LDS Anarchist
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The following is my current understanding of the baptism of fire.
One baptism in three parts
The gospel of Jesus Christ has one, tripartite baptism consisting of the baptism of water, the baptism of fire and the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The purpose of baptism is to witness that there exists a covenant between God and the man being baptized. Unless all three witnesses have occurred, the covenant between him and God is not binding.
The doctrine of re-baptism applies equally to all three
Anyone who enters into an agreement with another is free to witness or affirm the fact of the agreement by attestation for as many times as desired. There is no law of man or God against this. In fact, under the law of God, we are to “stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places” that we may be in, even until death. So, the principle of witnessing and re-witnessing is a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The manner in which man witnesses of his covenant to serve God is through water baptism. This means that in order to re-witness his covenant, he must be re-baptized. Therefore, he may receive the baptism of water whenever and as many times as he desires and must, per his covenant, be ever ready to be re-baptized at all times and in all places, to re-attest of the validity of his covenant. This is the doctrine or principle of re-baptism and it applies equally to both water, fire and Holy Ghost baptisms.
Order: fire and Spirit, then water, then fire and Spirit, etc.
Re-baptism being a principle of the gospel, the order in which these baptisms are received is not all that important. The only necessary thing is that each one is received, for these are really three parts of one baptism. Nevertheless, the scriptural, ideal order is first the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost (see D&C 20: 37), followed by the baptism of water, followed by another baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and thereafter, any part may be repeated multiple times throughout one’s life.
Another thing that the gospel states is that after a baptism of water, the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost is supposed to follow on its heels, either right after coming out of the water, or right after confirmation by the laying on of hands.
To demonstrate these principles, Joseph Smith received a baptism of fire during the First Vision, then a baptism of fire during each of Moroni’s visits and during the visit of John the Baptist, then a water baptism by the hand of Oliver Cowdery, followed by a baptism of the Holy Ghost after he came out of the water. Later he received other baptisms of fire with the visits of Peter, James, John, Moses, Elijah, etc. He also received another water baptism after the church was legally organized, etc.
Simultaneity
A baptism of fire is always accompanied with a baptism of the Holy Ghost, but a person may be baptized with the Holy Ghost without an accompanying baptism of fire. This is why the baptism of fire is always called the baptism (singular) of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and not the baptisms (plural) of fire and of the Holy Ghost. These two parts of the tripartite baptism occur simultaneously as a single baptismal event whenever there is a baptism of fire.
Jesus alone performs the baptism of fire
Unlike the baptism of water, which can be performed by the hand of a mortal man under priesthood power and authority, the baptism of fire is reserved for Deity alone to accomplish and is based upon the state of a man’s heart and his faith in Him. (See 3 Ne. 12: 1-2; 3 Ne. 9: 20; Matt. 3: 11; Luke 3: 16; JST Mark 1: 6; JST John 1: 28.)
Confirmation is not the baptism of fire
The scriptures say that elders are “to confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying of of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.” This is the ordinance of confirmation. Laying hands on someone’s head for the baptism of fire does not baptize anyone with fire. Only the Lord can do that.
When the scriptures say that this ordinance is “for” the baptism of fire, it is using that word “for” to mean “indicating the end with reference to which anything is, acts, serves or is done.” Specifically, the word “for” in that sentence means “as a preparation for” or “with the object of.” So, elders lay hands as a preparation for the baptism of fire, or they lay hands with the object of the baptism of fire.
The ordinance of confirmation, then, is a preparatory ordinance, which precedes an actual baptism of fire. This ordinance is called confirmation because it is intended to confirm the believers’ faith, both that of the one being confirmed and that of those doing the confirming. This is because true priesthood is “inseparably connected with the powers of heaven,” so when true priesthood is exercised as an ordinance of the gospel, there will be a corresponding manifestation of heavenly power. So, after the ordinance of confirmation, there is supposed to be a baptism of fire that occurs, showing that the covenant of the newly baptized person is accepted of God, as well as the priesthood of the one who is doing the confirming.
Binding and accepted covenants
The baptism of fire serves to witness to the new member, to the priesthood holder(s) confirming, and to the church that is present, that the covenant that the man has entered into with his God, witnessed by his water baptism, is accepted by God and is now in force. In other words, that it is binding, both upon the man and his God.
To put another way, water baptism is man’s way of witnessing to God that he has entered into a covenant to serve Him, whereas fire baptism is God’s way of witnessing to man that He has accepted that covenantal relationship.
(Jesus said, “Whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record (witness) of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.” See 3 Ne. 11: 35.)
Plasma is the medium
To serve as a witness to all these people, the baptism of fire must be a visual sign. The medium used is not the fire of a gas stove or match, but discharging plasma in appearance as fire. Depending upon where one is located in relation to the plasma display, it may look like the flame of fire, like a palpable or living light, like lightning, or just as immense glory or brightness.
Specifically, the baptism of fire consists of twin plasma filaments, rapidly rotating around a central axis, creating a plasma tube or sheath, or plasma column, in other words, a cylindrical shape around the person being baptized. When viewed from the outside, it appears to be “a pillar of fire.” When viewed from within the tube, the fire aspects may or may not be discerned, but its bright light or glory is apparent. Thus we have the various accounts of Joseph Smith’s First Vision, which was a baptism of fire, using the words “fire,” “flame,” “light,” “brightness” and “glory” to describe the discharging plasma he was witnessing.
Sometimes the twin filaments themselves can be discerned, and so we get a description of “cloven tongues of fire,” meaning twin tongues (or filaments) of plasma flame. Other descriptions are of fire “encircling” the persons being baptized, showing that the filaments rotate around the person.
