The Great and Abominable Church

2,575 words

© Anthony E. Larson, 2002

The Great and Abominable Church

Many surprises await the serious student of scripture and ancient history-revelations about our past and the true nature of the world we live in.  Most surprising, however, is the revelation that all is not as it seems in our culture and its most fundamental institutions.

For example, in the Book of Mormon we read about “a great and abominable church” seen by Nephi in his great revelation to emerge after the time of the original apostles and continue on up into the time of the Gentiles.  (Nephi 13:26.)  This vile institution is named disparagingly in both the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenants.  The natural conclusion is that Latter-day Saints should be able to identify it and thus avoid its dastardly influence.

However, as it turns out, the exact identity of this “church” is a matter of some conjecture and confusion among Latter-day Saints.  Most interpret Nephi’s statements to refer to the Catholic church.  However, that assessment may not be accurate since the great and abominable church was said by him to have “dominion over all the earth,” something well beyond the dominance of the Catholic church.  Others have argued that governments in general fill the bill of the “great and abominable church” for reasons that will become clear further on.

On the one hand, a careful reading of these scriptures indicates that Nephi simply spoke is general terms with the intent of depicting the division between good and evil in the world as churches.  “Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil …”-a point well made and easily understood. (1 Nephi 14:10.)

On the other hand, it appears that Nephi also intended to warn us of a specific institution in the world that would have a recognizable history and agenda.  He indicated that it would evolve as a religion.  Hence, it would be in a position to do considerable spiritual damage so that it would “blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.”  (See Nephi 13:26.)  Seemingly, any institution with such a history, sweeping influence and a despicable agenda should be easy to spot.  But the confusion among Latter-day Saints regarding this “church” indicates that this is simply not the case.

This begs the following questions:  How are we to guard against the wicked influence of an institution we cannot readily identify?  Is it possible, even likely, that this “church” is working its vile influence among the Saints today?  Does Nephi’s warning to us, the Gentiles, that we should avoid the trap, “that great pit,” that this institution might present to us goes unheeded since we do not seem to know which institution and ideas to defend ourselves against?

Clearly, a more careful analysis is in order so as to determine what this “church” might be and what harmful doctrines it may be imposing upon us.

To begin with, we must go back in history to see if we might thereby learn the nature and origin of this “church” and how it manages to “blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men” in order to understand how it might insinuate its distorted ideas and values into our lives.

Additionally, what the Book of Mormon prophet foresaw as a “church” may appear to be an entirely different institution in our eyes.  Thus, the organization we seek may not appear to us to be a church at all, judging by a reading of all references to it, even though that word used by Nephi to designate it might also be appropriate, given its historical development from the true church. 

Let’s look at history to possibly learn more about this “great and abominable church.”

It is well understood by Latter-day Saints how the primitive church ceased to function in its purity when revelation ceased after the death of the early apostles.  History indicates that what was once the true church metamorphosed into the Catholic church, still preaching some tenets of the true church, but having denied much that is “plain and most precious.”  Hence, many have sought to show that the Catholic is the “great and abominable church,” but that may be an oversimplified, partial truth, as we shall see.

Moving forward in time, we see that the Catholic church grew to dominate Western cultures.  It came to be the universal church that largely governed the Holy Roman Empire.  Thus, it can be correctly argued that the church also became a form of shadow government, ruling all the empires of the West for centuries thru the Papacy.

This condition endured for centuries until a handful of reformers decided to challenge the precepts and practices of the mother church.  The Reformation, as this confrontation and religious schism came to be known, gave rise to numerous protesting groups or churches in Christianity, hence the term Protestant.  These new churches, even when taken together with the Catholic, fall short of the malevolent church we seek since they still fall short of a worldwide institution.

Yet, there was one institution born during the Reformation that deserves our special attention, one that declined to call itself a church yet has all the earmarks of a religion.  The tactic employed by this group was to denounce religion as anathema to logical, rational thinking and investigation.  This group proclaimed that all religion was misguided, that it was a blight on the quest for knowledge since religion employed faith rather than intellect.  Their group, they proclaimed, would avoid any such stigma by distancing itself from religion altogether.

Ironically, this newly born institution, which refused to call itself a church, took on many characteristics of a religion, or church, as we shall see.  As its adherents went about organizing this new institution, it evolved much as the other protesting religions with its own dogma, catechism and priesthood.

This institution is orthodox science.

Naturally, the implication that science might be part of Nephi’s “great and abominable church” might be shocking and outrageous to some.  Nevertheless, as we shall see, such may well be the case.  Normative science, as an institution, fits Nephi’s description in that it pervades all societies and cultures worldwide and it contradicts and disparages all the basic tenets of the true religion, all the while making it difficult for the faithful to understand vital parts of the restored gospel.  And while the search for knowledge is noble and proper, what passes as science, in too many instances, is actually institutionalized ignorance.

More analysis is necessary to establish the case in point.

History reveals that science began in the Renaissance as an alternative philosophy to religion, a reactionary rebellion opposed to the intellectual repression of the dominant orthodox church.  Galileo’s struggle with ecclesiastical authorities to prove that the Earth was not the center of the universe is a quintessential example.  In effect, it can be said that science was simply one of several Protestant movements, born in the Reformation, all of them giving rise to modern religious institutions.

Science, however, sought to convince the world that it was not a religion but a philosophy.  However, in practice, as an institution, science began to operate much like a church.  When one looks closely at science as a belief system and at its satellite institutions, it looks remarkably like a religion.  Hence, Nephi’s decision to call this new institution a “church” was accurate.

The similarities between the science church and normative religion are striking.  Consider, for example, that this new movement ultimately copied the organization it diverged from when it established its education and training arm: universities.  Education had formerly been the responsibility of the church clergy.  One had to be educated to become a clergyman and vice versa.  Today’s universities, the incubators for our young scientists and scholars, began life in the Renaissance as the educational arm of the church-seminaries, in effect-and they still carry remnants of those religious trappings.  Indeed, seen from this perspective, the role of the university is to indoctrinate or inculcate the precepts of the science church. 

As the result of its origins in arcane religious orders, the terminology used in modern universities still hearkens back to its roots.  For example, graduates don the robes, caps and gowns that can be traced back to ancient monastic and sacerdotal orders.  It is for this reason that Dr. Hugh Nibley, a former BYU religion instructor once asked in his opening prayer in a convocation exercise that God might forgive those attending for wearing “the robes of false priesthood.”  Additionally, upon graduation, universities bestow ‘degrees,’ a term still used in many religious orders today, such as Masonry, to designate the rank or status of practitioners.

We call those who teach in these institutions of higher education ‘professors’ rather than teachers because they originally did far more than teach; they professed a belief and faith in things metaphysical or spiritual to the initiates or students.  Those who enroll in universities are said to ‘matriculate,’ the word coming from the Latin ‘mater’ or mother, meaning that initiates had enrolled in the ‘mother’ church.

The science church established its own dogma or doctrine, which it promulgates through the universities.  It found its ‘catechism’ in Uniformity or Gradualism as well as Natural Selection or Evolution.  Its sacrament is Rationalism and Empiricism; the tenets of the Newtonian universe became its articles of faith.

Latter-day Saints should readily recognize that all of the above named theories stand in direct contradiction to many tenets of the restored gospel.

As a further example of science as a church, those who fail to adopt or contradict the science church dogma find themselves shunned or excommunicated from the scientific community, just as in religion, no matter how inspired or workable their theories.  The example of Halton Arp, a Nobel Prize winning astronomer, demonstrates the process.  In spite of his elevated status in the scientific community, when Arp brought forth evidence that contradicted some of the fundamental tenets of astronomy he was systematically denied telescope time and barred from teaching his views in any effective forum.

