close to a hundred acres that were stolen by Harry Reid’s private army the BLM.

    All of you professing Mormons had better get active in every way you can to defeat what is sure to come. I have been trying to warn you for some time now, and yet I have seen very little from the LDS community. If you don’t rise up and get in front of the machine you will be mowed down.

  59. Brand-

    According to your views, how does this fit in with the other prophecies contained in the Book of Mormon & D&C about this land and the fulfilling of the the Lord’s covenant to gather the house of Israel?

    What additional scriptural basis do you have to support these claims?

  60. Hmmm… “that will be invaded by the heathen Chinese” jives well with LDSA’s speculations in
    https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/1-nephi-13-14-commentary-using-ctcs-view/
    to quote:
    “Literal future fulfillment: The Asian Gentiles (who are converted saints of God)—who left their Asian communist countries, who traveled over the Irreantum (Pacific Ocean), who are now living upon the land of America—humble themselves before the Lord and obtain the gifts and powers of the Holy Ghost.”

  61. @ Brand Thornton
    I agree that fedgov’s treatment of landowners is abominable. We know that the fedgov is owning ie holding hostage at least 30% of US soil.

    Even if every possible peace of land was justly homesteaded by each individual in this country, there would be still loads of unoccupied land.
    So what is the problem with letting the Chinese live and work on it rather than having it sit there unoccupied for another century?

  62. Joseph smith called them the heathen Chinese, it is a capital offense to even have a bible in China. The Prophecy speaks for it’s self in that great care must be taken as to prevent a invasion. I don’t believe he would have framed them as such if they were benign.

    The Lord told us in the D&C that any thing more or less than the US Constitution cometh of evil. Article 10 sec. 3 requires a treaty for such actions. This has all been done by fraud. and in fact this plan has been going on for enough time that 52 ranchers (LDS) have been defrauded of their land.

    D&C 103; 24 And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you to drive you from the goodly land, which I have consecrated to be the land of Zion, even from your own lands after these testimonies, which ye have brought before me against them, ye shall curse them.

  63. The Chinese have been amassing hardware and troops just south of our borders for some time. they own Cosco the only deep sea port on the west coast of America, sold to them by the Clinton administration.

    Click on my face book pic. and you can see many you tube video’s on this subject.

    Many LDS people and the church leadership do not endorse the “White Horse Prophecy” even tho much of it has been fulfilled after it’s inception.

    The fact is the Chinese want the western US for themselves and you are not included in their plans. They do not allow independent freedoms.

  64. I mean click on my name.

  65. The US Constitution provides for “legal” immigration so that these folks are familiar with are laws (Constitution) before they can have citizen ship.

    Right now Obama wants to through executive order (illegal) unilaterally declare amnesty. Many of these illegals are foreign agents setting up cells for future plans to over throw our form of government.

    Indeed this has been discovered and addressed by many border patrol agents and alternative news agencies.

  66. Brand-

    I believe the at D&C 103 is in reference to the early saints being kicked out of Jackson County, and the redemption of Zion to the same as future gathering place of the House of Israel.

    I don’t see a connection.

    If indeed true, what other scriptures might be inferring what you suggest?

  67. Not entirely reread it carefully, the whole section and cross reference it with D&C 101. Also God always uses types and shadows of things to come.

  68. rem,

    Your “prophetic understanding”? Didn’t realize who I was talking to…

    By “prophetic understanding” I mean that this understanding doesn’t come from my study of the scriptures, or current events, etc., but is according to the spirit of prophecy and revelation which is in me. In other words, this particular understanding came by the power of the Holy Ghost working in me, meaning that it is a prophecy of the future.

    The Church doesn’t currently own lands in other nations?

    Sure, it does, and also in this nation. But don’t you remember when the church was disenfranchised and lost all of its property? At no time has the church ever held dominion. The state laws reign supreme and at any moment the church can again have its property taken away from it.

    Do you also agree as some others on this post that the church has gone astray? Do you also believe the secret combinations run the church?