All of these scriptural accounts are describing the same plasma manifestation observed from different spatial perspectives, and so accounts vary. But even with everything before a person, sometimes details can still be missed, as in 1 Ne. 15: 27.
Other aspects
Fire baptism is by complete, or cellular, immersion. Plasma both surrounds and enters the man, so that he becomes “filled with fire.” The fire can be seen and felt. To the one immersed in it, it initially feels like he is burning to death, in an incomprehensibly complete and rapid manner, as every part of the body seems to have caught on fire. Great fear instantly comes upon the man as he fully believes he is about to die. But in the next instant his mind realizes that death has not occurred, that there is no pain and that there is no apparent cellular damage or harm. The fear leaves just as suddenly as it comes, only to be replaced with a feeling of awe and gratitude as the mind realizes that this same destroying fire, which should have instantly atomized the body, is somehow keeping the body protected from its own destructive power.
The divine plasma has the effect of cleansing the heart of man, purifying it of all dross (sinful desires), so that he no longer desires to sin, but instead abhors it. In this swept clean condition, the Holy Ghost then unexpectedly and suddenly enters the man and causes the individual bits of his soul to shout for joy, because of the presence of Deity.
Fire baptism allows other heavenly manifestations to occur
The baptism of fire purifies a person’s heart and Jesus said that all the pure in heart shall see God. So, whenever a person receives a baptism of fire, chances are real good that they will also see either an angel, vision or God Himself. At the very least some revelation or prophecy will occur along with the baptism of fire, or some other manifestation of one of the gifts of the Spirit.
Fire remits sin
Whenever a person receives a baptism of fire, his sins are automatically remitted. In other words, he becomes justified, or guiltless, before the Lord. Nephi said, “For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.”
Fire brings forth a new tongue
Nephi also said that when a man receives the baptism of fire he then can speak with a new tongue, even the tongue of angels, and that “angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.”
There are only two, definitive, scriptural examples
There are plenty of scriptural verses that mention the doctrine of baptism of fire, but there are only two accounts in our current standard works in which it is definitively stated that actual baptisms of fire occurred. Of those two accounts, only one applies to us in the latter days. They are:
Adam’s baptism of fire
After Adam was baptized by the Spirit of the Lord, as recorded in Moses 6: 64-68, he heard a voice saying, “Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost.” Nevertheless, there is no mention of any manifestation of fire in the account. Although quite interesting, this experience was, apparently, Adam specific and is not the template for the baptism of fire among the modern masses.
The Lamanites’ baptism of fire
When the Nephite missionaries Nephi and Lehi preached among the Lamanites and were imprisoned, about 300 souls received a baptism of fire, as recorded in Hel. 5: 20-49. This is the scriptural template of a baptism of fire for all mankind. We know this because the voice of Jesus Christ said so:
And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not. (3 Ne. 9: 20)
So, the Lord categorically states in the above scripture that the experience of the 300 souls was a baptism of fire. Additionally, He states that all baptisms of fire that He performs will be “even as the Lamanites… were baptized with fire.” The Lamanites’ baptism of fire, then, is the standard, the rule, and NOT the exception. It is the event that the Lord points to for us to determine whether a baptism of fire has occurred.
(The word “even” in the phrase “even as the Lamanites” means “in or to such (indicated) degree or kind.”)
What the baptism of fire consists of
Based upon the Lamanites’ experience, there are six characteristics of any baptism of fire. They are:
1. Fire encircling an individual, forming a cylindrical shape, such as a column or “pillar of fire” or plasma tube. This would be twin Birkeland currents (plasma cables or filaments) rotating rapidly around a central axis, in appearance like a fire tornado. This is the visual sign to all those witnessing the baptism.
2. The presence and ministration of angels.
3. Justification, meaning a remission of sins.
4. Purification, by fire entering the heart.
5. Sanctification, by becoming filled with (baptized in) the Holy Ghost.
6. Speaking with a new tongue (the tongue of angels, meaning speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost.)
Two more scriptural examples
Using the six characteristics above, we find two more scriptural examples of baptisms of fire which exactly match that of the Lamanites, although the text does not specifically say that they were fire baptisms. They are:
The Nephite little children’s baptism of fire
Jesus baptized little children with fire, as recorded in 3 Ne. 17: 21-25 and as witnessed by 2500 people. These children were encircled by fire, had angels minister to them and spoke in new tongues (see 3 Ne. 26: 14, 16.) Also, we know that they were justified, purified and sanctified, for they were little children and all little children are alive in Christ.
The 12 disciples’ baptism of fire
The fire baptism of these men is recorded in 3 Ne. 19: 11-15. They were encircled about by fire, filled with fire, had angels minister to them and prayed by the power of the Holy Ghost. From the text it is clear that they were justified, purified and sanctified.
Other intimated baptisms of fire
Joseph Smith’s baptisms of fire
As mentioned above, each of Joseph’s angelic ministrations was attended by a baptism of fire (plasma), including the First Vision.
For example, one First Vision account says, “A pillar of fire appeared above my head; which presently rested down upon me, and filled me with un-speakable joy. A personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame, which was spread all around and yet nothing consumed…I saw many angels in this vision.”
Another First Vision account says, “while in [the] attitude of calling upon the Lord [in the 16th* year of my age] a pillar of {fire} lightabove the brightness of the Sun at noon day come down fromabove and rested upon me and I was filld with the Spirit of God”. In this account Joseph couldn’t decide whether what he saw was fire or light. He finally decided on light and crossed out fire. The reason for his confusion was that he was witnessing discharging plasma.