Oddly, since science rejected the Catastrophism of religion, it had no eschatology until the nuclear age dawned.  The atomic bomb and the nuclear holocaust it foreshadowed became science’s eschatological vision of a world-ending cataclysm and nuclear winter brought on by mankind’s super technology.

Still more odd, the religionists immediately agreed, thus abandoning their historic Catastrophist views, rooted in Holy Scripture, wherein God was said to be the agent of latter-day destructions.

The “Big Bang” hypothesis is simply the science church’s version of creation.  The Unified Field Theory is science’s Holy Grail, which is just as elusive and ephemeral a prize as the religious/mythical grail.

An objective examination of history thus reveals that the religion of science, having spread its influence world-wide, crossing every cultural and ethnic boundary, is clearly a candidate for the scriptural “great and abominable church.”  But the primary reason it qualifies is because it contravenes and contradicts the precepts of the restored gospel at almost every turn-much more so than the tenets of any other religious denomination.  Additionally, as we have seen, it emerged from the Reformation along with most of the other Christian sects.

As alluded to earlier, the basic doctrines of science are badly flawed.  Past Eschatus issues have delved somewhat into these faulty theories.  Catastrophism teaches us that gravity is not a constant, that the sun is not a thermonuclear engine, that there was no ‘big bang’ to start creation, that the galaxy and the universe are organized and powered by electrically charged plasmas, that our solar system did not coalesce out of raw matter circling the sun, that geologic history did not occur over “billions and billions” of years, as we have been taught, and that the world and its heavens have changed dramatically in historic times, just to name a few precepts.  Any Latter-day Saint who fully embraces the fundamental doctrine of the restored gospel knows that Evolution or Natural Selection is a flawed concept.  Thus we see, in summary, that on almost every count the fundamental doctrines of the science church are false.

By holding on like grim death to baldy flawed axioms in the face of mounting evidence against them, orthodox science does great harm to all mankind.  As in Galileo’s case where the Catholic church opposed a truly enlightened view of the evidence, holding on instead to its flawed dogma, now it is orthodox science that impedes progress by creating vacuous, ad hoc theories to explain phenomena that do not fit its doctrine while either utterly ignoring evidence that contravenes its doctrine or summarily dismissing it without consideration.  It is the science church that now stands in the way of progress.  Thus, the science church fulfills the scriptural prediction that it would “pervert the right ways of the Lord” and “blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men,” fully qualifying it as the great and abominable church of which Nephi wrote.

Sadly, modern Mormons have been largely reconciled to science, generally accepting the doctrines of the science church as fact-something that would have horrified early Saints.  Mormons have accommodated the apparent conflict between science and revealed religion by living with a glaring dichotomy to which most turn a blind eye-a clear case of doctrinal denial.  On the one hand Latter-day Saints profess a belief in the gospel while at the same time accepting as fact the dogma of the science church that contradict those beliefs, leaving modern Saints with a kind of intellectual and spiritual schizophrenia that blinds their eyes and hardens their hearts, just as Nephi said it would.  No wonder he warned us so stridently about this “church.”  It has done precisely what he warned us it would do, corrupting the Saints’ understanding of the gospel, causing them to disregard, to one degree or another, the revelations from God.

Make no mistake.  This is not a diatribe against learning or discovery, nor is it a condemnation of the restored gospel and the religion that champions it.  It is a denunciation of Saints who allow themselves to fall into the trap laid by the science church.  This is a harangue against science as an institution, an obdurate organization that enshrines tenure and the status quo which that practice promotes, that uses a peer review system that stifles new approaches to problems and new ideas.  Not only does it not promote the dispassionate inquiry it so mightily proclaims, it works diligently against it by suppressing anything beyond its established, but flawed, paradigm.

That is not the way to enlightenment.

True science can have no conflict with revealed religion, as so many latter-day prophets and apostles have declared.  Yet, orthodox science continues to wage war with the Saints, demeaning and contravening gospel precepts at every turn.  The science church has become as intractable and detrimental as the church from which it disengaged.  It certainly qualifies as Nephi’s “great and abominable church” in every respect.  Clearly it is a fraud perpetrated on the entire world.

So, Nephi was right.

As “children of the light,” Latter-day Saints would do well to heed Nephi’s warning, to oppose the “great and abominable church” now that we have identified it.  We may oppose it by not letting it mould and shape our paradigm, by opposing its dogma and criticism of us.  Rather, we should test all theorems by the standard of the revealed gospel.





  1. I’m glad to see that you have gotten the hang of the Word Press editor. Does this mean you are going to stick around a bit longer, then?

    Regarding the post: I thoroughly enjoyed it.

    (what4anarchy, what did you think of this post?)

  2. Yes, I’ve got the hang of it. But, it’s still akward.
    Nevertheless, you’ve been so generous and solicitous by inviting my input that I can hardly decline. I guess you could say I’m an anarchist at heart. (grin)
    My entire motivation is to put this information before church members so that they can have the opportunity to decide its value for themselves. In my opinion, there is far more to the restored gospel than most Saints know or even contemplate. The Internet is my only portal, my only connection to them. At present, it is my sole outlet. I am predisposed to use any communication avenue that presents itself. That why I became an author and journalist 30 years ago. More recently, it’s the reason why I’ve become a computer nerd.
    So, I guess you could say that I’m here to stay … thanks to the interest and generosity of people like yourself. Many thanks.

  3. “. . .there is far more to the restored gospel. . .” and you won’t find it at Deseret Book, so thank you so much for responding to our itch and giving a glimpse as to what may have been causing it this whole time.

    Thank you from those of us who are too distracted (or just not smart enough in my case) to put it all together.

  4. When you graduate from high school, college, or university, you wear the black robes and the black square miter (called a “mortar board”, a tool of masonry) of the Saturnalian priesthood.

    We also engage in Saturnalian worship (warship?) when we appear before the bar in court, the judge being the priest of Saturn in black robes and all. The judge is priest over money, and his “bench” rules for the “bank”. The role of money (currency) also falls upon the Saturnalian priesthood, in ancient Rome money was coined at the Temple of Juno Moneta on Capitoline Hill.

    Notice the amount of maritime language involved, “currency”, “banks”, cash “flow”, “liquidity”, etc. “America” is even a maritime word which means, “a land or country under maritime law”, and we even fly the maritime flag of the United Kingdom’s East India Company! France was the first “America” maritime country. The name has nothing to do with Amerigo Vespucci, that story is a fabrication proffered by social studies teachers.

    Remember, Satan has power over the waters, and here we are living in a country where the “law of the water” has been superimposed upon the “law of the land”.

    When I graduated from high school, I felt a strong prompting not to attend any further educational institutions (besides I was already working professionally as a hacker for ISPs). Perhaps it was a prompting from the Holy Ghost after all that I stay free of these institutions.

    We must be great lawyers the same as Joseph Smith, Jr., was a great lawyer if we ever wish to discern the position we are in today (the greatest lawyers of all learn by the gift of the Holy Ghost).

  5. It’s call the Law Merchant. Once used for martime commerce, it was adapted for use in interstate commerce law. That’s why your car or vehicle is sometimes referred to as a “vessel” by your DMV. That’s why state’s maintain “ports of entry” where highways cross boarders. That’s why we call transportation of goods “shipping,” and the cargo manifests “bills of lading.” The “bar” that attorneys belong to is not for consumption of adult beverages; it’s the shoreline, where the law merchant held sway.

  6. You make a great point that scholasticism and scholarchs are an integral part of the “great and abominable church”, but I don’t think you do a good job making science out to be a part of it. You even say yourself, “True science can have no conflict with revealed religion…” I know this delves into semantics, but I prefer to see science as a process and scholarship and academia as the institution.