    Does not the Lord say in the Doctrine and Covenants that the church is in a state of condemnation? And this condemnation has not, yet, been lifted, so it can be said that the church has gone, and been, astray for a great many years.

    Now, just this past August, I had the indication that the current church is very much like the church described in 4 Nephi:

    24 And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.

    25 And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them.

    26 And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ.

    27 And it came to pass that when two hundred and ten years had passed away there were many churches in the land; yea, there were many churches which professed to know the Christ, and yet they did deny the more parts of his gospel, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness.

    28 And this church did multiply exceedingly because of iniquity, and because of the power of Satan who did get hold upon their hearts.

    From my vantage point, I see a disturbing trend. I see soft-hearted investigators who are eager to come to Christ get baptized and suddenly their hearts become hard. And I see members attend General Conference or church and come home having their hearts hardened. The church appears to be letting unworthy people (unrepentant people) get baptized, and, although the church professes Christ, it denies many parts of the gospel that are written in the word of God (the scriptures.) The scriptures and church protocols found in the scriptures appear to have been placed on the shelf. We profess a belief in the laws of the Lord, but do not follow them as they are written. Those who should be cast out from among us are no longer cast out, making the church unjustified, according again to the words of the Lord in the D&C.

    12 And him that repenteth not of his sins, and confesseth them not, ye shall bring before the church, and do with him as the scripture saith unto you, either by commandment or by revelation.

    13 And this ye shall do that God may be glorified—not because ye forgive not, having not compassion, but that ye may be justified in the eyes of the law, that ye may not offend him who is your lawgiver—

    14 Verily I say, for this cause ye shall do these things. (D&C 64:12-14)

    Instead, we perform a semblance of excommunication, a “form of the godliness” that is true excommunication, but do not follow the Lord’s procedures for removing dissenters. Thus, they ain’t ex’ed. And those who should not be ex’ed, get this mockery we have set up in place of true excommunication, which we call “courts of love.” The whole scene is perverse. We put temples only in places where there is enough tithing donations, using monetary donations as the standard to determine whether people are sufficiently worthy to have access to the Lord’s temple ordinances. Although we are not yet at the point where we forgive sins for money, church business investments is a real temptation for building churches to get gain. In other words, we ain’t literally there, yet, but the writing is definitely on the wall. We certainly don’t have all things common among us, and then there is the incredible pride currently found in the church:

    6 And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.

    7 Now this was the cause of much affliction to Alma, yea, and to many of the people whom Alma had consecrated to be teachers, and priests, and elders over the church; yea, many of them were sorely grieved for the wickedness which they saw had begun to be among their people.

    8 For they saw and beheld with great sorrow that the people of the church began to be lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and to set their hearts upon riches and upon the vain things of the world, that they began to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did not believe according to their own will and pleasure.

    9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.

    10 And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.

    11 And it came to pass in the commencement of the ninth year, Alma saw the wickedness of the church, and he saw also that the example of the church began to lead those who were unbelievers on from one piece of iniquity to another, thus bringing on the destruction of the people. (Alma 4:6-11)

    Who can deny that there are certain topics that cause the membership to divide and contend one against another? I’m not going to list all the wickedness I see among the church. What I’ve written is hopefully sufficient. Nevertheless, despite all of this iniquity, this is still the Lord’s church. But it certainly needs quite the overhaul, which the Lord will do in His own due time, through His saints and others.

    As far as the secret combination running the church, there is no doubt that the secret combination has its fingers in the church, as it does in many organizations. Nevertheless, the extent of that infiltration is unknown to me, so I can’t say that it “runs the church.”

    Your logic doesn’t make sense to me. If I understand you correctly, you are stating that the this scripture (1 Nephi 14:12-14) is not in reference to the current church as we know it because…. the “secret combination and the states of the world own and rule everything and everyone.”? therefore the church either doesn’t own lands OR the church is part of the secret combination. Is this what you are saying?