I believe that it is reasonable to conclude that the plasma nature of the angel Moroni’s visit (see The plasma aspects of the First Vision and Moroni’s visit) was typical of all angelic ministrations to Joseph, and thus all such events in his life were likely baptisms of fire.
Moses’ vision of God
In Moses chapter 1 it says that “the glory of God was upon Moses.” That sounds to me like a plasma event and that he received a baptism of fire.
Lehi’s pillar of fire
1 Ne. 1: 6 mentions Lehi seeing a pillar of fire. It is obviously a super-duper abridgment of all that occurred, but it sounds like a baptism of fire.
Nephi’s visit from the Lord
Nephi mentions in 1 Ne. 2: 16 that he was visited by the Lord. He doesn’t elaborate but my guess is that this was Nephi’s first baptism of fire. Jesus states in 3 Ne. 11: 35 that when the Father visits people, He visits them with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
Cloven tongues on day of Pentecost
As recorded in Acts chapter 2, there appeared “cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.” They were filled with the Spirit, spoke other tongues and spoke by the power of the Holy Ghost. It’s not an exact match of the Lamanite experience (angels are missing), but pretty darn close.
Gentile cloven tongues
In Acts 11: 15 we read Peter’s words about how the Gentiles also received the Holy Ghost. He said, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.” That, to me, seems to be saying that the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles in the same way that the Holy Ghost fell on the Jews, namely, with accompanying manifestation of cloven tongues like as of fire. This could explain the astonishment of the Jews who witnessed the manifestation of tongues among the Gentiles. (See Acts 10: 44-47.)
Downgrading the baptism of fire
Now, when you compare the scriptural accounts of the baptism of fire to our modern, LDS definitions, it becomes obvious that we have downgraded the sudden, rapid changes effectuated by the marvelous, visual, power displays of the real deal to something gradual, drawn out, imperceptible and nondescript. For example:
While one definition of this expression (the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost) refers to a cleansing by the Holy Spirit as if by fire, still the scriptures and the writings of the prophets indicate there is something more.
The new convert who has accepted the gift of the Holy Ghost with the right spirit will experience not only a cleansing but a feeling that will give him a new heart and make of him a new person. Sometimes this is immediate, and sometimes it happens over a period of time.
…
The scriptures, and even our church history, record miraculous instances when visible flames encircled the humble followers of Christ—literal manifestations of fire and the Holy Ghost—but more often this fire works quietly and unseen in the hearts of those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
…
The witness, the change, the cleansing that comes gradually is no less powerful to the person with the right heart, and he or she is impelled to action whether the experience was a sudden, miraculous manifestation or the quiet workings of the Spirit.
(Fire and the Holy Ghost, Loren C. Dunn, Ensign, June 1995)
We have taken away the majesty of the Father’s witness and replaced it with something that goes entirely against nature. Nature is cyclic, cycling between periods of rest and periods of activity. All things work on this principle, including spiritual things. Baptism (all three parts) are designed to be moments of spiritual intensity. You cannot perform a baptism of water over a period of time, or gradually, quietly and unseen. No, you are outside of the water (which can be visually discerned), then you are immersed, and then you come out of the water. There is nothing gradual about it. A single water baptism cannot be performed over days and years. In like manner, the baptism of fire is a punctuated, spiritually intense event.
No one’s spirituality is designed to grow gradually. Gradual spiritual growth is the same as no spiritual growth. There is no such animal as gradual spiritual growth. You either have intense spiritual experiences from time to time or you are spiritually dying. This is why we are commanded to come together often, to intensify the Spirit so as to be capable of growing spiritually.
Joseph Smith’s life was meant to be an example to us. He had multiple, very intense spiritual experiences. It began with a baptism of fire, it continued with more baptisms of fire and it ended in a volley of gun fire. John Taylor said that Joseph lived for glory, died for glory and glory is his eternal reward. Glory = plasma = the baptism of fire. Joseph did, indeed, live for those fire baptism experiences. He had a lot of them, he saw a lot of angels and who knows how many visions, and he wanted to have more of the same. And he tried ceaselessly to get the saints to experience what he was experiencing. So did Moses and all true prophets.
You are either immersed in plasma or you are not. You are either in an intensity phase or in a rest phase of the cycle. There is no such thing as non-cyclic gradualness. If you think you are growing spiritually for the past ten years without any intense spiritual experiences, you are kidding yourself. It means that you have been in a spiritual rest phase of the cycle during this time. No one can remain at spiritual rest for any extended period of time before spirituality begins to decay. It is an impossibility. So, the LDS concept of a gradual, life-long, imperceptible baptism of fire is patently false and leads to spiritual death.
Everyone will receive a baptism of fire
It is not a question of if, but when and how. If a man humbles himself before the Lord and enters into a covenant to serve Him, he’ll receive a baptism of fire in this life, one that will purify and justify him. But there are other baptisms of fire that can be received. For example, one is the baptism of fire that the earth and all those that do wickedly upon her will receive at the Second Coming. Another is the baptism of fire that occurs when the sons of perdition are immersed in the lake of fire and brimstone. One way or another, we are all eventually going to have to go through some type of baptismal fire.
And they knew it not
In closing, let me address one other thing. Jesus said that the Lamanites “were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.” Some have taken that to mean that the Lamanites experienced a change upon their hearts which they did not perceive, because it happened gradually, over time. In other words, that the Lord meant that there was no great manifestation during the Lamanites’ fire and Holy Ghost baptism. And also that the Lord was not referring to the 300 Lamanites who were in prison with Nephi and Lehi, but was referring instead to other Lamanite converts.