    It’s like a shovel, science is. I can dig a hole 12 feet deep and gain access to the waters of life to vitalize a community; or I can dig a hole half as deep, bash your face in, and bury you there. The shovel is a neutral tool, it is all a matter of what I do with it. This is how I see “science”.

    Personally, I think I can find support for evolutionary processes and “Old Earth” theories in Scripture. Maybe you cannot see this plain and simply in the same language (we are reading the same scriptures, after all). As far as I’m concerned, it’s okay if you must believe that this physical earth is only as old as civilized man himself. Disagreements are a matter of “opinion”, not “science”.

    Let’s undertake a simple exercise in mathematics. As Mormons, we’re more familiar with the “1 day for God is 1,000 years for man” concept than are most Christians (2 Peter 3:8-9; Psalm 90:4). There is also a lot in Scripture about the dispensation of man being “time, times, and half a time”, or y = x + 2x + x/2, or y = 7 * x/2, or y = 3.5x (Daniel 5:25, 7:25, & 12:7; Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, & 13:5). There is a sort of consensus that this refers to a three and half year period of time. So: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,” let’s “be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day”, and let’s apply that to the 3 1/2 year dispensation of man, taking the view of God’s perspective:

    y = 3.5(365 * 1,000)

    y = 1.2775 million years

    If we inquire of “orthodox science”, evolutionary theory, and the geologic record, we discover that ~1.3 million years ago the Earth finished its last geomagnetic polar reversal and Homo erectus stood upright (presumably before the Lord).

    “In their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. The ancient verdict against them is still in force, and their destruction is not delayed.”

  7. Thanks, Glider, for your kind observations. I’m glad I could help a bit.
    It’s not that I’m less distracted or smarter. Life always intrudes with it’s demands, and I can’t remember where I put down what was in my hand just moments ago. (grin)
    It’s really just a matter of perception. When your gospel research picks you up and takes you out of the ordinary landscape with its pat interpretation of things and then plunks you down in a new place you’ve never seen before, it dramatically alters your perception of the world around you. Following the clues where they led rather than letting the preconcieved notions of others determine my course has led me to see many things more clearly. If I can do it, anybody can do it.

  8. y = 3.5(356 * 1,000) = 1.2775 million years

    In English, that’s “three and a half years of days of 1,000 years” or “three and a half years where each day is 1,000 years”, or 3 1/2 years according to God’s reckoning.

  9. Responding to this comment:

    Anthony, you are welcome. I just got this blog listed with and a quick perusal today of that blogregator shows LDS Anarchy (the blog, not the state of affairs) all over the place. So, your desire for a wider LDS audience is happening. (The aggregator is said to bring in a lot of new visitors to those blogs listed there.)

  10. LDS Anarchy may have been all over the place on MormonBlogs a few days ago, but all those links have vanished now. Gone. Why is that? I’m guessing we’re to heretical – even for the heretical crowd.

  11. Enjoyed your article concerning the Great and Abominable Church (GAAC) more so than any I’ve read. I particularly like the view that men will come to worship their own learning and wisdom. This concept is often discussed in the Book of Mormon in connection with the GAAC. (2Ne 9:28-29, 2Ne 28:15, 1Ne 13:7, 27). Remember the LDS Church teaches the glory of God is intelligence.

    However, I must disagree with one part of your premise. That premise is that it will be orthodox science alone that embodies this GAAC. The Book of Mormon defines the GAAC as having a corrupted book of scripture as its foundation. BTW, the LDS Church changed certain words within 1Nephi Chapter 13, to obscure this fact. It now reads that the Devil is the foundation of the GAAC.

    A person must first understand how the GAAC has always existed among mankind. It grows up like weeds in a garden, whenever Christ has establishes his church among men. The two always coexist to some extent. Remember the parable of the Lord of the vineyard. However, the Book of Mormon warns of something unique and much worse than the Great and Abominable churches of past history. The Catholic Church and the Bible is merely a microcosm of what’s will come.

    The Book of Mormon tells of a Church that will be, “Most abominable above all others.” This church will be worse than any in history and it will have dominion and influence over all the earth. To do this it must be in association with corrupt government on a global scale much like the Catholic Church and it’s relationship with the Roman Empire and the nations states that evolved from it.

    This GAAC will have influence because of a book of scripture that is plain and precious and easy to the understanding of mankind. The book will have tremendous power to convert people. But the GAAC will withhold certain parts of the text, in order to blind the eyes and harden the hearts of people.

    I’ve had the rare privilege to learn that the book spoken in 1 Nephi Chapter thirteen, has yet to make its public debut. It is not the Bible, as LDS members believe and it is not the Book of Mormon but another scripture discussed many times by the Book of Mormon and even mentioned in the New Testament.

    All the best,

  12. I’ve had the rare privilege to learn that the book spoken in 1 Nephi Chapter thirteen, has yet to make its public debut. It is not the Bible, as LDS members believe and it is not the Book of Mormon but another scripture discussed many times by the Book of Mormon and even mentioned in the New Testament.

    Where did you learn about this yet-to-be-released book? Are you talking about the book of the Lamb or the plates of brass?

    Personally, I like to think that the Great and Abominable Church is a culture more than it is an institution. I tend to think that anyone who thinks they’re not a part of the GAAC is a part of the GAAC.

    Church, council, ecclesia, kirk, circle: all these words come from the same root. They mean “a gathering of persons around a common center of interest”. When that common center of interest is “modern” culture, there you have the world’s largest “church”.

    I have received revelation which unequivocally declared that we have all been tricked into worshiping the Sun-god, that we are all therefore in violation of our covenant with the real God, and that judgment is thereby pending and imminent.

    Prior to this dream of July 4th, 2006, I was an “atheist”; after the dream, I felt called back into the “body of Christ”, and I felt that I needed to return to tithe-paying membership in the religion of my youth. While I am back in Church and enjoying it, I still feel as though our Church is part and parcel to this Great and Abominable Church [as are all other churches]. I think the Mormon church has been going through a mini-apostasy since the death of Joseph Smith, Jr., and that the work of completing the restoration is yet-to-be-done by one mighty and strong (but God’s house is a house of order, so I expect the restoration to be completed through the Church and Priesthood in which it began).

  13. Derek P. Moore,

    In response to your question, “Where did you learn about this yet-to-be-released book?”

    I first learned of it over 20 years ago from a man I believe was a prophet of God. Unfortunately, he is no longer among the living. A quadraplegic for over 30 years, he died a long time ago as a result of his deteriorating health. At first he would not tell me all he knew concerning 1st Nephi Chapter 13, but encouraged me to pray and study. In time I came to learn what he knew and more. It was inspired wisdom in him to make me struggle to gain that knowledge. It helped both of us grow spiritually and rely on the Spirit of God to reveal what was so plainly in front of our eyes for so many years. When we finally came to understand this chapter of the Book of Mormon more fully, it seemed impossible for all the global circumstances described to come about. Yet in just a few decades the Soviet Union fell and the European Union is now well established and we’re getting poised for global conflict.

    “Are you talking about the book of the Lamb or the plates of brass?”

    I’m a bit confused by the question. The book of the Lamb will be on metal plates like the Brass Plates of Laban were. However there will not be as many plates and therefore it will be much smaller. We rarely call it the book of the lamb but call it by the name of it’s redactor.

    I disagree with your statement about the GAAC being just a culture. I assure you it will be an institution. Regarding your statement concerning the LDS Church being part and parcel with the GAAC, I could not agree more but we must remember the wheat always grows up with the tares. I also agree with your statement about apostasy during the early days of the church but it is also my personal belief that Joseph Smith fell into apostasy long before his death. Most of his teachings are false doctrines denounced by the Book of Mormon in every respect.