    There are many reasons why this scripture does not refer to our current times, but just taking the word dominion, which means “domain” and also “supreme authority (sovereignty),” the scripture’s fulfillment must be placed into the future, for the church has no sovereignty, nor does it have domain. Now, domain means “complete and absolute ownership of land.” The state still has eminent domain and can take away the church’s property. That is using the Merriam-Webster’s Online dictionary definition, but you can also consult the 1828 dictionary:

    http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/dominion

    But, because of some bartering currency, the saints will eventually own their own lands in all the nations and then this scripture will be fulfilled? And somehow, with the bartering currency, they’ll be able to actually own their own lands and have “dominion” or in the sense that you were referring to before, “sovereignty”?

    The Bartering Currency will pave the way for the fulfillment of this scripture, for people must have power to create money, control money, regulate money, etc., themselves, before dominion can occur. The Bartering Currency allows all people everywhere to monetize their silver and regulate its value, number of pieces, etc., outside of the control of the state, allowing dominion to finally go forth. Once a people has monetary power, all other powers they have will be, or can be, restored to them, so that eventually their sovereignty is restored. This is the prophetic mission of the currency, to pave the way, or be a forerunner, that this may occur. It is not specifically for the saints of God, but for all people, that they may liberate themselves, or begin to be liberated, from the dominions that have been placed upon them.

    “Dominion”, can have different meanings. It’s obvious that the church wouldn’t have dominion in the sense you interpreted, if it’s numbers were few or small. But according to you, they would with “bartering currency”? Please confirm if I’m missing something.

    What you are missing is what I actually wrote. I never said that using the Bartering Currency would immediately cause a person to have dominion. Dominion requires more than just monetary power and control. You also need to be armed, etc. Nevertheless, whoever controls the money also has control of what you can or cannot buy, including lands, goods, weapons, etc., so monetary power and control is of prime importance to the establishment of dominion. So, my exact words, which I will quote for you, were:

    “the Bartering Currency had, as its prophetic purpose, the paving of the way for the fulfillment of this very scripture, so that the saints could finally have complete and absolute ownership of lands and supreme authority (sovereignty), i.e.: dominion.”

    Although it is true that dominion can have different meanings, not all meanings fit the scriptural context. Plug in the shades of meaning from the 1828 dictionary for both the whore and the saints of God and see what fits. This scripture will be fulfilled literally, not just symbolically.

  69. Anarchist-

    Your comments about the church (in general, meaning the members in general) being wicked, etc. is understandable given many of the things we see and hear, and because much of it is prophesied in scripture to be the case, however to apply the same to the institution itself and those leading it, is borderline apostasy. You and I are not on the tower. We don’t have the same view as the watchmen. Many of your critiques are very one sided generalizations and lacking of all the facts (as if you were a juror, only you weren’t in the room during the trial and didn’t hear both sides).

    The “condemnation” you speak of spoken in D&C 84, has to do with their treating lightly the Book of Mormon. Do you believe there are some that are NOT still under this condemnation? (even thou all alive during that time are gone) Do you believe there is ANYONE that is not under this condemnation living? Or do you believe that EVERYONE is still under this condemnation and that they aren’t bringing forth the real fruit spoken of here?

    We both know that there are plenty of good saints that do bring the fruits and have remembered the Book of Mormon.

    Earlier, the Lord said this church is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—” D&C 1, this was of course given before D&C 84, but it’s apparent that the individual actions of the members are not always representative of ALL nor the church in general.

    Apparently, you believe the church can have dominions that are small across the nations of the earth that still qualify for “complete and absolute ownership of land” after the worlds governments and laws & currency topple, but not before? And that once this happens, there’s no way that they’d lose their lands? “Complete and absolute ownership” can’t apply to the lands the church owns now because the lands “could” be taken by governments, but after they’re all gone, then thieves, gangs, mobs, couldn’t take their lands like was done in early church history by the churches enemies after running us out? And not because there aren’t any laws/governments telling them they can’t but because they’ll respect ownership via a new currency that gives them legitimacy?