This is an incorrect interpretation.
The real meaning of the Lord’s words is that the Lamanites (the 300 souls in that prison) had a magnificent, visual baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, but did not know what it was. That is all that the Lord meant by what He said.
Any time someone experiences a baptism of fire without first being taught about it, they go through the experience without knowing what it is. Joseph’s First Vision fire baptism was performed on him while he was still a boy totally ignorant of such a thing as a baptism of fire. In my own life, I remember that the first time that I had a baptism of fire (prior to my water baptism) I was blown away and didn’t know what it was. The missionaries that had taught me the gospel had not explained this doctrine, so it came as a complete surprise to me and it was only years later, as I studied and learned more of the gospel on my own, that I was able to determine what the hell it was. Prior to that time, it was always an anomaly to me and when talking to others about the various spiritual experiences I had had over the years, I would always set it apart by saying something like, “The second time the Holy Ghost manifested itself to me was quite different than the other times. It was, well, a really big manifestation with a lot of power and I thought I was going to die, or I did die and came back to life. I’m not really sure what happened. All I know is I was consumed in fire but somehow survived unharmed.” Such were my ignorant descriptions. But of course it was a different manifestation than the others. It was a baptism of fire, for crying out loud! But I knew it not.
And in the same manner, neither did the Lamanites.
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Is this not firm evidence that the state of the current church of God is [though still true] a dead church?
I’ve seen dozens of confirmations in church meetings and none of them manifested a plasma column in discharge — nor have I ever heard of such a manifestation occurring among other LDS.
It is not a question of if, but when and how. If a man humbles himself before the Lord and enters into a covenant to serve Him, he’ll receive a baptism of fire in this life, one that will purify and justify him.
This is very encouraging… however, like Justin, I have never heard of such a manifestation occurring among other LDS. So how do you explain this? Don’t you think there are people (LDS) who are trying their best to humble themselves and enter into a covenant to serve him? That there are those of us who are trying our dangdest to be purified and justified? Why is this not more common?
Justin asked, Is this not firm evidence that the state of the current church of God is [though still true] a dead church?
D&C 22 and 2 Ne. 25: 25 come to mind.
The strait gate is repentance, baptism of water, baptism of fire and baptism of the Holy Ghost, according to 2 Ne. 31: 17-18. No one can enter that gate by the law of Moses, nor by other dead works. The law of Moses itself is a dead work, per the above scriptures. Nephi said they were “made alive in Christ” because of their faith. Little children are alive in Christ, and thus are justified, sanctified and purified, therefore Nephi was referring to the same state as little children.
The church is under condemnation (an unjustified state) per D&C 84: 54-58, therefore, it cannot be “alive in Christ.” The works of the Father (the baptism of fire, the gifts of the Spirit) are not manifest in the church. At one time in its early history there were such manifestations, but no longer. There is no doubt in my mind, then, that the church is spiritually dead.
Nevertheless, the Lord doesn’t bless you according to the state of the church you belong to, just the state of your heart. What I received from the Lord came to me when I was not a member of the church. After my water baptism and confirmation, there was no firey manifestation that confirmed anything to me. So, my fire experience came apart from the church. It didn’t come to me because I asked or prayed for it, but because of the state of my heart at that time, which was pure and untainted by the lowered standards of the church. I desired the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit, as demonstrated by the New Testament saints, and had great desires to follow God and serve Him and my heart was pure and right before him. Unbeknownst to me, my heart had already covenanted with God without me even knowing what a covenant was. It was that covenant, made in heart purity, that caused the fire and Spirit to come upon me, unexpectedly. It was the Lord’s way of telling me my covenant was accepted.
Once I was baptized, I learned what we all learn: gradual sanctification over many years of church service, the scriptural accounts are marvelous exceptions, not the rule, etc. My previous standards, which were based solely upon what I read from the Bible, were immediately lowered to those of the church members around me. What the leadership taught me ended up hardening my heart so that I lost faith, instead of gaining it. This same thing has happened, I believe, and is still happening, on a church-wide scale. The Spirit touches people’s heart when they hear the gospel message, then they enter the church and their hearts become hard or harder. The manifestations reduce in intensity and frequency and sometimes altogether stop. The baptism of fire, which is directly related to the condition of the heart, never has a chance to occur once they enter the church because they begin to take pride in being members of the only true church.
We are constantly told that we are the chosen people of the Lord, blessed of Him, the only ones who have a chance at exaltation. All that is needed is to attend meetings, pay tithing, perform callings, follow the prophet, brethren and other leaders, etc., and we will be saved. Such teachings cannot lead to anything but a hard-hearted, exceedingly prideful people who will be damned to hell once they die. The leadership needs to preach repentance to the people, which they never do. We are never told to repent of our hard hearts. Yet, this is the only thing that will cause Jesus to start baptizing latter-day saints with fire again.
BiV wrote,
My understanding is that it has nothing to do with trying our best. Our best is never good enough anyway. We shouldn’t try our best to humble ourselves before the Lord, we should just be humble before Him. We shouldn’t try to be purified and justified before Him, because that assumes we have power to be purified and justified. We don’t. No flesh is justified before Him, only in and through the Holy Messiah.