    I am glad you are back in church. I wish I were there with you. I miss the association of people with shared values and a sense of purpose. However that is not to be.

    Hope this answers your questions and I have not given offense.

  14. CTC,

    By asking what book you’re speaking of, I really meant, “What book is it?” What is the name you call it (it’s redactor’s name)?

    Your ideas sound similar to those of a number of people I have corresponded with, including Stephen Davis:

    There seems to be a veritable “first edition of the Book of Mormon” movement growing (I wouldn’t consider this a bad thing, but I have to reject trinitarian and Jesus-is-God-the-Father concepts, even if they were in the first edition — it is simply a matter of personal logical preference [i.e., I believe in the “grand council of gods and goddesses” as Eloheim, so I don’t believe the Eloheim is “God the Father” either {but I do believe God the Father is part of the Eloheim or will be admitted into the Eloheim when he gives an account of his stewardship to his God at the end}]).

  15. Derek,
    I have never heard there was such a “movement” to return to the basics of the Book of Mormon. Yes, I suppose I do fit that description. Some of the Stephen Davis material you linked me to looks interesting but then he seems focused on the LDS Church sins of commission instead of the doctrines they omit. Are there any other similar groups you are aware of?

    Regarding 1st Nephi Chapter 13; In a nutshell, this chapter tells of a Church that will be most abominable above all others in human history. The Book of Mormon tells how Christ will deal with this situation and it flatly names the great redactor that wrote the book at the foundation of this great church. I don’t want this to seem like a game of charades but it’s better if you learn some things for yourself without any influence from another human being; just you and the Spirit of God. You may not appreciate my evasiveness now but you will later. Let me say that much of Nephi’s vision is not chronological. The vision fast-forwards and then skips back. This is a “HUGE” key to understanding the vision and the text is clearly but subtly marked so you’ll know when the angle is about to hit the fast forward button and the reverse buttons on human history. If you arrive at the same conclusions as I have, then we will both know that we’ve been led by the same Spirit.

    Let me remind you of one more thing. The Devil will feed you a thousand truths to get you to choke to death on one lie. He is smart but knows he cannot win. His goal is to create as much destruction and havoc as he can in destroying the souls of mankind. Should you wish to discuss it sometime offline, I would enjoy such a conversation.


  16. In my first edition BoM, that text is in the middle of Chapter 3. I read 1 Ne. 13 (LDS Edition) a couple of times the other day.

    1st Nephi, pp. 30-32

    And the angel of the Lord said unto me, Thou hast beheld that the Book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew, it contained the plainness of the Gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God; wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity, unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God; and after that they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles; behold, after this, thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is the most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the Gospel of the Lamb, many parts which are plain and most precious; and also, many Covenants of the Lord have they taken away; and all this have they done, that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord; that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, thou seest that after the Book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the Book, which is the Book of the Lamb of God; and after that these plain and precious things were taken away, it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity; and thou seest because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the Book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God; and because of these things which are taken away out of the Gospel of the Lamb an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them; nevertheless thou beholdest that the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations upon the face of the land, which is choice above all other lands, which is the land which the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father, that his seed should have, for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of they seed, which is among they brethren; neither will he suffer that the Gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren; neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that state of awful woundedness which thou beholdest that they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the Gospel of the Lamb which hath been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen; wherefore, saith the Lamb of God, I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the House of Israel in great judgment.

    And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after that I have visited the remnant of the House of Israel, and this remnant of which I speak, is the seed of thy father; wherefore, after that I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles; and after that the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the Gospel of the Lamb which hath been kept back, by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb; wherefore, I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, saith the Lamb, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them in mine own power, much of my Gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb; for behold, saith the Lamb, I will manifest myself unto they seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after that thy seed shall be destroyed and dwindle in unbelief, and also, the seed of thy brethren; behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb; and in them shall be written my Gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation; and blessed are they which shall seek to bring forth my Zion in that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end, they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the Everlasting Kingdom of the Lamb; yea, whoso shall publish peace, that shall publish tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.

    And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew; and I beheld that it came forth from the Gentiles, unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren; and after it had come forth unto them, I beheld other Books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles, unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles, and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also to the Jews, which were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, are true.

    And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which is of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Saviour of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved; and they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of they seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore, they shall be established in one, for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth; and the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews, and also unto the Gentiles; and after that he hath manifested himself unto the Jews, and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles, and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

    p. 33

    And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he saith unto me, Remember thou the covenants of the Father unto the House of Israel? I saith unto him, yea. And it came to pass that he saith unto me, Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose foundation is the Devil. And he saith unto me, Behold, there is, save it be, two churches: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the Devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God, belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

    And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

    And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore which sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, which were the Saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominion upon the face of the earth was small, because of the wickedness of the great whore which I saw.

    And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

    p. 34

    And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying, Look! And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe; and the angel said unto me, Behold one of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb! Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been; and he shall also write concerning the end of the world; wherefore, the things which he shall write, are just and true; and, behold, they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written, were plain and pure, and most precious, and easy to the understanding of all men. And, behold, the things which this Apostle of the Lamb shall write, are many things which thou hast seen; and, behold, the remainder shalt thou see; but the things which thou shalt see hereafter, thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the Apostle of the Lamb of God, that he should write them. And also, others which have been to them, hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up, to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the House of Israel.

    And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the Apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel.

    Inventory of Books:

    — the Book of the Lamb of God from the mouth of a Jew
    — the Book perverted by Gentiles through the great and abominable church
    — other Books from the Gentiles by the power of the Lamb shall establish the truth of the first and shall make known the truth to all kindreds, tongues, and peoples where the harlot of the waters has dominion
    — the Book of John the Apostle of the Lamb of God
    — the Books of others shown all things to come forth in purity in due time

    Did I get that right?

  17. Right as far as the Redactor. We call the book “The Record of John.”

    There is so much portrayed by these verses concerning future events and the mindset of people. World War III, an ancient scripture, how it spreads worldwide, how a church more abominable than any in history corrupts the scripture, what this church does and why and how the Lord plans to topple it so great will be the fall thereof. These are just a few things in this portion of Nephi’s vision.

    My own personal synopsis follows below. Remember Chapter 13 is not sequential on time chronology it jumps forward to a time the Great and Abominable Church is in full swing, only to digress and show Nephi how it all comes about.

    The Record of John the Revelator is a little book spoken from his own mouth and was written on brass plates, like unto the brass plates of Laban except there are not so many plates. This book does not come to us until long after the Gentiles of the Americas have “completely” subdued the Lamanites (late 1800s to early 1900s) and then go through a period of great prosperity, causing them to forget God and his commandments, a theme often repeated by the Nephites in the Book of Mormon. A great war occurs with the their (Caucasian) mother gentile nations of Europe, a United States of Europe (European Union / NATO). Causes for the war are not mentioned but this war is horrific with huge loss of life and hardships consistent with an invasion of the Americas. It “compels” the Gentiles of the Americas to humble themselves. The Gentiles are delivered only through divine intervention, a result of their humility, which also merits their receiving the Record of John shortly after this war. John acts as a redactor much the way the prophet Mormon did and his little book is a compilation of teachings from the original twelve Apostles. The Gospel of Christ is presented simply and plainly and it will show us how the Apostles managed so many mass conversions during the days of the Roman Empire. In a manner not fully described, the Record of John has much of the text withheld by a corrupt religious organization. This organization is called abominable because it commits the sins the Book of Mormon defines as an abomination to the Lord (Polygamy, Scriptural Perversion, denying the mercies of Christ etc). The religious group does all this to get worldly wealth, gain and praise and while there have always been abominable churches on the earth this church is the most abominable above all others. It makes the corrupt priests that put Christ to death, look like beginners. The Record of John is carried by the Gentiles of America to the rest of the world where it causes mass conversions and gives the Great and Abominable Church sway over so many nations, using the plain and sweet testimony of John the Revelator. The Great and Abominable church aligns itself with corrupt civil government on a global scale. The Lord has foreseen all of this and has prepared other books to come forth that will undermine the Great and Abominable Church at its foundation, and that foundation IS the Record of John, and great will be the fall of this church. Perhaps now you see the reason the LDS Church Changed the word Foundation to Formation several times in Chapter 13. John the Revelator was told that he would again prophesy to many nations and kingdoms. He will do this using the little book he writes that was so sweet in his mouth but made him sick to his stomach to see the terrible ways it would be used at a future time. Revelations 10:8-11

  18. Polygamy is an abomination? I know this to be untrue.

    The fact that the LDS Church has fallen into at least some degree of wickedness, from top to bottom so to speak, should be clear to anyone prayerfully paying attention. But you are stretching scripture to incredible lengths here. If anything, the Church’s rejection of polygamy was a sign of its wickedness. And how is it that the American Revolutionary War didn’t fulfill the prophecy of war with Europe?