    At the time of 4 Nephi you referenced, the people had just come off of living the law of consecration. A definite decline. The analogy is poor, as we haven’t been there yet, but nor are we set up to live the law of consecration now. We can do much better in helping the poor and working toward the day that we have all things in common. This church does more for the poor than any other church and it does it in the Lord’s way. The members of the church fund all of it! I will agree that we have much wealth in the church members and we should do more.

    I don’t subscribe to your glass half empty pessimistic view, even though I acknowledge we have much to do. But an over emphasis on the negative leads to criticism, judgment and an holier than thou sentiment that also contributes to ours and others being deceived.

    I don’t see things as you see them. The people I see being baptized are seeking it. they’re growing and learning and being strengthened. They’re getting callings, making it to the temple & integrating well. Do some come through who are not fully committed? sure.

    Unfortunately, I think you’ve misinterpreted some scriptures and therefore have become critical of the church because of these misinterpretations and are on the lookout for problems among it’s members, it’s leaders and it’s future as a result all the while not recognizing you are in a small way contributing to the lack or weakening of faith in the members you seem to disdain.

    This is what the many bloggsters who claim to be pro-LDS all the while critical of everything LDS are doing, while not recognizing what they’re doing (maybe they do and they’re just disingenuous) which is hurting the weak among us. And then they cry foul after being excommunicated and continue and pile it on deeper as if they were offended to be cast out of an organization that they constantly disagree with and publicly criticize.

    Do you and they not believe that the Lord will right whatever it is that is not right? This is his church!

  70. rem,

    Your comments about the church (in general, meaning the members in general) being wicked, etc. is understandable given many of the things we see and hear, and because much of it is prophesied in scripture to be the case, however to apply the same to the institution itself and those leading it, is borderline apostasy.

    The church is the people. See What does the phrase “only true and living church” mean?. Saints are fully authorized to judge all things and call wickedness when they see it, whether they find it in the world, in the church among the general membership, or even among the leadership. There are no constraints put upon the saints of God, except as dictated by the Spirit of God, according to expediency. See Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed for more on this. Labeling a saint who performs this duty an apostate, is, in fact, what is actually apostate.

    You and I are not on the tower. We don’t have the same view as the watchmen. Many of your critiques are very one sided generalizations and lacking of all the facts (as if you were a juror, only you weren’t in the room during the trial and didn’t hear both sides).

    Saints are not jurors, they are called to be judges. There is not just a problem with the facts of the case, there is a problem with the very trial itself. See The doctrine against dissent for more on this.

    The “condemnation” you speak of spoken in D&C 84, has to do with their treating lightly the Book of Mormon.

    It had to do both with the BoM and keeping the commandments found in the revelations. This has been the problem ever since, for we have gotten away from the commandments found the revelations, producing our own man-made commandments to fill in the vacuum.

    Do you believe there are some that are NOT still under this condemnation? (even thou all alive during that time are gone) Do you believe there is ANYONE that is not under this condemnation living? Or do you believe that EVERYONE is still under this condemnation and that they aren’t bringing forth the real fruit spoken of here?

    We both know that there are plenty of good saints that do bring the fruits and have remembered the Book of Mormon.

    This is irrelevant, for the law is that we do our business by the voice of the people, and when the majority are not producing the fruit and are condemned for the hardness of their hearts, it brings the entire church under condemnation, because the unity of the saints is required to establish Zion and receive the other promises of the Lord.

    And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. (Mosiah 29:27)

    Yea, well did Mosiah say, who was our last king, when he was about to deliver up the kingdom, having no one to confer it upon, causing that this people should be governed by their own voices—yea, well did he say that if the time should come that the voice of this people should choose iniquity, that is, if the time should come that this people should fall into transgression, they would be ripe for destruction. (Alma 10:19)

    It doesn’t take 100% of the people to bring on such destructions, just a majority voice. Therefore, when a saint sees that the majority of the people are beginning to wax in iniquity, he or she cannot hold back his or her voice any longer, for these sure promises of destruction are real principles, that must be avoided at all costs, if possible.