I’ll use me as an example and draw from my own experience. I never prayed to God at all and yet received a baptism of fire. It had nothing to do with what I did or did not do. It was merely a condition of my heart and my desires. I remember the days leading up to that event in my life and I remember how obsessed I was with the things of God. It wasn’t a theological obsession or an intellectual exercise, but a deep soul-yearning for spirituality and communion with God that I had every waking moment for several months prior. I was pondering continually on the things of God, non-stop. My heart was completely and totally turned towards Him. I believed the Bible every whit (even the corrupt parts, in my ignorance, lol.) There was no doubt in my heart and I did not doubt God in the least. I was seeking an answer to some questions I had about God but did not look for those answers in any religion or church. After months of soul-searching, some Mormon missionaries knocked on my door and I heard the First Vision story and believed it all, without a single doubt, for it answered the questions I had been asking in my heart. Shortly thereafter, I had that fire experience, but without having said a single prayer to God. Nevertheless, the yearnings in my heart towards God were enough for Him to respond. They were like prayers to Him and I guess I had been continually praying to him constantly for months without even knowing that that is what I had been doing.
Now, when I compare the state I was in for those months prior to my second experience with the Holy Ghost (and first experience with fire), with the state I was in afterward upon joining the church, it was black and white. I became caught up in the dogma of religion and church. Instead of seeking communion with God, as I did before, church became an intermediary. My obsession with God was replaced with an obsession with church and leadership (prophets). In other words, my soft, pliant heart that got such a good start with a baptism of fire before my baptism, became hardened the more church indoctrination that I got. It wasn’t until three or so years after my baptism that I realized what dire straits I was in, spiritually speaking, from where I was when I first started. I could see that my heart was hard, but even then, I didn’t know how it had come to pass. Many years later I began to see that there were things about church that had adverse effects upon my spirituality and I began to make corrections to the theology that had been fed into my brain for years by the church leaders. Today, having had much more experience in the things of the Spirit over many years, I can see that church was the chief problem. I had let church replace God.
So, to answer your questions, I think that my case is not particularly unique. I think everyone starts out this way, more or less, and then becomes corrupted by church. Church becomes people’s god, not God Himself. The desire to commune with God is replaced with the desire to be righteous and worthy and an upstanding member.
I am certain that there are people among the LDS who are trying to repent, who are trying to commune with God and humble themselves before Him, in spite of church. But, having gone through some small experience (about nine months) in which I lived the very state that actually causes the baptism of fire to come upon a person, even without actively seeking it out, I can say that it is my opinion that we all are still going about it all wrong.
The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are faith, repentance and baptism, right? When we think of the baptism of water, we think of baptism by immersion, but there is another baptism of water that should precede it: the baptism of tears. Tears of sorrow for one’s own sins is what brings on a remission of sins and the second baptism (of fire). Without such tears, all effort is in vain. I, personally, do not see such sorrow among the LDS, nor fear nor trembling. All I see is vanity and pride that they are within the covenant and guided by a prophet. We weep, indeed, but not for sin. When we are “obeying all the commandments” and “in good standing” and have prominent callings, we feel safe and secure, despite no gifts being manifest in our lives. Even though we cannot pray to God and receive a revelation, as Joseph did, we take comfort that it doesn’t matter, for we have prophets and apostles and other leaders who will receive messages from God for us. We are a comfortable lot, secure in our possessions and theology and I doubt that there is a single one of us that communes with God, for if that were to truly happen, we’d probably excommunicate him!
I had always thought, till now, that my case was particularly unique, but I now know that perhaps it was not. I could have written Anarchist’s response to BiV, and it would have looked exactly the same. I, too, had received a baptism of fire before I had ever received even one missionary discussion, but never knew it. I can remember the experience quite clearly (to date the greatest experience of my life), and it was gifted to me in the same manner as described by Anarchist, on condition of my goofy-assed, fourteen year old heart being turned completely toward God.
It was instant, immediate, came with power, and like stated above, came without a single prayer. In that same moment I hunted down two missionaries on the spot (not too hard to do, I was walking around the grounds of the Washington, D.C. Temple at the time) and demanded baptism that day. That’s when I learned that I first had to “take the discussions” and “receive a testimony” of certain things, etc., etc., according to the approved program. OK, whatever, have it your way, if that makes you happy. So I went through all the motions, and like a good little soldier (I was raised in a military home) dutifully took my heart from God and handed it over to religion for further development. Thirty years, one mission and one eternal marriage later, I am still wondering how I let that happen. Not one experience–not ONE–has ever been able to add to, or even match that experience, and I’m not surprised why, and I thank God for being able to have experienced it at least once in my life.
May I add another witness to LDSA and Chuck. The baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is the real deal. My story is similar but I was driven to my knees in prayer when I was blessed with the most profound experience of my entire life. I can truly say that after the second baptism, I did indeed feel like a new creature. I felt the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost purge any anxiety and guilt out of my system. It took me many years to figure out exactly what happened but I now know and can attest to this event as the pinnacle in one’s spiritual life.
In regards to the comment about ‘they knew it not,.’ Elder Packer used this scripture justify his lack of spiritual experiences. In my 1973 edition of the triple combination, there is a footnote linking the ‘conversion’ described in 3 Nephi 9 to Helaman 5:45. This footnote was removed in the 1980 edition of the triple. There was a companion footnote in Helaman 5:45 which still points to the scripture in 3 Nephi. In any case this cannot be used to justify the gradual, imperceptible ‘sanctification.’ condoned by the leadership of the church today.
I had never considered the metaphysical ‘plasma’ connection. That one I will need to ponder. Great post.
Wow, what a post!! What comments! The ideas of the article sounded so right. I want to re-read those chapters again in the light of new insights.
To anyone who is interested in this topic, I just now re-discovered some posts of Spektator on this blog about the baptism of fire:
Baptized with fire and they knew it not?
and
Baptism with Fire and the Rejection of the Gospel.
Do I think there are people (LDS) who are trying their best to humble themselves and enter into a covenant to serve him; that there are those of us who are trying our dangdest to be purified and justified?