  19. Also, 1 Nephi 13 makes much, much more sense — either version, as the wording changes really make little difference despite your protests — if you simply assume that it’s chronological, instead of trying to fit it to your preconceptions.

  20. Polygamy IS an abomination. The Book of Mormon calls it a Whoredom repeatedly.

    Mosiah Chapter 11:1 And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons; therefore Noah began to reign in his stead; and he did not walk in the ways of his father. For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit WHOREDOMS and all manner of wickedness.

    Noah was both the leader of their Church and their King in civil matters. He acted in a dual capacity much the way Brigham Young did as Governor of the Utah territory and President of the Church.

    Mosiah 11:3 And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver,

    Noah is collecting taxes as a civil leader and he is appointing Priests in his Church leadership capacity.

    Mosiah 11:5 For he put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts.

    Mosiah 11:10-11 And he also caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls of the temple, of fine wood, and of copper, and of brass. And the seats which were set apart for the high priests, which were above all the other seats, he did ornament with pure gold; and he caused a breastwork to be built before them, that they might rest their bodies and their arms upon while they should speak lying and vain words to his people.

    Now that should sound like a familiar sight. Remember all the LDS leadership leaning on the Tabernacle Podium telling us all is well in Zion. How does this sound for some lying and vain words? “We have our calling an election made sure and Plural Marriage is a sacred part of the gospel.”

    There is not one single act of Polygamy in the Book of Mormon that is not condemned and shown as an example of gross wickedness. Don’t you find it interesting that the Lord chose to share with us these many bad examples of the Nephites when he knew our civilization would parallel theirs and he wanted to warn us of these false doctrines?


  21. RWW
    One more thing about King Noah and his ABOMINATIONS and DESIRES of his heart. The Book of Mormon tell us; “he spent his time in riotous living with his wives and his concubines; and so did also his priests spend their time with harlots.” Mosiah 11:14

    Here we see the Book of Mormon call a woman in Polygamy a HARLOT. It may interest you to note that the great and ABOMINABLE Church will have many HARLOTS and this is one of the DESIRES of this church.

    “And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw MANY HARLOTS. And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the HARLOTS, are the DESIRES of this great and ABOMINABLE church.” 1 Nephi 13: 7-8

    Looks like the early LDS leaders had the same DESIRES as King Noah and the Great and ABOMINABLE Church. Sure looks like some interesting parallels to me. Can you tell me any other scam or con game a false but Christian Professing Church can pull to have multiple sex partners, than to declare multiple wives a sacred principle?


  22. The “first edition of the Book of Mormon-ers” overlook an important verse in the Original Book of Mormon in their renunciation of polygamy:

    Book of Jacob, p. 127

    “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. Wherefore, thus saith the Lord: I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch, from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. Wherefore, I, the Lord God, will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: for there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none: For I, the Lord God, delighteth in the chastity of women. And whoredoms is an abomination before me: thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people: otherwise, they shall harken unto these things. For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people, in the land of Jerusalem; yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me, against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts; for they shall not lead away captive, the daughters of my people, because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction: for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto they of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.”

    BoM King Noah was not like Brigham Young, who maintained the first presidency of the Melchizedek priesthood. King Noah was like David or Solomon, who were kings but not possess a fullness of the priesthood (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith for David and Solomon’s lack of Melchizedek priesthood).

    There are times when man is too wicked to practice plural marriage, and there are times when it will be commanded of us. I think the above verses make it crystal clear that equality between the sexes is of utmost importance when the practice is commanded by the Lord.

    Much like I think a familiar spirit must possess sedevacantist Catholics, a similar spirit must possess those who are First Edition of the Book of Mormon-ers, for their arguments seem to be inspired from the same source, and all of the ones I have talked to overlook this most important verse in Jacob in their rejection of, and prophecies regarding, polygamy.

    Even when man abides a state in which polygamy is a whoredom, I have a witness that the practice of plural marriage is reserved for the resurrection and exaltation of those Saints commanded against plural marriage. Because of divorce and remarriage, my mother will have her 3 husbands, and my father will have his 3 wives. I know that in the heavens I will have through my mother 3 fathers and through my father 3 mothers to watch over me, even if I and they do not have them as such here on earth.

  23. CTC,

    I think you are right that “multiple wives” is an abomination!

    The thing is: The Mormon practice of plural marriage is not “multiple wives”, for “multiple wives” does not maintain the equality of the sexes.

    Mormons have always practiced “plural marriage”, which includes both polyandry and polygyny (with the exception that women have only one “for time and all eternity” sealing while they live, all their other sealings being “for time” until their deaths and the re-sealings by proxy of each husband and wife “for time and all eternity”).

    I have long said that “plural marriage” is one of the most misunderstood matters of Mormon doctrine.

    Also, regarding DESIRES OF THE HEART: There are the selfish desires of the heart, and there are the righteous desires of the heart. This is why we are given intellect, to discern between the two desires of our hearts. In Zion, where the pure-in-heart dwell, their hearts will abide only the righteous desires thereof!

  24. CTC, you have to be kidding me.

    The Book of Mormon calls it a Whoredom repeatedly.

    Mosiah Chapter 11:1 …For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit WHOREDOMS and all manner of wickedness.

    How can you sit there and deliberately lie about what this scripture says when any literate person can read it for himself? It says, without direct comment, that Noah had many wives and concubines. It then says that he caused his people to commit whoredoms. It does not even come close to calling polygamy a whoredom.

    One more thing about King Noah and his ABOMINATIONS and DESIRES of his heart. The Book of Mormon tell us; “he spent his time in riotous living with his wives and his concubines; and so did also his priests spend their time with harlots.” Mosiah 11:14

    Here we see the Book of Mormon call a woman in Polygamy a HARLOT.

    Again, you can’t be serious. This verse is explicitly calling one group of women “wives and concubines” and another group “harlots.”

    As Derek points out, the only part of the Book of Mormon that actually does teach against polygamy, in one setting, specifically allows for the practice of polygamy in others. Frankly, I am sickened by your misuse of scripture to justify your own preconceptions. Not only that, but your interpretations with respect to polygamy make little sense in light of the fact that the Church has done nothing but distance itself from the practice for the past century. And the idea that polygamy would help anyone “get worldly wealth, gain and praise” is simply laughable.