    Apparently, you believe the church can have dominions that are small across the nations of the earth that still qualify for “complete and absolute ownership of land” after the worlds governments and laws & currency topple, but not before?

    There can be no dominion without independence:

    Behold, this is the preparation wherewith I prepare you, and the foundation, and the ensample which I give unto you, whereby you may accomplish the commandments which are given you;

    That through my providence, notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, that the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world; (D&C 78:13-14)

    To accomplish these commandments requires independence from all things, and above all things, including the state governments of the world. The only law it is to have, and will have, is God’s laws, which is why the Lord prophesied:

    Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand? (D&C 38:22)

    Regarding your comments about the saints being moved out of their place by mobs, etc., the Lord has promised this:

    And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

    But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them. (D&C 124:45-46)

    So, the use of a currency does not assure perpetual dominion, for it is obedience to the Lord that assures that. Nevertheless, the use of the currency will pave the way for the independence that the Lord prophesied to occur.

    At the time of 4 Nephi you referenced, the people had just come off of living the law of consecration. A definite decline. The analogy is poor, as we haven’t been there yet, but nor are we set up to live the law of consecration now.

    Actually we have been there, for the law of consecration was initiated in this dispensation during Joseph’s time, so we have declined from there to the current status. So the analogy actually fits. Now, we are not set up to live the law of consecration at the current moment, and why is that? Could it be that the reason is that the church is not yet independent, which the Lord had intended to accomplish during Joseph’s time? Could it be that if the church somehow could make itself independent, if only by degrees, that perhaps these laws could be initiated again, accomplishing the Lord’s design? If only we had some vehicle, prepared by the Lord, to create the necessary independence

    This church does more for the poor than any other church and it does it in the Lord’s way.

    You got hard facts to back up that claim or are you just shooting from the hip?

    I don’t subscribe to your glass half empty pessimistic view, even though I acknowledge we have much to do. But an over emphasis on the negative leads to criticism, judgment and an holier than thou sentiment that also contributes to ours and others being deceived.

    Lol. I think it’s funny that you say that you find my comments pessimistic and negative. Most people who know me say that I am overly optimistic and that I rely too much on faith. Heck, your comments about the Bartering Currency are totally negative and pessimistic, while mine are positive and optimistic about it. So, perhaps it depends on what topic is being discussed. Concerning the church, I am quite hopeful about it, but I also know the prophecies about its progression and digression and eventual glory, and am not wont to attempt to polish any turds I happen to see in it at present. My view does not seem pessimistic to me, nor negative, it seems merely unbiased. If I were biased, then I’d take the revelation I received many years ago that the church was the only true church and just gloss over any imperfections I saw in her, focusing only on the positive things, and never mentioning the negative things, or deviations from the word of the Lord. Would not this be a biased view? Or, if I were biased, perhaps I’d say that the church is totally corrupt and not worth any more time or effort, and that everyone ought to get out of her. Surely that is a negative and pessimistic view. But I don’t say that. I do like Alma and Amulek did, or said, to the people of Ammonihah:

    And now it came to pass that the people were more angry with Amulek, and they cried out, saying: This man doth revile against our laws which are just, and our wise lawyers whom we have selected.

    But Amulek stretched forth his hand, and cried the mightier unto them, saying: O ye wicked and perverse generation, why hath Satan got such great hold upon your hearts? Why will ye yield yourselves unto him that he may have power over you, to blind your eyes, that ye will not understand the words which are spoken, according to their truth?

    For behold, have I testified against your law? Ye do not understand; ye say that I have spoken against your law; but I have not, but I have spoken in favor of your law, to your condemnation.

    And now behold, I say unto you, that the foundation of the destruction of this people is beginning to be laid by the unrighteousness of your lawyers and your judges.