Sure. Which is telling. Nothing we do can ever justify, sanctify, or purify; therefore, trying harder and “raising the bar” will only lead to frustration in the matter. I mean, really this is how notions like “sanctification through service” come about.
Humility here is a key. At fourteen I was forced to be humble, to the point that I absolutely had nowhere else to turn (in my mind) except to either death or to “religion”. And I mean no where else to turn. The details in my case are not important, but it is not until a person feels they are the lowest loser at the absolute bottom of the world’s (Babylon’s) refuse pile, is their heart in a place where the Lord can work with it–to make it purified.
I think this type of humility is hard to achieve in our nice homes, where everyone loves us, and where we feel safe, and with our good educations that give us our nice jobs that we work so hard to excel at in order to be able to eat well, dress well, and to support and sustain our families, and with all kinds of friends to fall back on when we get into trouble, and with all our covenants, proud in the fact that we are “trying our dangdest” to do all the Lord has asked of us (except for maybe seeing ourselves in our own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth–to see ourselves as the losers we really are), week in week out.
I say us, because I include myself. “And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?” To which I answer “nay”. And I know exactly why.
I thank God for His timing and teaching. I had not read this article until He first inspired me to ask Him a certain question. The question was, “If I had the faith if Jesus Christ what would I be asking from you for my life?” I pray often and I ask for many things which I know are good things. But this time I paused and wondered what is it God would be wanting me to ask for.
Thank you LDSA. You have answered a very key question for me and I am sure for others.
I believe the doctrine of the post. I find no fault with it. I learned things which I had not known before. I sorrow that I did not. But having been raised in the LDS church it would have been very hard for me to learn them. But only now when I have stopped being enslaved by the apostate church is my mind and heart open to understand this doctrine and accept it without reservation.
I have a suggestion. The post needs to include at least the information you added in your second comment here. I have a very close friend who had his name removed from the records of the church some years ago. He to this day wonders if what he did was right. I said that must be an individual choice between you and God, and have not judged him for it. Now I can go to him and explain why it is imperative that all LDS stop believing the apostate doctrine now taught in the church and stop allowing themselves to be enslaved and damned even if just for this life or a portion of it by cleaving to this apostate organization.
Well now I have a question. It seems like Adam was pretty old when he had that experience. W C Skousen believed Adam was at this point about 60 years after the fall. So why did it take him so long? Was he making no progress a that point or what?
And regarding the sin of idolatry by Adam and Eve I believe they committed the sin of believing in the knowledge of Good and Evil as described in the templebook which can be found here. http://webspace.webring.com/people/np/potai/tempbook.pdf
I have been fasting and praying about this. I may be feeling like if I don’t have all the same blessing right now that others have I am not as good as they are.
The idea itself betrays the truth. The blessings of God do not come based upon our goodness, or our works. They come based upon His goodness and the works of Christ. I fell God has accepted my covenant and I have had many visitations of the Holy Ghost. But I have never seen a flame nor felt a burning as described. I have felt heat of the spirit and warmth. But I would not claim to have had fire or visible plasma.
I have been asking Father what do I lack yet? I have been searching myself, of what can I repent. But again that is LDS thinking as if I can be “righteous enough” to deserve a blessing from God.
But during the second day of fasting I thought I am feeling like i did when someone was telling me I had to repent. And after years of trying I realized there was nothing to repent of. My true repentance had been done when I sided with Christ much earlier in my life. The accusations were finding fault with qualities God wanted me to have. So efforts to repent of these qualities were fruitless.
I then remembered the feeling and assurance I had and continue to have that my actions, my heart does in fact please God. I know that. I have perfect peace about it. So when the time comes in God’s economy I will receive the fire baptism. I know in whom I have trusted. I know my Father. I will inherit the kingdom of God. I believe and I have been baptized. There is an idea that came to me that He may want my new wife to be converted to the same gospel I am before he sheds forth these blessing upon us.
At least I know He has inspired me to seek for the fire baptism. So I am sure He has one planned for me.
I loved this post. i had an experience with the baptism of fire…at least i think i did when i was in my teenage years. i was bearing testimony at a youth conference and while i was speaking i had this feeling of overwhelming joy come over me and things in the room got really bright for a second, the brightness went away but the feeling stayed for about an hour, and i can honestly say i had no more desire to do evil, i looked at people from a total new perspective that wasnt from me but i could tell i was recieving that perspective from something else, my eye was single to gods glory. the feeling only lasted for about an hour but the perspective stayed all day. i was shaking, and people told me i was on fire afterwards, but i think they meant it just as a figure of speech. it happened again just prior to my leaving on mission after a brother of mine helped me shake off the chains after i was terribly scared and confused after my first time through the temple.
i gave my farewell speech on the second coming and didnt prepare a lick i dont remember much of what i said but i remember that when i was done i was shaking and baling my head off, this wasnt a sad that i am leaving balling but it was a sorrow for sin that was causing it i felt truly broken hearted and like the world was going to cave in, but it subsided when i sat down and was comforted by the spirit. ive always remembered thoose experiences but i never knew how to classify them. idk if i even know how to now.
Its really hard studying the scriptures and then going out to teach people and all we teach people is the watered down gospel. ive seen what you guys are talking about where someone has an awesome spiritual experience prior to meeting us or on the first visit. One example is a family in my first area, the father had really good quesions all the time. he would read the doctorine and covenants and his quesions about the 3 kingdoms of glory were awesome buut my companion dashed his intrest in it complely by pulling out the chart. the one eternal “line” wasnt quite what he thought the d&c was saying but he just figured my comp new so he shouldnt question. i didnt know what to do, i new it was more than the way my comp was putting it, so i just told him that he needs to continue to think outside of the box. i felt terrible, thats not the only time its happened either.