  25. At the risk of being called a liar again, let me call your attention to some Book of Mormon verses using the Official LDS Book of Mormon:

    But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for THEY SEEK TO EXCUSE THEMSELVES IN COMMITTING WHOREDOMS, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. Behold, David and Solomon truly had MANY WIVES and concubines, which thing was ABOMINABLE before me, saith the Lord. Jacob Chapter 2:23-24

    Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, ARE MORE RIGHTEOUS THAN YOU; FOR THEY HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN THE COMMANDMENT OF THE LORD, which was given unto our fathers–that they should have save it were ONE WIFE, and concubines they should have none, AND THERE SHOULD NOT BE WHOREDOMS COMMITTED AMONG THEM. Jacob 3:5

    From these verses we can see that God’s people were trying to justify or excuse themselves in committing “Whoredoms” an act that apparently involves the taking of more than one wife per man. Jacob gives a dissertation about the evils and wickedness of having multiple wives saying the Lord had led the Nephites to a far off land to insulate them from this corrupt practice and raise up a righteous group. Your only rebuttal is this one statement of Jacob’s.

    “For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people: otherwise, they shall harken unto these things.”

    While Jacob mentions that the Lord might raise up children as he sees fit, he does not elaborate as to how this will be done. However he did elaborate on denouncing the practice of having multiple wives as an abomination and a whoredom in Nephite times as well as in King David’s day. Jacob indicates clearly that monogamy is the norm and polygamy is outside the norm, yet the LDS church taught Polygamy as a “Sacred principle of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ”, something that runs counter to so many passages in the Book of Mormon we would need another file server on the internet to list them all. In my opinion this LDS doctrine is blasphemous. Of course this is not nearly so bad as how they deny the mercies of Christ and yoke people down with a yoke of Iron.

    Many Wives / Concubines / Harlots / Whoredoms / Abominations / Abominable: The Nephite Record uses these words in connections with each other repeatedly, as does the portion of the Jaredite Record in the Book of Mormon. Does anyone see the connection between these words?

    But this is really not a discussion about Polygamy. It is a discussion about perverting of the right ways of the Lord. Your arguments are not with me but the Holy Prophets. The Book of Mormon is what uses the words Many Wives / Concubines / Harlots / Whoredoms / Abominations / Abominable, in connection with each other and then says men should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

    Yes Brigham Young and Joseph Smith truly had many wives, which thing was an abomination before the Lord. Other Christian Churches do not have the Book of Mormon as you do and do not believe in it, yet they are more righteous than you because they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, that they should have save it were one wife and there should not be whoredoms committed among them. They have not sought to justify themselves in committing Whoredoms. How much greater is the condemnation for a person who professes belief in the Book of Mormon and then does not teach or do according to that which is written? D&C 84:54-57. You may argue there is a difference in Plural Marriage, Celestial Marriage, Polygamy or Polyandry but the bottom line is this; In plain English The Book of Mormon condemns anything other than a man having but one wife. It gives not one righteous example where God condoned plural marriage. Not One!

    Now a righteous person with a pure heart receives the Lord’s words of truth with gladness (2 Ne 28:28 ) but there are those who get angry because they are guilty of wicked desires and it cuts them to the very center (2Ne 16:2). But if your heart is still determined to contend with what is plainly written, after all these witnesses, I can only stand with Nephi when he stated:

    And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye–for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. Farewell until that great day shall come (2 Ne 33:11) And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day (2 Ne 33:14)


  26. Sorry the next to last paragraph above has a smiley face but was supposed to be a scriptural reference of 2 Nephi 28:28


  27. I fixed it.

  28. The examples you use, though, are like unto slavery. And I can see plainly the precious truth that women as property being horded by men is a sin and an abomination.

    But adultery and fornication and divorce are rampant in our society, even in our Church. I also see these modern behaviors as paralleling the behavior of “many wives, concubines, and harlots” as condemned in the Book of Mormon.

    I have not meant to call you a liar; I thought maybe you were overlooking that the Lord “will command [his] people” in this thing, if he so wills.

    Joseph Smith & Brigham Young’s wives truly had many husbands! There is not a single example of condemnation in the Book of Mormon for women having multiple husbands. The condemnation is for men having having many wives as property and sex slaves (riotous living) and procreative beasts of burden.

    So you have no testimony of Celestial Marriage, and you would judge my parents in their sins (with the spirit of accusation and contention). As for myself, I have found relief in these doctrines, as they have helped me to reconcile the struggles I’ve had to endure in this life, and they’ve helped me to come to love and respect my step-parents with a clear understanding of the future of my family in the eternities.

    Trust me: I am not offended to my core by what you are suggesting! I just think there is something “plain” that you, too, are overlooking or rationalizing away. You are right to warn us that “The Devil will feed you a thousand truths to get you to choke to death on one lie.” But you have got to understand that you are as much under his influence as we are.



  29. Derek,
    I’m not suggesting anything; I am flatly stating without hesitation or reservation that more that one wife per man is a whoredom and an abomination. It is gross wickedness, and even more heinous because it is perpetrated under the guise of a doctrine and teaching of Christ. I do not hold it against people who have family that were hoodwinked and fell for this false doctrine. But the Lord expects us to learn from mistakes and move on holding closely to the teaching of the “Holy Prophets” and by that I mean those Prophets who did not fall into wickedness (Mosiah 15;11 & 13). Only in this way can we live the life Christ asked of us. For he said; If ye love me then keep my commandments.

    The maxim of Christ’s law is found in the Ten Commandments. The commandment pertinent to the subject of Marriage is “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery.” Marriage is a union of one man and one woman. Anything outside that configuration (A man with more than one wife, A woman with more than one husband, Two men together, Two women together, People in a union with animals) or any other configuration or combination you can think up outside of one man with one woman together, is a whoredom and an abomination in the sight of the Lord.

    There are simply no great secrets to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. People are constantly looking for them and continue to look beyond the mark for a great mystery. What drives this need for a mystery is searching for an excuse to somehow uphold our wicked desires, thinking that if we get up higher or closer, that God will somehow justify us. We think that all these rules are just for the little people and not the insiders, where the real secrets are kept. Secret was never sacred, it was always just secret and the reason it was secret is that in the light of day it is abominable and the Lord has taught us that good is never evil and evil never good. Now the choice is yours to make but be ready to live with the consequences because you will be blessed according to the desires of your heart.


  30. Then I shall end my part in this dialogue by flatly stating without hesitation or reservation that you are missing out on the fact that the great and abominable church is already well-established, and that you along with “all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues” have been tricked into worshiping (warshipping) the Sun-god instead of the real God.

    People can contradict one another flatly and without hesitation, and the legitimacy of their beliefs can only be tested in time as material fact measures up against their statements. So we’ve stated our operating hypotheses, and now we can only look forward to the future to prove us wrong.

    The Lord will put bits in our mouths and hooks in our jaws, and he will us astray for his own purposes, and then it is for him to judge. The Lord will cause the prophets to err, and he will judge those who follow the prophets the same as he judges the prophets. In the last days there will be a great many false prophets, they will testify of Christ, but their teachings will pervert the right ways of the Lord.

    Remember, Babylon will hate Babylon, and she will devour her flesh with fire. (Much like we, Babylon the world, hate Iraq, Babylon the place, and devoured the flesh of her people in great massacres with the fire and smoke of white phosphorus. The operation took place in Fallujah, April & November 2004, a city dating to Babylonian times whose name means “division”; following the massacres, residents were allowed to return to the city in mid-December 2004 after undergoing biometric identification, provided they wear their ID cards at all times.)

  31. he will us astray == he will lead us astray

  32. Man ! Has this one drawn a roar from the crowed !!! There are so many good comments here, that mine at the very end of all this, may only be seen by #33.

    I never made it through High School and found myself caught up in a most unpopular War.

    What a time that was for leaning…It became a time of intraspection of the soul and the unvieling to myself, the nature of ALL problems with the World. And I found everyone of those problems were right inside the OTHER HALF of me. And what potentially lies within me also potentially lies in the World without me.