    And now it came to pass that when Amulek had spoken these words the people cried out against him, saying: Now we know that this man is a child of the devil, for he hath lied unto us; for he hath spoken against our law. And now he says that he has not spoken against it.

    And again, he has reviled against our lawyers, and our judges.

    And it came to pass that the lawyers put it into their hearts that they should remember these things against him. (Alma 10:24-30)

    Now, this is akin to what you have been writing, for you say that what I have written is borderline apostasy and that I have no jurisdiction to call out iniquity among the leadership, but I have such jurisdiction, as does any and every saint. I do not condemn the laws of the church, but only condemn what the church does (people and leadership), if it goes contrary to what the word of the Lord says, and does not accord to the law of expediency, but accounts as mere wickedness, then my duty as a saint is activated and I am called to speak as I deem fit. In this duty I actually re-affirm the Lord’s laws, or speak in favor of them, as did those prophets. Nevertheless, the Spirit does not call me to enter into the churches and call anyone to repentance, as yet, but as you have asked my beliefs concerning these things, then I will give them in this blog, at the very least.

    I don’t see things as you see them. The people I see being baptized are seeking it. they’re growing and learning and being strengthened. They’re getting callings, making it to the temple & integrating well. Do some come through who are not fully committed? sure.

    Full integration is not the issue. Spiritual rebirth is the issue. Are people coming to Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit? Or do they remain spiritually dead? Or, even worse, are their hearts becoming even harder, and thus they become deader than before, for whereas before they broke the commandments of God, now they break their covenants plus the commandments? Now, they may not break the same set of commandments, instead breaking a different set of commandments, but they now have a new condemnation, for now they are also covenant breakers. Instead of receiving the Holy Spirit, then, they receive the spirit of condemnation. I will write more in the next comment…

  71. rem (continued…),

    Unfortunately, I think you’ve misinterpreted some scriptures and therefore have become critical of the church because of these misinterpretations and are on the lookout for problems among it’s members, it’s leaders and it’s future as a result all the while not recognizing you are in a small way contributing to the lack or weakening of faith in the members you seem to disdain.

    Anywhere I have misinterpreted the scriptures, feel free to correct me. I have been corrected on this blog before, and I put these things up that others may offer their feedback and insights and also corrections, if they find it necessary to correct me. But surely the accusation of being “on the lookout for problems among it’s members, it’s leaders and it’s future” is a priesthood duty that I have, for am I not an ordained teacher? And is not the duty of teachers the following?

    The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them;

    And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;

    And see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty. (D&C 20:53-55)

    “All the members” encompasses the leadership, does it not? Thus none are exempt from my teacher’s duty, or, as the Lord said:

    Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness. (D&C 107:84)

    I have never been accused of “contributing to the lack or weakening of faith in the members”. That is, indeed, a first. Everyone has always told me that I instill and help to develop faith on Christ in those who either hear my words or read them. And truth be told, I do not disdain any members, but only wish that we all come to Christ and repent of our sins. Nevertheless, that you can read my words and come away with this impression is not encouraging. If you would cite the words that I have written that seem to indicate disdain, or that contribute to a lack of faith in Christ among the membership, or to a weakening of their faith in Christ, I would appreciate it, for the very last thing I want is to turn people away from the Lord. Now, if you are saying that I contribute to a lack of faith in the church, or in the leadership, that is perfectly okay, since we are only to exercise faith in Christ, and not in any man or men, nor in any group of individuals called a church. Having faith in such is sort of a form of idolatry, so learning that people read my words and shift their faith from a church to Christ would be an encouraging sign. You can let me know what you meant.

    This is what the many bloggsters who claim to be pro-LDS all the while critical of everything LDS are doing, while not recognizing what they’re doing (maybe they do and they’re just disingenuous) which is hurting the weak among us. And then they cry foul after being excommunicated and continue and pile it on deeper as if they were offended to be cast out of an organization that they constantly disagree with and publicly criticize.