Once we met a guy and we taught him the restoration and he loved it the spirit really hit him hard i could see it in his face, so we brought up the question of baptism and he said yes, then he said he wanted it this weekend. of course we had to reply with a well there are some things we need to teach you first……. he accepted and we started teaching him, he came to church and became active got baptized and hasnt been the same since… not in a good way hes a “perfect Member” according to my companion, but the spirit is not there at all not nearly like it used to be. after his baptism in my mission the new member gets a “new member kit” with a set of scriptures, gospel principles, true to the faith, strengeth for the youth, and some other stuff. it wasnt long before his scripture study was replaced by manual/scripture study, and now liahona conference edition study. his quesions have gotten weaker and weaker.
I dont know what to do in these kind of situations ive tried getting a little edgyer with the way i teach and try to stick to what the scriptures say, but is tough sometimes. im not saying i feel like im teaching false doctrine i just feel like there is much more to offer these people than what they are getting. ive had to correct my companions so many times in the middle of a lesson when they say such things as “the prophet is the only thing we can rely on” im just glad ive been there from time to time to correct the dogma.
but yeah any advice?….
First off, I would take any material provided by Church-distribution that you are instructed to teach with and throw it in the trash. If they ask what happened to your “such-and-such” manual or teaching aid — tell them you lost it. If they provide you with another one — throw it away too.
I would also say you should keep correcting false doctrine when someone attempts to teach it to investigators.
I’m sure there is more — but individual circumstances can be so varied and unique that provided advice from the other side of the world can be very limited.
ive already done that and ive been on mission for 10 months. in my mission theres this thing called apreach my gospel missionarry certificate, and every zone conference missionarrys get called up and “recieve their reward” . i decided with a determined resolution that i would never get one, i “lost” my pmg in my first area. it was a big uproar when i told my mission president that i didnt believe the white handbook or Pmg was going to determine my “success” and that pmg makes me feel pacified and lulled away when i read it. one long interview and several e mails later and now they are finaly getting off my back about me becoming a PMG missionarry. i find that much fasting and prayer causes people to respond much better to the gospel than hours of “skills training” ever could. i cant even put into words how disgusted ive become because of the new “statistical focus” in the mission……its nice to hear from you on this….thanks for the advice…..
It is interesting to note some of the commonalities in the descriptions of the experiences shared here. Here are some of the phrases and earmarks I have heard: yearning; soul-searching; soft, pliant hearts; brokenhearted; completely turned toward God; humility; new creature; sanctified; purified; purged of anxiety and guilt; as if a load had been lifted; overwhelming joy; visual brightness; clarity; no more desire to do evil; gift of new perspective on life and on other people; ability to see others as God would see them; eye single to God’s glory.
I have used terms similar to these to attempt to describe the experience through the years…I especially relate to the Elder above, in that though the initial experience goes away, the effects can linger on for days, weeks, months, and years. In my case, the gift of new perspective and love for others is what lingered on with me, and oh how beautiful that was. I would love nothing more than to have that back again!
Keep doin what the spirit indicates Elder. Thank you for sharing too. It really brings back so many memories. I wasn’t near as conscious at your age I dont think…but my mission was so extreme that it forced some pretty bold tendencies to the surface. I too resisted all the steps required to get the special pin they used to promote the memorization of the discussions in use at the time. Unlike you I never did state directly to the Pres. that I would not memorize them. But it was total secret combination within a secret combination and so I knew that my words to certain Elders worked their way to the Apes (A.P.s) The infamous Pres. Walker eventually rewarded me with the silly pin without me having done any of the requirements just to have me shut up about it so my attitude would not inspire other missionaries to start blowing him off too.
I got a tingle when I heard you correcting subtly your companion in front of and in a conversation with an actual “investigator”. The only thing I feel to advise is to continue in that vein. Be even less subtle and a little more bold all within the flow of the spirit of course. But let people know when they are on the right track as far as discovering Christ and let other missionaries know when they are in the wrong. If you don’t at least stand boldly…not with pride but firm….then they will proceed to “school” the generally humble people of South Africa and lead astray or keep from TRUTH in the way that only white guys in white shirts and ties can in this WORLD.
its really awesome to get your encouraging words… not much of that out here sometimes…. its not like im just bullheaded and dont want to do preach my gospel.. there are positive aspects to it… its just that when i read it i feel like im literaly beeing lulled into carnal security.. its a weird felling its hard to describe.. ….love you guys. talk to you next week
how would you suggest one develops such a desire?
tanner asked:
The first choice would be for one to simply exercise his/her will towards humility. However, some find not find that to be so simple.
So — secondly, if one does not seem able to humble themself before the Lord, then one’s circumstances could compel them to be humble. The poor Zoramites Alma was addressing in Alma 32 had been compelled to be humble by their poverty, for example.