    Sounds like some sort of MONKISH MUMBO-JUMBO…

    Anyway…The Desease promulgated by the Whore of all the Earth always begins on the inside and infects everything around it.

    T he Lord is no fool when it comes to treating the cause as opposed to the outward symtoms. What good is it to douche ones self with a bucket of water if you are suffering from a case of SPONTAINEOUS COMBUSTION ?

    These outward symptoms of the Whore in Worldly institutions could never coexist in this World if the prevention of it’s developement were carried out.

    Denying acceptance of the Lords proscibed prevention of THAT… (Excepting and living the Law of Concecration), gives the Lord no choice but to errase the symptoms by attacking the Cancer itself from WITHIN.

    You GOTTS to wipe the PLATTER CLEAN before putting anything else on it that would make it contaminated for the next guy to eat from it.

    Knowing where the ROOT cause of the problem of Spiritual Whordom lies, is as simple as knowing the purpose for washing the dishes before you serve up the next meal.

    I sure like the way God explains stuff we need to know…. for High School dropouts like me.

  33. About this PLUARAL MARRIGE thing……How else would Heavenly Father provide a WAY for all worthy recipients of God Hood to make the team ? Unless of course He knew that an EVEN number of men and women would become those candidates ?

    Yea, I know He’s smart enough to do a little simple math, but I wonder if we are smart enough to go along with HIS game plan ?

    I don’t belive it is incumbent upon ALL by any stretch of the imagination. But I also believe it would be a crying shame to believe the vast number of NATURALLY inclined Spirits of God would have to sit out the GAME because someone felt it wasn’t right to have too many girls on one team…

    I have never had anything harsh to say until NOW !

    Who the heck would I be , to have the self imposed right to DENY anyone who wishes to PLAY the GAME… PLAY it, if God who is all knowing and all loving, says this is the WAY to make it WORK for ALL to be able to play ? It’s only SIMPLE MATH … It AIN”T that hard !

    To be someone who can’t concieve of entering that Covenant is fine, you won’t be asked to do anything you feel uncomfortable with or cannot understand. But to condem it, will be to your own CONDEMNATION for DENYING the RIGHT to others to PLAY the GAME in your HEART !

    What kind of GARBAGE is this for SAINTS to be arguing over ?

    If God wants it done when the Lord’s Servant arrives and if this is a bone that you can’t allow others to swallow, then all your GRAND ACCUMULATED KNOWLEDGE of the Gospel is for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!! And you will find yourself not only being not allowed to even sit on the bench…..You’re going to find the LONE AND DREARY World has SUDDENLY become MUCH DARKER.!!!

    Take this for what it is !!!! It is a WARNING to those of you who felel to CONDEM the Highest Principle of Heaven !!!

    I don’t think I find any more value to all the SUPER SUFISTICATED knowlege some of you THINK you have.

    BUBBA….Some of you are in for a rude AWAKENING if you don’t get these ideas out of your Hearts and Heads.

    You are assuming the right to END SOMEONE ELSES PROGRESSION if that is the only WAY that it can be OBTAINED.

    I’ll say this one more time for the ROCKET SCIENTISTS of Gospel PRINCIPLES.

    With all your vast understanding of the LOVE of God, you must realize that maybe it will be YOUR MOM, SISTER , OR DAUGHTER, who gets left behind according to YOUR WISDOM.

    Man, I used to think you Guys were Great until you HAVE PROVEN to me that too MUCH BRAINS stands in the WAY of COMMON SENSE and LOVING DECENCY.

    I’m not speaking of all of you…..Only the ones who wish to DENY MY MOM, SISTER, OR DAUGHTER, the RIGHT to Eternal INCREASE as the Lord has promised us.

    And if you in YOUR GRAND WISDOM, can show me that there is another viable WAYbesides EVENING out the PLAYERS, then despite your obviously HIGHER WORLDLY EDUCATION than mine, I’m DECIDEDLY BETTER at SIMPLE MATH than you are, and you could have spent that money you wasted on your education, and given it to me…I would have shared it with those who you are CONDEMING to be left BEHIND because YOU, (NOT GOD) FEEEEEEL you know a BETTER WAY !

    I’ll see you in HELL, because I’m sure I’ll be allowed to vist you IF I want too…BUT THAT AIN”T LIKELY !!!

  34. Whether the Ten Lost Tribes come from the center of the Earth, outer space , or TIMBUCKTOO…Who gives a flying brown thing ?

    Thier manner of coming and the place from where they come will become quite apparent when it happens and it dosen’t mean any of us give up a seat in Heaven if we get it wrong.

    It’s fun to talk of these and similar things when tyring our individual best to figure out what lies ahead. I think our Father intends for us to do just that.

    It’s EXCITING and a privilege to LIVE in these times!!!

    Somebody will be sent from the presence of God and help us tie up all the loose ENDS.

    But mister ANARCHY, to deny a PORTION (THE HIGHEST PORTION ), of Gods SIMPLE PLAN, is to do EXACTLY what you warned DEREK to beware of.

    The statement he made in the end of his 3rd to his last comment to you, was right on TARGET.

    He speaks the VOICE of the SPIRIT from his heart.

    His understanding of that Principle reflects the Lords COMPASSION and desire for all to benefit from the Gospel, not just those who have grown up in a cookie cutter World of ABSOLUTES.

    You have so much going for you in terms of reasoning power until that requires you to have empathy and compassion for those who need the Lords help to realize the Blessings of Eternal increase in thier lives, should this prove to be the only way for them (NOT ALL).

    Contending with the Doctrine of Plural Marrige is not the same as expressing a belief that the Ten Tribes are coming from outer space as opposed from the center of Mother Earth.

    Please think about what I am saying here. This is something HUGE you have committed yourself to.

    I don’t have any Plans in the near future for taking on another wife, but if the coming Lords Servant should say that this is what some are to do, then I believe He will be one we can REALLY TRUST on this one. The Scriptures sort of leave us with the impression that we better LISTEN to this particular TRUE Prophet or suffer the consequences.

    I’m a retired Marine and believe me, Im a little more FAMILAR with that concept than you are.

    Joseph is one of the GOOD guys and to have gotten something as BIG as this wrong, he would not be counted among the GOOD guys.

    Please don’t learn that lesson the HARD WAY…

    What do you think ?

    I’m sorry for the things I saud to you in my previous comment about seeing you in Hell. I wish I could take it back but I’m not good enough with a computer to know how to do that. I’m not the Worlds smatest guy, you can see that by the way I spell some words, but I do have enough common sense and understanding of the Love our Father and Brother have for us, to know that Plural Marrige is nothing moe than giving some of us the helping hand we may need to reach our Highest potential.

    I Love you Brother and am sorry for my emotional outburst.

    Please feel it in your Heart to at least except what others may need and require . It dosen’t mean it’s something you will need but rest assured some of us WILL need it.

    Please don’t deny anothers righteous needs, so that ALL that you righteously desire, may in turn be given to you also.

  35. Today I got to thinking about CTC’s comments above concerning 1 Nephi 13 having a dual fulfillment, a shadow and then later a literal fulfillment. Now, there were two things that struck me. The first I won’t get into, but the second I’ll share here. In 1 Nephi 14–which is an extension of the same prophecy spoken in 1 Nephi 13, and which, in my understanding, has not, yet, been fulfilled, for it begins with the numbering of the Gentiles among the seed of Lehi–the angel says to Nephi, concerning the apostle John,

    “he shall…write…many things which have been…and…the things which he shall write…are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew…

    If the Bible contains the words that John was supposed to write, as prophesied by this angel, then it would contain these words of John that contained “many thing which have been,” meaning things which happened prior to this vision of Nephi. But I don’t think we have any record of John’s writings in the Bible covering past history, from before the time of Nephi, except for that very brief chapter in Revelations about the seven seals. That hardly qualifies as “many things.” This would indicate that the Bible’s appearance is a shadow fulfillment of the prophecy of this angel, and not the literal fulfillment. In other words, that the book which proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew is not the Bible we currently have, but a future record, to be revealed by John.