    I cannot speak for other bloggers, but as for me, my writings on this blog are based upon the scriptures and also contain spiritual manifestations that I have received from the Holy Ghost, making this blog a repository of my understandings. My understandings are not based upon anything that comes from the mortal leadership of the church, but from only the immortal leadership of the church (Jesus and the Holy Ghost), canonized in our scriptures (the word of the Lord Jesus) and revealed by the manifestations of the Holy Ghost to me. I do not worship at the feet of any man, or any three men, or any fifteen men. I threw such idolatry off of me many years ago. If you are a worshipper of such men, then this blog will conflict with your views. Although these men have priesthood keys, so do I. And so do you, if you hold priesthood. So, although keys are important, they are not the be-all-to-end-all of doctrinal protocol. For more on this, see the blog posts, The Priesthood, An alternate view of the keys, and More church anarchy: autonomous quorums.

    Now, there are many things I could say about how things have gone off kilter in this church, but it would appear that you are an unbeliever, so why waste my breath? And there are many things that are very right in the church, namely, our scriptures. And it is the scriptures, which are the laws of the Lord, that I defend and promote, both the laws and the principles found therein, for these things lead to Christ and redemption. But apart from what comes from the Lord, I am not a fan of the things that come of men, and definitely not of the things that come of the devil. So, you cannot expect me to support anything that is man-made in this church. And merely saying that “the men who lead the church have keys, therefore, they are inspired of God,” is not sufficient, for I was a Catholic at one point, and the same argument is used there, also, and equally is incapable of holding water. Thus, there must be fruits, otherwise, none are approved of God, keys be damned. Now, to conclude this response to you…

    Do you and they not believe that the Lord will right whatever it is that is not right? This is his church!

    Of course the Lord will clean up His church, or will attempt to clean it up, but who do you think such cleaning will come from? Will it not be from the saints of God speaking up, according to their duty? And do you not think it will come from the remnant of Jacob in this land? The Lord commands, and those that obey Him are the ones who He sends to “clean things up.” Those who are unclean are not the ones sent, except as a punishment and chastening, to punish sinners, to stir them up in remembrance. But first He sends saints. And they speak up, and our duty is to listen to them and not tell them to shut their mouths. And if we ourselves are saints, then we also will be speaking up. Did not Nephi say:

    For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.

    Who do you think these prophets were? They were just members of the Lord’s church, who were sanctified by the Holy Ghost. In other words, these were saints, and they could not shut their mouths at the iniquity which they saw, but had to denounce and warn the people and the church at Jerusalem that they had to repent, otherwise they would perish or be taken captive. If a bunch of Mormon saints, so-called “average” members, not the leadership, suddenly start to stand up in sacrament meeting and in other meetings and denounce the practices of the church, calling out the iniquity which they say is going on, not being eye-witnesses, save that thus has the Spirit manifested to them, your ears ought to perk straight up, because this is how the Lord operates when there is iniquity in His church which is leading to destruction. He doesn’t utilize the leadership, but the member saints. So, it matters not that I am not privy to the secret meetings of the church. The Holy Ghost is privy and can communicate wickedness in high and secret places to the saints of God, and when they have it manifested to them, they can’t help but open their mouths.

    But, again, the Spirit does not tell me to publicly denounce the church, in person, as yet, so I would expect that no one else has gotten those orders, yet, either. Nevertheless, I can see where all this is heading, and can read the writing on the wall, so to speak, but the end is not yet, nor has the church reached the point of no return, as some seem to think. On the other hand, neither is the church guiltless (unjustified) in many of the things it is doing, therefore, we must remain unbiased in our judgments and neither throw the baby out with the bathwater, nor say that the water is clean in our blindness. We must recognize the filthiness of the water, and that the water is becoming ever more filthy, but that the baby is still precious, and worthy to be saved.

  72. perhaps we should continue this via email. You have my email. I don’t have yours.

  73. If you wish to talk in private, just send me a comment using the contact form on the far right column of any page of this blog, and when I respond, make sure you remember that the password is: anarchy


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