Finally, if your circumstances do not cause you to be humble, and you cannot seem to muster the will to humble yourself before the Lord, then the gospel provides a set of tools or principles by which any man or woman could obtain humility:
Putting on whitened baptismal clothing is really a symbol associated with love along with cleaning being a seen signal involving putting on Christ as well as signing up for the latest way associated with living baptism gowns
Thank you for sharing your experience, I really enjoyed reading it. I would really like some advice/counsel myself. I am a fundamentalist mormon and first heard about the “baptism by fire” about 7 years ago from someone who became a very good friend. He experienced it himself and ultimately was excommunicated from the church. Anyway, after we heard his testimony we were all just so incredibly desirous to obtain this blessing ourselves.(We meaning myself, husband and about 15 others who he shared his testimony with) Since then, only 4 of our group have received it and it was very soon after hearing about it. The rest of us just continue to “try” the same as we have for years, and are still(well at least I am)just as desirous to fully repent and obtain a remission of my sins and yet I feel even more confused with how to go about it now than I did then. I know a lot of people who have received this gift and ask them “how, what did you do”? but what worked for them never works for me. I feel so discouraged. Do you think it’s possible that this gift is not for everyone? One of my best friends told me that she got the desire to repent, started confessing her sins, did some fasting and 1 month later she received the gift. I’ve been trying for 7 years! Anyway just wondering if you have any awesome words of counsel to offer;)
You might want to read the following blog posts. Perhaps you will find something that will be of help in your quest:
How to receive what you ask for
“…and the labor which they had to perform was to look…”
New thoughts on prayer
Also, these might be of help to show that angels and baptisms of fire go hand in hand:
The role of angels in Nephite preaching
The gift of tongues (part one)
The gift of tongues (part two): a Book of Mormon account
The plasma aspects of the First Vision and Moroni’s visits
Thank you mucho. I seem to be lost in An ldsanarchy vortex. Luckily I’m a speed reader, but there is so much to read! I keep switching from article to article, and my kids keep wanting me to stop and feed them! Breakfast lunch and dinner every day. I just finished reading your journal on your fast and told my kids they should try it so I can finish reading everything on this site! Shouldn’t take more than 40 days I hope. They didn’t go for it:/ Thanks again, I really appreciate everything I’ve read so far, whether I agree with it or not.
Lol. Please appologize to your kids on my behalf. It was never my intention to steal their mother away from them.
Btw, if you are going through the whole site, you might want to use the Blog Chronology page, which lists all articles in chronological order from every contributor. That way you get to see everyone’s progression of thought.
“As the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost.” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 149-150
I know a couple who have both received the baptism by fire and two of their grown children have as well. Neither one of the childrens experiences were nearly as intense. As a matter of fact I don’t even recall them mentioning fire. Although one did see the chains of hell and the veil etc… So my thoughts are that if your parent are born of the spirit and thus become the literal seed of Israel then any children born afterward would also be literal Israelites. Any thoughts on that? Also, I think it would be sweet if you set up a place, similar to where people can share their patriarchal blessings, but for people to share their conversion experience. I love hearing them and reading them so much myself and feel so inspired and compelled. Just an idea for us folks who haven’t received yet and need all the inspiration and compelling we can get.
liv435:
My thoughts — I don’t think that righteousness can be imputed in such a way — Ezekiel wrote:
I think something of the sort of unconditional nature you are describing could be said to apply to any and all children born — no matter what may be said of their parents:
But once sin is conceived in their hearts:
So — no matter what spiritual experiences may have happened in the life of a child’s parents — the experience must always be brought to life anew in that generation’s life as well. It can’t be carried on as the dead image of another person’s story.
therefore ought ye not to tremble?
for salvation cometh to none such
for the lord hath redeemed none such
yea
neither can the lord redeem such
for he cannot deny himself
Justin,
I was not suggesting that righteousness could be imputed by spiritual gifts the parents received. In the quote from Joseph Smith he stated the manner in which the Holy Ghost falls on the literal seed of Abraham. That would mean that being born as literal seed would automatically make the Holy Ghost work on one in this manner. All I was suggesting was that when two parents are changed into the literal seed (as Brother Joseph described) then their children would naturally be seed of Abraham as well. I, personally, do not think that the seed of Abraham is more righteous based solely on their lineage which is what you seem to be suggesting? The people I was speaking of both had to repent and they both wept and sorrowed. They both felt anguish and helpless. Repentance was not easy. However when the Holy Ghost did fall on them is was more serene than what their parents had experienced. And just a bit more info… The father of these two spent years telling the older one that he had not received the Holy Ghost because he didn’t see the fire. He thought it must have been something else. Not until sometime later did the Lord inform him that not everyone need have the same experience that he had. Sometimes, I think we just decide the way we believe and drive our stakes in and it can be tough to pull them out. I live by what Brother Joseph said that he never knew of a man condemned for believing too much but they are condemned for believing too little. My mind is wide open:)
That’s not what I meant to suggest.
I thought that when you wrote:
that you meant something different than,
which is the issue I was addressing.
Is your question concerning whether the visual plasma display of fire only accompanies the baptism of fire when the person is not by lineage a child of Abraham? And that repentant souls who are literal seed of Israel will not manifest the baptism of fire visually with the plasma display?
Justin,
Ya, pretty much. I live in a community where the gospel is preached in purity and a lot of my friends and family have received the Holy Ghost. I have not as of yet. So I’ve heard a lot of different experiences. My best friend said for the space of about 4 hours she could not stop shaking, crying, and sweating. She most definitely trembled, feared, and sorrowed. Then when the fire and Holy Ghost came she said it was so intense it almost hurt, yet not. I was with her when she went through it and the girl looked like a mess! She was so weak and quite disheveled,and she said the whole room was filled with fire, and she felt a “fire in her bones”. Very intense experience. So with the other two, I just thought it was odd that although they both had to offer a broken heart and contrite spirit, neither one saw fire or felt weak. They both described the experience as everything becoming clear and feeling a cleansing power. They were both told that their sins were forgiven as well. Obviously not nearly as intense an experience as most people I know. The only difference between them and the others is that they were born to parents who had already been born again. So I was just hypothesizing. I like to hypothesize;)