    So, I decided to take a second look at 1 Nephi 13 (and also 14), and instead of putting it in the time frame we normally put it, I decided to read it as if it contained a dual fulfillment, with a literal fulfillment at some future time. What I found is that I came to many of the same conclusions (but not all) of CTC, when I did this.

    There are a few possible evidences that the writings of John in our Bible are not the writings of John in the book which proceeded out of the Jew. For example, Nephi was forbidden to write the rest of his vision. Why? Because that was John’s commission. Yet, that only makes sense if it was not time for John’s writings to come forth. In other words, if the words we already had of John, in the Bible, were the same things that Nephi saw, then having him write the same words doesn’t do any harm, whatsoever. It just becomes a second witness. However, if the words of John was something different than what is in our Bible, and which needed to come forward at a particular time in the future, then it makes sense that Nephi was stopped from uttering the rest of the vision.

    According to other scriptures, John is supposed to be present among us, at some point, prophesying before nations again, and he will receive a mission, symbolized by him eating a little book. The text that Nephi wrote about the book that proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew actually makes sense if we say that that singular Jew will be John.

    I won’t break this whole thing down, but it means, if true, that conditions among men must drastically change for this stuff to be fulfilled a second (or literal) time. It also means that there will be more records brought forth, before the Lord comes, than we currently assume. Here is a brief list, based on this “dual fulfillment” reading:

    The full canon of scriptures, had among the primitive church, revealed by John the apostle, containing the testimony of all 12 primitive apostles, as well as whatever other inspired writings they had, plus scriptures had prior to Christ. This would be the book that proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew (John) and would correspond to the prophecy of Joseph about what “the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write.” In other words, currently we interpret that as referring to the Bible, but it may, in fact, have a secondary (primary or literal) fulfillment in John restoring these Jewish scriptures, for He is a Jewish Elias, and will be sent to restore all things (pertaining to the Jews.)

    This record of John, though, is supposed to go through the great and abominable church, so there will be two versions of this record sent out among the Gentiles, one pure and one perverted or corrupt.

    Then the other scriptures must be the full Nephite records, the plates of brass (the stick of Ephraim), the Jaredite records, the full canon of scriptures given to the Gentiles, etc. In other words, as crazy as it sounds, by reading this one chapter as a dual fulfillment, we get a host of records, or a fulness of records, from the various tribes of Israel and also that given to the Gentile nations, revealed by a multiplicity of restorers and all brought into one, before the Lord’s advent.

    The starting record, though, is that of John, and the text indicates a singular author. It will proceed from the mouth of a (singular) Jew and the angel also says,

    Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God. And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles…

    To my prophetic ears, “by the hand” indicates a singular author, meaning one man restoring scripture that was written by multiple people (the twelve apostles.)

    But there are still problems with this interpretation, because it requires a drastic change in conditions. For example, the parts about going forth upon the many waters indicate travel by boat. Who, nowadays, travels by boat, except when taking cruises? The only way this condition could come to pass is if air travel must, of necessity, at some point in the future, go the way of the dinosaurs, because of, say, electromagnetic or other atmospheric conditions due to a re-configuration of the planets, etc. Now, before some one says that that’s crazy, we must realize that in our own Doctrine and Covenants it prophesies of only the righteous being able to travel upon the waters, because the waters were cursed by John. That doesn’t make sense unless air travel will no longer be possible.

    Anyway, I won’t get into this whole thing, but it opens up some vistas that may have not been considered by most people.

    P.S. Merry Christmas.

  36. just running out of petroleum would lead to the advent of sailing again if we couldn’t find some other fuel for our airplanes. I was reading some history about quetzal-coatl in which he commanded the burying of books, that they should not be unburied again until the warring strangers cycle is completed

    “Carry your great books into the jungles. Place your histories deeply in caverns where none of these men can find them. Nor do you bring them back to the sunlight until the War-Cycle is over. For these bearded strangers are the children of War. They speak my precepts, but their ears do not listen. They have but one love and that is for weapons. Ever more horrible are these weapons, until they reach for the one which is ultimate. Should they use that, there will be no forgiveness in that vale where there is no turning. Using such a weapon to make man over, is reaching into the heavens for the Godhead. These things are not for man’s decision, nor should man presume to think for all things, and thus mock the Almighty. Woe to those who do not listen! There are lamps beyond that which you are burning; roads beyond this which you are treading; worlds beyond the one you are seeing. Be humble before the might of the Great Hand which guides the stars within their places. There are many lodges within my Father’s Kingdom for it is more vast than time, and more eternal.

    “Keep hidden your books, my children, all during the Cycle of Warring Strangers. The day will come when they will be precious.


    In Book X of his History, the 16th century chronicler Fray Bernardino de Sahagun described the departure of the “wise men” who had been the attendant priests of Kate-Zahl at Teotihuacan:

    “The wise men remained not long; soon they went. Once again, they embarked and carried off the writing, the books, the paintings; they carried away all the crafts, the castings of metals. And when they departed, they summoned all those they left behind. They said to them: “Our lord, the protector of all, the wind, the night, saith you shall remain. We go leaving you here. Our lord goeth bequesting you this land; it is your merit, your lot. Our lord, the master of all, goeth still farther, and we go with him. Whither the lord, the night, the wind, our lord, the master of all, goeth, we go accompanying him. He goeth, he goeth back, but he will come, he will come to do his duty, he will come to acknowledge you. When the world is become oppressed, when it is the end of the world, at the time of its ending, he will come to bring it to an end. But you shall dwell here; you shall stand guard here…”


    Mormon 4:13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.

    4 Nephi:48 And it came to pass that when three hundred and twenty years had passed away, Ammaron, being constrained by the Holy Ghost, did hide up the records which were sacred—yea, even all the sacred records which had been handed down from generation to generation, which were sacred—even until the three hundred and twentieth year from the coming of Christ.

    i believe that there are many many old and sacred records around the world that will come forth in the future, that will make the dead sea scrolls pale in comparison, Ammaron was but one of many men constrained by the spirit

  37. I hear the comments about the great and abominable church of the devil and the church of the lamb and there are those who would like to believe that the first is being referred to as a religion and the latter are those true followers of the Lord. It makes sense to me that if the latter is a group of true followers of the lamb (Jesus Christ) then the first would be the followers of the devil, wherever they are and in whatever positions they are in all around the world.

  38. the church of the devil is constantly trying to come out of the wilderness like the church of Christ. Just as christ’s church are those who follow him satan’s church are those who follow him, those who exploit and seek advantage over others, “murder to get gain” and have sex with whoever they want. you follow Christ long enough and his angels come and tell you how to establish his church, Satan does the same for his devotees.

  39. Islam now is changing the planet- calling itself Peace,Love & of all things The Green Horse of Sciences.

    Since Rev.17- Babylon Has Become The Cage Of Demons &
    End Time the world will follow after deceiving Spirits. The Balaam Pagan Symbols- Of Saudi Arabia’s Crescent Moon are Spreading World Wide-
    The Trap// ” it comes upon all those inhabitants of the world”
    But we shall stand in holy places ( in this place)

    An Atheist Can Not Understand The Spirit of The Prince of This World-those who oppose (The Word Of God) Rev.19
    So the false doctrine & governments are mixing. Nephi Mormon 8
    (The devil hath great hold on the children of men.) It will come.

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